Relic or Russia: Who’s Rewriting History in Company of Heroes 2?

 

World War II was the first truly global conflict. Out of the ashes rose the first truly global economy, powered by bold new technology invented in war, but perfected in peace. Nearly 70 years later, this system enabled a small, award-winning Canadian studio called Relic Entertainment to create a video game about World War II and sell it in Russia. It also enabled angry Russian consumers to broadcast their complaints about the game on the internet for all to hear. And it allows me, sitting on a small island in the mid-Atlantic, to write for a site owned by a company in Los Angeles and tell you, wherever you are, what I think about the game and its many detractors.

The backlash against Company of Heroes 2 began on YouTube, with a scathing review by Russian entertainer TheBadComedian. Over the course of a 30-minute video, the comic provides a detailed, sarcastic critique of the game’s singleplayer campaign, which is marked by its depictions of brutal Red Army tactics. He also repeatedly compares the Relic development team to Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels.

As the video gained more hits and more attention, Russian gamers turned to the game’s “User Reviews” page on Metacritic, flooding it with 0/10 scores and angry complaints. “This game is full of lies, it corrupts the truth about greatest heroism of our grandparents,” wrote one. Another particularly irate gamer created an online petition, asking that the game be banned in the CIS, a group of countries that includes Russia and several other former Soviet republics.

The petition has over 18,000 signatures, but is still well short of its goal. As Game Front reported this week, however, leading CIS distributor 1C Softclub has stopped selling Company of Heroes 2 completely. TheBadComedian’s angry review seems to have gotten results.

Yesterday, Game Front published a statement from Relic and SEGA, the game’s publishers:

“SEGA and Relic are working closely with their Russian distribution partner Softclub 1C over claims concerning Company of Heroes 2 and the historical context of the game from a Russian perspective. Whilst investigations in to these concerns are ongoing we would like to express our regret at any offense caused to those affected by these claims.”

As the PR teams at SEGA and Relic circle the wagons, it’s worth considering: should Relic be blamed for misrepresenting history and slandering the Russian war effort, which expended huge amounts of blood and treasure during World War II and arguably did more to defeat Hitler than any other Allied power? Or are Russian gamers overreacting?

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70 Comments on Relic or Russia: Who’s Rewriting History in Company of Heroes 2?

Lirat

On August 9, 2013 at 11:13 am

Just to mention:

1. Katyn slaughter is still an unclear thing to talk about, because it’s more of a political myth then a historical fact. For example, there were only 1803 exhumed bodies, and the causes of deaths were unclear; the “document” signed by Stalin does not have an actual sign, yet there is a stamp, that did not exist at 1940; lists of killed poles contained people that were actually alive after WW2; poles were killed with german weapon; basis of the modern view on Katyn was designed by Goebbels in 1943, when it was clear that soviets will regain the Smolensk, to create another obsticle for soviet army – to show that soviets are enemies for poles. While the perspective of Katyn slaughter shown in Wikipedia if assumed official for western countries since the Cold War, it’s not a real fact, just the hypothesis. There are other hypothesises as well, yet they are not official by politics.

2. About the “epidemic of rape” – a complete myth, also made by Goebbels at the last days of Reich. It is quite understandable – remaining nazi troops would fight harder, if they fight against hordes of rapist monsters, that rape anyone from 8 to 80. And – with this propoganda in mind, most of civillians would join Berlin defenders. But, there was a clear order of Stalin (whos orders were fulfilled by the soviet people with extreme accuracy) to treat civillians with care and not to perform any sort of marauder action. And there is a clear logic in this order – Stalin wanted to capture Reichstag long before Allies come from the west, and it took all the power and all the hatred of soviet soldiers to do that last fight for victory. And if you allow soldiers to rape “millions” of civillian women, you’ll have nothing more then an uncontrollable bunch of rapists and marauders instead of army. Of course – there were women raped by conquers – as it always happen in war time, and there are bastards in any nation – but there were no “epidemic”.

A question 4 author:

I’ll assume, that you live in USA, mr Richardson, so please tell me, do your people study all the acts of american army in their mid school history courses? Like all the warcrimes, detailed justification of tourture acts in Guantanamo, the rapes of iraqian women, the support of talibian opium production during the war in Afganistan etc? Do you study that USA is not so free country was one of the last countries to cancel the slavery, and there are still living people that remember “white only” signs in the buses, while in the most of the world people were equal? I think not, yet I might mistake.

I just want to say, that when you study history at school, you generally study an idealized version of history – and its normal. We are people and we do make mistakes, but we want our students to notice better parts of us first. I mean, who would teach history like “we are decendants of people responsible for indean genocide”? So it’s unfair from you to advocate Relic by saying “Russian students were taught an idealized version of history”.

You see, I’m not even russian, but can explain it to you. My grandfather came from WW2 with a shard in his leg. His brothers died in that war and lay somewhere in unnamed grave. And my story – is a common story for CIS people. Everyone have someone who fought in WW2 and either came back a winner, most likely with some injuries, or didn’t come back at all. So this is not about idealized version of history. People are quite fine with cold war anti-soviet stamps that still occur in movies and games, that has nothing to do with reality and everyone understands it. But not this time, when Relic said that it represents history. This one is personal, for everyone here in CIS. And you cannot advocate it. Not because there are some ingame replics and minor acts of heroism. Not because there were warcrimes from everyone took partk in WW2. Not because Putin or whatever. It’s just personal. Nazi have not done any major damage to Europe nations, but jews and especially soviets, were exterminated without mercy. We do remember holocaust now, and noone makes jokes of it, yet even more soviet civillians were exterminated, then jews. Yet our grandfathers stopped nazis and destroyed them, made the major contribution into the victory, with a great cost and great courage. Thats actually the main reason of the anti-game protests.

So the current “crysis” is fully on Relics fault. Their disrespect or their lazyness in research – whatever. They should do something more than a simple excuse now.

PS Sorry for possible mistakes, I dont speak english good enough to make a statement without mistakes.

Chris

On August 9, 2013 at 11:59 am

They should make an Xpack about a Russian soldier.

On a serious note, Russia is butt hurt over this because they are fed an idealized version of WWII that makes it look like they won the war and didn’t get help from anyone. i you not, go look at any WWII documentary made in Russia. they don’t show ANY of the thousands of Sherman tanks we gave them, the millions of arms, none of it. they act like Russia won the war and everyone else play diversion or some .

I think that Relic made the right call, because the only real thing the eastern front has over the western front is that it was so brutal.

Hirmetrium

On August 9, 2013 at 12:13 pm

I disagree that the Polygon article is good. It’s terrible and lazy and doesn’t provide any real discussion points. It read as if they hadn’t played the game, whereas this article reads completely the opposite, a well thought out discussion and comparison.

I personally didn’t realise that there we’re civilians in those houses – I assumed they were empty and merely being denied to the enemy. Are you sure that was the case?

Lirat

On August 9, 2013 at 1:13 pm

2Chris
Allied support was 4% of overall needs, other 96% were producted in USSR. This support, as well, includes 4248 Sherman M4 tanks. By the way, most of Shermans were sent to Britain (over 17000), not to USSR. The main tank of the Eastern front was T34 (more than 33000 produced during war), because of its high durability in rough weather conditions, and balanced armor/power/speed combination. T34 was called the Tank of Victory, and most of movies are about him, yet there were plenty of other good tanks, including M4. But in soviet WW2 movies you can see Studebaker truck, and there are even war-time songs about or including Studebaker.

But, as I said, it was 4% overall, yet there were 5 times more german forces on the eastern front, then on the western (7500 divisions*months vs 1500 divisions*months) + 1 million kwantung army on the far east, that was completely destroyed by soviet army. So yes, USSR made the major contribution in defeating nazis. Soviet dont say, that they did it all alone, but the words “major contribution” shuold be mentioned.

Of course, we are greatful for shermans and matildas and valentines etc, and we never forget the help in fuel and ammunition. Nor we forget, that till the Normandy operation (1944) USA was supporting nazis with fuel and ammunition as well. And that US/UK forces attacked nazis directly only when nazis were completely failing against soviets, not when soviet people really needed that help.

I’d even say, that IF USA wouldn’t support nazis and IF Normandy operation happened 2 years earlier, when nazis stucked in USSR for the first time, there would be millions of civillians saved, and modern russians would say, that USSR won nazis with great help of allies. But that didn’t happen, so we have what we have. Fair enough.

Btw, most of US games and movies of WW2 shows that it was only US contribution in victory. May be with minor british help. And UK movies as well show that british people defeated Hitler, and other were just messing around. Its politics, you know…

Troika

On August 9, 2013 at 1:27 pm

What can I say?
You can mourn victims of your bombs all day and night – you won’t give them a penny. You may regret about genocide of native Americans, but still you won’t do anything to repay them guilt of your ancestors. You are permitted to pity third world countries, but your military will keep invading them and bringing “democracy” via bombs and missiles.
Your ostentatious and hypocritical Western self-reproach is very handy thing. You are not going to pay, so you can care for those you murdered as many times daily as you want. After all, you win in every conflict. No matter how many mistakes you did, at the end of the day you are victor and don’t have to repay anyone.
But for us Russians, it is matter of survival in war of propaganda. We lost everything in the end of Cold War, but some of us retain what cannot be taken away by force: pride for our land, people and history.
Nazis aren’t so scary anymore. They were defeated long time ago, now Germans praise exactly what you told them to praise. Russians, however, are yet to be conquered. Their country is broken, corrupted, lost his power, but they still refuse to reject their own beliefs, heroes and identity in order to embrace the role you grant them in your world. They are still your enemy. Thus you still depict them in manner you did in times of Cold War, when they were actually a threat to your world dominance. Do you seriously believe that all these Western studies on Katyn, on who actually started WWII, on raped German ladies and such were made to discover truth? No, I tell you – they are meant to make your population to believe we are depraved and should be restrained. Ultimately, the same lies should make us believe the same, that we should be put to jail as we aren’t essentially human beings.
Bringing out Katyn is MUST HAVE in each Soviet-condemning material (though you should know that Poles tortured much more Red Army soldiers to death beforehand), but the moment you pull out argument the whole article gets into the field of worthlessness. Human rights, bigots, yadda yadda. How should we, people who are not brain-bleached with Western tolerance religion, treat material which brings up sensitive liberal question of got rights simply because article is about abomination known as Russian people, and your average reader won’t get why they are so malicious if you don’t mention their rejection of homosexual “culture” and cult of homosexuality.
Do you know that all the “brave Russians” you mention in fact hate Russia and its population, as well as its history, with burning hatred? Do you have idea that such people will embrace any lie if it is rusophobic and anti-Soviet? Do you imagine person who hates his nation and only loves Western states? That’s who your average “brave Russian” actually is. Russia has world’s largest percentage of such people. Treat that as your victory, Westerners.
You view Putin as typical dictator you love to oppose so much. What you call “nationalism” is mere populism. Politicians use desires of Russian people to gather support. They don’t make Russians hate homosexuals or reject Western “truth” about their history. Actually it’s just other way round: they know that people do not accept perversions nor revisionism and simply pretend that they care. They ride wave of people’s preferences to rob the people and get away with it.
I am sure none of you is aware of his national policy which in fact made ethnic Russians defenseless in the face of barbaric migrants from Northern Caucasus. Russians are discriminated in their own state, so no wonder they are rightless in world’s media as well.
And final thoughts on subject: Relic were NOT motivated to show horrors of war. They were motivated to create game that would sell well. In order to appeal to Western consumer, it had to involve common stereotypes. No American would play a game where Americans are only shown as villains. No German would play a game about German atrocities.
But Russians are totally OK to dehumanize! They didn’t repent in their crimes, didn’t pay for their conquests, didn’t embrace religion of tolerance. Hell, they are still oppressing poor, poor gheys! So why don’t we make them ultimate villains in our game. It would sell well, any ghey will be happy to buy game which depicts his oppressors in the negative way.
“Equality for all except of Russians, Russians”, remember?

Lirat

On August 9, 2013 at 1:28 pm

Blitzkrieg was about extremely fast advancing into soviet territory. So nazis were not bothered in taking short term advantage of peasants houses. The mission of blocking the roads would be reasonable, but not burning your own houses, nobody whould do that.

And yes, there were people inside, there are animations of burning civillians running out. Point is – there were many civillians, who was left behind enemy line – because of blitzkreig, millions of people. West of USSR was very populated. And their life under german occupation was hell on earth, 12 million were killed by nazis. And Relic blames soviets in that civillian genocide.

It’s like me blaming emergency and police of New York, that they were not saving victims of 9-11, but that police and emergency were actually slaughtering everyone in WTC right before the planes crushed. Its not funny at all.

Lirat

On August 9, 2013 at 1:30 pm

2Chris
Allied support was 4% of overall needs, other 96% were producted in USSR. This support, as well, includes 4248 Sherman M4 tanks. By the way, most of Shermans were sent to Britain (over 17000), not to USSR. The main tank of the Eastern front was T34 (more than 33000 produced during war), because of its high durability in rough weather conditions, and balanced armor/power/speed combination. T34 was called the Tank of Victory, and most of movies are about him, yet there were plenty of other good tanks, including M4. But in soviet WW2 movies you can see Studebaker truck, and there are even war-time songs about or including Studebaker.

But, as I said, it was 4% overall, yet there were 5 times more german forces on the eastern front, then on the western (7500 divisions*months vs 1500 divisions*months) + 1 million kwantung army on the far east, that was completely destroyed by soviet army. So yes, USSR made the major contribution in defeating nazis. Soviet dont say, that they did it all alone, but the words “major contribution” should be mentioned.

Stalinizator

On August 9, 2013 at 1:39 pm

What a hypocrit you are Chris, like majority of westerners.
To start with – idealized version of WW2 was in CoH, but since it was about cute americans, brave british and noble Nazis this was more than fine. This game is purely rusophobic, nobody expected an idealized version, because we know westerners are unable to make Russian a compliment except if Russian is destroying his country, then he’ll be patted on his shoulder and said : “good boy”. Nobody expected such degree of manipulations of facts, falsifications of facts, exaggeration of facts and plainly a ty rusophobic story about a good jew surrounded by Russian cattle and nkvd butchers.
Speaking of Shermans, did not you americans take back everything that was not destroyed after war, if Soviet Union was to keep smth, it had to pay for it. Thus we physically cant show thousands of Shermans, for we have probably a couple in museums, hell knows if they are able to move or not, want to see Shermans, Valentines and so on – watch wartime newsreels. But I love the argument about documentaries. I watched one American. It was superb, they showed weapons of all time, and showed Ak47 (hurray) and a mortar – which is a Russian invention and to show a mortar they showed a picture of Nazis around a mortar. Of course they intentionally did not show anything of non western origin in this supposed to be neutral programme. But the only Russian invention – a mortar, could not be supplied with a photo of Russians with a mortar.
Millions of arms… ahem. What arms? I hope it was a bad joke. Resourses – yes, arms – no way.
Willis jeep and studebekker trucks are always heroes of 80% of soviet movies aswell as american canned meat. Planes are not, but its difficult to see real soviet wartime planes in movies, so its hard to expect cobras or hurricanes.
Soviet Union did win the war, like you or not. And Soviet Union was not in position when it could trust its allies, for these allies favoured Hitler all previous years. And do not even mention your wonderful excuse – Molotov-Ribbentrop, for it was after the allies refused to oppose Hitler. They didn’t even attack Hitler when one of the allies was attacked, what a joke.
Relic made a right call for fascists and hypocrits like you. But its nothing new to see a westerner who favours fascism, you always were as you seek of how to keep your dominating position over majority of our planets population as you are getting weaker, its written in core of your brains. That’s why you can not judge logically, you support Nazis, for they represent west, you would believe Nazi propaganda that was repeated by Relic. (where is a single Nazi crime in CoH Opposing fronts or tales of valor, no, germans did no crimes, they were wonderful people, so even Lev Abramovich Isakovich who has 99% chance of dying under their noble rule stands on Nazis side, and then on Armia Krajowa side, who were only slightly better in matter of anti-Semitism than germans. the whole story is absolute nonsense, but westerners can not analyze and see such obvious things like a jew supporting Nazis is sort of … strange, not for a brainwashed westerner though, watch Canadian movie The Poet, SSman in love with rabbis daughter, watch movie – A Good German, where the same story repeats, NAZIS LOVED JEWS, western propaganda says, and what happens in the same movie The Poet : soviet partisans are hunting jews in Poland in year 1940. There were no soviet partisans there then or if they were – those were polish communists and most likely they were of JEWISH origin, for the only thing in damned Europe except emigration to Palestine that could save jews back then was being a commie, rich jews though could emigrate to more comfortable places, but anyway. You are being brainwashed, you probably even understand it, but for you are being brainwashed in the way you like, look those lousy Russians are depicted as scum, not like noble germans who did not start the war and committed no crimes). Game is cheapest kind of propagandistic crap. I wonder if the biggest problem with the movie Brothers War was that it was shot like crap, not that soviets are depicted as freaks, killing poles as usual, sure, its a soviet habit. Germans had 3 operations of extermination of civilian poles in Poland right after they captured it, excluding Katyn, for its now blamed on USSR without any proper evidence just because its politically necessary for our trueful American friends to depict USSR as evil and to turn poles against USSR for Poland was in our sphere, its how things are being done in our lawful democratic world, also exclude antipartisan punitive operations allover the eastern Europe, when Nazis burnt villages and executed all their population, or enslaved them and sent to Germany if they were kind that day. Game is very trueful indeed, especially when you compare the sequel to addons with cute and noble Nazis.

Stalinizator

On August 9, 2013 at 1:40 pm

What a hypocrit you are, like majority of westerners.
To start with – idealized version of WW2 was in CoH, but since it was about cute americans, brave british and noble Nazis this was more than fine. This game is purely rusophobic, nobody expected an idealized version, because we know westerners are unable to make Russian a compliment except if Russian is destroying his country, then he’ll be patted on his shoulder and said : “good boy”. Nobody expected such degree of manipulations of facts, falsifications of facts, exaggeration of facts and plainly a ty rusophobic story about a good jew surrounded by Russian cattle and nkvd butchers.
Speaking of Shermans, did not you americans take back everything that was not destroyed after war, if Soviet Union was to keep smth, it had to pay for it. Thus we physically cant show thousands of Shermans, for we have probably a couple in museums, hell knows if they are able to move or not, want to see Shermans, Valentines and so on – watch wartime newsreels. But I love the argument about documentaries. I watched one American. It was superb, they showed weapons of all time, and showed Ak47 (hurray) and a mortar – which is a Russian invention and to show a mortar they showed a picture of Nazis around a mortar. Of course they intentionally did not show anything of non western origin in this supposed to be neutral programme. But the only Russian invention – a mortar, could not be supplied with a photo of Russians with a mortar.
Millions of arms… ahem. What arms? I hope it was a bad joke. Resourses – yes, arms – no way.
Willis jeep and studebekker trucks are always heroes of 80% of soviet movies aswell as american canned meat. Planes are not, but its difficult to see real soviet wartime planes in movies, so its hard to expect cobras or hurricanes.
Soviet Union did win the war, like you or not. And Soviet Union was not in position when it could trust its allies, for these allies favoured Hitler all previous years. And do not even mention your wonderful excuse – Molotov-Ribbentrop, for it was after the allies refused to oppose Hitler. They didn’t even attack Hitler when one of the allies was attacked, what a joke.
Relic made a right call for fascists and hypocrits like you. But its nothing new to see a westerner who favours fascism, you always were as you seek of how to keep your dominating position over majority of our planets population as you are getting weaker, its written in core of your brains. That’s why you can not judge logically, you support Nazis, for they represent west, you would believe Nazi propaganda that was repeated by Relic. (where is a single Nazi crime in CoH Opposing fronts or tales of valor, no, germans did no crimes, they were wonderful people, so even Lev Abramovich Isakovich who has 99% chance of dying under their noble rule stands on Nazis side, and then on Armia Krajowa side, who were only slightly better in matter of anti-Semitism than germans. the whole story is absolute nonsense, but westerners can not analyze and see such obvious things like a jew supporting Nazis is sort of … strange, not for a brainwashed westerner though, watch Canadian movie The Poet, SSman in love with rabbis daughter, watch movie – A Good German, where the same story repeats, NAZIS LOVED JEWS, western propaganda says, and what happens in the same movie The Poet : soviet partisans are hunting jews in Poland in year 1940. There were no soviet partisans there then or if they were – those were polish communists and most likely they were of JEWISH origin, for the only thing in damned Europe except emigration to Palestine that could save jews back then was being a commie, rich jews though could emigrate to more comfortable places, but anyway. You are being brainwashed, you probably even understand it, but for you are being brainwashed in the way you like, look those lousy Russians are depicted as scum, not like noble germans who did not start the war and committed no crimes). Game is cheapest kind of propagandistic crap. I wonder if the biggest problem with the movie Brothers War was that it was shot like crap, not that soviets are depicted as freaks, killing poles as usual, sure, its a soviet habit. Germans had 3 operations of extermination of civilian poles in Poland right after they captured it, excluding Katyn, for its now blamed on USSR without any proper evidence just because its politically necessary for our trueful American friends to depict USSR as evil and to turn poles against USSR for Poland was in our sphere, its how things are being done in our lawful democratic world, also exclude antipartisan punitive operations allover the eastern Europe, when Nazis burnt villages and executed all their population, or enslaved them and sent to Germany if they were kind that day. Game is very trueful indeed, especially when you compare the sequel to addons with cute and noble Nazis.

Sorry if it would be doubleposted.

Troika

On August 9, 2013 at 1:45 pm

Why game portrays Russian soldiers like that? Because Russians are politically acceptable target in West. Because Cold War still goes on in some aspects, mainly in aspect of propaganda. Because Russians are yet to be forced to swallow whatever West wants them to believe. Because even you prove that so well, ass-pulling argument about poor oppressed where it has nothing to do with topic.
You can reside in showy self-reproach about people your state murdered, because nobody is going to make you pay for them. But we Russians have no such luxury. Revisionism is always aimed at destroying our pride, our identity, and taking away what we have. That’s why we oppose any anti-Russian and anti-Soviet information. True or not, it only serves to deny us what we have left.

P.S. Putin hates ethnic Russians, he made them defenseless against barbaric migrant gangs from Northern Caucasus. He is not one willing to make Russia strong, nor he is a threat to West. He is just a biggest leech on body of agonizing country.

AJ_Alex

On August 9, 2013 at 1:46 pm

Why are you western people trying to add LGBT to every event in Russia??!
Here in Russia nobody cares your orientation if you dont show it.
There is two main opposing groups the LGBT-activists and religious activists, and the most of russians consider them idiots. They making only noise and wacky performances that you see and nothing else.

And why every time you remember Katyn? Nothing else can come up with something? Why when speaking about Poland nobody trys to remember about more than 80 000 russian soldiers, who died in polish concentration camps as slaves in 1919-1920?
Why, for better historical accuracy in COH-1, dont add bombing of Dresden or Hiroshima and Nagasaki, cause it seems Relic likes civilians who burn in their own houses.
We were hoping to to see the game about our heroes, and not a mess of war crimes and myths about the Soviet Union.

Curity

On August 9, 2013 at 2:15 pm

Hello there dudes and dudettes. It’s the ‘irate gamer’ that ‘d started a petition speaking.
I would like to add a little something-something to the story above, k?

Let’s look a bit back, just before the storm ‘d hit the fans.

The gamer community asked the dev team whether the story is totally fictional or not. We (the 18k people that signed the petition) could understand the certain exaggerations for the plot thing if they say it’s fictional.

It was Noun as the voice of the Relic Ent. to tell that the story is ‘historically authentical’, ‘historically balanced’, ‘true’ and so on. It was Noun that got a lot of reasonable people banned for the nice and clean topics on why the game isn’t fine. It was noun to get the multiplayer gameplay on the ‘trollproof’ lockdown. And it was the same damn Noun to add insult to injury with his trolling reply for anyone raging.

All the community asked for was a disclaimer about the story being fictional and an official ‘sorry’ message from the dev team. What did we get? An insult.

The petition is not the act of anger. it’s not about hatred. It’s about to make Relic Ent. realize how wrong they are, picturing soviet people ultimately evil or stupid with ‘clean and nice Germans’. We keep trying to contact Relic and SEGA even now, but they simply don’t respond.

You can’t imagine the impact of this story on the people here in Russia. We thought that the West was on a friendly side. We’ve believed in the Relic Ent. as the authors of Warhammer DoW series. Now all that lies in ruins.

All this rage you witness is a reaction on the devs unfairness and ignorance. It is an answer for all those who shows up aggression in the comments, telling ‘you were just as bad as nazis that time’. It is a call for naming modern Russians as mindless and manipulated husks.

And it’s just a beginning.

Please, help western people understand that they should quit the Cold War stereotype thinking prior to painting anyone’s past in black or white. Other than that… Really, I don’t know what happens next.

Thanks for reading, and, hopefully, understanding.

Curity

On August 9, 2013 at 2:25 pm

Hello there dudes and dudettes. It’s the ‘irate gamer’ that ‘d started a petition speaking.
I would like to add a little something-something to the story above, k?

Let’s look a bit back, just before the storm ‘d hit the fans.

The gamer community asked the dev team whether the story is totally fictional or not. We (the 18k people that signed the petition) could understand the certain exaggerations for the plot thing if they say it’s fictional.

It was Noun as the voice of the Relic Ent. to tell that the story is ‘historically authentical’, ‘historically balanced’, ‘true’ and so on. It was Noun that got a lot of reasonable people banned for the nice and clean topics on why the game isn’t fine. It was noun to get the multiplayer gameplay on the ‘trollproof’ lockdown. And it was the same damn Noun to add insult to injury with his trolling reply for anyone raging.

All the community asked for was a disclaimer about the story being fictional and an official ‘sorry’ message from the dev team. What did we get? An insult.

The petition is not the act of anger. it’s not about hatred. It’s about to make Relic Ent. realize how wrong they are, picturing soviet people ultimately evil or stupid with ‘clean and nice Germans’ along.

We keep trying to contact Relic and SEGA even now, but they simply don’t respond.

You can’t imagine the impact of this story on the people here in Russia. We thought that the West was on a friendly side. We’ve believed in the Relic Ent. as the authors of Warhammer DoW series. Now all that lies in ruins.

All this rage you witness is a reaction on the devs unfairness and ignorance. It is an answer for all those who shows up aggression in the comments, telling ‘you were just as bad as nazis that time’. It is a call for naming modern Russians as mindless and manipulated husks.

And it’s just a beginning.

Please, help western people understand that they should quit the Cold War stereotype thinking prior to painting anyone’s past in black or white. Other than that… Really, I don’t know what happens next.

Thanks for reading, and, hopefully, understanding.

Ethan H.

On August 9, 2013 at 3:59 pm

Stalinizator, I think you’re the one who is brainwashed because you said that we favored Hitler before the war, LOL!!!!!!! Last time I checked THE SOVIET UNION MADE A PACT WITH HITLER AND HELPED HIM INVADE POLAND WHICH STARTED THE WAR IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!! You helped Hitler conquer a country that had done you no wrong simply to get more territory. Hitler gave you half of Poland, but when the war started for reasons I cannot fathom the Allies chose not to declare on the Soviets even though they helped start the war. When Hitler invaded the USSR they took your capital within 5 months which is comparable to his conquest of France which in all honestly is pathetic. Stalin pretty much came begging to the Allies on hands and knees to help them even though they helped start the war. And for reasons I can’t fathom we gave you supplies and ammunition when we should have left you to your fate and let the Germans trample all over your so-called “Army” which was the most poorly-trained and ill-equipped Army that fought for the Allies. The only reason you won at Stalingrad was because you had more “soldiers” to sacrifice than the Germans did, had the winter season on your side, and the rest of the Allies helped take some of the pressure off the USSR by invading North Africa and Italy. While we were fighting in those places Stalin still kept ing that we weren’t doing enough and we should be fighting in France. The only reason you made it to Berlin before Patton did was because we had to fight in North Africa and Italy before fighting across France. Oh yeah, where were you guys when we were fighting the Japanese. I mean the Aussies and British helped us there why didn’t you. Overall, the USSR did not win the war they helped start it and then took credit for ending it, real heroic rusky.

CrniZEC

On August 9, 2013 at 5:17 pm

@Chris go to school. Russia did won the war. Russia broke eastern front and first marched into Berlin. While US had the most idiotic attack in mankind history where they sacrifised 80% of troops for ing nothing. WW2 was won by russians and partizans. Russians defetead nazis, Balkan partizans were fighting three wars, one against ustashas, second against italy and third against nazis, and they manage to force nazic on retreat and they totaly destroyed italy army on balkan soil, and after that Tito went in personal war against Pavelic, the right hand of Musolini and left hand of Hitler. Bitain in meantime did 2 genocides, one in which 60 000 people were killed (long story), but Cherchil allowed that genocides, second where few thousands were killed on Egypt soil. In both were just civilians. Nazis were whiting 5 allied states with no problem and they were advancing, until russians and balkan partizans didnt get involved themself. Go to school m8. Why you think developers in every game shos Britain and Americans as heroes and they do not show number of genocides those country did on civilians?! Because while allies were concerned how to show they won ww2 partizans and russians took all german science reaserching. Thats why russians got first in space, and that’s why Yugoslavia built after that a spaceshuttle that she sold to Kenedy so Americans could g ointo space, Because Yugoslavia was third war force, the one that manage to keep the line between russians and americans on cold level. So you two do not the whole world. Learn the history, sometimes truth is to heavy for kids that play games, knowing that their country did kill 60 000 civilians just for fun isn’t funny at all, knowing that Churchil the biggest war hero was psychopat responsible for 2 genocides doesn’t throw good picture on Allied forces, knowing that one Germany was wining 5 allied states is even more emberessing.

Chris

On August 9, 2013 at 5:24 pm

@Stalinizator I dont know if your a troll or not because of your name. im going to assume not, but you should know that, based on your argument, you name is the equivlant of me naming myself Hitlerizator

ANYWAY, The original CoH had depictions of soldiers getting lost in war and gunning down running soldiers, but never in WWII did the Western front have the brutality of the Eastern front. Its a simple fact. Now, im not counting german concentration camps in this, as this was not something done to soldiers, so its not a this front or that front thing.

We did take back the war equipment (including guns you ), but you seem to missing the point. Throughout WWII, Russia never showed propaganda on the help it was getting. Any reel showing tanks showed only russian tanks. despite the fact that the majority of your tanks were actually shermans. a good chunk of your arms were from the US, because our factories didnt get blown to .

Russia didnt “win the war” it was the biggest group effort in history. if the US hadnt entered, if britian had fallen, the russians would not have had the supplies to take on the germans, even after the winter. it was the British being Royal Bad-ass’s, the US keeping them and you supplied, and you punishing the germans after the winter that led to the germans having to fallback.

Russia couldnt trust it allies? You ignorant , the Germans TRAINED IN RUSSIA. your country literally helped germans break the treaty signed after WWI by allowing them to train troops inside your border were the west couldn’t stop them. Then YOU (Russia) literally Butt ed Poland with Germany and split the country in half. And some polish say the Russian half was treated worse than the German half. Then you got ed when Germany pulled and 180 and decided you were next.

Not all Germans hated the jews. There are many journal entries, videos, and documented cases of German civilians and soldiers helping jews either escape detection or hiring them from caps as extra labor while instead feeding them. The Die-hard nazis (who ran the camp) regularly had to to discipline many soldiers because they should sympathy for jews. There is more history here, but it would take too long a post to get into. Im not saying the Nazi’s were good guys, but not all of them were complete s.

@Troika You need to be historically accurate to have pride though. The US has done some ed up . We bombed japan with two nukes, had the worst version of slavery in history (look as Roman Slavery for a “good” version) and pretty much stole texas from mexico. But acknowledgeing that past makes a country stronger. Germany today looks at its past and makes one hell of an effort to never relive it. meanwhile in Russia your outlawing Homosexuality, when the rest of the world is moving forward. Stand up and fight, otherwise your going to see the rest of the world slowly turn their back on your country, and then everyone really will see only the bad.

@Curity yea bioware did the same thing when people hated on the ME3 ending. Although in this case, despite taking all the worst things from the eastern front, it is technically historically accurate, and id also agree that they dont owe anyone an apology.

As for the clean Germans, the Germans really did do warfare in WWII cleanly. the real warcrimes wasnt even in PoW camps, where most soldiers (including blacks) were treated fairly (though blacks still got verbal abuse). As for the concentration camps, i dont really see how you shoehorn that into a battle? maybe make a scenario where you attack one? Although most of them were empty by the time soldiers got there.

CrniZEC

On August 9, 2013 at 5:30 pm

Russia did won the war. Russia broke eastern front and first marched into Berlin. While US had the most idiotic attack in mankind history where they sacrifised 80% of troops for ing nothing. WW2 was won by russians and partizans. Russians defetead nazis, Balkan partizans were fighting three wars, one against ustashas, second against italy and third against nazis, and they manage to force nazic on retreat and they totaly destroyed italy army on balkan soil, and after that Tito went in personal war against Pavelic, the right hand of Musolini and left hand of Hitler. Bitain in meantime did 2 genocides, one in which 60 000 people were killed (long story), but Cherchil allowed that genocides, second where few thousands were killed on Egypt soil. In both were just civilians. Nazis were whiting 5 allied states with no problem and they were advancing, until russians and balkan partizans didnt get involved themself. Go to school m8. Why you think developers in every game shos Britain and Americans as heroes and they do not show number of genocides those country did on civilians?! Because while allies were concerned how to show they won ww2 partizans and russians took all german science reaserching. Thats why russians got first in space, and that’s why Yugoslavia built after that a spaceshuttle that she sold to Kenedy so Americans could go into space and we do not have ww3 because of angry americans with no techs. Because Yugoslavia was third war force, the one that manage to keep the line between russians and americans on cold level for world safety. So you two do not the whole world. Learn the history, sometimes truth is too heavy for kids that play games, knowing that their country did kill 60 000 civilians just for fun isn’t funny at all, knowing that Churchil the biggest war hero was psychopat responsible for 2 genocides doesn’t throw good picture on Allied forces, knowing that one Germany was winning 5 allied states is even more emberessing. Knowing that Cherchil voted on election for Musolini is even worste because he personaly fueled ww2, for giving right to fascist to be elected. And those few tanks that allied forces sent to russians, yeah… they couldn’t drive at all on such low temperature and russia needed to built their own after with people that worked for free, guns you gave to russians couldn’t work on such low temperature so they also needed to create new ones. And they created one of the scariest machine gun in the world. Only help that helped a little was food from allies, everything else was rubbish and uselles . Russia did won the war started with one rifle on 3 man. And end it with tanks, ppsh of their own manufacturing.

joke the doog

On August 9, 2013 at 6:50 pm

on the one hand yeah, in the beginning of Barbarossa the Russians were so disorganized from Stalin’s purging of the officer ranks (where the core of trotsky’s power lay) that entire divisions were surrounded and surrendered in the first six months, but on the other hand, it’s not like they aren’t hardcore as all hell for what they went through. I mean, there are tons of battles that will never go down in written history because there were so many and so destructive.

I don’t really know how effective Allied support was for the USSR. I mean, Lend-lease had some effect, but they trudged through the North Atlantic and Scandinavian waters, where the siege of Leningrad took place. They got ty tech like Lee Grant tanks, and tons of trucks, which was useful logistically (hell, the Germans used horses and donkeys from 39 all the way to 45). They called Spam “The Second Front” because there was no second front anywhere else yet. In 1943 the Battle of Kursk occurred, and after that battle, Germany was so brutally wounded they never took the offensive again in Russia, almost a year before D-Day. They invented the AK47 from captured german weaponry. All this while the USA and UK farted around in North Africa.

I really need to read more on the effectiveness of Lend-Lease to figure out whether or not we really were that big a help to the USSR though,

Astore

On August 9, 2013 at 8:56 pm

@Chris
Chris, I would like to discuss some of your speech, if you don’t mind.

Russia couldnt trust it allies? – It definitely couldn’t. Sinews of Peace, which actually shouted:”We have defeated Nazis, and the Soviets are our next target!” Operation “Unthinkable” – a surprise attack on the Soviet forces right after War? Yes, you may say it was not accepted as a plan, but hey – how can you trust an ally which immediately thinks about stabbing you in the back right after JOINT VICTORY?

the Germans TRAINED IN RUSSIA – When? 1922-1933. Who? 3% оf pilots, 3% of tank crewmen. And only 280 officers from many thousands more. Nobody “famous” here. No Guderian, no Rommel, no Göring .

Throughout WWII, Russia never showed propaganda on the help it was getting. – Maybe, that is because you tried to turn us into the main enemy? You won’t propagate that I helped you right after I declared that you are my main adversary, will you?

Germany today looks at its past and makes one hell of an effort to never relive it – but, unfortunately, they fail. And looking around, I am now more than sure that those ideas are invulnerable…

The US has done some ed up . We bombed japan with two nukes, had the worst version of slavery in history (look as Roman Slavery for a “good” version) and pretty much stole texas from mexico. But acknowledgeing that past makes a country stronger. Germany today looks at its past and makes one hell of an effort to never relive it. meanwhile in Russia your outlawing Homosexuality, when the rest of the world is moving forward. Stand up and fight… – double controversy, You acknowledge, that YOUR country had done a lot of *SHWOOP*, but this makes it strong. Our country, with help of yours, crushed down one of the greatest foes ever – but we are baddies after all.
And how the hell the dislike of homosexuality is connected to this topic? If you want to know, how it really looks – check up the Near East. I am more than sure that an execution is far worse than any beating.

the Germans really did do warfare in WWII cleanly. the real warcrimes wasnt even in PoW camps, where most soldiers (including blacks) were treated fairly (though blacks still got verbal abuse). As for the concentration camps, i dont really see how you shoehorn that into a battle? maybe make a scenario where you attack one? Although most of them were empty by the time soldiers got there. – Wrong again. Ask the people of Belorussia about the “clean Germans”. Just try it. I’ll even pay your hospital bill, if you try.
Fairly? In concentration camps? Sorry, but you are ignorant. Buchenwald. Auschwitz. Dachau.
There were THOUSANDS of people, who were mutilated there. Burned alive. Shot. Experimented on.
Just again, try to visit at least one of them. And imagine, that every place had seen at least million of brutal deaths. And then, tell those, whose grandparents/parents perisherd there about “fair treat”.

I am looking forward to hearing from you.

NB.

Quinsec

On August 9, 2013 at 10:07 pm

While Relic is guilty of creating an over-the-top version of the Eastern Front, some seemingly pointless things included – Russia is repeatedly guilty of whitewashing the “Great Patriotic War.”

Yes, Soviet soldiers did most of the heavy lifting in WW2 Europe – however, the war itself pitted one evil regime against another. Yes, the Americans and Brits had their faults in the war, but the Soviet Union allied itself with Nazi Germany and simply found itself betrayed. Having signed the Nazi-Soviet Pact, the Soviet Union invaded the Baltic States, Finland, and Poland. The Soviet Union supplied Germany with oil, as well. Stalin deported “disloyal” populations to the east. The Soviets massacred Polish officers after occupying the Eastern half of their country. Soviet soldiers raped women across Eastern Europe as they “liberated” countries, (most of which aren’t so thrilled about their liberation, as it meant postwar occupation.) Those actions are hardly heroic.

I think we, in the West, do take a little too much credit for defeating Hitler. I agree that our Italian, African, and even Western Front campaigns through France only hastened the end of Hitler’s regime while he was already losing to the Red Army. The Russian people suffered terribly in the war – and their sacrifice should be remembered and honored.

I think what is important to do is differentiate between the Soviet command and the people. The government and officers of the Soviet Union repeatedly committed crimes against humanity. However, the Russian people paid the price of defeating Hitler in blood and suffering – for which humanity owes a great debt.

khodak

On August 9, 2013 at 11:11 pm

>> As for the clean Germans, the Germans really did do warfare in WWII cleanly. the real warcrimes wasnt even in PoW camps, where most soldiers (including blacks) were treated fairly (though blacks still got verbal abuse).

What a wrong statement! For general education:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_Soviet_POWs

Troika

On August 9, 2013 at 11:48 pm

@Chris

Are you serious about “fact” that MAJORITY of Red Army’s tanks were Shermans?
On topic of pride, yeah, sure. You are in position to openly admit your war crimes, because nobody is going to punish you or make you pay for them. But not in case of Russia. If we surrender our ideological grounds, what is left of country will be torn apart.
Still, I do not believe that all Western studies on Katyn/rape of German ladies/GULAG/whatever are meant to discover truth. No, they aim at dehumanizing the enemy in eyes of citizens. It actually worked, and now starts working in CIS as well. I know not a single person here who believes Western viewpoint on his own history. All of such people hate their motherland and its population. They joyfully swallow any negative information about USSR or Russia, be it truth or lie.
Don’t lie that repentance may make any country stronger.
Germany was denied right to be proud of yourself and was forced to embrace your values. You can make it dance to your tune now, Germany is just another puppet of yours. And what are Germans without pride? Oppressed by migrants whom they let in their country so happily and not allowed to fight back.
I see no reason for whole nation to tolerate homosexuals. You have to understand that it’s ordinary Russians who hate . Politicians merely use that to gain support.
Now, when you speak of Reich’s “clean” methods, I am sure you know nothing. Germans on Western front were told that they are fighting civilized Europeans; ones going to the East were sure they are going to face subhuman cattle. Hence mass slaughter of Soviet civilian population. Or you think that it was NKVD who burned villages to ashes and killed app. 10 million Soviet villagers? No wonder you call this game’s plot “accurate”.

@ Quinsec

Don’t pull that “evil regime vs evil regime” excuse again. Britain had colonies all around the world, with ethnic purges and concentration camps. USA carries on with this legacy. USA supplied both Reich and Soviet Union, hoping regimes to weaken each other and invade victor after war is over. Britain let Nazis occupy state under their protectorate, and earlier, surrendered Czechoslovakia to them.
You are so concerned about Katyn that I bet you’re Pole. You gotta know that Poles captured and tortured to death much more Red Army soldiers and officers in Soviet-Polish war of early 20s.
Rapes did occur, true. And it’s also true that rapists were executed for their violations of civilians.
But you probably don’t know how many German and French women American “liberators” humped? Indeed, many of them regarded war as sex trip. Their case was hardly understandable, their country was not ravaged by Nazi hordes. They had no reason to hate Germans, and totally no reason to hate French. Still, Americans committed much more acts of sexual violence than Soviets.
Do not contrapose Soviet people and Soviet command, as you won’t do in case of American or British soldiers and their superiors. You won’t say that Brits won IN SPITE of Churchill no matter what latter did.

Evgeniy

On August 10, 2013 at 12:52 am

@Chris Another american, raised on ty propagandic american history. USSR did win the war, Western front was opened after american, feared of nazis, opened it’s eyes and noticed russian soldiers going through Europe saving it from nazi invasion, so they decide to show themselves in the end of the war, when nobody needed them already.
You cannot judge russian soldiers or Stalin. It was a bloody freaking massacre, that nazis started action suddenly, when no one expected. So you don’t got the point. You never see the heroism of our soldiers, sacrifice their own lives for saving USSR and Europe. Your relatives didn’t get killed in action. So go listen to the Western propagandic , that only can be acceptable for mentally retarded dumbasses. Like you for sure.

Luhansk

On August 10, 2013 at 1:23 am

Who know better the history, we, who lived with the real veterans of eastern front (and some still live) or a studio that is located in half of the world away from Russia and took their information from a fantasy books in Vancuver library?

Would an american like a game in Korea or Vietnam where the so called heroism is to rape women, kidnapp kids, drive them with a tank, burn villages with napalm in the morning, and all of this will be said “historical accurate”? i think no.

FatMob

On August 10, 2013 at 2:37 am

The author states, that in the Soviet Union and since it’s fall, young students were taught biased history about the unquestionable heroism of a soviet soldier. Totally wrong.
Right after the fall of the SU the historians, with governmental support, started digging up facts of soviet atrocities and totally forgetting about their heroism. The whole history books and history lessons in schools looked like an average CoH2 cutscene. The TV series like “Shtrafbat” started coming out on russian and CIS tv which made Enemy at the Gates look like a documentary. That changed a little when Yeltsin left, but, despite what you said, continues still, thankfully, at a much smaller scale. The movies like two parts of “Burnt by the Sun 2″ were shot recently (compared to this crap, CoH2 is a patriotic tale), a TV series “Zhizn i Sudba” was made this year (based on the same source as CoH2, btw) – all for governmental money. Even this year’s V-Day congratulating speech by Putin couldn’t omiss gulags (and told that soviet soldiers liberated Dahau and Buchenwald – talk about history lessons).
Ukraine is a different tale – it tries to equalize nationalist bandits, who aided nazis and killed thousands of polish (and own) civilians to soviet veterans.
The only country, that still teaches soviet-like history is Belarussia, but that’s totally understandable, it lost 25% of it’s population in WW2 – the biggest percentage of all countries.
The only country in the CIS,

Chris

On August 10, 2013 at 3:12 am

@trioka

Yes the majority of tanks Russia had were Shermans. At least at the start. By the time you finally started pushing the Germans back and were not losing your own T34′s to Ammunition detonating inside your own tanks, your production numbers start to turn out more than you lost. by the end of the war, when your country was no longer in the hands of the Nazis, the majority of your tanks where T34′s.

What you’re saying is that if you drop the false information your country will no longer have anything to stand on, i put forth that under this rule you already have nothing to stand on. If you cant find anything in your history to be proud of, then maybe its time for your to create something.

Western society im afraid enjoys how startling the truth can be. Look at the the myrad of documentaries on slavery in the US, Nazi’s in Germany, and the rapid expansion from Britain. Look at the revolutionary war, the purges Spain did on the indigenous population, and the way Africa was treated under colonialism. At the moment its like your trying to tell me Russia is a giant sparkling sapphire that the world wants to beat into powder. Its not. Your country has done some ed up . You threw civilians into machine guns in WWII, which willing or not is horrendous. Your gulags were rife with corruption, and Stalin murdered thousands of people because he thought they were a threat to him.

And i don’t know if Russians killed mas civilians, but your country was responsible for displacing thousand of them with your slash and burn warfare. When your burning every house, every factory, every store in order to hurt the Germans, you are going to displace and possibly kill civilians. i can almost guarantee your troops didn’t have time to do a room by room search of a building before you burned it, and im sure some people got trapped. i doubt 10 million people got trapped, but some did.

On the note of 10 million, i find it hard to believe the Germans wasted 10 million rounds of ammo. Warfare at that time was brutal total war. not like today where we gawk at 3 bystanders dying. back in WWII all we had was dumb munition. the US killed tens of thousands, if not hundreds, of civilians in its carpet bombing raids. You dump that much munition on a factory your gonna kill someone. Considering Russia was trading space for time and was conscripting every mans and woman that could fight I wouldn’t be surprised if the Germans killed alot of civies.

I honestly dont know whether to pity you or your county if this altered history is what you truly believe.

J

On August 10, 2013 at 4:23 am

@Chris

You go on about Russia adopting an idealised version of World War 2, really. Unlike say America, with the average American convinced they practically won it single singlehandedly.

From an outside perspective, ignoring ridiculous propaganda of both towards eachother from the cold war, it’s blatant which, between American and now Russia, ends up ever increasingly distorting their role and others in the efforts of World War 2. The Soviet Union/Russia does not end up the one with the most overly inflated ego and sense of accomplishment and sacrifice.

As for your simultaneously vague and bold claims about “Russia” mostly using Sherman tanks, perhaps you should at least do some basic research, or even internet searches for actual numbers before spewing forth your vitriol, ironically becoming a great example how Russia is not the one with the greater memory problem.

Troika

On August 10, 2013 at 5:47 am

@ Chris

Exact numbers of your Shermans, please?
Our history is what we are proud of. West denies us our history and identity. Now, nobody can tell for sure how it actually was; but it is important to believe that our ancestors were paragons of humanity and not sadistic savages like you want to make us believe. I know that truth lies inbetween, but neither you nor me needs that truth – it is all about protecting national identity now.
Hands of every significant political figure are covered with blood, yet only some of them receive negative treatment. I can tell for sure Churchill is responsible for three times more deaths and misery than Stalin, but who of you Westerners would ever put blame on him?
You don’t even know how the scorched earth tactics worked. We burned what could not be evacuated. We didn’t waste fuel. Burning of houses was commonly carried out by their inhabitants, who realized why it’s being done.
Women were not conscripted. They were volunteers. Large part of Red Army soldiers were volunteers, adults, old and children as well.
You don’t seem to realize that there are many “cheap” ways to kill unwanted population: beating to pulp with rifle butts, impaling on bayonets, hanging, drowning, decapitating, putting them in a barn and setting it on fire. Such ways don’t waste ammo. Nazis were killing our people as mean of counter-guerrila terror (because Soviet guerrilla movement easily dwarfed these La Resistance and Armia Krajowa), or just for fun, as they didn’t consider us human beings of full value. So you don’t believe that Nazis killed more Soviet civilians than troops, but happily embrace any tale of Soviet atrocities. So very typical.

SD

On August 10, 2013 at 5:56 am

The first 3 pages were good, but then when you started talking about Putin and contemporary Russian politics you went off on a tangent that had nothing to do with the controversy.

Wilma Flintstone

On August 10, 2013 at 7:22 am

Looking at the comments, there are frankly no winners. Everyone apart from Hirmetrium, Quinsec and J have come across really badly here. It’s a videogame. Unless it was advertised as “the most factually accurate and impartial game of all time” then it’s pretty obvious the story’s going to take huge historical and artistic liberties. You don’t have to like it but starting a petition is patently ridiculous. Equally though, Russia’s role in ending the war cannot be overlooked, and I agree completely with J that the way WWII is portrayed in the US is no less lopsided and dishonest than Soviet propaganda. Same admittedly goes for the UK where I was brought up believing the UK were the biggest reason for the allied victory. It’s probably the same everywhere that took part. The clue though is in the name ‘World War II’. It was a global conflict.

thedog

On August 10, 2013 at 9:26 am

@J Of course we pretty much won it single handedly. Don’t you ever watch any John Wayne movies? Hollywood proves it.:)
Firstly people, this is a game. Games are rarely actuate. No big secret there.
Secondly, all sides committed terrible atrocities. It was war. Usually not ordered by higher up, but done by individuals who wanted payback or where just kind of warped. This is on all sides. No one side has the blue ribbon on this subject.
Thirdly, @Chris, although we did give them a number of Shermans, At the beginning of the war, we gave them Stuarts and the M2 Lee, as the Sherman was being mass produced at the time. Neither tank was as good as the Sherman but Russia, not real happy about either tank ( they compared them to there own beastly tank the T-34) took them gratefully as they were running low on a lot of things at the time.
Lastly people, all sides played a key role in the victory. The war was tough enough with all of us there. If one side hadn’t been there doing there part, Germany would have won. It was a joint effort and could not have been won without all parts. No one part should claim more than another. In soccer, the goalie does not score any points but without him, the team would definitely lose the game. He is a key player.
@J and Troika. Wow. It’s amazing how both of you seem to know what the average American knows about war. Should I put words into the mouths of Russians simply because I think I know. You seem to have a very low opinion of Americans. Maybe you two should be in charge of your county as mind reading would prove very useful to a ruler. Or maybe you two shouldn’t speak without knowing what it is you’re talking about. I live here and I don’t know what everyone thinks, since it varies from house to house, person to person, depending on how much they really care to know. Most don’t really have a clue and don’t care to know. At least that’s what I see living here. It’s the older gen that’s cares while the younger gen doesn’t care as it doesn’t impact their lives.
Just saying, don’t judge us for what you really don’t know, and I wont judge you.

max

On August 10, 2013 at 9:28 am

LOL so retared you are, go play COD 1 the russian campain ull see the same they hand a gun to 1 guy ammo to the next, so why are u suprised ?????????????????????? why not bring COD 1 back for sale in russia.

the

On August 10, 2013 at 9:30 am

Boy I really wish this thing had an editor (Game Front!!!! are you listening???) What I was trying to say but somehow missed a word was “As the Sherman was NOT being massed produce at the time”.

thedog

On August 10, 2013 at 9:35 am

Hope this isn’t a repeat as the last post didn’t seem to take. Game Front, get a bloody edit for this posting thing. As I was trying to say in my earlier post, ” as the Sherman was NOT being massed produced”. Not that it was. Hate trying to fix mistakes. Editor please……………………… ( sorry if this is a seaming repeat. Last post didn’t seem to take)

Trig

On August 10, 2013 at 10:02 am

test

Trig

On August 10, 2013 at 10:08 am

I’m not Russian, nor ex-Soviet, but Central-European, with some education years spent in Canada and the US as well. I point this out so that revisionist zealots here don’t immediately dismiss my comments as “brainwashed Russian propaganda”, which they’re so keen on doing whenever their arguments start going downhill.

@Chris, who thinks his stereotype propaganda will hold more sway if he starts with “On a serious note…” You have two sides of historic writing about Eastern Front. One side is fromt he Soviets, the other side is from German generals who wrote their memoirs after the war. Since you clearly dismiss all from the Soviet side as whitewashed, you clearly accept the tale told by Nazis who lost the war in spite of playing as dirty as they could, then blaming the defeat on everything, from winter to hordes of Russien sub-humans who jammed panzer tracks with their bodies and threw themselves at machineguns. Well, how about you give an American Colonel a chance and maybe believe his historic research, eh? http://sti.clemson.edu/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_details&gid=189&Itemid=310

Now, why am I, as a non-Russian offended by Relic’s latest product? I was already appaled by the trailer of the game, which showed the clichée evil commie, as it made it clear the game was ALL about the evil commie, and very little about the massive struggle that broke the nazis’ warmachine and saved Europe.

The Eastern front was not “two evil regimes going at one another”, as Soviets DID (there are many documents that prove it) negotiate with Western Allies to go at Germany already when it annexed Austria. But they were turned down by the Western allies, who rather sacrificed Czechoslovakia to Germany (I wonder why those who are quick to mention the Ribentropp-Molotov non-aggression pact ALWAYS fail to mention the Munich agreement, after which even Poland took a piece of Czechoslovakia in harmony with Germany. Double standards much?) in hope Germany would direct its aggression eastwards only, towards the hated bolsheviks. Stalin later bought USSR some time with the pact with Germany, knowing full well they’d come after him eventually. But that pact was equally opportunistic as the Munich agreement was. It was “realpolitik”.

The nazis then invaded Soviet Union not to liberate the poor oppressed Soviet people from a tyrannical bolshevik regime, but to enslave and if practicable exterminate the people and take over the conutry’s vast resources. The fertile bits were to feed the Great Germany, and their coal and oil were to power the German industry and warmachine. Soviet civilians meant nothing to them, were to be worked or starved to death as many other documents testify. What people like Chris believe or don’t believe here is irrelevant. Just read the documents. In the siege of Leningrad alone, more civilians were starved to death than all Western Allies war casualties combined. On purpose, as Germans really just wanted to decrease the population. A quarter of Byelorussia’s civilian population was murdered by Nazis. Altogether a lot more Soviet civilians died in the war, at the hands of Germans, than all Soviet soldiers fighting the invaders… Who’s the murderer here then? Portraying soldiers defending their own country as doing so only because of fear for the evil commie commissar is beyond ridiculous.

So, if hypothetically, in some parallel reality a North Korean or Soviet or Taliban or whatever army would have ever invaded USA, Americans would be fighting for bankers, capitalism and for president Bush, for instance, or would they be fighting for their homes, their families, their country and apple pie? Oh and if they’d defeat the invader after, hypothetically, 4 years of war and having lost, hypothetically, 15 million civilians and up to 10 million soldiers, with say, all cities and towns from New York to Texas levelled and burned, they’d be all like “Hey dudes, it’s cool, we won now, but no hard feelings, k? You just go home now and we’ll get back to whatever we were doing and we’ll meet for a beer sometimes…” or would they go nuke the out of half the globe?

Some 2-3 million Soviet POW’s died in German camps alone. Soldiers who surrendered because at first they thought they didn’t perhaps want to die for Stalin or bolshevism. But after they saw what Germans were all about, mass surrenders among Soviet troops didn’t happen anymore. They realised they were fighting for their lives & country, not for Stalin.

Having suffered through a war of extermination, I’d say Soviets showed bloody restraint in waging the war and exacting revenge on the defeated side. Just to be along the lines of the biblical eye for an eye, Soviets, after defeating Germany could have gone and murdered about 10-15 million German civilians. Yet they didn’t. In cact they didn’t murder even 1% of that number. They raped and pillaged some, true, even had a few hundred own soldiers shot for rape and pillage, but really, how does raping a certain number (it was proved that Nazis themselves exaggerated the reports or rape, in order to raise morale and make their defenders fight harder) of women compare to murdering 15 million civilians, of which a good deal were also raped before being murdered? The US mainland never suffered 4 years of Japanese occupation and millions of dead civilians, yet they still firebombed Tokyo and nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki and didn’t flinch about incinerating tens of thousands of civilians. UK’s got its share of bombings, yet overall still less than was returned to Hamburg, Dresden and Berlin.

Just look at all the pomp and circumstance of D-Day, which overall had less casualties than an average day in Stalingrad (Omaha beach about 3000 allied dead, Stalingrad total over 1 million allied dead)… Battles with a few tens of thousands of soldiers are compared as equal to battles where armies of millions fought and died (not that that makes any Allied victories any less significant, but the sheer size is uncomparable). And then Relic say “yea but more atrocities happened on Eastern front”, I do not accept that math. If you go soldier-involved-per-soldier-involved in the West and in the East, add up French villages bombed into dust by USAF, incinerated Japanese civilians, Dresden and Hamburg civilian victims, and compare that to Soviet supposed atrocities, you’ll come up with numbers of killed civilians per own troops deployed, MUCH, MUCH different.

About ridiculous scenes like NKVD shooting own soldiers in the back…what have they got to back up that claim apart form a movie with Jude Law? First of all, yes, courtmartial did happen (as they did in the West too, where soldiers were also executed for desertion), but not with a machinegun shooting soldiers in the back, as, well, those soldiers had guns too, they could shoot back and a unit of disgruntled Soviet soldiers intent on retreating could eat a detachment of NKVD for breakfast. Actually, stragglers and suspected deserters were picked up far behind the front, courtmartialed and some were shot, usually officers first, as an example. Most others were put in penal battalions, where they could redeem their honour with heroic acts. Germans also shot even hung own soldiers for “cowardice”, “failing to follow orders”, etc, particularly towards the end of the war, but we didn’t see any of that in COH1 or 2, did we?

To again compare scale. On the Western front, the Germans lost under a half a million men. Allies under a quarter of a million. And it lasted 44-45. In the East, Germans lost some 4 million, over 5 counting their allies too, and Soviets 8-10 million soldiers and 10-15 million civilians and it lasted 41-45. USA lost 1700 civillians in WW2. UK about 70,000. I do not downplay the Western Allies’ contribution to the defeat of naziism, but the bottom line is, who killed more Nazi soldiers and who had more casualties doing it? And here the numbers are merciless. The Soviets did. Many times more than Western Allies did. To then portray Soviets as simply mindless drones, barbarian hordes, evil commissars, self-murdering nutcases is insulting, indecent, without any respect towards their massive sacrifice. I as a non-Soviet European, thankful that they rid us of the truly genocidal naziism, would first and foremost expect some basic decency and respect from a computer game which claims it’s not a fantasy game, not playing with cheap clichées, many even completely rebuffed with facts. Every nation, every soldier, every nation that stood up against naziism deserves respect, not mockery and faulty clichées.

Furthermore, I think warcrimes or bad waging of war should not be the first priority of these wargames, which should instead provide the player to play out his own heroic fantasy. It’s gaming! If you wanna do a documentary on Stalin’s crimes, go right ahead. Even Russians made movies (see the movie Chekist, it’s on YouTube) that deal with the traumatic and horrible parts of their own history. But to push a faulty and historically distorted vision through a computer game, to kids, basically, to brainwash them into seeing all Soviets as genocidal maniacs, well, what is this but outright propaganda? Why could other games avoid this? Hearts of Iron objectively featured Stalin’s purges and the attack on Finland for instance. CoH1′s Eastern Front mod didn’t cause controversy. Red Orchestra: Heroes of Stalingrad doesn’t offend anyone…

If Relic was to use the same approach for COH1 as they did for COH2, by saying “but these things actually did happen, war was horrible, we wanted to show a real portrayal” (and I do not disprove that some of those things DID happen, just not all and not in the cartoonish way they showed it), then COH1 campaign would be something like this:

First you’d not start with D-Day but with the completely failed Dieppe raid, where 60% of Allied invading troops (mainly Canadians) were killed, wounded or captured. That’d be, let’s say a counterpart of throwing unarmed Russians at German machine guns, right?

Then you’d get preparatory bombardments (and also post-D-day ones) in which US bombers level an estimated 1500 French towns and villages, killing (according to French sources) about 70,000 French civilians. That’d be comparable to COH2′s scorched earth and torching own people, wouldn’t it? Maybe throw in destruction of historic and cultural monuments such as the unnecessary destruction of the Italian monastery Monte Cassino as well, to truly underline the point of Yanks being cultureless barbarians?

Then, you could show more incompetence and poor leadership in the form of “friendly-fire” bombing of British troops by Americans as it happened in Normandy, the botched Market Garden and Anzio operations, the overstretched lines and panic and retreats of the Ardennes Bulge, etc. I think that would show the poor leadership and incompetence of many Allied decisions which needlessly sacrificed many Allied soldiers’ lives quite fairly too, wouldn’t it?

A historically accurate CoH1 would also have to show the racist treatment of blacks in US Army, segregated units, the humiliating treatment of British colonial troops, etc. It would have to show attacks on allies or potential allies for political purposes, such as the British sinking of the French fleet at Mers-El-Kebir, or British supplying of Yugoslavian nazi-collaborators who were fighting against anti-Nazi partisans, just because said partisans were undesirably communist, betraying the Polish who fought in the British Army, etc.

And for a cherry on the cake – Eisenhower’s Holocaust. Read James Bacque’s book “Other Losses” about Western Allies treatment of German POW’s. The figures vary, but some say from a hundred thousand to over a million German POW’s were starved to death by western allies after victory in Europe. I think that could compare to the Soviets shooting prisoners in COH2, perhaps?

Hell, there are tons of Western history books that deal with all of these subjects, so you don’t have to touch the “stinking commie whitewashed propaganda history books” at all!

But we didn’t see any of that in COH1, did we? I really wonder why Relic chooses to focus on such things when it comes to Russians, but not when it comes to Western Allies, if they’re so big on historical accuracy? Could it have anything to do with the overall never-got-over-the-Cold-War mentality of western propaganda, similarly displayed in most movies, games, etc that feature Russia or Russians? I’d hate to think that was the case…

tl:dr
For an estimated 3000 innocent civilian 9/11 victims, US has started a war which caused an estimated 200.000-1 million deaths in Iraq, that most Americans find justified. When will we see Relic make a CoH: Iraq game, where a jailed whistleblower tells the tale of your team bombing civilian houses, shooting up civilian cars, raping underage girls, waterboarding prisoners, helicopter assaulting journalists and similar things? Of course we won’t, because that would be insulting and offensive and insane and distorting reality and taken out of context, wouldn’t it? It is however ok to show such distorted and out of context things when it comes to Russians, isn’t it, and then justify it with Putin being an a-hole towards s (while conveniently forgetting all the US controversy and debates about marriage and bombings of abortion clinics, racism, treatment of immigrants, etc)

Who’s censoring, overreacting, whitewashing, brainwashing, etc then?

Trig

On August 10, 2013 at 10:22 am

If Relic was to use the same approach for COH1 as they did for COH2, by saying “but these things actually did happen, war was horrible, we wanted to show a real portrayal” (and I do not disprove that some of those things DID happen, just not all and not in the cartoonish way they showed it), then COH1 campaign would be something like this:

First you’d not start with D-Day but with the completely failed Dieppe raid, where 60% of Allied invading troops (mainly Canadians) were killed, wounded or captured. That’d be, let’s say a counterpart of throwing unarmed Russians at German machine guns, right?

Then you’d get preparatory bombardments (and also post-D-day ones) in which US bombers level an estimated 1500 French towns and villages, killing (according to French sources) about 70,000 French civilians. That’d be comparable to COH2′s scorched earth and torching own people, wouldn’t it? Maybe throw in destruction of historic and cultural monuments such as the unnecessary destruction of the Italian monastery Monte Cassino as well, to truly underline the point of Yanks being cultureless barbarians?

Then, you could show more incompetence and poor leadership in the form of “friendly-fire” bombing of British troops by Americans as it happened in Normandy, the botched Market Garden and Anzio operations, the overstretched lines and panic and retreats of the Ardennes Bulge, etc. I think that would show the poor leadership and incompetence of many Allied decisions which needlessly sacrificed many Allied soldiers’ lives quite fairly too, wouldn’t it?

A historically accurate CoH1 would also have to show the racist treatment of blacks in US Army, segregated units, the humiliating treatment of British colonial troops, etc. It would have to show attacks on allies or potential allies for political purposes, such as the British sinking of the French fleet at Mers-El-Kebir, or British supplying of Yugoslavian nazi-collaborators who were fighting against anti-Nazi partisans, just because said partisans were undesirably communist, betraying the Polish who fought in the British Army, etc.

And for a cherry on the cake – Eisenhower’s Holocaust. Read James Bacque’s book “Other Losses” about Western Allies treatment of German POW’s. The figures vary, but some say from a hundred thousand to over a million German POW’s were starved to death by western allies after victory in Europe. I think that could compare to the Soviets shooting prisoners in COH2, perhaps?

Hell, there are tons of Western history books that deal with all of these subjects, so you don’t have to touch the “stinking commie whitewashed propaganda history books” at all!

But we didn’t see any of that in COH1, did we? I really wonder why Relic chooses to focus on such things when it comes to Russians, but not when it comes to Western Allies, if they’re so big on historical accuracy? Could it have anything to do with the overall never-got-over-the-Cold-War mentality of western propaganda, similarly displayed in most movies, games, etc that feature Russia or Russians? I’d hate to think that was the case…

Zing 45

On August 10, 2013 at 10:49 am

I’m just laughing at the guy claiming mortars were invented by Russia. Sorry, but they weren’t.

Personally, I think Relic claiming this is historically accurate is a damn joke. Its not even close to accurate and this is probably where a lot of the negative feedback is coming from. Every country had its bad moments in that war and I’m pretty sure no one really believes their country was completely clean. When you look at media views of WW2, its always going to be heavily influenced by the home nation. In the US, the US is shown as the top dog, in Britain, its the British and in Russia, its Russia. Anyone with half a brain knows that it took everyone on the Allied side to beat back the Axis powers.

Also, stop pushing us Americans into the storm with this. Relic is a small Canadian company with a handful of people that have their own views and are published by Japanese.

Beks

On August 12, 2013 at 4:30 am

First I want to write an angry post, but after I readed the comments I understand that it is no sence. Americans is same zombie as Russians. Every one of this 2 sides believe in pink glasses of their country. I am not say that one of them is best, but I am not say that any body is bad(but both have same history line).
Russians know their history NOT by propaganda or TV, we know our history by our grandfathers and granmothers that was fight in this war! Please be gentle in your comments.
P.S. Cris you are idiiot. It my feedback on your unrespectfull

fido

On August 14, 2013 at 2:15 am

Ben Richardson. Please. ask your russian speaking colleagues to translate it to you. Word by word.

Твой дед погиб на войне? На той самой Второй миовой? Мой – погиб. Поэтому ЗАТКНИ СВОЙ ЕБАЛЬНИК! Про Катынь он тут говорит….

Vexxel

On August 16, 2013 at 12:41 am

Relics claims that Russians killed and burned THEMSELVES Russians alive and pinky pony German SS has nothing to do with it at all. I have one word for this: “WTF?!!!!!!!!”. How more ridiculous can this be?!!!

Can any man burn houses with their own alive women and children for whatever insane reason?!!! Where in the world is this documented? How in the world could Relic come up with this UGLY idea in their hot desire to mix Russians with mud of lie of deceitful propaganda – Russians the nation who paid MILLIONS of lives to save the world from FASCISM!!!! Many of the Relics staff people might have ended in German DEATH FACTORIES for not being Aryan enough! And it is RUSSIANS who SAVED them from that! For god sake, HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF RESPECT for the DEAD!

Its really, worse than Goebbels or coldwar propaganda. To play on memories of dead people is disgusting. This world is indeed very ugly, and Relic is of the ugliest manifestations of it….

David

On August 16, 2013 at 6:21 am

Leaving aside everything else, I am amused once again at the double standard involved:

1. Spec Ops: The Line, a game that includes numerous atrocities against both enemy combatants and civilians (that are completely fictitious and have no basis in history) — a deep, insightful look at the horrors of war.

2. CoH2, ditto (but that are actually based on historical events) — a mortal insult to the sacrifices of the Red Army in the Great Patriotic War.

Sorry, Stalin apologists, I’m not impressed by your attempted whitewash. Sure…the Russians carried the load in WW2 (in Europe, anyhow). But they wouldn’t have had to if Stalin hadn’t been such an idiot, and in particular, had he not facilitated the creation of the Nazi war machine in the 1930s (don’t take my word for it, feel free to look it up).

To say nothing of the Hitler-Stalin Pact: had the Soviets fought the Nazis in 1939, instead of being complicit in the extinguishing of Poland, it’s even possible Hitler’s ambitions would have been nipped in the bud as early as the Polish campaign.

folklore

On August 16, 2013 at 9:02 am

@Vexxel
If you think that is unbelievable then i will kindly point you to some even worse parts done by people through out history.
King Leopold the 2nd of Belgium. He created the Congo Free state, and is estimated to be responsible up to 10 million deaths due to practices of his regime in the congo.
On the note of ww2, many many atrocities were committed on both sides. The burning houses down might seem almost merciful compared to what the Germans might do to the inhabitants. It spared the inhabitants from being tortured, raped, derided as being sub human etc…

Marija

On August 17, 2013 at 1:49 pm

@Trig

Agree with most of your comments but there are a few things I would disagree with

Nazi Soviet Pact – I partially agree with you on this point, but I don’t think the appeasement at Munich can really be compared to the active alliance between Hitler and Stalin, when Stalin joined in Hitler’s invasion of Poland, invaded the Baltic states and FInland, turned over the German communists to the Gestapo, supplied Nazi Germany with vital war materials as it made war in the west, offered to join the Axis, and murdered hundreds of thousands of people in these territories. This is the historical record; and no amount of twisting and turning, obfuscation, or complaints about Nazi propoganda can blow it away. To compare this to Munich, where the West, under very strong pressure from its pacifist societies, yielded to Hitler (gaining nothing in return) is absurd. Certainly, I feel that if you are going to defend the Soviets dealing with Hitler on the basis of realpolitik, you don’t really have the right to condemn the West for making deals with Hitler on the basis of realpolitik.

On Zaolzie; this is a standard Soviet obfuscation card. I agree it was a short sighted and stupid move. But it is hardly comparable to what the Soviets and Nazis did to Poland. And to claim that Poland and Nazi Germany ‘teamed up’ to dismember Czechoslovakia, or that Poland as co-responsible with Germany for doing so, is at best highly misleading. The occupation of Zaolzie was not agreed with Germany, as some people claim – it was a bilateral Polish-Czech matter. The Munich decisions giving Hitler the Sudetenland were already taken when Poland got involved, precisely because the Munich agreements did not address the Polish territorial claims against Czechoslovakia.

The area that Poland annexed at the time was tiny and populated largely by Poles. The Czech themselves were happier to see that area taken by Poland than by Nazi Germany, which was the alternative if Polish forces did not enter (Cieszyn had originally been claimed by Germany, and would have went to them otherwise). Poland annexed a tiny enclave (little more than a town) in an already doomed state, where many of the locals clearly welcomed them. Poland wasn’t in any alliance, political or military, with either Germany or the Axis. The takeover of Zaolzie was executed by Poland on its own and limited to the 1920 disputed area. Soviet Union on the other hand did sign with Hitler a pact about, among other nice stuff, dismembering Poland.

On the point of Britain supporting Nazi collaboraters in Yugoslavia: I say this as someone from the ex-Yugoslavia, but you do realise that the British stopped supporting the Chetniks when they discovered their Nazi collaborationist activities?

Let’s face it, the Soviets are the last people to be lecturing others about the treatment of POWs.

I agree with you though that the game gave a rediculious caricature of the Soviet Union, and you are absolutely correct that they would not do the same about the Western allies.

Trig

On August 18, 2013 at 11:04 am

@David:
“But they wouldn’t have had to if Stalin hadn’t been such an idiot, and in particular, had he not facilitated the creation of the Nazi war machine in the 1930s (don’t take my word for it, feel free to look it up).
To say nothing of the Hitler-Stalin Pact: had the Soviets fought the Nazis in 1939, instead of being complicit in the extinguishing of Poland, it’s even possible Hitler’s ambitions would have been nipped in the bud as early as the Polish campaign.”

Sloppy and ideologically biased reading of history there, buddy. Before the Munich agreement with which the western allies gave Czechoslovakia to Germany, Stalin has been negotiating with Western allies about attacking nazi Germany together, should they carry out any aggression against their neighbours. He was rejected. The West wanted to see Nazis go to war with the Bolsheviks. While after this, Stalin was equally happy to see the Nazis go to war with the Imperialists. Why then is he the only bad guy here? I suppose just asking an inappropriate question like this automatically makes me a Stalin apologost, doesn’t it? Western supply of Nazi Germany, including heavy involvement of US banks, prior to 1939 of course didn’t have anything to do with building up the Nazi war machine, eh, oh no, only Stalin’s aid did that. Sure, buddy, (don’t take my word for it, feel free to look it up).

@Marija:
Well, as I wrote in my original text I am not an ex-Soviet, but an ex-Yugoslav like yourself, so I probably do know something about the Chetnik issue. UK supported Chetniks at least up to 1943, even though British intelligence officers have made contact with Chetnik and Partisan HQs since September ’41. They only stopped suply after the Chetnik collaboration could no longer be ignored, otherwise they’d have remained their preferred partner in the ideological struggle against communism.

On “realpolitik”. I didn’t say I approve of either side’s collaboration with Nazis. But that it was the reality of the time. However nowadays only the Soviet side is villified for it, while the Western Allies initial collaboration, nazi appeasement, directing the Nazi war machine towards the East in hope they’ll take care of the “bolshevik menace” is completely whitewashed and you see examples like this guy David here, who knows only an ideological side of history in which, clearly, you have the bad guys Stalin and Hitler on one side and the good guys Americans and Brits on the other.

On Poland. If you argue Zaolzie was mainly populated by Poles, well the parts of eastern Poland annexed by the Soviet Union were mainly populated by Byelorussians as well, and were after the war also made part of Byelorussia, and not Russia (as was the case with Köberg/Kaliningrad for instance). Fact is, if it is wrong that one country carves up another country (and there seems to be a consensus that Germany and Soviet Union carving up Poland was a bad thing), then it is equally bad if Poland participated in a partition of another country in this case Czechoslovakia, no matter how happy someone was to see them there, as then, someone could equally argue that Byelorussians were happier being annexed by Soviets than they’d be by Germans after Poland was overrun. So I maintain that Chamberlain-Hitler pact, which basically gave Germany the entire Czechoslovak industrial base (approximately 1/3 of German tanks invading France were Czech-made tanks), was equally bad and opportunistic as the Ribbentropp-Molotov pact. Doesn’t make the latter any less bad, but there was a clear precedent for it.

On treatment of POW’s. I don’t think Soviets are lecturing anyone anything. But if you read David Dacque’s book “Other Losses” (or look up Eisenhower’s Holocaust), the numbers alone suggest that Soviet POWs killed by Germans and German POWs killed by Soviets, compared to Allied POWs killed by Germans and German POWs killed by Allies, the numbers alone would paint a much less idealised picture of Western Allies, and a much less villified picture of Soviets. Or, if we agree to say “they were all bastards”, well then games should show this, and not only one side as bastards.

I do not approve of Stalin’s crimes, not in the least bit. But I do believe there is a clear current propaganda agenda behind the general villification of Soviets nowadays, with only their crimes poitned out while everything else is ignored. In these debates everyone will bring up the Katyn massacres (an estimated 22,000 killed Poles), while not a single one her eor on other forums has yet mentioned the German Intelligenzaktion plan which saw 60,000 Polish nobles, teachers, entrepreneurs, social workers, priests, judges and political activists killed just following the German invasion, basically beheading all Polish intelligentsia. Why such double standards? That’s really the only thing bothering me.

Why does “Enemy At The Gates” show a fictional assault of unarmed Soviets against machineguns with NKVD shooting them in the back, and though there is no evidence to support such a scene, it is now widely accepted as the reality of Eastern Front. On the other hand “Saving Private Ryan” did not show the murderously botched Dieppe assault with 60% of allied casualities, nor USAF’s bombing of French towns and villages and the estimated 70,000 dead, nor anything else that would show the Allies as less than absolute heroes. And these two skewed paradigms have been directly transfered into CoH1 and CoH2. Why, if not for a purely practical propagandist reason?

Trig

On August 18, 2013 at 11:27 am

Sorry, the name of the commenter David made me fumble up a name David Dacque. What I meant, of course, was James Bacque.
http://www.amazon.com/OTHER-LOSSES-Shocking-Civilians-Eisenhowers/dp/1559580992

Marija

On August 18, 2013 at 12:29 pm

@Trig

On the Chetniks; my point was that the British did eventually shift support from them. It’s important to remember that the Chetniks were seen by the Yugoslav government exile, until 1944, as a legitimate armed force, and the British had to maintain good relations with them. I think the shift was actually quite a gradual process; the Chetniks tried to make themselves out to be a ‘resistance movement’ and occasionally launched token anti-axis activities as a way of trying to maintain support. It was only once irrefutable evidence came of the Chetik’s collaboration (in the form of ultra code intercepts) did they decide to definately shift support. Churchill’s hardheaded anti-Nazi realism and his romantic identification with the Partisans combined to trump his anti-Communism. As I’m sure you know, had the Chetniks won, they would have plunged Yugoslavia into a bloodbath.

I think the Americans played a more egregious role here; the Americans, with a weaker intelligence presence in the Balkans than the British, were less in touch with the realities of the Yugoslav Civil War. They were consequently less than enthusiastic about the British abandonment of the anti-Communist Mihajlović, and more reserved toward the Partisans. Numerous Chetnik commanders; such as Momčilo Đujić, whose forces collaborated with the Nazis and Italian fascists and who was a war criminal, were able to live openly in the US after the war. In 1948 at the height of the Cold War, US President Truman posthumously awarded Dragoljub Mihajlović, a convicted war criminal and Nazi collaborater, with the Legion of Merit for Operation Halyard (one of the Chetnik’s oppertunistic attempts to maintain support).

Marija

On August 18, 2013 at 4:48 pm

@Trig

I wasn’t defending the Zaolzie annexation on the basis of population; my point was that your implication that Poland and Nazi Germany teamed up to dismember Czechoslovakia is misleading. Again; Poland (unlike the USSR) did not sign any alliance with Germany, and the whole affair was a bilateral Polish-Czech affair. Poland had nothing to do with the decision to hand over the the Sudetenland to Hitler, or Hitler’s subsequent invasion of Czechoslovakia. Poland annexed a tiny enclave in an already doomed state (the Munich decisions had been taken the night before Poland sent its ultimatum) which would have gone to Germany otherwise. This is not comparable to what the USSR and Germany did to Poland.

On Poland’s eastern territories; I partially agree with you (although these areas were rather more ethnically mixed than most Ukranian nationalists were willing to admit). In these areas Poles tended to predominate in the towns and Ukranians in the countryside, which made drawing a frontier line difficult, this led to several wars between Poland and its neighbours in the early 1920s. The area around Wilno (Vilnius today) was predominantly Polish populated at the time. To give you a more accurate picture of the areas the soviets annexed (this was taken before the influx of Polish colonists in the late 1930s);

Białystok – 60% Polish, 22% Belarussian, 14% Ukranian
Wilno – 59% Polish, 23% Belarussian,, 8% Jewish, 5% Lithuanian
Nowogrodek – 53% Polish. 39% Belarussian, 7% Jewish
Polesie – 63-72% Belarrusian, 14% Polish, 10% Jewish
Wolyn – 68% Ukranian, 17% Polish, 10% Jewish
Tarnopol – 49% Polish, 46% Ukranian, 5% Jewish
Stanislawow – 69% Ukranian, 23% Polish, 7% Jewish
Lwow – 58% Polish, 34% Ukranian, 8% Jewish

Yes, you are correct that there are many myths about the Eastern front, and it’s sad.

korvos

On August 19, 2013 at 10:13 am

I got to tell you after reading this article it makes me want to buy the game even more cause the Russians sound bad ass. It’s just a game not a history book. I guess if they depicted all the Russians with angel wings and halos as helmets it would be more accurate.

Trig

On August 21, 2013 at 10:43 am

@Korvos

No, then it would be like CoH1.
And if it’s a game, not a history book, then fine, all good, but why do they claim “historic accuracy” then?
Why not just call it a fantasy RTS? I’m sure noone would complain then.

@Marija

If you agree the game’s premise is misleading and biased, why are you nitpicking every word I write then? Shall I drop a ton more stats and graphs in here, just for arguments sake, or shall we agree that the bottom line is, that this game shows a twisted and exaggerated picture and as such is neither true to history nor respectful towards those who lost their lives in the war? This game isn’t about the pre-war pacts and politics, nor communism as such and its crimes, nor the post-war totalitarianism (those are all just brought up to justify the villification of the Soviet soldier). This game is supposed to be about the Eastern Front. I didn’t see the Russians b****in’ about Steel Panters series, or Combat Mission: Barbarossa To Berlin, or Red Orchestra: Heroes of Stalingrad, or CoH1′s Eastern Front mod, or a ton of other WW2 games. Because they were mainly just about war, not about pushing a propaganda agenda. Go figure…

Brendan

On August 21, 2013 at 11:22 pm

@Lirat

As a matter of fact we do study our darker histories, as well as have plagues of news reporters tell us everything wrong with our wars.
Have you ever heard of the Trail of Tears? The genosis of the Native American people? We learn this before we learn about our heroes in world war 2. We know about the tar and feathering our patriot fathers did when our country was fiunded. We know that the British rightfully called us terrorists. We live with the mistakes of the atom bombs and our Asylum systems, which Hitler copied for his concentration camps, every day. You’re upsst about an army rapping? We learn at a young age that rape and war go hand in hand. We leadn that war is a dark and evil thing, but a necessary one when your home is threatened.

I admire Russian courage in World War 2. I’ll be the first to tell you that the war was one on the Eastern front, not the western one. I’ll tell you that Russian zeal and patriotism was the killing blow to the Nazi war machine. I think that Relic portrays a really bad ass Red Army. My brother loves Russia in this game, he can’t get enough of it!
I’ll also tell you that the Russian army did terrible things. They threw guys at machine guns (we did the same thing, it’s called D-Day) and they burnt and raped their way to Germany. Rightfully so. Germany burnt and raped their way to Moscow.
Stalin was a horrible man, as was Hitler. But it’s all perspective. We can all agree however that industrial warfare was a horrible meat grinder that cost too many brave men and women.

I think Relic did well, and I stand by their game. They portray an army that will sacrifice live and limb for their home. to me that stinks of bravery. I agree that they did not portray them well in the campaign, but it is a video game. Not a historical analysis. They take some creative liberties, but WHO DOESN’T. And besides, Russia has been the natural bad guy in USA video games for years. To br totally honest the Cold War era nurtured a pretty firm mistrust for Russians here. It isn’t easy to take a villian ans turn him into a hero.

This is a horrible discussion. Either buy the game and enjoy it. Or don’t. I personally love any and everything WW2 and any game with T34s and Panzer IVs engaged in all out war is awesome for me.

I’d request that we dont take pop shots at countries we don’t fully understand. Yes, the USA teaches an objective view of history. We did some bad things over the years and we understand that we did so.

john

On August 29, 2013 at 11:57 am

Relic should have limited their WWII time to period 1939 to June, 1941 and then the Soviets wouldn’t be fighting at all as they had the Stalin-Hitler Pact.

Besides the deaths of 22,000 Polish officers and civilians at Katyn, huge displacements (that resulted in many deaths) of Balts and Chechens, Stalin’s killing of many able Soviet generals with his Moscow Show Trials just before the war probably contributed a few more millions of needless deaths.

Putin’s government wants to produce a single version of WWII and no doubt will come up with for some vague excuses for Soviet war crimes. After all, Nuremberg was all about hanging Nazi war criminals and the Soviet war criminals were never brought to trial.

mike

On September 2, 2013 at 7:09 am

they dont like because russian killed their own people,which were Soviet puplic they were not russian they were muslim and another nationaly which were Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan,ukrania,turkmenistan,uzbek ect,they killed those populations in the wars and used their miners,assimilated to russian”s non religion Socialist calture until they got their freedom 1991,thanks for RELIC to show reallty of real russian history,not to be wirriten by russian…mike from london

happyCelloфane

On September 6, 2013 at 2:50 am

Being selv Russian, I just wanted to comment, that this is a hell of a good article. Author shows deep understanding of Russian culture and differences between Russian and Western patriotism.
While I don’t specifically condemn Relic for the game (games are games, eh? I grew up with games that were breathtaking, but far from realistic), since games in general are a powerful media these days, I fear that they can inadvertently raise up a generation full of false perception of Soviet and modern Russian people.
And I guess, Russian reaction to this incident doesn’t make the case any better.
It was a pleasure reading you

K.K

On September 28, 2013 at 12:05 pm

Dont try to reason with the russians. You cant. Their education about ‘the great patriotic war’ is complete and utter . They already lost their superpower status so we should just play along so they dont feel bad about it.

Anti-Fuckwit

On September 28, 2013 at 1:11 pm

@K.K. – if you’re American and taught under the ridiculous ‘America won the war single-handedly’ BS then you have no authority to challenge any country’s education system.

boxxy

On November 22, 2013 at 10:31 pm

The main reason of this madness is because Relic claimed that it’s Historically authentic, which is not true.

The game has illogical and historically wrong content.
The game is full of propaganda.

We Russians know that Russia wasn’t the greatest and that Stalin was not an Angel, we know that it’s been bad.
But game forgives and doesn’t mention nazi’s as it does mention Russians doing illogical things and historically wrong stuff.

It’s okay as long as you don’t claim it to be historically right, but since Relic did do so, obviously we will get a huge butthurt.

And i see alot of people saying “Aw Butthurt Russians got their idealization of ww2 revealed”
No, you dumb crap, as i stated before we knew that things were not good, and in fact terrible stuff happened.
Maybe you open a history books, talk to a Russian or two, and they will tell you what they think.

If you haven’t done so, and you believe in propaganda which Relic gives you, go ahead.
Be a stupid person you are now, no one is going to stop you.

Nabokov

On January 18, 2014 at 7:23 am

The Russians claim it is OK to portray the Germans as completely evil. However, the Soviets, who also killed 12 million civilians in the Holodomor, should not be considered evil. They then claim the US and British also did “evil” things, so therefore, they are as bad as the USSR.

However, during the cold War, only one side had to build walls and minefields and machinegun towers to keep their people from escaping the “Worker’s Paradise”. Even the Nazis, bad as they were, didn’t have to build walls to keep their own people in. That tells you all you need to know about the communists.

chris

On January 20, 2014 at 2:31 am

Part of this issue that that russians are feverently nationalistic, almost to the point of blindness (to reality).

yexel-U

On February 5, 2014 at 12:43 pm

In fact, both sides have their sins and lacks: yes, Stalin used the “scourched earth” tactics (not by burning houses with innocent citizens, but surely by destroying infrastructure), yes – there were crimes on eastern front, killing of thousands of polish officers and a tsunami of rape.
Yes, there were massive casualties of executions of their own soldiers captured by germans.
But, US was literally masturbating while two bloodthirsty dictators were splitting Europe between them, and in addition… supported both sides. Just don”t tell us Wermacht used farts in order to run their heavy bombers – all gasoline was US production.
Moreover, due to the “love” for USSR, they opened instantly the second front…just after 5 years after WWII started. That is fast! Besides, when US people proudly speak about Shermans and Aircobras – they do forget to speak about 2 soviet U-boats with loads of gold as a payment for such assistance.

The truth is…in times of war many people loose control, become more violent, commit crimes which in every day life they most probably wouldn”t. In war there are no saint heroes. War is nothing of high speeches about bravery and honour…war is something terrible, which people should avoid at any price!

yexel-U

On February 5, 2014 at 12:44 pm

WOW…
In fact, both sides have their sins and lacks: yes, Stalin used the “scourched earth” tactics (not by burning houses with innocent citizens, but surely by destroying infrastructure), yes – there were crimes on eastern front, killing of thousands of polish officers and a tsunami of rape.
Yes, there were massive casualties of executions of their own soldiers captured by germans.
But, US was literally masturbating while two bloodthirsty dictators were splitting Europe between them, and in addition… supported both sides. Just don”t tell us Wermacht used farts in order to run their heavy bombers – all gasoline was US production.
Moreover, due to the “love” for USSR, they opened instantly the second front…just after 5 years after WWII started. That is fast! Besides, when US people proudly speak about Shermans and Aircobras – they do forget to speak about 2 soviet U-boats with loads of gold as a payment for such assistance.

The truth is…in times of war many people loose control, become more violent, commit crimes which in every day life they most probably wouldn”t. In war there are no saint heroes. War is nothing of high speeches about bravery and honour…war is something terrible, which people should avoid at any price!

Chris

On February 5, 2014 at 3:20 pm

I’ve not played CoH2 yet (though I own it, and I plan to) but I’m surprised that the Germans in this game were sanitised (allegedly). I mean, Nazi Germany is up there with Imperial Japan and zombies in terms of videogame villainy.

I think that if Relic claim they are making an “authentic” game, they should be more careful. To condense all of the Soviet Army’s blunder/atrocities for the sake of story is unhelpful but understandable. Not doing the same for the Germans, or portraying events that didn’t happen (the total lack of rifles at Stalingrad) is not.

Wehrmacht

On February 23, 2014 at 5:51 am

MURICA IS MASTER RACE U BACKWARD COMMIE RUSSIANS!!! Just kidding, I don’t share that view.
Seriously? Did you really have to stoop down as low as describing Russians as aggressive and then suddenly compare them to America and glorify your own nation, fresh out of talking about Russian patriotism? Hypocrisy, irony, right there. Oh this is a game review but lets talk about LGBT and how Russians are terrible people. That’s not even a relevant story but you bring it up with the sole purpose of bashing the Russian people and calling yourself superior people. You didn’t even mention TheBadComedian’s sources which he used to back up his statements, but then again you probably didn’t pay attention to them and heard only what you wanted to hear. This entire thing is simply using a game review as an excuse for racist/bias comparisons between two races.
Russians, I apologize for my country’s people. Every day it’s the same crap, compare our nation to another and then rant about how much we’re better people. We claim to be independent and free thinking people but we simply accept anything that we’re told by our state and conclude it as reality. I’m ashamed and embarassed to share blood with these zombies of this country..

Wehrmacht

On February 23, 2014 at 6:30 am

Also, about TheBadComedian saying Nazis are running relic. MAY BE you should pay attention to his username. He makes silly jokes, did you really think that was serious? Did you even mention his huge thanks to the American developer for his Historical accuracy and non-bias portrayed in the great game Red Orchestra 2? He’s admitted the struggles of not only Russian, but German, American, British, Polish, all soldiers. You’re probably picturing him as a “ignorant god damn commie!”, but all he’s saying is; if it’s Company of Heroes, at least make the ing game about heroes.

Robert

On March 26, 2014 at 3:32 pm

I would think that after genociding 20 million Russians, that incidents of mass rape would signify the Germans getting off extremely easy. Imagine what the Germans would have done to the Russians had the situation been reversed – total extermination would have been the result. Rape vs. genocide – yes they are both crimes but which would you rather experience?

someone72

On April 27, 2014 at 3:26 pm

I love when trailor trash redneck lear that his y country did nothing durring ww2…i hope they soon learn who was helping nazi party with money in 30s…and then maybe start learning how many woman they raped in asia and france…and maybe learn how many indians died because of british govermant in India…cowards trying to take the glory from russia…ing yugoslavia did more then wester allies durring ww2…hiding like es until all main germans units were destroyed.

thedog

On April 27, 2014 at 6:28 pm

@someone72 please cry a little louder. I don’t think they could hear you crying in Poland.

NotAmerican

On June 26, 2014 at 11:50 pm

@Lirat

About the wide spread rape. Soviet troops would rape even among their allies. In Yugolsavia for example people were enthusiastic of Soviet troops joining up the front with Yugoslav partisans, but after several incidents (mostly rape and pillaging) and in particular one where a Soviet general raped an uniformed female courier form Yugoslav general staff, the Soviets were asked to leave and Yugoslav forces liberated the country themselves.

Amy

On November 5, 2014 at 7:19 pm

It’s impossible to deny that it’s a real contest between who committed the most terrible crimes of the Second World War, the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany. The horror unleashed by the Soviet Union during the war is outright denied by most Russians who are constantly told to glorify the war. Order 227 was very real, and the NKVD is responsible for killing tens of thousand -if not several hundred thousands of Soviet civilians and soldiers ( A great majority of them are believed to be camouflaged as political purges). Just as real was the scorched earth tactics employed during Operation Barbarossa and Fall Blau. Stalin proclaimed that the Germans would not find a single chicken to eat, and what couldn’t be moved to the east was destroyed. Even the pride of the Ukraine, the Dnieper Hydroelectric Station, was blown up without giving the people that lived in its vicinity warning to evacuate. The actions of the Red Army in Prussia is perhaps one of the greatest crimes of the modern age, and disgustingly enough was even bragged about by many Soviet papers and officers. It was so bad that Stavka had to issue a general directive to regain control of the mass rapes and what was tantamount to genocide.

After the war the Soviet Union also transferred hundreds of thousands of German and Japanese prisoners to big cites where they had been subjected to humiliation before being sent to labor camps. Out of the 2,000,000 held after the war, 1/3rd died of exposure, starvation, or exhaustion. Japanese soldiers had it even worse After the Soviets had been finished with them they got transferred to the Chinese Communist Party where they had been further subjected to forced labor and death camps.

20,000 Polish officers had been mass executed by the Soviets and the upraising of Warsaw, something the Soviets promised to support, got abandoned in the hopes that later Polish resistance to Soviet rule would be reduced if they allowed the revolt to be put down. One could go on for days about the horrors visited by the Soviet Union. The game is pretty accurate in this regard, however some things just can’t be shown. Russians are also in flat-out denial about their history.

Amy

On November 5, 2014 at 7:26 pm

Christ the Human race is a pathetic thing. Look at how many Russians are out right denying what they did,. It’s just sickening..Just because Germany lost does not exonerate their right to be treated with respect by history. They deserve to have what happened to their population remembered, not shamelessly denied by 70 years of Soviet and Russian propaganda and denial. Virtually every country in the world has acknowledged what happened in East Prussia. Everyone except for Russia. It should be against a law to deny it, just like the holocaust.

I pray that Canada never does something like that.