Don’t Worry, Blizzard Isn’t Dumbing Down World of Warcraft

World of Warcraft Burning Crusade LogoSo, as a World of Warcraft player and a person who follows the gaming world fairly closely, I tend to read a lot of forums. With the upcoming 2.4 content patch currently on the Public Test Realms (hereafter referred to as PTR), the WoW Test Realm Forum (found here) is a great place to see how players are liking the upcoming content and class changes.

Judging from the forum posts I have seen, one of the more controversial changes coming in the 2.4 patch is the removal of attunements for the Mount Hyjal and Black Temple 25-man raid instances, and the introduction of gear that can be purchased with Badges of Justice that is on par with Hyjal/Black Temple drops. At first glance, the non-MMO player would wonder why this, of all things, would be a point of contention. Personally, I wonder what mindset makes players think this is a bad idea.

A perfect place to see what I am talking about is this thread. A player named ‘Fsgadgdsafhg’ offers up the following opinion:

All the T6 raiding guilds old and new are dumbfounded and hung up on the insane devaluing of their arcievements. Everything we worked for raidnights after raidnights, week after week is getting handled out for frickin Badges.

Its one thing that attunements are lifted… Trashmobs and early bosses will take care of the trash guilds. But for christ sake why hand out gear, and now gems too for as much effort as running Heroics. How is it comparable to the countless hours of attunement process, the consumables,the effort?

At least pretend that hardcore raiders are important and introduce some kind of reward or recognition.

This represents what I believe to be a fundamentally flawed viewpoint. This represents the elitist, exclusionist attitude that many casual players have long said makes MMO’s less fun for them. The idea that giving more players access to dungeons or loot devalues the accomplishments of those who have already completed those challenges is ridiculous. Why? It’s simple.

Let’s say you hand me a list of guilds that play regularly on my server. With a small margin for error, I have a decent idea of the progression level of most of those guilds. I know that the Alliance side of my server has a number of MH/BT guilds, including 2 of the top guilds in the US. I also know that we have a few guilds on Horde side working on Black Temple as well. After this patch, I will still know who those guilds are, and what they accomplished. I will still know that Risen cleared Black Temple first on our server (Even if they are Alliance, you still have to respect that). No matter what my guild, or any other guild does after this patch, what came before still remains.

NaxxramasTo truly understand why these changes are being made, the players have to step back and look at things from Blizzard’s point of view. Blizzard pumps a ton of time and design money into all the content they release, and as such, they want players to be able to experience it. Think back, if you will, to when Blizzard released the 1.11 patch (Patch Notes). They added in what is widely considered to be the best raid dungeon they’ve ever designed, Naxxramas. Unfortunately, due to the difficulty of the dungeon, the gear required, and the looming release of the Burning Crusade expansion, only a minuscule fraction of the raiding population got to experience it.

I’m sure you’ve heard by now that Blizzard plans to move Naxxramas to Northrend for the Wrath of the Lich King expansion, and to make it the first 25-man raid for level 80 players. In an interview with, World of Warcraft’s Lead Designer, Jeff Kaplan, talked about the move, saying,

“Now, in regards to some of the more difficult raid content, like Naxxramas, or like Black Temple, I think there is some validity to what you’re saying, that not enough people are getting to see the content. In direct response to that, we want to take Naxxramas, what we felt was possibly one of our best dungeons in terms of game design, in terms of cool encounters, great art, it had some of the best music out of any of our zones, and a lot of people missed it, and I think they missed it for a couple reasons: One, it was super hardcore, it was our hardest dungeon of original World of Warcraft, the other reason is that it came only a few months before The Burning Crusade. I think a lot more people would have gotten the chance to experience it if they had the time to progress, but since they didn’t, they missed it.”

As you can see, they want people to experience this content. They want people to see the fruits of the massive labors they’ve put into this content. Honestly, can you blame them? If you had written a spectacular novel, but your publisher said he could sell it to a few hundred people, would you be happy with that? I highly doubt it.

The same goal explains why the new badge gear is on par with tier 6 loot. Simply put, Blizzard wants these players to have a chance in these raids. No one likes to head into a raid knowing that you’re severely undergeared and likely to fail miserably. Not only this, but guilds who have just finished or nearly finished Black Temple can benefit from this as well, making their transition into the newest raid instance, the Sunwell Plateau, much more smooth.

IllidanThe only people against this change are the hardcore raiding elitists who feel that it is sacrilege to allow guilds that are behind in progression a chance to see content that they might not have been able to see otherwise. These hardcore folks don’t want the vast majority of players to see this content simply so they can feel superior, and that’s just wrong. There are a ton of guilds out there that are playing through Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep right now, lacking only a Vashj or Kael kill to get into Mount Hyjal. Sure, those fights are difficult, and they help get you ready for the next tier of raids. But keeping those guilds from ever experiencing Hyjal or Black Temple is simply not good business, and Blizzard has the good sense to know it.

Now, this is not to say that all hardcore raiders share these sentiments. On the contrary, I believe the number of people harboring these elitist attitudes to be very small. I know a number of hardcore raiders who are wonderful, nice people, and I am proud to know them. They are willing to help out whenever they can if needed, and the community on our server is better for having them in it. It’s unfortunate that the vocal minority often gives these types of players a bad reputation.

Hardcore raiders make up a small percentage of the players in MMO’s like WoW, and they represent the least profitable players for the company running the game. However, they are often catered to as the ‘core’ audience in MMO’s. Luckily, this obviously isn’t the case in World of Warcraft, and the game and the vast majority of its players are better off for it. Let the folks in casual guilds get their badges, and their gear, and their shots at the top raid instances. They’ll have fun, and Blizzard will reap the rewards of a happy playerbase. That’s something we can all benefit from. Remember, it’s a game, and we play it to have fun. If everyone playing an MMO could hold that thought foremost in their mind, they’d be better off for it.

What do you think? Should Blizzard be opening these areas to a larger percentage of players, or should these high level areas be the exclusive preserve of the raiding elite?

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492 Comments on Don’t Worry, Blizzard Isn’t Dumbing Down World of Warcraft


On March 5, 2008 at 7:22 pm

Yadifricking da.

Open up the damn content for all players.

I don’t see anybody still yapping about the fact they removed TK and SSC attu.

And that you can get T5 for Badges might make it a bit more difficult to motivate people to raid, but still.


Shawn Sines

On March 5, 2008 at 7:39 pm

I know I, as a casual player, will never experience these things.. and honestly it doesn’t bother me but it is this exact attitude among the hardcore that drives people away from WoW. When I have to apply for membership in a video game social group, present references and then commit to it like a paying job – that is a sign I’ve got the wrong hobby and I hope someone shoots me.

As a writer or creator of content I kow my appreciation comes from knowing people can experience it. It sucks that some of the hard work the designers do is never viewed by most of the players – acts like this reduce that and give back to the players who stick it out and also offers a dangling carrot to those who bridge the casual/hardcore gap.


On March 5, 2008 at 7:40 pm

Plus the fact the expansion is coming out soon means it all be worthless in the end ;)


On March 5, 2008 at 7:43 pm

Instances like TK and Ssc will become opsolete. No one will fight Vashj or Kael anymore, oh wait there is anotehr version of Kael on the new 5 men instance. Good going, degradating the lore like this. Illidian is a boss that only the worthy should be able to see in my honest opinion, or u can allways see him while doing the attunement. It actually seems that Wow is getting Dumber. Even arena gear is better than BT and that’s before the release of patch 2.4, I can’t imagine what season 4 will give. I guess it will do the same as the last patch before expansion. Making raiding guilds disband because of pvp. It seems eSport is more important than been an mmorg. Now people will go from Kara directly to BT. I’m just happy I have seen all the content allready, I guess they will be nerfing the encounters soon too so the “dumber” can see more of the hard work the designers did making it tank and bash encounters :| I’m not happy about this change, the quest lines are meant for something. It makes u discover and taste the lore, taking this out of the way, is just another game where you do stuff without other reason than getting loots. Oh wait, Hell, why raid I can do arenas, get gear and go on a killing spring in Nagrand, where pvers try to do their quests with their pve gear which is useless against pvpers. I’m sorry the game is going down the drain pretty fast. and with 10 mill subscribers the only thing we soon will see is just 5 men instances, daily quests and pvp rewards, goodbye to raiding and goodbye to wow. (btw, the vast majority on my realm have allready downed Illidian, only one not raidig are the farmbots and the pvpers) :(


On March 5, 2008 at 8:07 pm

What I hear are the rants of people who only experienced raiding and PvP in TBC. People who played almost since Day 1 (with legacy PvP ranks and full tier2/3 sets on perpetual level 60 toons to prove it) remember how compelling this game once was on a social level and lament the very fact that TBC was ever pushed to the masses.

It brought a slew of “hand-holding” new garbage to what was once a great experience in loyalty, politics, negotiations and leadership. I can write an essay on the changes from WoW to TBC and their impact on me and my in game experiences. My biggest points will have to suffice:

Loyalty went out the window when you make a guild able to run end game content with 10-25 people max. You know what Kara was called back in Old WoW? It was called Upper Black Rock Spire. Know what BT was called? Zul’ Gurub. Anyone remember how horde was the faction that had an insanely difficult attunement to Onyxia quest chain and still we had to practically sell our soul to get one of the limited Drakisath’s Blood drop or the single spawn per instance of the quest item that popped on the floor in any random boss room in the hellhole that was LBRS?

Seriously, in the heyday you had like 3-7 top guilds per faction, per server doing end game stuff and the rest weren’t even capable of killing Ragnaros. Gold was hard to get, loot systems were flawed and biased, and although they still are, who cares about the instance drops when you can get just as good crap from badges and faction galore from every instance run. Mods were even just beginning to be useful (anyone remember the first time they got to the big rock ele boss in MC? We had no icons and nobody could keep track of crap).

You had to be a good politician to even remain a member of top guilds. You had to stick to your guns and make enemies with a couple of the 80-200 people in a guild (numbers being huge since fielding 40 people for new content (wipe) day rather than farming bosses (lootwhore) day was a taxing chore sometimes). You had to not take personally, accept criticism of the both constructive and asshatish variety without crying, and NOT GUILD HOP. You couldn’t leave a top guild since a lot of times your name became mud, you were known as a loot whore and no other top guild would allow you to join their core team (although you might get in as a benchwarmer or asskisser). Hell, now not only can you hop around three guilds doing ssc or the eye in a single day and nobody would give a but you can literally ninja loot and scoot, pay for a name change and then rejoin the same guild and do it again for s and giggles.

Officers were grown ups who led their classes and guilds with fairness and respect of their peers and underlings. Nowadays you have little kids leading raids and the words fail or failure is tossed around a lot more than it should be (yes failures existed pre-TBC too). By grownups I mean mature people and by little kids I mean immature people. My best bud in WoW was a class officer for warriors and our MT and was only 14 at the time, yet he was very respected as a c/o because of his mature attitudes. Leadership meant something then and it doesn’t now.

I am sorry your precious TBC raid content is ruined by Blizz making it even more easy to play this game, but I haven’t even touched on other issues like PvP. I grinded for months to get HWL because if I frigging stopped, I lost rank. Besides that you had to deal with PvE allies using their sick gears to whack out the pure PvP players since their was no such things as resilience and the changes to items for PvP and PvE. The best sword that could slay interweb dragons could slay people just as easily.

If you hadn’t seen the pattern developing though, Blizz made changes all over before TBC, like the dumbing down of the Ony quest chain or faction gains in plaguelands brought with Naxx (real players had exhaulted Argent Dawn from 5 manning Strat and Scholo before blackwing lair was even out). Even since the war of the sands (which is a world event that I am happy to have experienced, nothing like it before or since) the grand epic nature of the game has been declining to help ease players who don’t understand or have never played a game like Everquest or Final Fantasy Online. I mean, WoW was never, ever as insanely frustrating as anything in those games, but even as player friendly as it was to begin with, you don’t get a 10 mil subscriber mark that has yet to even peak catering to the few who enjoy challenges and frustration. You get that from catering to a more casual player base and over time allowing even more loose restrictions to entice a player base made up of almost anyone even people who hate RPG’s or the notorious “durr I hate to read games I just want to shoot people”. When WoW peaks at whatever number of millions of subscribers, the decline is inevitable, even if it takes 20 years or more, (all subscription based games rise, peak and then decline). At that point you will see them change things a lot more to cater to those they have left. Ultima Online still has people playing. Why? Because after it peaked, it never had any delusions about being a contender anymore and just opted to cater to the players who stayed and still enjoy it. We will see what the future of WoW brings, but it’s not a game that will last forever like this, be it 5, 10 or 20 years down the line it will convert from cash cow to player pleaser. In all likelihood the peak will come from another Blizz MMO of some sort, hehe. They know how to make games :P


On March 5, 2008 at 11:14 pm

The rant above mine is relatively troubling.

The whole reason I quit wow was because people bastardized it into real life. They kept telling people “Well life isn’t fair.” But fact of the matter is that real life doesn’t have dragons and orcs either.

I think if WoW moves from a time consuming fest to something a little more constructive and creative they will not lose any players, at least not people worth keeping. People think that the complaints they hear are the majority, but many of the times the only people ing are the minority in the subject at hand.

WoW is no different, a tiny group of raid whoring whiners will about the change and the rest of the millions of players will smile and enjoy themselves.

- Rico -

Ron Whitaker

On March 6, 2008 at 12:32 am

In contrast to what Grundy says above, I’d say that raiding is far better in TBC than it was in the original game. 25-man raids are far easier to organize, set up, and manage. Additionally, the raids are more challenging now than they were in the 40-man days.

Besides, anyone who experienced raiding back then knew that you could bring 25 quality raiders to a 40 man raid, and the other 15 were inconsequential. You could succeed on the strength of the 25. Blizzard saw it too, and made the fights more complicated, more challenging, and most importantly, MORE FUN.


On March 6, 2008 at 6:41 am

Raiders. they are a minority and their flawed logic of time invested = skill is more evidence of their stupidity and short sightedness


On March 6, 2008 at 6:56 am

You wall of nerd crti text does not help yout argueent, it makes it worse. To suggest that “real players” earned rep by repeating, ad nauseum, the same instance over and over is a ridiculous suggestion. How does farming the same instance make you any more “real” than any other player? It doesn’t. YOu just happen to think, for what reason I do not know, that because you ran instances and raids, that you are better? what is this based on? Many people are much more highly skilled than you they just don’t have 8 hours everyday to play.

You fail at life.


On March 6, 2008 at 9:46 am

Blizz removing attunements? You’re no longer ‘special’ because other people can get into BT/Hyjal? Outraged that badges can buy loot that doesn’t revolve around a random drop system, but is equivalent? Are you CRAAAAAWLING INNNNNNN MY SKIIIIIIIIIN?

The choices for you are very simple. If this is so horrible for you, *quit playing.* Otherwise, cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it.

It’s that simple. :lol:


On March 6, 2008 at 1:33 pm

In response to the OP and others who advocate these changes, I take the opposing viewpoint on this issue.

I find the OP’s post to be more or less colored by the likely extent of his play, namely, his achievements are not going to be devalued by the changes.

I support Blizzard’s desire to open up a great deal of the raid content to all players, however, the only method of doing this currently, with fights no longer based on the gradual accumulation of necessary stats but of execution, there is simply no way short of nerfing the actual fight or allowing players to bypass it.

I support leaving instances such as BT and Sunwell as the rewards for those who choose to devote time and energy to PvE (whether you value that form of play or not, many do) as the lore and superior gear are the rewards for a great deal of organization, time, and frustrated effort.

The OP gives us a rationalization of “triumphant capitalism”, he justifies Blizzard’s decision to attack its hardcore players with these changes as economically sensible, which on paper they are. Attacking the hardcore player-base, be it Arena players frustrated over gross imbalances or PvE players upset over opening the floodgates for the proletariat to rip off chunks of their months-earned achievement, the result will be the overall degradation and failure of the game as future prospective players will be deterred from taking up the game due to its increasing superficiality and unchallenging and unrewarding nature.

The question is, is this elitist? Yes, in a sense, but not totally. I believe many changes to content have been for the better, and I dislike the fact that Pre-BC the virtually ALL raid content was locked away from the majority of players. Currently TK/SSC is by no means unassailable, and the new 25 man format allows for smaller more casual guilds to more easily gather the logisitics to zone in. Badge gear, while needing to be kept in check, is not a terrible idea so long as it does not grow beyond the point of reason (and it looks to be) and gives casual guilds the gearing options to progress to new content. The mechanics of the game itself have changed for the better, fights are based on execution rather than the accumulation of stats over months, opening up possibilities for many players.

Overall these changes are positive, however, taking the final bone from the mouth of the hardcores, BT and Sunwell, will have an ultimate negative effect upon those players that have worked to clear it and the game itself. In a sense we need incorporation of both elitist and populist attitudes to keep the game sufficiently approachable, whilst at the same time keeping it challenging with meaningful end-goals for those that choose to pursue them.


On March 6, 2008 at 1:42 pm

I didn’t realize that there was a WoW mafia. A couple of the posts seem to be saying that you had to fight your way up the ranks of a mafia-style guild, and then you had to pick fights with your own guild mates just to keep your position. Then, you have to be “loyal” to a guild, who no doubt requires a regular tribute in order to keep you around. I’m with Shawn. This sounds like that elitist (mafia-style) guild speak where you’ve got to apply for a position in the guild, complete with references in order to be accepted. And then they expect you to play eight hours a day to prove your loyalty to the guild instead of playing the game for fun.

I’m a hardcore gamer, but even I see the benefits of helping casual gamers to enjoy the game. If every MMO catered to the elitists, they’d all fall apart within the first year (two tops). I am against dumbing down any game for any reason. However, the new content patch doesn’t appear to be a “dumbing down”, but rather an attempt to rebalance the game so others can enjoy it.


On March 6, 2008 at 1:48 pm

Blizzard is definitely dumbing down the game. I recently stopped playing the game due to my new job and would definitely consider myself amongst the hardcore when I played (our guild has had Black Temple/Hyjal on farm since June I believe it was).

You guys are sort of missing the point really and this article is definitely written by someone who plays/played casually and did not achieve anything before content got nurfed.

Basically, the problem is with Blizzard’s timing. After all the hardcore guilds spent countless hours trying to progress, Blizzard waits until they get it on farm and then decide to nurf the content to . The hardcore are mostly upset that they spent all the time to get through the “harder” portions of the game and now it’s just being handed out to everyone else with no effort involved. Over the past few patches all the bosses have been nurfed – another issue amongst the hardcore guilds – so that casual players can have an easier time with them. Once again, poor timing by Blizzard to wait till AFTER the hardcore guilds had to go through it.

It’s sort of like going to school for 10 years to become a Brain Surgeon because that was how you HAD to do it and then once you graduate the system is changed to where you can get it in 4. Do you get the point now?

If the changes that are coming in 2.4 were standard when TBC hit, I don’t think it’d have been as huge of a problem. But since Blizzard made gamers bust their ass through difficult content only for them to see it get nurfed so all the casual gamers can get it without blinking it presents a problem and hardcore gamers feel like they were robbed on their time and effort.

If anything, Blizzard should do some sort of title or recognition for those that beat the content BEFORE it got set to Noob Mode as a standing achievement for what they had to go through. That’s the very least they could do and at the same time I think would at least make most of the hardcore feel a bit better.

Ron Whitaker

On March 6, 2008 at 2:36 pm

@Badwabbit: As the author you’re referring to, I’ll let you in on my WoW perspective. I’m currently a member of a semi-serious raiding guild. I have well over 200 days played between my two 70′s, and I raid on a protection warrior.

My guild has a raiding force larger than that of most hardcore guilds, as we open our raids to our friends (be they guild members or not). We are currently 5/6 SSC, 3/4 TK, and working on Kael & Vashj. The odds are that we will have both of these down prior to 2.4 coming out, as it is still several weeks away.

Does this make me hardcore? Nah. We only raid 3 nights a week, 3-3.5 hours a night. I rarely raid more than two of those nights. However, we are still progressing, and we’ll be ‘over the hump’ before the attunement is lifted.

If you want to know what the real benefit of this change is, consider this: We routinely pull raiders from a pool of about, oh, 60-70 people. Can you imagine how long it would take us to get our raid force keyed for MH/BT? However, with these changes, Blizzard will allow us to actually see content that we might not have seen.

This is a change that Blizzard should have made prior to the TBC release, and maybe they wouldn’t have to reuse Naxx to get enough people through it to make the investment in it worthwhile.

You said “The hardcore are mostly upset that they spent all the time to get through the “harder” portions of the game and now it’s just being handed out to everyone else with no effort involved.”

No effort? Learning the fights still takes time. Executing the fights still takes effort. If a “casual” player wants to buy all the useful pieces of the 2.4 badge gear, they need some serious time running heroics and Kara to accumulate those badges.

I’m not detracting from the effort that hardcore guilds put in. I can’t imagine the dedication it takes to spend 6-7 nights a week raiding 5-6 hours a night. In fact, I couldn’t do it even if I wanted to. I have a wife and a child that would both be after me if I did. However, I respect the accomplishments of those guilds, and can’t see how these accomplishments are diminished by these changes.

Did you get upset when Blizzard changed UBRS to a 10 man raid and gave the mobs a little nerf? It’s the same concept, and a smart move on Blizzard’s part.

Be proud of your accomplishments, but don’t let that pride color your judgement. Just because other people fight the same bosses doesn’t diminish your standing in the least.


On March 6, 2008 at 5:27 pm

Look, if you are spending 5-6 hours a night raiding… hell, if you are even just PLAYING 5-6 hours a day you seriously need to seek psychological help.

Quit whining about your effort and try putting some effort into the rest of your life. Then you might actually have “real” friends that you can do some “nonfantasy” stuff with.. like…oh…have sex!


On March 6, 2008 at 5:44 pm


The whole point of my previous post was not to bash any player base or glorify a certain player base. I totally agree with your post above in that people like you and me have good memories from accomplishments and pride in our selves for it. And yes, that is pride in a game. I could give a fat baby’s about the general negative attitude of people who say we have/had no lives or whatever. Most of those kinds of folks think that having a large gamer score in Live! means they are Dirk Diggler IRL and are hypocrites since they honor one type of virtual accomplishment and spit on another.

All I was trying to say is that whining over any content nerf at this point is irrelevant in comparison to the humongous overall nerf to the game post-tbc to make it more easy for people to play. Whining wasn’t as bad then because we had a glorious new land to explore and new 5 mans as we leveled. Like the first time you hit Wailing Caverns or Uldaman and it’s just like you want to do and see everything as far as new sights go. It’s only when it came down to the values and attitudes of end game content by the people of this MMO that I stopped this addiction pretty easily. I play now just to pvp a couple BGs every once in a while.

My level 60 hunter is still at level 60 along with his trophies from 40 man days and I will not level him. I replaced him with a rogue who I use for TBC content and am very happy to see my orc hunter still looking as pimp as back when I was class officer of one of the better guilds on my server every time I login.

I just fail to see why people are whining about a new patch and, I guess, was drawn to it because it was a headline on my favorite gaming news site. That didn’t make much sense to me anyhow but I guess this particular patch and set of nerfs are making quite a few people complain all over the net. Just have some dignity and pride in yourself and your toons and take personal solace in it instead of cry and and moan. Imo.


On March 6, 2008 at 11:38 pm

Like I said, had these changes come into play at TBC’s release, there would have been an uproar, but no where to the extent that it is now. The point still stands that Blizzard is seriously dumbing down the game, but more importantly it’s just bad timing. This should be a change effective in WOTLK and not in the current expansion. They are still robbing the hardcore of all their time and effort.

Sure, we beat it first so that’s a standing accomplishment for ourselves. But, that sort of becomes a moot point when content is nurfed (as I stated, previous patches have slowly been making SSC/TK/MH/BT a hell of a lot easier than what we had to do) and, whereas we might have had to spend days or weeks on a single boss, everyone else should be able to get them down relatively easy in comparison to what we had to.

Adding to that, BADGE items are as good/better than T6 in 2.4? Um, wtf? I’m sorry, but a Heroic requires very little effort because that’s how they are designed. They are designed to be pug’able. Sure, a bad pug can still fail miserably at a Heroic, but if you’re playing the smart way, you’re more than likely doing these Heroics with friends or members of your guild, which makes a Heroic easy mode. In the end, you’re basically giving a gamer who may not have the skill/guild capable of receiving BT/Hyjal gear and you’re putting them on the same playing field as a T6 geared member (who worked a lot harder than the Heroic gamer) minus a few set bonuses.

I can totally understand that the hardcore are a very minor portion of the game. I even think the last statistic released by Blizzard was something like they only make up 4% of the WoW population. Sure, Blizzard needs to cater to the masses and that would be the casual gamer. Hell, I’ve even said for a long ass time that I’d like to be a casual gamer simply because raiding hardcore felt like a job at times, but unfortunately I’m a very competitive gamer so hardcore was the only way to go for me as I’d like to get through content fast, efficient and not wait till the next expansion was coming out before I saw all the content in the current expansion. Still, the problem is poor timing.

As I said, had this been done at the release of TBC or delayed until WOTLK, it’d not be as big of a problem, but even I felt robbed when I saw all these changes. Doing all of those fights before they got nurfed was a pain in the ass at times and then to first see them get nurfed so that others could do it more easily was one thing. Then after that they started to remove the attunements. Then they started nurfing the trash in Black Temple. Then they nurfed the trash before Kaelthas and then finally nurfed the Kaelthas fight and practically every other fight. Blizzard has slowly been nurfing the entire game and it just happened to be after all the hardcore guilds did the game on ‘Dante Must Die’ mode and now it’s been set to ‘Semi-Pro’.

Sure, Sunwell is around the corner and it’s suppose to be for “T6 geared” people. So that must be something the hardcore has to look for right? Oh , I forgot. Badge items in 2.4 are T6. Welp, there goes that. Basically, the entire game as of 2.4 is officially for the casual gamer. So, the masses can rejoice, but all those that worked so hard to get everything are basically robbed on their time and effort.

In the end, it’s bad timing and a big F’U to the hardcore. As of 2.4 there really little reason to be a hardcore WoW player. Everyone is virtually on the same playing field. Hell, Blizzard even screwed up on PVP. Why are some of the PVP weapons for certain classes the best weapons in the game? That makes no sense whatsoever. PVP gear should never be viable in a raid environment and vice versa. The whole game is slowly desolving.

Why does the word hardcore or elite always mean “someone with no life”? Sure, I played quite a bit. But, I also work full time, have a girlfriend, support my family and continue to do my “real life hobbies” (airsoft, snowboarding mostly). I just know how to manage my time. Don’t always assume that the hardcore have no life. Some people’s situations are just better than your own. You’re the typical “A-Gamer” who probably cries when he gets sniped in Halo or screams “HACKER!” when you see someone get more than one headshot in a row.


On March 7, 2008 at 8:44 am

This article appears to be lacking the breadth of topic to give reason as to why it’s outside the official WoW forums. I play WoW, have done for years, but this seems like the comments of someone who didn’t want to respond in an existing thread and wanted their own to be read.

As to the topic itself, Blizz has made itself clear – it’s going to use attunements as a pacing mechanism, and when that’s no longer necessary they’ll open up the content for the wider populace to experience. Given that’s not a new policy, I don’t know why people are complaining – be happy with what you’ve got, or find a game provider who shares your views on keeping the elite elite, as it were.


On March 7, 2008 at 12:41 pm

Mabus made a good point.

Our guild starting raiding really late, after months of raiding and farming MC, Ony, and BWL, I had finally completed my Tier 1 set and some Tier 2 in the bank… then TBC came out and all of my set pieces were replaced by the time I had hit 61.

I hope this is not the case with the next xpac.


On March 7, 2008 at 12:56 pm

Bliz, hold the phone, cancel the patch that will allow for 99% of their players to continue playing and see all the purty contents the designers have poured countless hours sweat and tear into.

Someone wearing T6 comparable gear won’t clear Hyjal or BT without the knowledge and experience. I’ve pugged with players in t4 that couldn’t out-tank a squishy or a dps that couldn’t out-dps anything holy or resto.

I clap for your achievements Badwabbit – [clap] [clap] you are #1, go you!

Now… where can I buy my T6 comparable gear using my badges that I obtained through 2 hours a night 3 nights a week running heroics and kara.


On March 7, 2008 at 2:22 pm

I have to disagree with some of the points of this article. First off, I’m not a hardcore WoW player – my highest level character is only level 30. I’m all for making WoW accessible to gamers of every type and skill. But WoW is a game, and games are competitive. There is nothing wrong with rewarding those who are more skilled or who are willing to devote more time and effort to the game than others. Yes, I agree, elitists are s that shouldn’t be catered to. But I have to believe that not everyone who objects to changes like this are elitist jerks and it sounds like the changes discussed in this article are undervaluing their efforts. I’m totally fine with the fact that I may never see some of these dungeons. I’m also fine with the fact that I can’t ski black diamond runs but I don’t expect ski resorts to turn their black diamond runs into blues and greens.


On March 7, 2008 at 3:30 pm

The more skilled are rewarded with the rights to say, yes we cleared Hyjal and BT and points beyond and can stand in front of the major cities wearing their T6+ gear so all others can see and go ‘wooooowwww, that person is awesome!!!!’.

CasualPlayer, what is your goal in this game? Obviously it’s not to see what all the game has to offer as a whole. At level 30… you haven’t seen anything yet and probably never have a chance to.

Our guild is a casual one, all of us are adults with jobs, we all would like to see all that WoW has to offer. We all would like to get there, with out the expense of giving up our real life responsibilities in doing so.

Lets remind all those that are hissy fitting patch 2.4… if your feelings are hurt that others will be given an opportunity to see the same content that you are seeing from the same game and paying the same monthly fee as you. WoW is a game.


On March 7, 2008 at 3:37 pm

All that being said… now… focus your competitiveness and devotion to something that will make a difference in your life, and everyones around you… and this entire conversation will be laughable.

Go go hardcore gamers!!


On March 7, 2008 at 3:42 pm

Badwabbit, you just want others to know what you’ve achieved in a video game? lol…

hahah… omg… thats so sad but funny.

Dude, go outside.


On March 7, 2008 at 4:47 pm

I agree with everything that this guy said. I was stuck in a casual guild with alot of skill and couldnt progress well because of gear and that hurt we could have done so much more. but i tried to get out and join a better guild a semi- hardcore raiding guild but they wouldnt accept me for 2 reasons my age and my gear and I had a good reputation as a great tank to but i couldnt get into guilds so i just quit.


On March 7, 2008 at 4:52 pm

Oh and your missing the key point of this even if they take attunements out people still have to progress through bosses and everythign hardcore people did. and the gear from badge of justices you still have to earn that to last i heard Heroic dungeons are still hard for casual people.


On March 8, 2008 at 10:53 am

The hardcore raiders can FO. Its there attitude of “we spend alot of time in play, we deserve the best loots” is driving people away and ruining the game. Some people have lives beyond the game and can’t spend 6 hours a night, 6 days a week dedicated to raiding (Hello Nihilum at TBC launch until Illidan died).

Blizzard lifted the attutments to get people into all these raids. From the statistics I’ve seen running around only about 2% of guilds are the MH/BT level of stuff. Its this vocal minority that is screaming bloody murder and the funny part most people don’t really care.

As for the badge loot in 2.4 (and the increase in badge loot since TBC launch) I think is indication of fundamental change in loot progression that not only will carry over in WotLK and be expanded. Going away are the days of running raid after raid hoping an item to drop and say hello to getting tokes to turn in for comparable gear to help keep you geared on par with the people getting the drops.

Being further progressed than me doesn’t mean your a better player, it justs means you have more time.

Hopefully when WAR and AoC come out all the elistist s in WoW pissed off about the “dumbing” down of it will go play those games.


On March 8, 2008 at 1:11 pm

They won’t they’ll still complain how Blizzard ruined their game and how they can’t have all the lore content to themselves


On March 11, 2008 at 10:43 am

“It’s sort of like going to school for 10 years to become a Brain Surgeon because that was how you HAD to do it and then once you graduate the system is changed to where you can get it in 4. Do you get the point now?”

I understand that this game means different things to different people, hardcore and casual alike. I’m not going to take a side one way or the other in that debate, but when comparisons start being drawn between a video game and neuroscience education… well, we might just have lost our way at some point.


On March 11, 2008 at 11:33 am

I just posted the same thing on my blog
It’s elitism & exclusionism at it’s worst
The funny thing is that with people who think like this they’d be happy playing dungeon runners if they could still be ‘leet’


On March 11, 2008 at 3:07 pm

BadWabbit nailed it, perhaps unintentionally:

“As of 2.4, there’s really little reason to be a hardcore WoW player. Everyone is virtually on the same playing field.”

Exactly. There never WAS a reason to be a ‘hardcore’ player. That’s not what WoW is about, or for. And having everyone on the same playing field—! The horror! The horror! (sarcasm)


On March 11, 2008 at 4:23 pm

WoW is the MCDonalds of PC gaming, just because everyone eats it, doesn’t mean its any good.


On March 11, 2008 at 4:58 pm

# DownWithElitists says:
March 6th, 2008 at 5:27 pm

Look, if you are spending 5-6 hours a night raiding… hell, if you are even just PLAYING 5-6 hours a day you seriously need to seek psychological help.

Quit whining about your effort and try putting some effort into the rest of your life. Then you might actually have “real” friends that you can do some “nonfantasy” stuff with.. like…oh…have sex!


5-6 hours?
when someone goes out partying, lets ay they leave at 10, get home at lets say 5? how is that better then raiding 5-6 hours? and, how is it better to lets say,
call a friend and walk around mindlessly in stores looking at stuff, then just talking over vent pvping or instancing together?
and, my RL friends are still my RL friends even though theyre in wow when i speak to them…



On March 11, 2008 at 4:59 pm

and, who the hell has sex with there friends?!


On March 11, 2008 at 5:02 pm

Richard, you know nihilum gets paid for what they do…

this is like giving noobs in CS auto aim

or giving noobs in RTSes 10000% more resources.


On March 11, 2008 at 5:05 pm

I agree with everything that this guy said. I was stuck in a casual guild with alot of skill and couldnt progress well because of gear and that hurt we could have done so much more. but i tried to get out and join a better guild a semi- hardcore raiding guild but they wouldnt accept me for 2 reasons my age and my gear and I had a good reputation as a great tank to but i couldnt get into guilds so i just quit.


thats like saying: look i got this new game! halo 3 wow cool, ill just use this cheat so i can get to the end and see the epic ending.


On March 11, 2008 at 5:07 pm

I like it,make it easyer to get gear make it more fun and less time comsuming for people that have a life other than live in a fanatasy world
24/ reason im looking forward to like age of conan
so i can get good gear and still have fun without have to play months to be able to get some gear that maybe good enough,and still get some challenge get it..

and other thing:
its enough work in real life to get money
i dont want to spend the same time get fantasy gold and gear.
so im happy that they make it easyer..good news:)


On March 11, 2008 at 5:08 pm

I have read all the comments above and not 1 seems to actually be from a hard core raider.

I have played WOW from day 1 raided and completed every instance there is, I have spent hours researching tatics, hours implementing those tatics, hours upon hours of wiping improving those tatics. No once have I pushed this in anyone face.

Yet all I see above is disdain and un-necessary use of swearing that is uncalled for and shows more about the person her wrote it than what they actually say.

From I “hard core raider’s” point of view I dont mind blizz removing the attunements, at the end of the day Blizz has made TBC 1 long rept grind anyway so this to me was just another grind.

What I object to is that things that I have work so hard for are now given so easily, this is not elitest. The person who started this loves examples so here is 1. You work hard for an entire month on building a house, you use your own money to buy materials to build that house and despite set back after set back you finally succed, only for the bank to give that house to someone else because the havent worked hard…sound fair? What Blizz should do is, for example, through badge gear set people up so that they can attempt BT or Hijal and then through their hard work and progress get the rewards.

People are so quick to slag off hard core raiders but I will bet my last £ that you have all watched the videos and read the tatics made by hard core raiders in order to find out what you should be doing not one of you will actually go in blind and try to work it out for yourselves. So if the hardcore raiders disappeared who would then do the hard work for you bums!! saying that I bet you would all moan and Blizz would have to make it even easier for you


On March 11, 2008 at 5:10 pm

What people are forgetting is that the nex exp will bring new gear new attunements, new well everything, my guild has a lot of players who have been around since well the start, they are true hardcore and they don’t give a crap about the devaluation so that others can get to all availble, they just say “hey we were 1st and we know it” and leave it at that. They know they are the best and help us that want to go to BT they don’t mind the nerfs at all. I however would like to suggest to Blizz that could they just add 1 monster of a dungeon for these guys, I mean they are loyal, give them something that the need to work their asses for, maybe give them a special titel as reward on completion so that they can strut their stuff if they want. This way the game will be 99.99% open to people like me and some of the other posters here. And if those like me want that reward we will have to work for it or just leave it and most will because we wouldn’t care eitherway.


On March 11, 2008 at 5:26 pm

SO let me get this straight, people are moaning because,

a. You no longer need to complete a special quest to enter certain raids.
b. You can now buy equivilant Armour/Weapons for badges.

Why is this a problem to Hardcore Raiders, if they do it correctly then it means that raiding guilds no longer have to hold new players hands to get through certain dungeons and they can recruit anyone without having to worry about if they’re attuned for high level dungeons.

In other words, more guild members who don’t have to be supported though their first raids.

It’s responses to perfectly reasonable fixes like this that make me remember why I prefer to play CoX.


On March 11, 2008 at 5:56 pm

If this means I will be able to see the inside of Black Temple some day without devoting my life to Raiding, then by all means dumb it down.


On March 11, 2008 at 6:02 pm

rly i like pre-tbc better some points:
the raid instances in pre-tbc was more fun, AV was not a farming place but a REAL warfare!,onyxia was more fun the gruul (you see that fight is nearly same only in easy mode if you not taking him slow down)

what i like with Tbc
not hell much rep grinding to you puke(YAY!)dailys for repair, better loot, cool new spells, new talents (MM to hunter is still lame after 20 point T.T) more easy to get xp before hit ourland and best of all was honor gear

now in 2.4:
attunment…fine its okey as still! its hard, free badges….rly to be honest….i not see point in give them all free….but HEY! none said 100 % drop rate right? but to have them a few parts is okey, not like they can get a fulls et out of badges^_^

but my advice… that we got new dailys….don’t grind after badges… the MONEY!…..learn form last expansion! LEARN! as i did fall for honor farm trap


On March 11, 2008 at 6:03 pm

I sure as hell won’t be picking up losers in Badge gear for my raids, Wow you can do 5 mans who bloody well cares, you have learned nothing about raiding in a 25 man environment. In fact I have put on our recruitment thread bads and losers need not apply.

Hand out free epics and people think they actually deserve it and are good, LOL many aren’t. Open Hyjal and BT sure i worked my ass off to get attuned to SSC, the Eye, Hyjal and BT but guilds can’t get far there if they don’t have the coordination but don’t give them gear equal to or better than mine so they think they deserve a spot in my guild, they don’t.

I already have losers who think their welfare pvp epics make them raid worthy this will make it worse, can’t wait for something better to come out and grats to End game guilds like Risen who are quitting wish I was a touch less addicted.


On March 11, 2008 at 6:03 pm

edit: forgot something” best of all was honor gear FOR the pvp players who not wanted to raid and stuff to be able to kill”


On March 11, 2008 at 6:04 pm

A noob with some t6 gear will stay a noob, so don’t cry about it. For some people PVE Is unreachable during their reallife, would you say that they aren’t allowed to few a big part of the game? They pay the same amount of money, to get less content? This patch will save you alot of time, you might have the time to search a girlfriend and get kids, or you can PVP. The game is made for PvP, and PvE is only to get the gear. Blizzard has seen the light and saw that 99% of the players didn’t have the time to PvE, and added the new stuff, and nerves.

It’s just great!


On March 11, 2008 at 6:12 pm

What competitive players grave for is recognition, it’s not really so important how it comes, but it should come and should not be devalued.
What i would like is some title system, currently one can get PvE titles for doing quests like killing Magtheridon, while some pvp titles are not accessible (try to get to high warlord nowadays ..). What i would propose is to give out titles for pve achievements before date X. (like, if You happened to kill Illidan before november 2007, You’ll get epic slayer of illidan as title, and if You happened to kill it a bit later but before 2.4 You will just get slayer of illidan without epic). It would’nt really make game less accessible for more casual players while still giving hardcore players something others can’t get (anymore…:P)

And well, when anything fails there is still wowjutsu :)


On March 11, 2008 at 6:18 pm

“A perfect place to see what I am talking about is this thread. A player named ‘Fsgadgdsafhg’ offers up the following opinion:”

It’s funny how this article would take a outside source from a player named ‘Fsgadgdsafhg’ on the forums.

It just goes to show people will take information from anywhere just to try to prove their point.

I totally disagree with whats said here. In fact it’s quite pathetic.

A perfect place to see what I am talking about is this thread. A player named ‘Fsgadgdsafhg’ offers up the following opinion:

As far as some of the comments that have been made. I find it funny people comment on how if you play a game for 5-6 hours you need to seek help. Then suggest having sex instead. Great solution.


On March 11, 2008 at 6:20 pm

truthfully it dont matter to me what blizzard does but comming from a casual raiding perspective its bull crap to take the attunment completly out. why put them there in the first place if you was just going to remove them? there’s still mc attunment and ony attunment as well as bwl and naxx. they wernt that hard to complete just took a little time a little bit of your precious time to get somewere you wanted to go. i mean for real anyone who plays even casually how many times a week do you do a heroic instance? pretty much only takes 3 to get ssc attunment done so whats that 1 day worth of your time to go somewere you want to go. but yet that was to hard for some people to do i guess. now to take out bt/hyjal lol the trash will soon show you that your not ready just like ssc has done in the past. i just hope that blizz relises that they will take attunment out in the long run so not put it in in the next expansion!

BTW for thse who feel they deserve to see bt/hyjal without the prior raiding have fun (thems going to be some nasty repair bills)!!!!!!!!


On March 11, 2008 at 6:58 pm

as a not quite hardcore player who worked his ass off to get semi raid quality gear and my guild is almost at the point where we will be looking at vash and kael anyway (we downed fathom lord on our 3rd weekly look at him, 5 or 6 tries overall.. with the downing itself being a flawless win. 1 pally died, but was SS’d and self rezzed mid-fight, so everyone was technically alive when he died), I look at the 2.4 patch as a mixed blessing.. we’ll be close to hyjal attuned anyway when it comes out, and the 2.4 badge gear will make the transition into the early hyjal fights that much smoother.

removing the attunement reqs will open the floodgates into hyjal/BT, that much is true.. as will allowing guilds to go right to vash and kael in SSC and TK.. doesnt mean many of these unprepared guilds will have any success against them. the 2.4 badge gear will no doubt help there. but if they were having problems taking down hydross/VR, they’ll have no chance against vash/kael, even with the new badge gear.

what the attunement removal really does is lets raiding guilds that are close enough to being attuned anyway get an early look at them (any guild that is 4-5/6 SSC and 2-3/4 TK shouldn’t have much of a problem with the early hyjal trash/first boss or 2 perhaps).

but we wont know about that till 2.4 comes out, will we?


On March 11, 2008 at 7:05 pm

I’m not a hardcore player by any means; I’ve done 3 Heroics total and no raids. However, I can appreciate the raider’s viewpoint. I actually WANT BT/Hyjal to be hard to get into and very hard to do. It seems as if everyone wants to have an equal shot at the top end gear/content, but if that happens, where does the epic feeling of this game go?

Back in “classic” WoW (I started playing about 1.5 years before BC), I liked walking past the people in their T1/T2 in IF and drooling over their gear. Sure, I wanted to get into MC/AQ/Naxx, but I didn’t mind that I couldn’t unless I was willing to expend a lot more time. It was the wide breadth of gear and experience between me and the guy next to me in T2 that made the game feel epic.

Sure, from what I’ve heard, 40-mans were a bit much to manage, and yeah, the ranked honor system was broken, but I can’t help but look at BC and think Blizz went too far. 25-man raids, fine, but nerfing the entry requirements and now even the instances themselves? I WANT that challenge there. A PvP system where just being in the BG and moving around a bit guarantees enough honor for epic PvP gear in a few weeks?

My point is this: for WoW to feel epic, for the grand sense of scale and adventure to be there, I believe there must be strong barriers between what is accessible to casuals, semi-casuals, and hardcore players. Those barriers shouldn’t be insurmountable, but neither should they be practically nonexistent. Remove the attunements, give high-level epics for Heroic badges, create a “welfare epic” system like they’ve done with PvP, and it just doesn’t do it for me. I want to work HARD for my rewards, and if certain rewards are out of my reach because I don’t care to raid multiple nights a week or hone my PvP skills, I’m fine with that.

Being able to admire Bret Farve’s accomplishments is far better in my book than looking around and seeing 75% of the people around me easily achieving what he worked hard for. :)


On March 11, 2008 at 7:40 pm

Basically, Blizzard is doing two things with this patch. First, they are making it possible for those who are not dedicated to progression able to progress just as fast as those who are. Secondly, they are creating WoW Welfare.

If you would like an analogy, here goes: I work very hard at my job, to the point where I have pissed other workers off with how many raises I have gotten. I enjoy work, its a challenge for me. I right now am only able to afford a fairly decent car, a 2002 Hyundai Accent. It works well for the price. I live in a decent neighborhood, where rent is fairly balanced. Its not the ghetto, but not the best place in town. I make sure I work enough to pay for what I have, even though at times it can be hard. So should it bother me that the next punk, who works at a job getting paid 5.50 under the table, claims he has no income to the government, and receives welfare, lives in subsidized housing for little to no cost(which is generally now up to par with houses that sell for 500k in my area), gets to drive a BMW and eat at restaurants I could only dream of, all the while smiling as he rapes my country and gives back only the minimum amount required? Hell yes! Blizz is going to destroy any integrity they had by making it so it requires no skill or effort to win. Its like those kids who think they are something special because they managed to graduate from High School. Great, you have only accomplished what hundreds of millions of other kids have, and quite possibly with more style than you. Blizz needs to add something to strive for, to desire working for. Otherwise, why play? If its just as easy to win the game as it is to turn my PC on, Ill just leave it off. Leave those who want a mindless game to play bejeweled or spend hours numbing their mind to those games on


On March 11, 2008 at 8:32 pm

I, personally, think like Badwabbit. It certainly feels like a ripoff to have all you’ve worked hard for during serveral months, just be handed out on a silver plate to the masses, that for one reason or another, are incapable to get it before it’s nerfed to oblivion.

Many of the ppl that arguments that the content should be open up to the masses, seem to have a bit of a more sloppy attitude. Like “family, friends and real life comes first” and “It’s just a game, it’s suppose to be fun”. Fine. But it still doesn’t answer why the absolute latest content should be avilable straight off right after the “hardcore” players have finished it. If you’re not hardcore, you can still go raid MC, BWL, AQ40 and NAXX, now can’t you? But no..? It ain’t fun? Why? Becuase all them casual player with all so important real lifes wanna just log in, grab some gear and stand around in Ironforge and go “ooh, look at me new shiny loot”? Honestly.. come on. If you wanna play the game for fun, then do so. Just stop expecting the best and the latest of things to be handed to you. If you wanna see all the content, fine.. then do so. Find equal minded and go raid Naxxramas. All those arguements can be fulfilled without robbing the hardcore player base of their achievements.

Oh, and @AFK..
Why should achievments in a game be any less then other games, like soccer for example? There you got a bunch of idiots all chasing the same ball, and for that hundreds of thousands of people gather, cheer and passivly watch the . And for those that “achieve” in that, they throw millions at.. *cough*Beckham*cough*. Oh yeah, you are absolute right.. games.. what a ridiculous thing. ^^


On March 11, 2008 at 8:46 pm

You all do realize that WOTLK is coming out soon right? So what if they make some stuff that hardcore raiders worked their asses off, easier for casuals to get. More than likely everything will start over again in the next XP. TBH for everyone that is upset that gear is being given out, o well. It may not be completely fair but thats life. Like some people have said, we all pay the same amount for this game and want to see all of the content it has to offer.


On March 11, 2008 at 9:44 pm

I cant help but to agree with the post above me. I raided Bwl, Mc, tk, ssc, and am about to embark upon hyjal/bt. I personally do not have a issue with making badge gear as good as BT/hyjal loot, the only outcome I see from this change is alot of people that may be considered “casual players” getting good loot and progressing in the game, but I have looked through the sunwell loot and the new badge loot and from a teir 5 element shamans POV, I’d still take some BT loot over badge loot Because according to my specs and comparisons, if I want haste gear, go badge but if i want true dps gear, go raiding.

and as far as the attunment issue, the difference between raid guilds that are successful and those whom come up short is coordination. Even if these lower casual players get their shinny new badge gear, it takes commitment and coordination to succeed in raids, and if new high end raid guilds emerge, all I have to say is welcome, is that such a bad thing?

As far as personally what I want for next expansion is enough challenge with the new hero classes to help balance the serious pvp and Pve flaws and gaps between certain classes, for instance, locks need some serious work, a class that can top DPS meters AND giggle as they fear bomb and dot classes to death is unreal… but thats neither here nor there. all I’m saying is balance the classes and give us some challenging content anyone can step up to the plate and challenge, no matter how much they play.


On March 11, 2008 at 10:08 pm

I agree with the sentiments in this article. Some people simply cannot devote the time and effort required to get to the higher level instances (props to those that can and do). I, for example, am a ‘mature age player’ (that’s putting it lightly) who has a family and I am also a shiftworker. It is simply not possible for me to put in the hours needed each and every night required to get to the higher level content. No hardcore raiding guild would have me because of my situation, but I would love to be able to get to see the higher level content. This is a way that I can see the content while not being a drag on the group. I do, however, have to put in the time running the Heroics over and over again to get the badges to get the gear so I can contribute to the group on the odd occasion I am available to go to the instance. This also enables the more casual player to be able to ‘fill in’ when a hard core guild needs one or two geared players to fill in on a raid. How many times have even the hardest core guild had to call off a raid because some people were not able to make it on a particular night? I see this as a ‘win-win’ move by Blizzard.


On March 11, 2008 at 10:39 pm

I’m fine with the attunements being opened up and the gear being given out like that. It doesn’t take away the accomplishments raiders have. If anything it takes it away from the people who didn’t do all that beforehand. They don’t get to feel how it felt to bash your head against a wall trying to learn kael then finally it clicks and he dies. They don’t get the sense of accomplishment of finally getting the guild ready for hyjal/BT. It’s their loss not ours.

To those thinking raiders are s, elistest, etc. Sorry but most of the comments made towards raiders aren’t any better. I don’t really see how making comments about the time raiders put in is witty, intelligent, or mature. You think it’s more like work? Fine, but it’s not really your business to judge us on that. I don’t really care if you say that to the idiots crying about this issue but guess what, not all of us are and your blanketing stereotypical remarks make you just as much of an idiot as they are. So gratz on “having a life outside of wow” no one gives much of a . Just go see your new content (if you can make it through it) and shut up about it.


On March 11, 2008 at 10:46 pm

I truly do agree with the last few replies. My guild on a newer server is the top alliance guild. We’ve worked tremendously hard to get down Vashj, and Kael. We’ve been able to kill all but the last Hyjal boss and the first two bosses in BT. We worked our butts off to get these down before the patch. Why? Cause we wanted to EARN the privilege of seeing the instances the way they were meant to be played. I do understand that most guilds that haven’t worked as hard as we have, will not be able to progress very far into the instances. I also know that the ones of us who have gotten the items legitimately will not respect the players that buy their gear with badges. It’s not pretty to say, but ultimately it’s true.

Yes, Blizzard is a business. Yes, they need to keep their fan base happy. However, it is essential for people to have something to work towards, even if it seems unattainable. Otherwise, it will get old very fast.

I would hate to see level 10 toons with epic mounts, just because it would make more casual people happy to have mounts at 10 instead of 40, 60, or 70. Catering to the lowest common denominator works if all you want is mediocrity. But nothing exceptional ever comes from that attitude.


On March 11, 2008 at 11:49 pm

I am so happy my 65yr. friend is going to get into Kara, Gruul, SSC, and TK. I can’t stop smiling about the few hundreds who are going to quit the game (I am tired of log-in que’s) I play on a PVE server (RPPVE) not a PVP one because I got very sick of some 12yr. player who spent every Hr. in BG’s (insted of doing school/home work till “it’s” parents forced “it” in to bed) with PVP gear “raiding” lowbie areas.

I am a Casual Gamer, I have seen MC, BWL, AQ20, Kara, Gruul, and Lurker. Look Me up (Brandywyne on Farstriders) I have had fun playing WOW I started 1 week after launch and will be there to see WOTLK. I am THE MAJORITY player type on most servers. Gold farmers and HardCore Raiders sicken me for the same reason, the have stopped playing a game for fun and have turned it in to some bastardization of a job!
I have had T.5, T1, and T2 gear I have T4 and hope to get T5 some day. I will get BADGES then I will get gear>T5 because it will help me see BT(maybe Hyjal)

Slayinggod says:
March 11th, 2008 at 7:40 pm

Basically, Blizzard is doing two things with this patch. First, they are making it possible for those who are not dedicated to progression able to progress just as fast as those who are. Secondly, they are creating WoW Welfare.

This person need to know 85% of welfare recipients are single WHITE WOMEN WITH 1 TO 2 KIDS!!!!!! WOW welfare that is laughable statement. Show me some one who plays WOW on welfare and I will turn them over to the state for malingering (look it up)

So what it will be easer to gear up for raids, to get in to the instance and maybe down a boss or two. Good for us we play the same game and Blizzard sees this. You want to cry foul, fix the PVP players that take PVP gear in to PVE. If you prevent PVP’ers from using the arena/BG rewards in PVE, 75% of PVP would stop tomarrow.

It is good you care about some thing just stop ranting. 80% of current players will never express an opinion on this subject we will just keep playing. Blizzard knows this and will gladly scrap 4% of it’s player base to keep the 96%!!!!!!!!! happy and playing.
Look at that number… 96%… :shock: kinda says it all doesn’t it..
Yay Blizzard for keeping the game accessable to me the Casual Gamer and giving me more to play with!! I win because WE as a whole are the reason YOU as an individual get to play in the first place.
Hardcore gamer sounds like some kinda extremist group any way (watch out the US may declare war on you. They have already stated they are searching for terrorists on WOW) Why would any business at all cater to the lowest % of the money influx in ANY game/service/job/market.
They won’t thats why nurfs happen and Blizzard will continue “dumb down” the game untill it appeals to the widest % of players, the Casual Gamer.
I say too you find a publisher and a developer to make your own MMO. After competing for a while you to will see why Blizzard does the nerfs and upgrades.


On March 11, 2008 at 11:56 pm

or just do like I did and quit wow because of all the elitists and just make your own private server for your own self and then see content that way. That way you can also test out other classes at 70 to see if you like playing that class at 70. I did I love it. I’ll prolly come back to the game when lich king comes out but if the attitudes of those elitists “I’m better than you because I raid 6 times a week.” Don’t stop I’ll quit again and go back to playing my private server on my own computer by myself.


On March 11, 2008 at 11:59 pm

I play wow or did and I’m on social security disability for extreme bipolarism. I take medications a lot which is one reason whY i can’t raid. Its also one of the reasons why I got kicked out of my guild because I couldn’t raid when they wanted me to even when I explained my medical condition


On March 12, 2008 at 12:07 am

Scair says it all…

“Being able to admire Bret Farve’s accomplishments is far better in my book than looking around and seeing 75% of the people around me easily achieving what he worked hard for.”

Having said that… then yeah.. Blizz have to earn money.. to do that… keep as many as possible happy… it’s pure logic…

And for ppl bashing “elites” (I don’t see myself as elite) about getting a life… we do have one.. that we’re just better at managing our free time is just a proof of what.. that we actually strive for something without expecting someone to bring it to us on a silver platter without gettin off your lazy ass….

as commented somewhere above… what would you do if it wasn’t for the hardcore gamers in the first place going in there and actually make a guide that you could use to beat the encounter…. whine even more, than we the “hardcore” are now, for yet another nerf???

What it comes down to.. (for me) is that the welfare epics is good for casuals… I just don’t like the attitude that ppl saying “I’m epic, I deserve respect for being lazy”… ok.. side-tracked there a little… it comes down to blizz could atleast recognize our hard effort for testing their content before opening it to the rest of the player-base… for me a simple title would do the trick… and the “hand of adal” just doesn’t cut it….
I’d want something similar to the AQ opening title… exceptionally hard to get and not something my neighbour could get just for copying my work

Lukas Debeer

On March 12, 2008 at 12:49 am

Well i pay the same money as everyone else and as a casual player raiding is not my thing. So what if you had to get attuned for a dungeon you did it good for you. As a casual player that are playing to have fun and like a previous poster said i dont wanna go through a damn joblike interview before i can join a guild that do these raids. Its about time that Blizzard looked at the casual player. If you compare im sure you will find that the ratio of casual to hardcore raider will stack up to the casual side and tho i think that some sort of reward for these raiding guilds is appropriate im glad that people would get the chance to at least be able to get decent weapons, armor without having to buy it for totally stupid prices at ah. Im also sure that this move by blizzard would bring the casual community back to wow.


On March 12, 2008 at 2:07 am

Face it. Not everyone can devote the millions of hours online just to finally hit lvl 70, max out your profs, then gear up for Kara, Gruul, BT, and ZA raids, through rep, BGs, and Arena Honor. It gets ridiculous and takes forever. People lose relationships that way. It’s getting bad.

I’m all for another way to get decent gear. Thank you Blizzard. I have a life outside of WoW and I don’t have to give it up to enjoy both worlds.

Now, could you PLEASE add more Tasty Fish pools during the fishing tournaments? Fighting over the few that pop up truly sucks. Wasting hours on my Sundays trying to catch a damn rare fish, week after week is getting old.

Also, any possible way to handle the rabid inflation occuring inside AH? What can we do to bring the prices back down and keep the gold spammers at bay?


On March 12, 2008 at 3:22 am

Removing some attunement chains? Yes
Nerfing content like Magtheridon and making hard earned titles easy to get? NO


On March 12, 2008 at 3:51 am

First of all, if it wasn’t for hard core gamers casual players wouldn’t have a chance at most of this game content anyway. For people who think that WoW would be more fun once the hard core gamers leave. Trust me, if they leave you will be leaving soon after. Those people pave the way for the rest of us.

Now as far as everyone seeing the new content. That is a point I honestly never thought of before. My guild never made it through BWL, so we never saw AQ40 or Naxx. Thats ok with me you know why? We didn’t do the work required in order to get that far. If I really wanted to see those instances I’m sure a hardcore raider has a movie up in world of warcraft Yet I can see Blizz mentality about wanting everyone to experience the content.

Yet something should be done about the trailblazers. The people who actually rise up to the challenge of the game. I would suggest more then just a title. I think a set of trinkets/weapons only available to those who did the attunements and finished the raids before a certain date? Maybe special mounts. Cooler looking ones that require one second less to mount up.

As for myself. I will be leaving the game. I haven’t been a hardcore raiding since TBC came out. Mostly because of real life responsibilities, but also because I see how blizzard just nerfs everything to oblivion. This makes me not even want to bother putting the effort into it. I mean why bother? If I wait a bit blizzard will just hand me the gear.

One last thing. All you casual gamers complaining about wanting to see new content, how many of you guys would be willing to see the new content if you couldn’t get the gear it came with? Most casual gamers who complain about hardcore gamers are just ppl that want the same gear that they have without putting any work into it


On March 12, 2008 at 4:18 am

If you think that it’s such a horrible thing to remove the attunement and hand out badge gear, then just get the rest of the like-minded people to just go on strike and not go into those raid dungeons until after Blizzard decides to nerf them. Then you won’t have all that hard work to do and can do it the same way everyone else down the road will be doing it.

By doing this it saves both sides from having to hear all the ing, moaning, and groaning going on. This way we can all have fun together.


On March 12, 2008 at 5:39 am

i think its ok to want everyone to see the content they make.
but i also feel that the hardcore should have somthing to show their accomlishments. and dont get me started on arena welfare epics.


On March 12, 2008 at 7:52 am

People who think the game is going to be ruined.
Can I have your stuff when you leave? Don’t be shy, leave now to avoid the rush. All your efforts was worthless anyways, all your accomplishments dust.
Good riddance.

I was in a top raiding guild on my server. We wasn’t the best but we were top five for Horde. We had fun. We had wipes. We had whine. We had ing.
But over all we had fun. Because we got to see the game. And we managed to beat bosses that other people didn’t.

The loot was nice, but to be perfectly honest with you. I would have done it without the loot. No problem.

Because, hard as it migth be for the mentally challenged to understand, loot doesn’t matter. It’s dust. Next dungeon you’ll see a better sword and you won’t keep your old junk lying around for sentimental value because you have limited inventory space and zillions of keys and quest items and reagents take up the slots.

The experience though, that lasted. That lasted longer than our guild which was torn apart by people not being able to stick to the guild in the slightest adversion. People who were more concerned about loot than fun or content. And to be honest… that’s a sucky attitude.

The game doesn’t become a diffrent game just because someone can get a few pieces of purple loot by the time your entire guild is kitted out with the highest tier. The game doesn’t becoma a diffrent game just because people who pay to play the bloody thing gets access to the stuff they pay for.

If you want to get content to yourself, fine… pay for half my monthly fee and you can have all my raiding content.

Stefan D. Poulsen

On March 12, 2008 at 8:33 am

Yes it’s fine that people can get straight into Sunwell or is it…honestly I don’t look at myself hardcore in anyway or as an elite player, but still i saw AQ40, killed c’thun, saw most of Naxx etc. Now I’m the guildmaster/recruiter of a guild that just entered MH/BT.
I wish for a wider player base to recruit from of course cause some people just never learn how to fit in a raid with their chosen class. What badges will do for me…well I will probably get loads of applications that i need to spend my time deciphering and I will need to check up on people allot more than i already do. Cause honestly it doesn’t matter at all if you have full T6 or equivalent if you still haven’t got the needed skills for a T6+ instance. We have ditched loads of people by now that simply weren’t good enough for progressing. Failing to dps right targets, breaking sheeps, spamming wrong heals, pulling aggro and loads of other reasons…we all fail at some point but some people just don’t give a damn about not wasting 24 other peoples time.

Where do i wanna go with this…

I will get a wider player base.
It will give more people a chance to get into the bigger (more progressed) guilds
It will give the masses a chance to feel “special”
Itemization becomes cheaper.

GM/Recruiters will have to be even more nazi about the people that apply
More time, gold, pots, consumables in general will be wasted due to bad players
It will be a punch in the face for most MH/BT raids now…”I entered BT and all I got was this cheap title and a necklace”
People won’t pay to much attention on itemization since it’s easy to get new gems
Prices on auction houses will be bashed to hell, all alchemists will know how few flasks they actually sell after the flasks for marks was introduced.

lol at raiders

On March 12, 2008 at 8:52 am

i think that if changes like this devalue ones perceptions of achievement within a virtual game world that will not last then said individuals need to seriously consider turning off their computers, opening up there windows and letting the sun into their eyes and perhaps maybe even going outside once and awhile.


On March 12, 2008 at 9:24 am

There are those who can and those who can’t. This changes nothing. I know that the casual people see 27,000 honor for a staff as being so daunting they will never even get started. I know people who I still can’t drag (yes drag) through the kara chain.

I fall between the casual and the hard core. I play a lot but I don’t raid much. This offers people like me who are able to put hours into the game to progress and to continue to have something to accomplish. Raiding should not be about the loot as much as it is about the encounters and accomplishments.

Lets face it, 150 badges for a sweet 2h weapon still requires a heck of a lot of effort. Figure at 5 badges per day thats 30 days of doing heroics. All for one piece of gear. Its still a lot of work guys.

I do agree that there are things that can be put into the 25 man content to make it more rewarding and to differentiate it from all the other ways of getting gear. Right now those things are crafting patterns and enchants. Blizz could surely add more of this type thing and even go so far as to greatly increase the amount of gold dropping and make those people flat out rich….


On March 12, 2008 at 9:39 am

Casual gamer thinks game should cater to them and no one else.

Wow, that’s a new and original point-of-view, sure to convince everyone.

Ron Whitaker

On March 12, 2008 at 9:42 am

@cubert: I actually think the idea of a title that is difficult to attain for those who’ve had that content on farm for a while is a good idea. Perhaps something that requires you to have completed all the attunement quest chains as well as downed a specific Sunwell boss?

I’m not sure what the specifics of such a title should be, but it should be made so that the players who receive it are those who have spent a ton of time in those raids. That would be an immediate marker of that player’s accomplishments.


For all those who are bashing hardcore players, don’t. Hardcore players push content for the rest of us. They give us something to work toward.

I don’t think Blizzard is or has any future plans to cater to that demographic, but they should invest some effort in making sure that they continue to offer content for those players. It’s a tricky balance to strike, especially when you’re trying to maximize the return on your development dollars.


On March 12, 2008 at 11:16 am

I think you’re an idiot “Ron.” How many other MMOs have you played? Same question goes for everyone else who doesn’t think Blizz is completely f’ing up wow more and more every patch. WoW is in the bottom 25% of good mmos. They have money and have advertised more than any other MMO to date, therefore they have a sh*tpot of new players that have never expierenced playing a good MMO. That is the biggest reason why so many of you people are sticking up for this game. You don’t know what good gameplay or a good MMO are like. Most of us are just playing WoW because there hasn’t been a good MMO release since WoW came out. Lets see what happens with WAR and AoC. GL finding hardcore gamers to lead your raids, maintank your raids, and run your guilds at that point.


On March 12, 2008 at 11:34 am

I honestly don’t see a problem with removing attunement quests. It’s not as if these new raiders will go into Hyjal and wtfpwn everything, the first boss would wipe them enough to stop them from trying. The real problem is when you make boss fights easier in the hope that casual gamers get to see it too. Getting to BT takes hard work, and though many may scoff at such raiders, claiming that they have a life and can’t spend every night raiding, the simple truth is that if you want something good, you have to work for it. If you want to spend your days zipping around in a big red Ferrari then you’re going to have to work very hard to get it.

If you say that since you pay the same subscription fees as a hardcore raider, you ought to experience the content that they can, then sure, you’re more than able to. Just play more, you’ll get there eventually. But if your other commitments stop you from doing that, how does that give you the right to experience content that takes months of hard work to acquire? Raiding isn’t all fun and games. I’ve experienced all the content up to hyjal, and honestly, it is a very tiring and frustrating experience. When you’ve wiped for the 20th time and your repair bills start becoming overwhelming, you start to wish you never tried in the first place. But that just makes the eventual victory even sweeter. And that’s just up to hyjal, i shudder to imagine how much effort it takes to clear black temple.

Simply put, if you want to experience end level content, then simple make time to work towards it. When Blizzard dumbs down the game and makes things easier to acquire, what is going to make me want to strive for better things? Why would i bother running raids 5 times a week if i knew that in a few months blizzard is going to make it all simple and idiot proof. If you want your game simple and idiot proof, then stick to 5 mans. Simple as that.

Can’t blame blizzard though. a corporation exists to earn money, and this is the best way for them to do that right now…


On March 12, 2008 at 12:07 pm

those who look at it one way, aren’t looking at it as a big picture..
you need to look at it, as blizzard as a business… as a pvper, as a raider… as someone who gets on for short times while the kids finally are sleeping…
you need to realize that because its a game that follows a story line generally doesn’t mean its going to do it all the time… because there are paying customers and blizzard needs to maintain good business..
as far as those raiders who feel that, certain places/bosses should only be seen by the “worthy” aka sank tons of time and effort alot of other folks haven’t to get to said place/boss… look at it like this…

your working your butt off at your 7.00 an hour job working 80 hours a week tryin to break a decent check, where someone else might work half that and make double what you are, with less education…
you would be upset, think life was unfair, and wonder how come you can’t get a slice of that pie so to speak.
now think of the person doing better then you saying to you “haha you gotta kiss this much butt to get where i am, you’ll never do it, you gotta be worthy!”

that type of attitude its stupid.. you should worry about you ! not others.. if you play a game to go somewhere someone else can’t… then you live in a fantasy world because that will never happen.

as for loyalty…. most people playing wow don’t know what respect/honor or loyalty is.
people who camp someone over and over for no reason, people who join a guild for the main reason of using to get gear, those who don’t go along with required guild functions such as ventrilo, or signups for raids for example.
those who try to make money off of every lil thing making it harder on those who can’t afford things.
folks who don’t realize its horde vs alliance…. you should be happy your side is doing great in whatever aspect your side is forging forward in.
those are examples of people who don’t have respect/honor/loyalty..

by giving folks the chance at MH/BT etc.. is giving blizz good business… giving those players who work hard in rl have families etc that really wanna see those contents but can’t, or those folks who can’t get into good guilds because of stupid invite requirements.. you should be looking at it like these few ways:

for pvp, any one on your side “horde or allie” you should be glad folks are getting better gear, so you win more.

for raiding, you should be happy more folks on your side are getting more progression done so your server looks better and your side looks better.

stop being a bunch of selfish babies!

be happy this isn’t under the old Ultima Online rules… you die you chance losing all of your stuff, be happy you can at least keep your crap when you get it!


On March 12, 2008 at 12:59 pm

I am a member of the top progressing guild on my server and I am really excited about 2.4. I think that it will be awesome that more players will be able to experience the top raid instances the blizz has put so much work into and hopefull have just as much fun as I did moving through them.

Its a game and you should play for fun…if 2.4 allows more people to have more fun playing the game then im all for it!!


On March 12, 2008 at 1:36 pm

After reading what Curse has to say about what Blizzard is doing, I can only say that i feel relieved.
I 100% agree to everything Ron said: Beeing against these new changes is selfish, instances shouldnt only be about loot!
The end-game content should be available to anyone, otherwise, its only going to waste.
People need to realise that this game is supposed to be FUN, for everyone, not just elitist guilds.

Nice move Blizzard. I’ts no wonder your MMO is at the top.

Bring it

On March 12, 2008 at 2:07 pm

:razz: ok it drives me nuts too hear everyone talkink about how people are dumb because thier guild or they have never been in bt or hyjal yet. This is GROSSLY disgusting. I am one of those that has not exp the high level content and prob never will cause…OH this is a dam game not my life. I have a full time job and a family that comes first before any game. So if me not seeing the high level content makes me dumb than WOW. I love this game possibly the best game I have ever played, and still I think it is the best one out there with the exception of the release of WAR online. I don’t know where I stand as far as getting equal gear to people that have raided the high content, but I do believe that like a job you should get rewarded for the warok you do. But this certainly does not make you 22 hours a day raiding 3 to 4 days a week at the same time for 6-7 hours or whatever you do, smarter than me. It just simply mean that WoW is your priority in your life and that you have no other responsibilities in your life and if you do than shame on you for putting WoW above them. Anyways live on freaks Nerds rule and everyone else Drulezzzzz.


On March 12, 2008 at 2:42 pm

I look at it like this.

I’m part of a guild that has a strong base, but still is a casual guild. We don’t get the chance to spend hour after hour in game at the same time. That makes it difficult at best, if not impossible to get to the end game raids like Black Temple. Are we any less skilled than some of the high end raid guilds? No, not at all. In many cases, I’d put our players in with any of the those guilds, and you’d never be able to tell the difference, skill wise. Drop us into BT now, and we’d get annihilated.

While I agree that the nerfing of things is going to allow some people that have little skill to get to the end game things, it’s also going to let a large population of gamers, such as myself and my guild, who will do well (after getting our throats stepped on a few times I’m sure), but simply could not dedicate time as a group to finish all the attunments. Many of our players do log a lot of time in game, and have a good skill base, but as a group we don’t have a huge amount of time together.

This patch is aimed at that type of player, mostly. I wasn’t whining about not seeing that content. I figured we’d get there…eventually. This patch gives this type of player the break we need to see this content earlier. It also makes it so people will get a chance to see it before the expansion, so they don’t have underutilized content, like Naxx.

I have nothing against the hardcore raider. They spend their time raiding, because that’s what they like doing. They do pave the way, certainly. We should recognize that effort.

At the same time, the hardcore raider should realize that in order for Blizzard to make the new challenge that they can tackle, Blizzard needs revenue, and the hardcore gamers, by themselves, aren’t enough of a monetary base to let them do that. They need for there to be the “middle class” gamer, because if that bulk of the gamers that play started to leave, there wouldn’t be any further challenges created for the hardcore raider. Blizzard just made the game more attractive for that middle of the road gamer, which in turn is going to allow them to create more, challenging content.

Like it or not, both type of gamer needs the other

Another thing to look at is this. How long is it going to take for people to get geared up via badges? Even if it goes quickly, (remember these are casual players, we’re sumizing here) we’re looking at a month or two (hypothetically). Then how long will it take for them to get good enough to take out the end game stuff? Another couple of months? I think that’s generous. By the time the truly casual player (not the middle of the road player like myself and my guild) gets through BT, I suspect that hardcore raiders will have new challenges to meet, offered up by Blizzard. And by the time those challenges are conquered, the expansion will most likely be out, leading to more challenges.


On March 12, 2008 at 3:03 pm

Hehe i don’t mind the game one way or another. I think they should open up after a bit and let everyone experience it. I’m kinda hardcore/medicore. I play every single night usually about 3 hours sometimes 4 if my gf and kid are gone.
I think they should always make a super hardcore dungon every now and then and have something a title or something that shows the few that have completed it. That way u keep the small crowd of hardcore happy. Also the casual’s win too.
Yes i have been playing since the beginning. But to me opening it up to everyone is the win situation. Because i used to be in marketing for a company that sells gaming etc. Hardcore make up about 10% lol. 60%+ or more are the avid gamers. basicly hardcore is the smallest percentage. To market to them =’s death sry. But i do agree they should make a super hardcore dungon and a few other things that are hardcore only. Side story’s that way no one will miss out on the “lore” . But even if they did this for the hardcore’s they would still complain. In the end you can’t please everyone and you gotta go where the money is. Because without the money there is no blizzard :) or any other game company for that matter.

Lukas Debeer

On March 12, 2008 at 3:50 pm

Frankly i cannot see how any raid guild or hardcore player do anything for me or any other casual player. I quest, I kill the monster i earn my xp and earn my own gear. If me and some of my friends want to go into a dungeon we do it. What do we need your permission hell no we don’t. And yes hardcore players care only for themselfs and their guilds what they do and dont do have no effect on me whatsoever so please stop blowing your own trumpet and think i will stop playing if the hardcore raiders leave the game. The quests will still be there i will still be able to get to level 70, 80 whatever. The point for me is the actual leveling of a char not to rush to as high as possible just so i can go wack some boss in some dungeon over and over again thats just plain boring i see no point in that whatsoever


On March 12, 2008 at 5:23 pm

First off, people saying they wont invite badge gear-wearers into raids because they have no “skill”
what skill do you need to spam the same buttons in boss fights.
tanks spam shield block, big deal
warlocks spam 1 button, shadow bolt
healers spam….heal
any different from 5 mans?
what boss fight is identical?
therefore if no boss fight is identical, and you learn the new encounters, killing vashj or kael doesnt matter.
o btw… its a game. go log on to wow and do ur dailies instead of blogging with your qq bll.


On March 12, 2008 at 6:40 pm

Have anyone noticed that this is a MMO and it evolves? When new content is added the old content gets obsolete. Wrath of the Lich King is coming and the old content will be obsolete. Hardcore guilds/players will move to the new content, and the most casual guilds/players will get the opportunity to see the old content before they move on.

All the ppl complaining about Blizz move.. have you asked yourselves if you’re even coming back to the old content when the new expansion is out? I mean you have cleared all the game, aren’t you? Then move on and let the non-elite players take a go in that part of the game.

You’re probably going to be the pioneers on the new content, so who cares?


On March 12, 2008 at 6:55 pm

The article is wrong about one point:

It says the only ones that think this is wrong are the hardcore raiders that have more or less already completed the game. There are some people playing wow that cares about something as simple as game mechanics, the game making sense and some things not being changed all the time. I’m one of them and I’ve yet to set foot in Black Temple. I think this is wrong, wrong, wrong, simply because it should be an accomplishment to progress, it shouldn’t be handed to you on a plate – basically that makes the game hollow and even less logical.

WoW started out as a game in which you had to put in an effort to get anywhere. That’s why some of started playing it. It made sense. It was a universe we could spend some of our time in and when we accomplished something we felt good. Some might argue that this is just a game. But what is football, then? It requires skill and hard work to get far in football and when your team wins a match or a title you’re happy. And yet, it’s only a game. Same goes for WoW. If the ones that work harder and have more skill are not rewarded they will find other things to do that rewards them. If WoW was only played by the socalled casuals it would be a far less interesting game for everyone – and that’s where it’s heading right now…


On March 12, 2008 at 7:27 pm

…and to all of those saying that:

a) WoW is about having fun
- Nobody can disagree. But some people think it’s funny and rewarding to be rewarded for showing dedication and skill. Should they not be allowed to have fun?

b) The game is not about loot.
- What? The game is indeed about loot. If the game was only about pressing buttons faster than the next guy how would it be interesting in the long run? The game is about building your character while gaining more skill. We’ve seen how PvP has been reduced to an advanced form of Tekken where long-term dedication no longer ment anything. The question is: If gear (and the work to get it) does not really matter, why is it even in the game? Why not just make a game that is 100% “skill”-based, then? Oooh, I know – because there are already thousands of such games around…

c) I can only play 2 hours a day
- Don’t play WoW. All you’re doing is taking part in ruining a great game for those that care about these kind of activities. Play an actiongame, drive a car in a race, whatever. Just don’t play WoW.


On March 12, 2008 at 7:35 pm

To those people telling the “raiders” quit if you don’t like it, I remember when the “casual” players were told the same thing when you all were whining. Hypocrites.

My 2 cents, 40 man raids were harder than the current 25 mans. Guild hoping was not an issue pre-TBC.

Yes, grinding rep sucked, but you did it to improve your ability in Raids, like getting the AD rep for the shoulder enchant.

I’ll still play and btw, you don’t have to be a hardcore raider to get to high level content, it just takes a little longer so stop using that lame excuse.


On March 12, 2008 at 8:00 pm

I don’t see why removing attunement quests is a bother, If you want recognition for your hard work ‘champion of the naaru’ and such titles should get you that. Also people seem to forget that just because the instance is now easier to get into does not make it easier to complete and if a guild can’t even do kara/gruul then they won’t be able to do Hyjal/BT so it doesn’t matter, if they can then a good portion of them would eventually get there, all these changes simply allow the casual guilds to progress without boring the hardcore while the guilds with less time on WoW ‘catch up’.

To those whinging about gear, is that the only reason you raid? If gear is all you care about surely it would be easier to just grind S3, so you must raid for the experience and/or the lore (which by the way is messed up and one of the reasons I myself have become annoyed with WoW) and therefore you have already received your reward for your troubles. As grundy has pointed out, there are much bigger flaws in modern WoW than this patch.


On March 12, 2008 at 10:17 pm

I can see blizz’s viewpoint. I can also see the casual players viewpoint. In the end, it’s about $$’s. Not about time and effort. Not about what anyone has accomplished or how much they enjoyed the game content.

WoW has become less of an immersion and more of an arcade game. Let’s face it, for those of us that use wow as our main hobby, it’s failing slightly. But the majority of players don’t want to put the time in because they have other things that are of more interest. A player that plays 1 hour a week pays the same as someone who plays 40 or 50.

Immersion costs development money and less player base. Arcade action costs less and is designed more for the masses. Blizzard has done a decent job blending the two. It’s just when they merge really close the sides jump at each other and the drama begins like now.


On March 13, 2008 at 2:43 am

well, being one of hte casuals (used to raid ~30 hours a week tho) I guess I’d be lucky if I ever see 1 or 2 of those badge rewards… who do you seriously think is ever getting a lot of these, other than the current raiding crew that will get badges for killing bosses?

and attunements? those not prepared will be killed by trash anyways, this just makes it easier to bring alts or new players…


On March 13, 2008 at 3:02 am

The issue for me isn’t that less hardcore players shouldn’t be allowed to see content, of course they should, but let them progress through the instances from Karazhan to Sunwell themselves. Thats why its called RAID PROGRESSION.


On March 13, 2008 at 3:59 am


To begin I have played WoW as a raider for . I have a Scarab Lord and 3 welfare epic toons that are my mains on the domain I play most. I also have a GF and a life when not raiding to kill any stupid comments that might appear in response to this post.

While I can sympathize with the work that goes into being able to simply walk into BT, Nerfs like this are almost required for more gamers to be able to see the content. Its not dumbing it down its just opening it up. Frankly if I had to run another group through the Ony chain while doing AQ opening set I would have opened up a wrist. Attunements suck they keep people out of areas because of time available to game not because of skill level. I have a total of 3 alts on the same server I opened AQ on, I cant walk into ony on 2 of them or BWL without someone opening UBRS. Does this have anything to deal with skill or that I might not be able to handle the encounters…..

The saddest thing about TBC other then the horrible scaling of gear, was Naxx or rather that it became pointless to see it. I loved Naxx and I will again retooled, that TBC was released and ours was the only guild on my server to see it really kills the point of having a instance.

The hardcore raiders get a bandaid in the form of titles. Its not going to make up for the gear but ohh well nothings perfect. If you finish the vials q with 2.4 you are now “Hand of A’dal”. Not perfect but good enough. I would only make one change to the title system and its this – When you nerf the content make the title non available. “Illidans head is on my keychain” title should be included in the game fyi

As Far as the badge loots get over it, people whining about this don’t sound very hardcore to me. I dont even want to bother lvling a 70 these days let alone gear through intensive rather boring raiding that I have already done on other toons. Show me a hardcore raider that wants to bother going into SSC again and I’ll show you someone lying to themselves. My guild is farming BT for loot not glory – we can go in kill everything walk out with gems and epics. You wanna run 30+ heroics to get a weapon bonzia have fun

In the end badges level the playing field and while it takes a bit shorter time to lvl a toon and equip with the gear, you forget the benefits to raiders – it gives me a bigger pool of possible raiders I can pull from. We don’t have to run alts through SSC and TK anymore thank god. And noobs while in gear like BT gear are still going to be judged on if they can down a boss or just farm honor.

Just don’t nerf final bosses and legendary toys will still only go to those that earn them. Screw the epics =) later I have a bug to ride


On March 13, 2008 at 5:42 am

For those of you who worked your asses off and put the time in (because you could) and got to where you are now, why can you not just be content with yourself… you know you did it, you can be proud, why do you feel the need to show off, why do you want everyone else to be inferior to you? you know you did it, they know you did it and they didnt, just deal with it. I am in a guild now with some of the most talented and skilled players I have ever seen in this game, they could easily have made it into BT and Hyjal months ago, but because of guild politics the original guild disbanded and now they only do 10 man instances. Now I would love one of you “elitists” to tell them that they do not deserve the gear that they can get in 2.4, and that they are noobs… they are just as skilled (maybe even more so) than you, its just circumstance.

I have read often here that people think their time is being wasted now and it is worth nothing… you decided to put that time in, and you did it so that you could get to those bosses and that gear before anyone else, and you accomplished it. Be proud of what you did. You do deserve recognition for what you did, but who are you to try and deny that from everyone else? Did you think the game was just gonna stay like this for ever, are you gonna complain when WotLK comes out and your epics are replaced with greens again like when BC came out? Then you will once again have the same gear as everyone else who is leveling to 80.

Which ever way you look at it, Blizzard has the final word, like in all the nerfings classes and instances have received in the past.

And for those who say that people with lower gear are all noobs and dont deserve the gear, we are talking about people here, who are able to learn. You also had that lower gear at one stage, people will get the gear and then learn the instances, and will get better. As for the people who said that they wont allow those “noobs” into their guild (raidleader), did you ever think that people wouldnt want to join your guild because the game is not enjoyable when you have to raid with people like you, who always think they better than everyone else? You are a bunch of morons, you could be denying some great players into your guild, I know I would hate to raid under those circumstances, I’m fortunate enough to have found a great bunch of people to raid with.

I am a semi-hardcore raider, because of my current situation, it is impossible for me to raid everynight, although I am changing my situation so that I can. I am a competitive gamer, and I would love to be able to raid all day every day. That does not mean that I would think myself better than anyone else, and that certainly does not mean that I would try and stop anyone from experiencing all the amazing and fun content that I have seen, in fact it would be the exact opposite, I find just as much gratification (if not more) then taking my friends and guildies into new instances for the first time, and helping them gear up and become better players. In the end I am helping the guild and myself ultimately, because those people will help me get further as well, and help me get better gear and we can all enjoy it as we progress.


On March 13, 2008 at 11:23 am

World of Warcraft is easy. This game isn’t hard. I was in a hard core raiding guild back before there was a ZG/RAQ/AQ/Naxx. UBRS was still a 15 man instance. My guild had MC/BWL/RAQ/ZG on farm. We were still working on last guy in AQ and we had 6 bosses on farm in Naxx. We werent the top guild worldwide that is for sure, but we were top guild horde side on the server. We had better gear than everyone else and raided 30 hours a week. 6 5 hour days. The game wasn’t hard. The boss fights werent hard. The hardest part was gearing up for the fights, getting the right make up of people on line for the fight, and then getting all 40 of those people to pay attention for the entire fight.

Killing bosses is not an accomplishment of skill, it is an accomplishment of organization and perseverance. Most of those upset with blizzard are worried that people wont inspect them and say wow anymore. They wont be able to say, we are part of the few geeks that devote 20+ hours a week to raiding, henceforth we are better players than you are, look at our gear and accomplishments.

Some threw fits when PvP gear was made more accessible and arena gear was actually competive with the high tier, those players wanted to have the best gear in PvP so they could dominate other players who didn’t have a large guild to drag them around end game content to get gear. PvP and arena is vastly better now because of the changes.

Some threw fits when it went from 40 and 20 man raids to 25 and 10 man raids. End game raiding is now open up to many more guilds because of these changes and many more people see content because of it. The raiding game is better off because of it.

This change allows people to see content before it is deemed worthless. I personally would like to see a normal mode and heroic mode of raid content to allow PuGs to go in and see the end game dungeons. Give something extra for those who go in on heroic mode like you do for normal instances. That way everyone can see content. 15 man PuG UBRS was kind of fun, and I had been on 20 man ZG Pugs before, it is possible.

But yeah, like was said earlier, cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it. Sorry there are no cheats for you to come in and dominate people so you have to go out and get the best gear possible, heaven forbid other players get the same gear and show you you aren’t as “skilled” as you thought you were. You just had more time to play.


On March 13, 2008 at 1:11 pm

not many ppl will go to BT even if the attunement is gone. i mean, why should they? just farm badges and buy ur gear instead of going in an instance that takes like 4hours to kill all bosses(when theres no wiping) and the gear aint superior. just run karazhan and ZA with a good group and you got like 40 badges each 3 days. its less time for just about the same gear.

dont get me wrong.the changes made with the 10 and 25 man dungeons is an improvement. but now that every1 is getting epics so easy it’s just not that fun for me to play the end game part. if ppl really wanted to see end, they should put some effort in it to get there. its simple.

the idea of normal and heroic raids is a nice twist to separate the “elitist” from the regular gamers of WoW. both groups get their way.


On March 13, 2008 at 3:48 pm

I think this has been said a few times, but to illustrate my point, I will only point out that everyone who has played this game “since day one” has experienced the gradual degradation and diminution of your achievements over time. By this I mean, for example, those who raided for months and months pre-TBC saw those months of finally getting 8/8 of T1 or T2 or T3 going *poof* within 3 lvls of 60 in TBC.

Look — we all see the “hardcore” types preening around in IF or wherever, wearing T5 or T6. On my server, we see members of the top Alliance raiding guild preening around on their ZA Bear Mounts — what’s the message “Look everyone — here’s my new toy. Something we have achieved and you won’t get”. The fact is I feel that those people can do that since a lot of us don’t really want to invest the time and effort to raid 7 days a week. A lot of us have lives outside of WoW. To those who want to make a commitment, you have that momentary right to flaunt your accomplishment — that is until enough players reach critical mass, and more and more players get that same reward. And then, all of a sudden, that Bear Mount is as special as it was — but still you had your 15 minutes of fame. As Patton says at the end of the move “All glory is fleeting.”

To me this is no different than the first hunter who got the epic bow and staff (another quest that was nerfed to allow more people the ability to finish it) or the first Locks, Pallys or Druids to finish their epic mount quests. I was one of those players to do all of the above on different toons — not the first — but I did most of them when they were “hard” to finish. Now the Hunter Epic bow is obsolete, and any Lock or Pally with friends who are lvl 70 can knock those quests off in 15 to 30 minutes (and I’ve helped people do it — it is sad compared to the wipes we had when doing it at level 60). But again, life is all about changes, and things DO get easier.

I am one of those players that is between “hard core” and “casual”. I REALLY want to experience Naxx, BT and MH, if for any reason, to experience the lore and the encounter. I don’t think it denigrates the accomplishments of those who worked hard to do it the first times by allowing more people access to those events. Don’t worry, you can still ride around Ironforge on your Bear Mounts.


On March 13, 2008 at 4:45 pm

Here’s the thing that the hardcore raiders seem to miss: They’ve done it–and there is a new 25 man opening up with even better gear, as I understand it, in the patch. Because there’s new content, they can move on to the Sunwell, while the more casual players can pick up the leftovers and try out the old BT/MH content. Sorry, I just don’t see the problem there. I remember how mad a lot of raiders were when BC came out and suddenly they were picking up greens and quest blues that outclassed their hard-earned epics. Sure, T3 lasted until 67-68, but not much longer.

I understand the feeling of achievement, but as a game progresses the old ultimates become devalued (that’s the nature of any constantly growing and expanding world). It’s just the same old tired complaint on a new day.


On March 13, 2008 at 5:12 pm

The OP in the “not so good” article is not only wrong, he’s also speaking for groups of players in WoW (the HC) that he doesnt have any knodledge about and he also seems to find it nessesary to describe the HC player as some kind of socialy-challanged played that is out to destroy the fun in WoW for him.

He fails to understand that the attunemts beign lifted is not a problem, I’ve hardly see anyone complain about it nor do I see any problem with it myself, it should only benefit the game and the raiding scene.

His example of Naxx is almost funny, yes, Naxx wasnt used optimal, and yes, the long gear-up path to it was part of the reason, but the fact that TBC came and killed of raiding for 99% was the biggest reason for sure. IF naxx would have been just an other step in the gear-up progress for raiding, a lot of people would have seen it, of course not as many as MC, BWL, AQ, but that is only natural. This also doesnt mean the expansion wasnt needed, as the gear-up path to Naxx was starting to get to long, no shortcuts were in place to allow people to get to Naxx faster.

His arguments that badge gear is needed for players to reach this content sais enough about his raiding experience. Raiding today isnt about gear anymore, gear is everywhere, its so easy and most important, it’s of a higher level then that you should have while fighting a boss (if you arent on the edge of new content). Raiding is all about having enough dedicated people there, that are willingly and also somewhat capable of raiding.

The problem with badge gear, badge gems, S3 and soon S4 arena gear is the following:

Q. Why not just let casual players get rewards comparable to those from raids?

A. It would be almost impossible for us to do, and this is a philosophical decision. We need to put a structure in place for players where they feel that if they do more difficult encounters, they’ll get rewarded for it. As soon as we give more equal rewards across the board, for a lot of players it will diminish the accomplishment of killing something like Nefarian. My favorite times in the development cycle are when there are encounters that are close to being defeated but have not yet been beaten. It really creates a sense of awe among the players that there is something big and truly dangerous in the world. But it would be very disappointing if the items found on Nefarian were the same thing you could get in your nightly Stratholme run. [Stratholme is a much easier five-person dungeon.]

AS blizzard said themself about a year ago, there has to be some kind of sense of being rewarded and wanting to put in the efford to raid. Now that gear is so easely obtained by so many (semi) solo ways, do you think it’s getting easier to get those 25 raiders to show up and raid ? No, a lot of people will choose the easy way, others will find the thing they love, raiding, not worth the time anymore as a new expansion commes rendering all their gear worthless, and more reasons to not show up, but in the end you’ll be standing there with 15 guys and unable to raid.


On March 13, 2008 at 8:26 pm

Essentially what they’re doing is this: letting the hardcore players do it first, then letting the casuals have a shot. To me, the heart of the game is learning new content. Once you’ve conquered it the only thing to do (in PVE at least) is move on to more, or if there’s nothing left, unsubscribe until there is more. In the end, the hardcore players will always see it first, and the casuals will see it later.But the hardcore will still get to be proud of their dedication. My friend and I who are both fairly casual laugh about how things have changed since “back in the day.” But it’s fun, and we’re proud that we were both warlocks when warlocks used to SUCK bad.

Moreover, I’d much rather it be this way than spend countless weeks accumulating fire resist gear just to be able to survive for 2 seconds on Rag. That wasn’t fun, this is. Sure it’s easier, but fun it the ultimate goal for most people.

Shattrath Broker

On March 13, 2008 at 9:21 pm

I can’t say I find the removal of attunements bad. A bit of attunement would’ve been nice, simply for the sake of being able to say “I’m attuned”, but it’s really not needed.

However, making gear – which is usually considered the reward for raiding, besides seeing the content – that is equivalent or better than what is attained in raids easily available seems illogical.

If you could get top-notch gear by any of the two following methods, which would you pick: Gather 24 friends, learn how to defeat terrible monsters over the course of a weeks, potentially consuming numerous flasks -OR- gather 4 random people and go to Heroics for a couple of days, maybe attend a Karazhan “pick-up-group” just for a little boost?

One obviously takes more effort, ability, and investment than the other, yet the reward is the same or worse.

To make the same comparison for PvP-oriented players: What if the Arena sets could be bought for 100g a piece and with no Rating requirement? You know, to make them available to a bigger audience and let people get into the Arena spotlight a bit easier.


On March 13, 2008 at 11:46 pm

Ok I see the /crying and cheering alike, but please remember Pre TBC when we raided MC … for the best gear we could get and not 5 lvls into TBC that gear was not worth the space in our inventory. Now with Wrath comming out please realize that your so sought after gear will again become worthless and pointless.

Ok for the Attunement well heck I know I spent countless hours 5 maning just to get into Naxx but in the end what did I get, the self satisfaction that yes I was one of a few that actually saw the inside and cleared it and that is about all again TBC gear killed it too.

Yes I have lead raiding guilds Pre TBC and was in a very good one post. But the lifestyle of “hardcore” raiders will become mundane for most and Blizz should NOT just be for them. My Warlock is fully Kara, Grull some of SSC geared and my Warrior has full PvP set which was harder IMO the PvP/Arena stuff took MUCH longer to gain the rep/honor than it did for raiding. Which gear is better uhh hell if I know, but my Warrior is set gear wise MUCH better than some raiders I have seen.

I appreciate both sides of this dilemma but in the end it is Blizzards call and if you do not feel that it is right for you go find a differant game.



On March 13, 2008 at 11:54 pm

I’m one of those so called “hardcore raiders” in a BT/Hyjal guild.

While I find the removal of attunements annoying, its something I can let slide. I can understand that Blizzard or casual players might actually like to see or make attempts in these zones. If casual guilds/groups wanna try it, then let them.

However, Tier 6 quality badge loot is like pulling the rug out from under the feet of those who went through grueling progression. Before this new patch, BT/Hyjal raiders were forced through the T4 and T5 dungeons in a crawl of progression, as it is only plausible and sensible to take raid instances one step at a time. Gearing up slowly from the easier encounters that match our combination of gear and skill making for logical progression. There was no badge loot to speak of.

Using the analogy the author of this article so cleverly invented, if BT is a masterpiece sequel of a series of books (the previous T4/T5 instance), then giving players the reward of T6 gear via badges is like reading a SparkNote summary of the entire first part of the series, then giving the reader the full benefit and satisfaction of reading the sequel masterpiece (BT) without actually reading the first half of the series (raiding the T4/T5 Dungeons.

Simply put, letting everyone else shortcut raid progression right to the end is unfair to those who worked around the hard way. When you buy a TV from a store for $800 one day, and then it goes on sale the next for $500, if you bought it the first day for $800 and go back to the store they don’t just say “Tough luck, shoulda just waited.” They at least try to even the score by giving you a partial refund or instore credit. Blizzard makes no such attempt to compensate their “hardcore raiders.” Continuing this strategy will result in a loss of their dedicated (non-casual) player community.


On March 13, 2008 at 11:57 pm

To all you “hardcore” players. i can understand your frustration but honestly I think you guys just like to complain. Please stop calling pvp-gear welfare gear for one thing, pvp is not easy and it allows me( a casual player, who doesn’t have time to sign agreements and play like its a job) the chance to get good gear and also to have fun. Im never going to see bt or mount hyjal and honestly i couldn’t care less.


On March 14, 2008 at 12:43 am

The only thing that has disappointed me and worries me is that WoW will not have any real lore anymore. Thats why I play the game. Thats why I raid. I wanna experience the content and yes gear comes with it. I like the personal satisfaction that comes from completing an instance. I dont have to declare it to a bunch of virtual dorks (I’m one) or what not, but its about teamwork and the friends you make. I like and dislike the 25 mans. I like em b/c you can go in with less people and succeed, but at the same time, those 25 people need to be on top of their games with less flexibility on the people who come.

This game is all about money. Its a business. When cost of living and goods becomes free, then they can cater to more people and make the game hard core. Its simple business unfortunately. Cater to more people, make more money. End of story.

I personally dislike pvp and its probably only gonna get worse but I do like the fact that I can hop in and hop out in under an hour now instead of hours and hours of playing and if I take a vacation with my family or whatever, I get behind. I love the game overall but its my last MMO. Too time consuming for me, but I’m an addict! See you on Cenarion Circle!


On March 14, 2008 at 4:22 am

Comments like these keep on amazing me.

To all you “hardcore” players. i can understand your frustration but honestly I think you guys just like to complain. Please stop calling pvp-gear welfare gear for one thing, pvp is not easy and it allows me( a casual player, who doesn’t have time to sign agreements and play like its a job) the chance to get good gear and also to have fun. Im never going to see bt or mount hyjal and honestly i couldn’t care less.

pvp-gear shouldnt be called welfare cause people with not much time can also get top tier gear now ! I’d say you already said yourself that it is welfare gear, but still others shouldnt call it that. And no, that it costs a lot of your playing time to get, doesnt make it hard to get, if you go that road and make it all relative then someone who plays 5 minutes a day should get T6 gear if he uses 4 of those minutes to get that gear, cause for him that is very hard and consumes most of his ingame time !


On March 14, 2008 at 4:55 am

I tend to agree with the last 3 posts, especially the last. I find myself rather frustrated by the elitist posts, many of which sound like whining kids, and yes I read every last post. Those comparing this to RL situations really need to get a reality check. Further if you aren’t satisfied with the fact that you got there to begin with, and when it was more difficult to get there .. then you begin to sound like one of those people (or groups of people) that love sitting around Org gloating for hours on end; which are just about as annoying as gold sellers.

“Sure, we beat it first so that’s a standing accomplishment for ourselves. But, that sort of becomes a moot point when content is nurfed”

Frist of all, it’s nerfed. Second of all, it does not become a moot point because you did get there before hand, it wasn’t as easy, and obviously if you’ve made it to any of the more difficult end-game content people on your server know about it. On mine one of the most known guids is Pinnacle..and it’s for how far they’ve made it. Finally, there are going to be more than enough players that know what it took prior to 2.4; the respect is still going to be there .. not dissolve like you suggest..just because more people can get there.

The bottom line is that these places are still going to be tough, still require the same number of people, and still require the same organization several of you make a point of mentioning. It will however unhinge some of the ‘we are better than all of the rest of you’ guilds from their thrones. It will also allow smaller guilds that don’t say.. have 2 or 3 Kara groups going or have just enough people on at a time to do a 25-man, when it’s planned in advance .. to actually get in to the otherwise unrealistic goal of end content. Not everyone wants to be forced to join one of those few big raiding guilds, especially when they’ve been in a particular guild for a fair amount of time and made close friends in it.

TBH, I’m more concerned about the pvp changes in this patch than what’s being discussed here. With the advent of immediate honor, many think AV will turn into a ‘field fighting’ or middle-of-the-road kill-count fest honor farm. Many of us will agree that WSG is pretty much that way as it is, and I shudder to think how much it might go over the already..sometimes hour to hour and a half field-fighting turtle games there already are. It should be interesting to see irregardless, though, so I’m not entirely opposed to it despite what I anticipate.

If you still can’t get over the ‘omg this isn’t fair’ attitude .. well, as my late father always said … “the door swings both ways”.


On March 14, 2008 at 8:03 am

There is a certain amount of merit in what has been said before.

However there is something else that has not been stated. People who said that blizzard should not cater to the 5% of the game that is hardcore raiders.

This is sadly incorrect, blizzard in fact (in my opinion) needs these 5% to validate the game. If the encounters were not difficult and challenging the HCRs would leave and find another game. Blizzard would then be forced to dumb down all it’s encounters until it’s hello kitty island adventure.

Imagine a WOW where all bosses are easy, where you can get legendarys for a rep grind where epics mean nothing. That is the ultimate progression of where blizz is going. When some of the hardcore raiders say that this progression will be the end of wow they are not talking out of their behinds.

For these people WOW is often not their first MMORPG and they are just expressing what they have seen in every MMORPG that came before WOW.It is fine to cater to the casual players (to an extent) but when the company begins to bend over backwards for the casual players it ultimately leads to the destruction of the game.

IMO the game itself needs to be challenging for it to mean something, to remove some of the challenge is to devalue my accomplishment, to give away what i worked for is to belittle the effort i put out.

Just to mention i am not some uber l33t raider by guild is stuck on Vashj and Kael but i would love to kill those guys and earn that distinction of killing them and earning my way into Hyjal. Anything less is just a bit disappointing.

The analogy is the random guy who gets picked out of the crowd to try his luck against a pro batter. Sure he’s standing on the mound before thousands of people and doing the job of the pitcher, but does he really deserve to be there or is it just a gimmie? No that’s just one guy, but imagine if they allowed pretty much everyone who wanted to do the same. Sure you could say that they pro player have their huge paychecks to console them but how long would they be satisfied with that?

That’s just my perspective.


On March 14, 2008 at 9:42 am

Just a few thoughts on the subject..

Maybe my server is bizzare, so I’ll just ask, how many times before you joined your big raiding guild were you told that you couldn’t goto a particular instance ie Ony because you just didn’t have the gear for it. You had the attunement, but just didn’t have the resistance, or whatnot. Same with BWL, worked to get attuned, but didn’t have the DKP for the gear, got outbid, or heard “We need to get our MT’s geared” or w/e. Point is, you didn’t have the gear.

Personally it happened to me a few times, a ton of friends as well. They worked just as hard to get there, but ended up not getting geared in time for the next lvl of progression.

I see this as a way around that, helping the smaller guilds (admittedly like the one I’m in now) a chance to be ready for the next level of progression. Those of you that have gotten the attunement will still have recognition, although it may seem small to you, we DO notice the titles before the names of players who have earned certain achievements.

I may never even see BT, heck I’ll probably never even get the badges to get the ear that you are upset about because honestly, I prefer world encounters over raiding. I work 50 hours a week at my job, I don’t want to WORK when I’m trying to relax.

Having said that, when I do get pulled into an instance to tank, having a few T6 items would be handy, and no I don’t really think it’s a short-cut either because even tho I may never step foot in a raid instance again, I am and have always been a guild farmer. I go out and mine, skin, pick flowers, fish, make pots…. on my toons just so my small guild has every advantage they can when they go into any instance. Now that means I work for it, but since I don’t actually go does that mean I don’t deserve a little bit of fruit for my efforts?

Beyond that, have you noticed that Naxx still requires attunment? And they are talking of beefing it up, moving it to Northrend and making it a lvl 80 instance? Just because they are removing attunments from a couple, allbeit currently high lvl raid instances, doesn’t mean that the elites are going to lose their place. They will still be the best raiders, and will be able to continue to prove it as more dungeons are unveiled. But us little guys will be able to enjoy a little more content, before it all becomes pointless with the lvl 80 bump.

Just my thoughts,

Mickey Phoenix

On March 14, 2008 at 11:20 am

Raiding in WoW is like buying a computer. You can buy a $4000 computer, and have bleeding-edge performance. And some yahoo can come along in a year and a half and buy a computer with better performance for $2000. Is that fair? You spent twice as much as he did!

Yes…and you had a better computer than he did for that intervening year and a half, and could wave your epeen about being able to turn the graphics all the way up on the bleeding-edge games and still hit 60 FPS, etc.

Or, you could spend $800 for a low-end computer. It’ll still run all of your games, it just won’t run them as well.

Raiding’s the same way. If you want to spend $4000 (30-40 hours a week of raiding), you can have the fastest computer (first Illidan kill on your server, awesome epix). But someone will come along in a year and a half (next expansion, or nerfed content, or badge gear), and buy it for $2000 (2 hours a night of running Heroics over a period of several months, or getting into nerfed raid instances without attunements).

Is that unfair? Only if you think it’s unfair that you spent $4000 for your uber computer, and someone else bought a better computer for $2000 a couple of years later.

Blizzard is kind enough to provide us with ever-expanding content and ever-increasing challenges. They do this on a large scale (expansions, which increase the level cap and invalidate all previous gear and encounters within a month or two), and on a small scale (Arena seasons scaled to match with the average PvE progression across servers, badge gear upgrades to keep the badge gear competitive with second-rate top-end raiding gear, etc.) And wherever you are on that curve, just like with buying a computer, you can “spend too much” and get bleeding-edge gear, you can “look for the best price/performance” and do casual raiding, or you can “buy the cheap computer” and just run 5-mans and quests and slowly pick up badge gear.

When you spend $4000 for a computer, you’re not buying a guarantee that your computer will be the best computer forever. You’re buying a year or so edge over the person who spends $2000 for a computer.

Same with raiding gear. When you raid hardcore, you’re not buying the best gear forever. You’re buying a six month edge over the casual raider, who is in turn buying a six month edge over the non-raider.

So think about it–when buying a computer, you don’t argue about how “fair” it is, you just decide what you’re willing to pay for a given competitive edge. Why not do the same with raiding?

Take care,

Kemi on Shadowsong, Alliance


On March 14, 2008 at 12:56 pm

Blizzard takes the roll of being the great normalizer. They did it with BC when they took all the gear that people worked hard for and replaced it within the first 2 levels of outland. They did it with classes, one class cannot possibly be more powerful than another (unless you are a Warlock or a Rogue). Everyone must be the same.

They are trying to do it here again with instances. As someone who has raided pre-BC through BWL and AQ40, and now to mid-endgame raids in BC, it kinda pissed me off that I spend countless hours wiping, spending gold on repairs, and learning fights so that better gear could just be given way in the xpac.

I don’t agree with the removal of attunements, and the introduction of badge gear to get people up to speed to get them into current end-game content. It will backfire for the following reasons:

1. Guilds who are not capable of clearing Mags or Gruul will eat it in MH or BT. They haven’t learned the displine neccisary to complete the end-game instances, they can’t currently complete the entry level 25 man instances, unless of course Blizzard dumbs them down too (e.g. Mags).

2. Having great gear doesn’t make you a good player. I know people who have awesome gear because they joined guilds who farm instances with good gear. These folks get this gear, and are none the better at their class for it. A raid is only as strong as its weakest player. In the higher level instances one mistake made by one person will wipe a raid.

3. Blizzard being the great normalizer will nerf T6 in the new xpac with gear in the first 2 – 4 levels of new content. We can’t have anyone more powerful than anyone else, can we?

Will this ruin the game? I don’t think so, but I also think that those who pay the requisite 550 badges and expect to waltz into Hyjal and drop Archimonde are in for a rude awaking.


On March 14, 2008 at 1:15 pm

I find it funny that the people in favor of welfare epics sounds like children, while the people opposing it have well thought out and stated arguments for the most part.

Why not just give everyone in game top end loot and be done with it, that way everyone can be equal and can do the exact same thing. No accomplishments, no reward for real effort.

Yeah you nitwits are the same people who came up with communism. GG.


On March 14, 2008 at 2:52 pm

For all you idiots ranting about how “Durr YOU CAN USE ARENA GEAR TO DOWN ILLIDAN” When in GODS NAME have you EVER seen ANY guild using FULL VENGEFUL to down a BT boss. Never. Ever. You will never see any of them do so. Why? Because Tier gear gives more spell damage and crit than any caster Arena gear does. Take for instance the Voidheart Crown and the Vengeful Gladiator’s Dreadweave Helm. The Voidheart gives +21 spell crit, and +40 spell damage. The vengeful’s gives +42 spell damage and 0 to crit. So let’s pose two questions: 1) How the hell is that better than T4? Let alone T5/T6? 2) There’s NOT EVEN any spell hit rating on ANY piece of PvP equipment. You’d miss EVERY SHOT on illidan. GG try again stop farming primals for your epic mount gold fund and actually look at what you’re wearing instead of saying to yourself:”my epix ar3 l3a7 and your blu3z sux all epix are uber n ilidan is a n00b.”


On March 14, 2008 at 2:52 pm

I am a GM of BT/MH guild and I think getting rid of attunements is fine way of making end game content available to the masses. For one, it means I dont have to drag my ass through SSC/TK for a few people that couldnt make it for the few weeks we all got attuned, secondly, I’d have loved to see Naxx pre TBC however my guild werent very well progressed, so I left and started afresh come BC.

Badge gear is already very good but there is a difference (on the whole) between T6 rated and badge gear. Now with 2.4 around the corner, surely the whole thing will just happen again. Sunwell gear will be subpar to T6 and any new Badge gear. It’s just Blizz’s way of letting everyone else play catch up and give them the opportunity to experience the content. It’s not taking anything away from the likes of me or any other raider. We raid because we want to, nobody forces us to do it.


On March 14, 2008 at 3:01 pm

Sorry meant T6 / Badge gear will be subpar Sunwell gear… doh :roll:


On March 14, 2008 at 3:17 pm

I like the changes for two reasons.

On my prot pally, I’ve been in Kara for at least 7 months. I have no gear from there. None. I’ve won the bracers from Attumen, which I replaced with the bracers from Heroic Arc and the Boots of Elusion which got replaced by the crafted boots from SSC/TK trash. Were it not for badge loot, I would not be able to progress.

Because I don’t have the skill? No. Reviews of my skill by those who’ve seen the end game say I’m one of the better pally tanks they’ve played with at any level.

Because of my lack of time commitment? No. I spent 4 nights per week, 4 hours a night raiding (those early days in Kara were hard because we just didn’t bring enough dps. We were a healer/tank heavy guild. funny, no?). I can’t do that anymore.

My progress was purely limited to gear.

I see these changes as letting later adopters and newer players skip some of the pointless grind to “catch up” content wise. As well, EVERYONE has experienced that situation where they say, “i’ve run that instance/raid X bazillion times and never, EVER seen that item drop.”

Badge gear is the putty which fills in the gaps.

Now, honestly, which is better, end game raid gear or badge gear? Duh, raiding gear. It is optimized for raiding. Badge gear is the stop-gap. Moreover, it allows folks to NOT grind on content for gear, but rather focus on the planning, coordination, and execution required to succeed.

Badge gear, while in many cases a HUGE upgrade, allows for a greater participation of those who haven’t, can’t or won’t incessantly grind raids for gear.

Is their gear better than MH/BT? no, not really. Mostly likely not at all.

Are they competent raiders? Depends. I’ve known some relatively new players that were intelligent, planned their gear progression, committed the time and were in end game less than 6 months after starting the game, post-TBC. And they were GOOD raiders. Should that person have to find a group of like-minded individuals who started at the same approximate time to do the same grind? I’ve also seen folks who bought accounts or who simply were caught up in a great guild and put in the time in 40 man raids. Didn’t do much, didn’t know their class, and even with all the gear, all the epeen from “playing since beta, seeing all the end game in 40 mans” etc, they still stunk. Put them in ZA and they can’t hold up. Good is good and bad is bad. When gear is the limiting factor, lowering the barriers to gear is a good thing. It allows good players to join other good players in end game.

Seems to me people are forgetting that people quit the game. If Blizzard didn’t do something to allow for folks to replenish the ranks of raiding guilds, each server would distill to 2-3 end game guilds on average. And BT would be considered irrelevant content.

Every hardcore raider knows which patch included which nerf. I still take pride in the fact that my guild dropped the fire wench in Mech before the nerf. Barely. But we did it. And when folks speak of their accomplishments, they STILL will tell you pre or post nerf.

Rest easy people. Those that think that doing H-Mech runs for 6 months will prepare them for end game are, as someone above put it, sadly mistaken. Skill>>>>> Gear. But since there are fights that are “gear checks”, I’m glad there is an outlet for good players who always roll crappy to progress.


On March 14, 2008 at 3:20 pm

I said two reasons.

1) The loot generator is a serious impediment to progression.

2) New/Casual players of quality are needed to fill the ranks of end game content viewers.

Sorry for not tying that together better. Didn’t see an edit button.


On March 14, 2008 at 8:48 pm

Personally I don’t really care bout the new badge gear nor do I care bout qualty of gems you get from the next patch but what gets me mostly is the fact that I did these raids where I had to do the attuments to get access to SSC/TK and MH/BT. It is a slap in the face to those who did the work and gotten to these places b4 the nerfs. Whats the reward in those who did the all that work and coulda just waited bout month or so to raid? OR perhaps people like a challenge because its more REWARDING than just to have stuff simplfied because someone just couldn’t click cubes at Mag or do cores at Vash. Just name afew.


On March 14, 2008 at 9:55 pm

I think a lot of people miss one VERY important thing. Being geared is only PART of the problem to suceeding in these raids. Knowing what the heck you are doing is a HUGE part of a sucessful raid. Gearing up people who haven’t done their homework will only let them SEE the instances and not necessarily down the bosses.


On March 15, 2008 at 2:40 am



On March 15, 2008 at 7:21 am

Look, its really not about elitism at all… I used to be in the top raiding guild (at the time) on my server… and it really was like a second job… You pour an incredible amount of energy into these encounter and bosses… there is no casual about it… the reason casual players never saw nax is b/c you couldnt go into it in a casual matter… you would wipe on trash and never see a boss… rooms of trash had their own little strategies to it. And i agree with blizz, as far as I have seen (i quit playing before we got to SSC, but we had downed grull and mag [back when he was hard]) it really is an incredible instance. The reason ‘hardcore’ raiders have the so called elitist attitude is partially due to the… feeling that comes with being on of, or the, first guild to down a boss, or to figure out a strat that works for your team… words cant describe how that feels unless youve experienced it… its not anywhere near the level things used to be back in the ‘tank-n-spank’ raids like MC days… there is an insane amount of work that goes into those things… so it should be understood that people are going to be upset when blizz says that it was all kinda for naught, b/c that thing you spent months to get or achieve? yeah we’re just basically giving that away now… Now on the flip side, I can complete understand that casual player will want to experience the same instances… make perfect sense… im not HC anymore, but i still wanna drop Illidan… but, as i said before… if you’re not hardcore about it, its not gonna happen… all the gear in the world wont make up for lack of skill. No, im not saying casual players are bad at their class, its just a different kind of animal when you have to have mass-coordination, where everyone has to be doing their job or you all die… no grey area. By definition a casual gamer is not goin to have that kind of dedication to the cause. They will either give up, or be forced to become ‘hardcore’ about raiding or about getting that one goal accomplished. All in all, my point is that of course people are going to be pissed about this. To them it feels like all the blood sweat and tears they put into the game is worthless and inconsequencial. Thats why blizz released new content to keep the raiders calm. though it wont matter much, b/c as ive said.. the casual guild wont be able to get through the “end game” instances in the first place… so you can buy some of the gear… what does that help you with? And to whoever said WoW is not about being hardcore, that its not for hardcore gamers- seriously? while its true that there are less hardcore gamers than casual, thats what makes wow such a maddingly good game. that its ‘for’ everyone… you can play this game in just about any way you want to and never get to the end in time to say “ok, im done, i have accomplished all there is to accomplish in terms of what i want out of this game” b/c blizz is constantly building on this universal storyline they’ve created. Thanks for reading.


On March 15, 2008 at 8:43 am

I, as a middle of the road player who started about a year preBC, not quite casual, not quite hard-core, see it this way.
I do not at all understand the problem with making raid instances more accessible to players. It is not as if they are making it so you can walk in, punch a boss in the face in one try and win, walk out and move on. The encounters are still challenging and require some amount of decent experience, gear, organization, and effort. Just cause ‘anyone’ can get in, doesnt mean they can win, even with their ‘welfare’ gear.
This ties into the PvP gear argument, :arrow: “Welfare” epics don’t teach a person how to play. Its that simple. Sure anyone can go get some with some time, but does that make them an expert player? No. Does it teach them how to down Illidan? No. Its not just the gear that makes a player, its how you play, your attitude, and how much time you’re willing to commit to things like instances and raiding, and how skilled you are at completing those places.
The guilds who are ‘elite’ and what not now, will still be the FIRST to clear any new content, no matter how hard or ‘dumbed down’ it becomes. Their greater organization, dedication, and skill will still shine thru.

I see nothing wrong with making more of the game a bit more accessible to more players, and there is still enough challenge. It will still only be the people who show some extra dedication and skill who will see the true end game content. Sure a few guilds will get closer to it then they would have before, but what does it matter? It will still be these ‘elites’ that complete the content with skill and speed.
There is still plenty of room for ‘hard-core’ players to show off their skills.

So sure, theyre being a little more friendly to the ‘casuals’, but by no means do i see it as they are destroying it for the ‘hard-core’ players.

And besides, if anyone has the right to be upset about anything, its still the PvPers from preBC, if anyone ever got truly screwed, it was them. lol


On March 15, 2008 at 9:12 am

I agree with a few of the ppl who posted that you can get all the gear you want, but it doesn’t do anything for skill and experience.

I’m not hardcore, though I used to raid twice a week back when MC, BWL, ZG was the hot content. I was just a lock, but we all took the time to read over the sites they told us, learn our roles, and work together. I was lucky enough to be in a guild with people who liked loot but cared more about the experience and having an awesome time while getting good stuff.

Nowadays I only have time for maybe 1 or 2 5mans a week, and I only use my priest. However I am on a new server and I have to say you can see the change from being with people who played since WoW was released, to people who have just started since BC. It baffles me how some people hit 70 and still don’t know how to play their class to the best of its abilities. (There are websites out there available for everyone to learn, hell you can just read the wow class forums. But geez…READ! I mean really, don’t you want to play your class to it’s full potential?)

I’m not happy with a lot of the dumbing down of the game (I’m a glutton for punishment cuz I like challenge), but you know what, I will accept it because I have to realize in my gaming situation (and that of countless others), it’s the only way I’ll ever see BT/Hyjal. However I know that it took massive time, research and effort for those previous guilds to get there. Oh can’t forget discipline….something lacking in quite a few.

Just remember, we casual gamers may get there easier, but we will still have to learn the fights, fine tune our teams and die many times before we can say we have BT on farm. They can take attunement from Kara (DON’T YOU DARE BLIZ!) but it doesn’t make it any easier to get through.

A word to the casual gamer (from another casual gamer), if you do get the opportunity to hit BT/Hyjal (or any 10 & 25man), please take a few minutes to read up on the instances and your role in it. Many of you probably do, but some people go in to those places without any preparation.

Anyway, happy gaming and remember everyone’s entitled to their own opinion. :twisted:


On March 15, 2008 at 9:28 am

@ Dewayne
Hey if you ever decide to play WoW again come join us on Arathor. I’m bipolar and they put up with me and my attitude so your meds and playtime wouldn’t be an issue and we’re nice and casual and getting these guys ready for Kara.
Just hit me up with a tell or ingame mail on Silentangel.

Aptly put! (btw you sound like an Exigence member from DB)

oh and on this quote:
–c) I can only play 2 hours a day
- Don’t play WoW. All you’re doing is taking part in ruining a great game for those that care about these kind of activities. Play an actiongame, drive a car in a race, whatever. Just don’t play WoW.–

There are many days I can only play 2 hours…and many others I know. DO NOT tell me not to play WoW. It’s amazing what can get done in 2 hours. I can farm guild mats, help guildmates, run a 70 instance and various other things in 2 hours. I am in NO way ruining the game…how? I’m not in anybody’s way lol. So until people with this attitude start paying for our accounts, don’t tell us how to play or to stop playing.

Thanks bye! :twisted:


On March 15, 2008 at 11:16 am

The Removal of prequests sucks, i am a hardcore raider, have no life at all, and this seriously made me angry..
Imho, it would be enough for casuals to buy the new loot so they can progress better. Some people are doing nothing for their gear, now they will have to run heroics, karazhans etc to have their badges faster.
Also you can go straight up to Vashj and Kael now.. it would be enough these two things, but the prequests..


On March 15, 2008 at 12:44 pm

Speaking to the middle of your Report. Hardcore as you call us is still somthing we had to work for even if its just in a game… we spent countless hours getting grps working time proffesions and various other things. now random ppl can gear we worked are asses for were no elitest we just want to be able to show off what WE EARNED!!!

imo they should make a badge set close to somthing t5 not t6!


On March 15, 2008 at 2:50 pm

I honestly don’t think it has anything to do with elitist demanding credit or wanting superiority. I think it’s just frustrating that you put people through hell to complete content only to remove that content and practically hand it out freely.

I for one missed out on Naxx pre-bc so I know all about it. But perhaps it’s the order in which changes are being made. If you’re gonna make the game easier, just make it easier, don’t put people through hell and waste countless hours of farming consumables, wiping and repair cash. I feel that was already done w/ the transition to TBC where T2-T3 epics that were worked hard for are simply replaced w/ 63-65 BOE greens.

Again, I agree that content should be readily available to all players. But don’t wait for thousands of people to bust their ass for it and then just decide that not enough people are experiencing the content (translation: we want more money) and hand it out almost freely. It’s simply bad tact on Blizz’s part and to blame it on the ‘Elitist Community’ is cowardice.

Blizz claims they have the sense to make content more readily available to all players… Then have the sense not to waste thousands of paying players time.


On March 16, 2008 at 7:15 am

yo, i have a 70 gnome mage and dwarf hunter on azuremyst and ive only seen up to illhoof ( yes sad i know) but all i can say from what i have heard about SSC and TK they sound hard, now alot of ppl on my server were mad because of the heroic key rep required, they all sayd it would bring the undegeared nubs in greens into heroics, now imagine lifting Hyjal and BT attunments, you will be seeing a priest who just hit 70 in the lfg for BT or a tank with maybe 9k armor in LFG for hyjal, the top 2 guilds on my server havent even downed illidan, Rebellion (horde) has gotten up to council, ONE PIECE ( alliance) have only gotten to reliquary of souls i think, now imagine all these newbie guilds that are ranked maybe 28th on the server and are attempting hyjal or something.STOP THE MADNESS!!!!!!!


On March 17, 2008 at 3:49 am

My cousing is lvl 1 and wants to see Illidan too!!! It’s too hardcore now, requiring lvl 70! Nerf it plzz


On March 17, 2008 at 9:54 am

:roll: Oh boy, we have the Illidan down since the end of Oct. farming the
content since. We don’t care a single second if attunements are dropped. 90%
of all loot every week gets disenchanted. We’re about to crack the 200K Gold
mark with the Guild Bank. We’re giving out BT gems 4 free to the alts/twinks
for PvP gear or whatever. We’re down to 1 3/4 nights clearing Hyjal/BT.
Basically we are bored to death, a few weeks of fun runs to get the bear mount
cavalry farmed out of ZA for all our Raidmembers. WE ARE WAITIN’ 4 NEW CONTENT!
When 2.4 goes live you guys can run to the vendors – trade in all your badges -
and attempt your first steps in Hyal & BT all you want. We’ll be in Sunwell,
workin’ on progress, farmin’ the rep, creating tactics, droppin’ the Bosses & will be farming that content probably before most of you see Illidan down for
the first time. The best will always be faster than the rest … always! None
of the top guilds are complaining – we dont’t care. Haters can just inspect the
nuovo-riche T6 bearers – if they don’t have the Hyal Exhalted Ring -> /spit or
/laugh or whatever u need to do to “feel better” … *sigh*


On March 17, 2008 at 11:39 am

If anything, this is still a great change. I raid with one of those top US guilds on Korgath, and I know we are actually excited to have all this open up. It means our ALTs and our friends might be able to have good gear into the expansion. Gear will always be reset with something better, and the sole purpose of the game is to have as much people experience the content as Blizzard can. We have already seen it, and if all else, it makes recruitment a bit easier.


On March 17, 2008 at 11:49 am

to the hardcore gamers who play wow
i understand how you feel when blizz gives gear that you spent hours. days . months. and years of your life away to the masses but im sorry i played FFXI for 4 years and when you have to wait 5-9 months to get a pair of boots and you spend 5-10 hours a day farming pop items for bosses and then people who are the elite games with there hight and might guild/linkshell show up and train mobs so you wipe and lose your pop items and time.that proves to me that the elite player is the player who understands what is like to start rom the bottom and work his way up and at the same time understands that not everyone has the time to play 40+ hours a week.i think those of you who have an objective look at the patch comming up and have worked hard for your gear and still think its a good idea are the real hard core gmers becuse you realize that your group did it and your gorup can take on any task blizz puts in your way in comming patch’s or exp.
those of you who are ing about this patch and you posts show your age,people like raidleader are why mmorpg get a bad name and why thay put warrnings at the start screen stating you have a real life friends and family. in the end the narsistic attitude of people like raidleaderis why i left FFXI
and swore i would never play another mmorpg. luckly my best friend of 15 years and his wife and 10 other friends got me to start paying wow. we are now building a guild for noob players to teach them how to play the game and help build the fundamentals for them to do raids so this patch will help us out immensely. why should a guild have to farm the same run over and over to get gear on a chance base just so we and try and do some over the higher raids not saying we won’t do the instances from start to finsh i feel that every person should run every instance atlest 1 time if not more its the only way to get good at working to gether as a group but this is a gam and not a job so why take all the fun out of the game by makeing it hell for everyone to get some halfway decent gear. and people dont think they know it all just becuse there 70 or they have pvp epics.but hard core block head wont ever give people a chance becuse they didnt sweet blood and gain 100+ pounds senting in frount of the pc’s for months trying to get gear so they could show it off the get the recognition they dont get in real life. for those of you who read my post and are not 70 and raiding best of luck to you i hope your server has some good people that are welling to help you out. as for the auther of this post i think your view is grate,everyone should get a chance at BT on my server there is only 1 guild trying and they still havent gotten a third of the way thru it.


On March 17, 2008 at 11:52 am

If you want to see end game content and get end game loot, work your ass off to get into an end game guild, where you work together with 24 other people working just as hard progressing through the end game.

I do not agree with the argument that developers want everyone to see the content. Thing is, everyone already can see the content. They just have to work at it.

They ARE dumbing down WoW, but it makes the masses happy and that is who matters.


On March 17, 2008 at 11:55 am

I am a hardcore player. I have been farming Illidan for 4+ Months. All of the T6 gear in there is useless to the guild. At the end of the day, the attunements being lifted won’t matter because we have Sunwell. At the end of the day, the heroic badge gear is going to give me and my members upgrades. And let the casuals have equal gear, they will still get outperformed so what does it matter?\

I AM FOR 2.4!!!


On March 17, 2008 at 11:58 am

In MMO’s the casual herd of players follows the hardcores around. If Blizzard continues to erase the benefit of being hardcore vs. casual, their game will fail once a viable alternative MMO comes out. WoW got it’s start by catering to hardcores, not casuals. They may all pay the same, and hardcores may cost them more, but casuals won’t stick around if the hardcores go somewhere else.

Cerias Shadows

On March 17, 2008 at 12:03 pm

My Response to this article, In short I disagree. Its blizz’s fault and this bandage won’t fix it.



On March 17, 2008 at 12:07 pm

They are not dumbing down World of Warcraft. They are creating an entirely new game: World of Casualcraft.

They are already rewarding people with better loot from Arenas than you can get in many slots from raiding. Arena points are guaranteed to give you loot you want, as opposed to raiding where you get shafted on drops.

Guilds that are too stupid to kill Vashj or Kael do not need hand holding through Black Temple. These are BARELY gear check fights at all. Anyone who has been clearing SSC and failing on Vashj will have the gear needed to kill her. This means they are just too stupid to do it.

This is nothing like removing the attunements to SSC/TK. Those were just annoying quest lines that people would all eventually do. The requirement to kill Vashj/Kael is a right of passage to entry to Hyjal and BT, not to mention Rage Winterchill is the easiest boss in the game.

This DOES devalue what people that have come before have done. The oohs and aahs that people gave them for being the first will disappear once they are given a free key to BT. The bosses in BT are NOT hard, at least the first 4. They were gimmie bosses that were rewards for guilds smart enough to work together to kill Vashj/Kael.

Why not remove the SR requirement from Mother next? Or remove the need to kill Illidan to get Warglaives? Where does this noob-coddling stop?

On a last note: nerfing Magtheridon.

There are two reasons guilds cannot kill Magtheridon.

1) They are too retarded to beat the encounter.
2) They are too retarded to realize that they can beat the encounter, and do not even attempt it.

That is all.


On March 17, 2008 at 12:10 pm

It’s not that high level guilds want to feel superior, for all the effort they put day after day recognizion is I think the least thing blizzard can do.

Some kind of reward and a tittle (that would not be obtainable after the nerfs they do, because it gets easier)

I don’t know but this kind of stuff made me sick and i’m not wasting my time anymore on wow.


On March 17, 2008 at 12:13 pm

Every bit of content in the game is available for everyone that pays their 15$ a month to see and experience, right now. The ‘content’ is not just a new instance to zone into, or a new boss to fight. The ‘content’ is also the path traveled to reach that destination. By removing attunements, bridging gear gaps, etc, you have to realize that Blizzard is actually REMOVING content. That’s what you should be complaining about.

S i g h

On March 17, 2008 at 12:17 pm

Nice post. I like it. I’ve thought this myself but I have never bothered to interact with this sort. They don’t have any arguements strong enough to penetrate my solid opinion about this. It’d be like (I pvp) we don’t let these kind of people (hardcore raiders) join our part of the world. So if they try to enter Lake Wintergrasp, it will be like an invisible wall and a text saying “You need higher skills in Player vs Player to enter this area.”, I mean what the ? C’mon, blizzard look at us with equality and the elitist pretty much tells them and the casual gamer to off. I AGREE ON ONE THING THOUGH. The prequests should remain, because it’s fun. It’s lifting & encouraging to continue the progress. Anyways, I don’t really bother with the elitist kind I pretty much tell them die and then I don’t think about it. But I would like to see the dungeons anyways, because I’m all about design and blizzard knows how to play it. Cheers Ron, good hunting to the casual gamer & keep it up hc raiders. If you truly are “the best” (if that’s a term you think you can use in a game) you will make sure of it and still be the glorious.


On March 17, 2008 at 12:20 pm

*Quote* “Does this make me hardcore? Nah. We only raid 3 nights a week, 3-3.5 hours a night. I rarely raid more than two of those nights. However, we are still progressing, and we’ll be ‘over the hump’ before the attunement is lifted.”

That makes you “Hardcore”. On my realm, the top guilds raid 3 nights as yours does, and they do it for 3-4 hours as you do. They are “hardcore” because they put forth the EFFORT to get things done. I have been in a “hardcore” guild and a “casual” guild. The difference between the two is vast, mostly in the dedication and effort put forth to down bosses and see new content. The fact that the “casual” players don’t see top end raid content is justified by their lack of ambition. I WANT to see BT/MH, but I want to see them because of my effort, not because Blizzard hands it out. The Hard content was made hard for a reason, for the core players to learn fights; kill bossse; and feel accomplished. Now that Blizzard is going to be giving out top end gear for badges, lift attunements, and even dumb down boss fights just so casual slacker players can SEE it is alienating their core gamers. This game didn’t become a huge success because of the instances that everyone got to see, like Scholomance or Stratholm or even UBRS, it became a huge success because of their top-end content.

From what I’ve experienced, casual players are casual not because of their lack or skill or time, but because they simply do not care to see new content. They care about seeing new and better loot, but they wouldn’t care if they were killing Illidan or a giant slug, as long as the loot is “phat”.

Now that I’ve addressed you response, I’ll address your actual article.

Blizzard IS dumbing down WoW. You can’t deny it, they are making it easier for the less skilled players. Now argueing whether this is a good change or not is what you really want to do. Blizzard made a mistake with Arena Gear. Namely, they gave the items you can earn from Arena Rewards too high of an Ilvl(Item Level). The stats on these items are on-par with T4/5/6 in respect to S1/2/3. This was their biggest mistake to date, they allowed easily accessible pvp gear to be comparable to effort-requiring raiding pve gear.

Assuming I am wrong about this, and that Arena gear was a super awesome idea, then the casual gamers should’ve been satisfied with their “welfare” epics from Arena and left the raiding to the real players. However, when they got their on-par epics to the Tier gear, and arena was done with for the season, they wanted to get into raiding. Well they had this super awesome gear that they just got, and so they applied to a raiding guild. The raiding guild looked at the gear stats the casual gamer had and saw it was well above minimum to get into their raids. Whether it be S1 for Kara, or S2 for SSC/TK, or now S3 for BT, these casual gamers got into hardcore raiding guilds with little effort. Now they are going into the raids, not getting any new loot because their pvp gear is “teh hawt sause” and they still are not caring whether they see Illidan or a giant slug die.

The truth is, if these casual gamers go into SSC/TK/BT/MH, will they really care what they are seeing? If they wanted to see this content right now, they could with some effort. But they don’t care, that’s why they aren’t in those instances right now.

In my opinion – blizzard just wants to show off their hard work to all the retard kids so that their retard friends can join WoW, get their character to 70 in a month and also see this content. This is Blizzard being greedy and wanting more money. If they really wanted more people to see their hard work on their super sweet content, they never would have implimented the attument quests in the first place.


On March 17, 2008 at 12:22 pm

With the dropping of attunements, I’ll actually get to see that content. I have always known I didn’t have a chance in the nether at getting there the hardcore raider way. I really don’t see the problem. The hardcore raiders did the attunement; they have a title that many won’t ever have. I envy those titles, I respect someone with it. They raided for their gear; they have a nice shiny matching set instead of a combination of drops, crafted, and badge loot.
The key is Blizz not toning down the difficulty of the instances themselves. If a guild gets a couple of heroics on farm and buys all their gear off of badges, they will still not be able to pull off black temple or the sunwell because they won’t know how to work as a 25 man team.
I origionaly thought it was a bad idea, but I’ve realized its the same as dropping the keys for heroics down to honored. I am still only honored with thrallmar. Heroics are my only way to get rep, as Shattered Halls seems to be taboo on my server. So the lowering of those keys is good for players in my spot. If players aren’t good enough to be in heroics, or they don’t have the gear, they’ll find out very fast in the form of catastrophic wipes and repair bills. The 25 mans are the same way. If you don’t have the skill, all the gear in the world won’t let you clear the raid.
I want Naxx to require the poetry in motion level of coordination on the four horseman that the 40 man version did (never ran it, seen the video). I want my guild (currently gearing up in kara) to get our butts handed to us when we first step into 25 mans. That’s how hard it should be. Gear comes with time, no matter skill. Both are needed to win in the endgame raiding.
Those that are ing are missing the point. You did it first, you did it the hard way, you did it before easy badge gear. All that gear will be replaced in the expansion anyway. You should be proud of your accomplishments. But instead, you are being elitist jerks(no offense or relation to the namesake theorycrafting group), and thus there is only one proper response to them:
QQ more n00bs

Ralowae and BlackTooth, Zangarmarsh


On March 17, 2008 at 12:22 pm

I’m slightly confused as to why Blizzard is doing this on a business standpoint. I understand it’s best to keep they majority of your consumers happy which happen to be casual players, but the random drop system for loot has their consumers playing the game a lot longer then a guaranteed badge drop. Strictly based on profit, if you have the consumer playing the game for longer, they will pay more money.

If the only way to get the best gear in the game is to spend large amounts of time in game gearing up and waiting for random gear drops to progress to new tiers of raiding, then wouldn’t that make the player spend more time in game? Or, is the average casual player getting frustrated that they will never get the best gear so they’re just giving up?

Also, why is Blizzard attempting to make WoW into an e-sport? In balanced gear each class is by no means balanced. I am interested to see if the players in the tournaments pick the same classes and races and if that is intended by Blizzard to be part of the strategy or if the intention is to level the playing field.

What does player skill have to do with one spell or ability that is guaranteed to beat a certain class?


On March 17, 2008 at 12:28 pm

Get over it. If you dont make wow your life, Your going to suck at it, and your going to be a loser noob who nobody cares about.

Ron Whitaker

On March 17, 2008 at 12:29 pm

@ Cerias Shadows: I don’t disagree that the mudflation is getting a bit out of hand. In fact, Blizzard has stated (I’ll have to go dig up the quote again later) that the gear progression won’t be as steep with WotLK. IMHO, that’s a good thing.

@TaurusOx: You say “This game didn’t become a huge success because of the instances that everyone got to see, like Scholomance or Stratholm or even UBRS, it became a huge success because of their top-end content.” Nothing could be further from the truth. The bulk of WoW players don’t raid, and never have. The majority of players are casual, and the fact that Blizzard is casual friendly is the reason the game has become the most popular game ever created.

I would remind everyone that both hardcore and casual players are important to the WoW as a whole. Blizzard would do well to keep that in mind and try to give each group something to strive toward in the future. However, opening up content that hardcore folks have already farmed to death isn’t killing prior accomplishments. If anything, letting folks see those encounters that you’ve already mastered should increase their appreciation of your effort.


On March 17, 2008 at 12:30 pm

Every “hardcore” raider needs to step back for just a moment a realize that there actually is actually a business behind this game and that any one of us would probably make the same decision if placed in the developers shoes. Sure you can mope and groan about how this is horrible (I certainly do) but guess what, the change will happen and most of you will continue to play.

I am (or was depending on if you define hardcore by playtime) probably about as hardcore as they come. My guild was the 7th guild through BT and to be honest the majority of us really don’t mind all the badge loot. At this point in the game almost all of us either barely play since we raid one night a week (I guess we’re casual now) or level alts which now can make use of all this new badge gear.

I imagine that the people most turned off by the new badge loot are the “hardcore” guilds that just recently cleared BT within the past few months. They just spent an enormous amount of time clearing through every instance to finish off Illidan. Of course these people won’t see much sympathy from the actual hardcore players since many of us view them as trash anyway.

The change I am most annoyed with actually is the removal of the BT attunement for the specific reason that Blizzard stated that the first three bosses in the instance were made to be easy as a reward for completing the attunment.

I would say the difference between top 20 guilds and everyone else is that the top guilds put far more emphasis on kills and skill than gear. I would be very interested to see if anyone else shares my view. Besides, we were already helping casuals get gear long before this patch by selling raid epics for gold. All Bliz did was give them an addition option of farming badges instead of farming gold and give us a new intance to sell gear from.


On March 17, 2008 at 12:32 pm

Let’s say there was no hardcore raiders. The player-base was 99% casual players that were nowhere near to depleting the content, and everyone was happy with having something to work on. Do you think Blizzard would still work their ass off making new content? All those guilds stuck on Vashj/Kael wouldn’t be seeing MH/BT/MT this next patch. The next patch would be more like the early patches of TBC, with nerfs to the current bosses so people could deplete the content.

It’s pretty simple, nothing will evolve before it has to, and the more the players push for changes, the more it will change. Sometimes good, sometimes bad, but atleast you’re getting somewhere.

The idea of a MMO without people pushing the edge is just that, an idea. There will always be people on top, no matter how hardcore or not you would judge them, and they will always be whining. If it’s not about not having any content, it’s about the current content being too hard. It’s unavoidable, and a necessity.


On March 17, 2008 at 12:33 pm

It is not about removing attunements or giving out stuff for badges that is a problem. There is from my view 3 kinds of players in wow. 1. The casual gamer those who Blizzard wants to reach out to aka ~9,9mill players 2. The players and guilds who think they are “hardcore” cus they are somewhere in the top 999999-100 and 3. The guilds who usually hit content first and make the tactics for everything and shows the way. Now to get to my point, group nr 2 is the ones complaining about attunements being dropped and gems for badges and group 1 is the ones complaining about everything they can’t do in 2h time when they get home from work and are done with their family and read the goodnight stories. I just wanna say that the REAL problem has 0 to do if Blizzard choose to make everything easy obtainable after what almost 1 year of farming Black Temple and Hyjal so i actually don’t care but the problem is when Blizzard does this to cater everyone AND screw around with new 25 man instances..first they thought adding some gathering item for Sunwell was a good idea but they removed it..sure i for one is happy cus now no EU realm or guild got more advantage then anyone else, same for US obviously. Instead they make the gates open when Blizzard feel the time is right wich make it VERY unbalanced between US and EU. US always gets the patch first and there is nothing to say about that but this way US will have a big headstart in clearing content. Im not gonna say it will turn out this way cus we know from previous instances that having 1 day advantage means nothing but i do think it is stupid to do something like this and atleast what i think, is what piss the real “hardcore” guilds off..and hardcore is not defined if u spend 24h’s and expression for the guilds doing everything before everyone else got there. I do not have an oppinion that says i don’t think casuals shouldnt see anything or get anything..but the little competition there is left for PVE should not be touched it should rather be improved..we are a small bounch of guilds who really love the game when it comes to progression..but it slowly dies out and recently over a short time some oldtimer top guilds stopped to care after Blizzards changes to the game and i don’t think it all has to do with casuals gettin stuff easy now..i just think that in general there is to little or close to no options to have a decent progression race between guilds. Another thing that have gone totally mad and is not working anymore is PTR..PTR is also the reason to the whole downfall of PVE progression, races. The old days were better, when people actually just played the game for what it was and Blizzard didn’t fiddle around with the possibilities to havea decent PVE progression race. I have never seen this many people from top raiding guilds complain and be so active about something Blizzard have done as now..the fact is that we could live with what we had before cus it was working..atm it is not, we ask for close to nothing the small minority we are and we aint after much either. I went a little bit away from the whole attunement/gem discussion but I think the problem is here rather then how much i can get for my badges.


On March 17, 2008 at 12:34 pm

It’s not enough that you have to do pvp to be good in PvE(an example would be the spellcaster S3 dagger wich is the best dagger in-game for a spellcaster), now they want to make the casuals equals to the raiders. That’s just stupid.

The raiders get more customers to blizzard by beating those bosses and by making hundreds of videos of it wich are posted all over the internet(that’s how I started playing this game. I’ve seen a video of a guild killing Kel’Thuzad and I liked it). A video with a lvl 70 killing hogger will never attract more customers.

If there won’t be anything special for the raiders untill the next MMO comes out (Aion, Conan or warhammer), Blizzard will lose alot of they’re customers:
—PvP’ers will leave due to the imbalance of the arena, the stupidity of the BGs and the constant nerfs
—PvE raiders will leave due to cosnatnt PvE nerfs that “balance” the arena but screw the PvE, and due to not be special with anything comparing to the rest of the servers. Playing 4-5hours a night, another 3-4hours of farming to be able to raid those 4-5hours and be equal to someone who playes 1-2hours a day but has karazhan on farm is just stupid.

Yeah, you’ll say “but raiders will have a new title”. That title sucks. Who the hell wants to have the title of “Hand-job of a’dal” over their head?


On March 17, 2008 at 12:34 pm

“The key is Blizz not toning down the difficulty of the instances themselves.”

THIS is the argument everyone is making. They are dropping attunments but the instances themselves are still hard.

BS. Kael and Vashj are 200times harder than at least 7 bosses in MH/BT.

Making it easier, making it quicker, making it less work IS DUMBING IT DOWN. How can one argue against that?


On March 17, 2008 at 12:35 pm

“Let the folks in casual guilds get their badges, and their gear, and their shots at the top raid instances. They’ll have fun, and Blizzard will reap the rewards of a happy playerbase.”

It would be considered “fun” for most players if they were given whatever they wanted from Illidan’s loot table for free, too. After all, why punish casual players because they have work or school or whatever else and can’t dedicate the time to raiding? Clearly, every rogue and warrior should be handed warglavies, it means they’ll have more fun, right?

While I agree to an extent that content should become available for a larger player base, it absolutely does water down the game. What’s the point of a reward without having to work for it? The reward becomes meaningless, a mere icon, and yet so many players are sufficiently dim to consider it valuable, and so they complain about how few people will see the content, how much they need their own gear upgrades, and how unfair it is that casual players can’t see Illidan.

It’s hard to blame Blizzard–at the end of the day, their job is to make money, and they do it well. No, I blame the idiot players who insist on treating handouts as valuable commodities. This is just another example of the masses leaching off those who dedicate time and effort. Because some people reached a level of content means that everyone should get to? Ridiculous.

Pre-BC, I started in a social guild. We got ~10 60s and decided to merge with another in order to raid. We progressed through MC and got Nef on farm shortly before BC came out. At any point, I could have left for a guild working through Naxx (their MT was a good friend of mine)–but I recongized that the game is fun because of the rewards you receive for putting in your own time and effort–for improving your own gameplay–rather than riding the coattails of others. How hard is that concept?

The casuals calling for “Illidan for all” will never be satisfied. They don’t want to play the game, they’ve just become convinced that purples = fun and that the “old” content is worthless. It’s a simple difference. I pay $15 a month to get good at the game, and reap the rewards available from that proficiency. Those so happy about this change pay $15 a month to be told, however indirectly, “You’re a winner, too! Look! You can go into BT and get epics! Being “good” at something is fun!”


On March 17, 2008 at 12:48 pm

Blizzard is very good at making money, therefore they should know that if those 5-10% of the WoW playerbase that like to raid, are not happy, Blizzard will not be happy. Those 5-10% of the players gets the $ to blizzard, not those 90% who spend all the time in a 50yards zone wich is called arena or wich spend their time learning the tactics to beat hogger.

WoW is becoming dull, old, and has some very crappy graphics. When the 1st game wich will prove to be a challenge for raiders(Aion or Conan sounds good) or for pvp’ers(warhammer sounds awesome for pvp) blizzard will realise what stupid mistake they’ve done.


On March 17, 2008 at 12:49 pm

Let me clarify–

No, the removal of attunements and the introduction of ridiculously powerful badge gear will not hurt me. I will continue to play, and raid, and I will enjoy myself doing so. My BT instance will be exactly the same regardless of how many others on my server are fighting Najentus.

However, those changes promote the attitude so often held by players for whom I have little respect. Namely, the attitude that because warcraft is just a set of pixels that they pay for, there should be no significant causal relationship between effort and rewards. I am thus against these changes indirectly, in that if the attunement requirements are instead maintained, and badge gear kept in line with a more reasonable item level, then the players with those attitudes I cannot respect will be more likely to quit. Of course, those players could attempt to say the same about “hardcore” raiders, in the opposite direction.

I’m fine with nerfing encounters over time. For example, casual players can level to 70, then go see Naxx. I just think Blizzard is doing so far too quickly, and, as a result, fostering an attitude among the community that devalues not only those upper tier raid instances, but also the idea of effort/reward across the game as a whole. The ease of picking up PvP epics is another example of this trend.


On March 17, 2008 at 12:52 pm

The threads about the ever-nerfing of wow tend to be comprised of mostly casual gamers getting their built up angst out at the hard core. They are the majority, though that’s usually the wrong group to be in. I can’t blame them for feeling this way, but wow is a lot like life. You get out what you put in, and you’re only going to go as far as your skill will take you.

Blizzard has an impossible task. You can’t make a room full of 10 people happy, much less 10 million. I was pissed when I heard about the attunement nerfs, but I got over it. Maybe it was a little elitism, but mainly I felt that all the work I had put in had been devalued. I don’t think this is really the right way to feel about it however. Life is always going to be about what you’re doing next, not what you’ve already done. Just have to keep plowing forward.

I will add that the attunement nerfs are helpful to the hardcore guilds. Eventually, people leave the game, and you need people to step up. Having a pool of geared people that can step in can save a guild, or at least help things keep moving.

And to all the casuals spouting profanity and ‘get a life’ I offer you this:

If your I win button resides on the front of your computer, push it already. You’re not accomplishing anything.


On March 17, 2008 at 12:52 pm

The relative worth of virtually any item in World of Warcraft decays over time.

After TBC came out, I spend all my game time on grinding honor for the blue PVP Set you could buy for it. After I got it, I quit for six months. When I signed back on, the set had basically become worthless.

The only difference in this case is that now it is happening to the hardcore crew instead of regular players, and they are more vocal about it.

I wish the game were designed in a way that achievements kept their worth, no matter how the game progressed. For instance, I have the complete Tier 0 Set, which looks great. I would love to keep wearing it, however, any level 1 critter in Outland would probably own me with it. I would love to complete my Tier 1 and Tier 2 sets, but it’s impossible to find a raid group for it. And besides, the items are worthless.

And for the record, I will be happy to finally get a decent looking set with Patch 2.4 with the faction PVP Sets. I hate to look like a transsexual color-blind cow hippie!


On March 17, 2008 at 12:58 pm

So basically, if you’re a minority, you deserve to have a great steaming dump taken on you?

dumbing down the game

On March 17, 2008 at 12:59 pm

this is the main reason i just recently quit the game. i think, allthought extrenely more profitable, blizzard is makig the game far to easy. i would consider myself one of the elite and am extremely pissed that everything i have worked on can now be accomplished by doing heroic mech. Blizzard needs to make the game easy for all the 11 year old boy nightelves so they can keep draggin all that money from subscriptions in. who cares if the actually GOOD peopel in the game quit, blizzard is still makin millions.

TEAM RATING REQUIREMENTS WAS A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION! havent you noticed how many fewer players are walkign around in s3 weapons when u need an 1850 for it! i know tons of peopel who rock 1300 teams and still wear all their 4/5 vengeful. i know my opinion wont change blizzard, but im moving onto a game that might actually reward me for being good. thanks if you read this far.


On March 17, 2008 at 12:59 pm

See Hardcore raiders aren’t upset that people get to see content. WE WANT people to see the content.

What we DON’T like, is the gear that you can only get from BEATING the content being made available to anyone who can clear Karazhan every week. That is just plain retarded.


On March 17, 2008 at 1:04 pm

I’ll make this short. I really feel that removing the attunments and adding the badge gear is a bad idea. However, like many have said above me gear doesnt give you a boss kill. I really think guilds stepping into BT for the first time, without full SSC/TK gear are going to find Naj. a very hard fight. And if they get past that, Bloodboil / ROS / Gorefind will be huge hurdles. Of course this is barring any major nerfs, which I’m sure will come but, probably not for a while.

What I’m trying to say is be prepared for the flood of people claiming that “insert one of the above mentioned bosses” is to difficult, plz nerf him.


On March 17, 2008 at 1:10 pm

you ing retard; gear doesnt = skill; its not an elitist position on the game its just the plain fact that the people that cant play it as well shouldnt have access to the top end gear – end of story. It’s like any other game for a console or computer; you dont see the end of it unless your good enough to complete it. I didnt raid hardly @ all pre-bc and back then epics meant somthing. Now they DONT. Might as well make everything blue cause its more common than anything else. Rare = Common … well, rare aint common anymore should blues become epics? WTF you know where im comin from honestly.


On March 17, 2008 at 1:10 pm

Hahahaha people think gear is the issue when dong tier 5/tier 6 content, thats great. When blizzard figures out that a majority of the players who haven’t seen the content just flat out SUCK at the game, thats when they will make this game literally a 1-2 button smash. Gear makes it easy sure, but comeon its not hard to put out 1k dps with a frost mage in full FSW. People JUST SUCK. Yes go ahead and say its an elitist comment, but gee wiz people who play this game really just suck. Go hand them more gear, maybe they’ll figure it out one day.


On March 17, 2008 at 1:17 pm

I see both sides of the argument, as I used to be a casual since I had a bad school schedule for raiding, then once I got a better schedule I was able to join a raiding guild, and have almost cleared BT, and have cleared Hyjal.

Even as a casual, I didn’t think that the top tier gear should be given to people who did not raid. I was not upset when the SSC/Tk attunements were taken off, because BT/hyjal offered another Tier of gear/raiding. But with 2.4, there is not another tier of gear/raiding. The new raid instance is the same quality (basically, although a little better) than BT/Hyjal, so it’s kinda bs that all the same quality gear is being given to anyone who does some heroics.

The fact is, that it is not an elitist or exlusionist point of view to say that casuals should not get the top tier of gear/experience without doing the leg work to actually get there. Casuals don’t seem to see it from raiders’ point of view. You’re getting the same gear as us, for very little time effort or skill. The fact is that the best gear in game should be given to the best players/guilds, not everyone.

Basically casuals want a communist game where everyone is treated the exact same regardless of skill or time put in.


On March 17, 2008 at 1:21 pm

hmm think bout the other raid instances.. they put all this time into tk and ssc.. but wit this loot.. who wants to wast there time.. the only dungeon that will still see play, of the lower difficulty’s is kara.. blatently because of the badges u can get per week.. if blizzard really wants to solve this prob.. do something with what they dd wit za. the faster u complete it the better the loots.. that way a scrub guild that can only clear the place gets the norm loot and the hard core get all the bear mounts.. or even impliment a boss timer witch is set for the hardcore that when hit gives u the good loot.. and when not met gives u crappy loot :S


On March 17, 2008 at 1:22 pm

Ok, I’ll start this of by saying that I am more or less a hardcore player. I’ve been through BT/MH and I have 6 70′s in t5/t6. That aside, I can see where most of the hardcore players are coming from. I understand that you guys are pissed that Blizzard is nerfing the content all to hell and letting people who’s idea of a complicated boss fight is dodging infernals while enfeebled attempt t6 content. But my point is this: even though blizzard is letting players who haven’t gone through the progression of content experience endgame bosses, It doesn’t take away from what we did. I will still never forget the first time we did Mh and got shot way through the air and had no clue what to do because no one had concrete strategies for him. I remember the first time we pulled corehounds in MC and were killing them for 10 minutes before we figured out we had to kill them at the same time. Its all these discoveries, Its the feeling of being the first person on your server to hear Illidan tell me I’m not prepared that make this game special. Its all the memories of playing through this game, and the frustration from wipes, and the amazing feeling of killing the final boss after months of effort that make it all worth it. The shiny purples are just leftovers.

Who cares that that nub night elf hunter’s badge bow is as good as your bow of the betrayer? He didn’t experience that camaraderie and the utter glee that you did when you saw it dropped and knew you had the highest loot index in your guild. He has never experienced that and I feel sorry for him for that.


On March 17, 2008 at 1:26 pm

I’ve been in hard core guilds and casual ones. I see both points of view here. I do believe they have changed some game mechanics to dumb down the game. As a level 70 hunter, I chuckle over the fact multi-shot will no longer break crowd control. How hard is it to move to a position with your back to a sheeped mob?

I’m in a guild now that’s 5/6 SSC 3/4 TK. Wiping hard on Vashj and Kael. We plan on killing them whether it’s pre or post 2.4 and hope it’s pre. We’re well burnt out and geared out on the bosses up to these two and will welcome seeing the first few bosses in MH and BT. We’ll welcome the new badge gear. Despite all the new gear and dropping the attunements progressing in BT or MH will still take 25 people putting forth a great deal of effort. Farming consumables, repair money, reading strats is still necessary. Playing as a team with skilled raider is still required.

To the elitist hard core who have pushed the rock up the hill an infinite amount of times though…give them some recognition. Ironforge and Ogrimmar should both have a hall of records for server first accomplishments. A trophy room if you will. Give these players and guilds something to stroke their epeens over. A “I killed Illidan pre 2.4 patch” tabard or a special case to display the first Magtheridon head with a date of kill, list of the slayers, etc. They deserve some sort of cookie for their trail blazing efforts.


On March 17, 2008 at 1:27 pm

I enjoyed the game way more when I had to work for my HWL gear mixed with bwl , aq40 and naxx items. I remember sitting in org and getting tells “awesome gear man!

Nowadays I look to my left at the guy with 1400 rating 3v3 with full s3 gear because he buys arena points. I look to my right and I see people with better or on par items with BT because they farm 5 mans.

You can be really bad at this game but your character will be just as strong as a person who’s good at the game.


On March 17, 2008 at 1:30 pm

The non-hardcore players (I have a casual guild that is now running SSC and TK) are the one who subsidise the creation hard core content. It seems reasonable to me that Blizz and players get a return on their investment, even if it takes longer.

The hardcores can still be first and #1. Just remember to thank us casuals for our $14/month when some new instance only 1% of the population can see is released.


On March 17, 2008 at 1:31 pm

Hey, guess what folks, even though I’m sure it upsets some to hear this, this pattern will only continue? Why? It’s bad business for Blizzard if they don’t continue.

Look at it this way: if, say, even 5% of the playerbase clears all the game’s content to the end prior to Blizzard tweaking it to make it easier, they will risk losing that 5% if they can do something to guarantee the other 95% keeps playing. They will flat-out turn their backs on the hardcore community regardless of whether some or all of those individuals quit playing, because they’re a small portion of the player base. It makes much more sense for them to continue opening up content to the remaining 95%, because that keeps the overwhelming majority of their players paying their $15/month.

two sides

On March 17, 2008 at 1:32 pm

Just about every comment from a hardcore raider or someone that’s played since day one seems to have the same theme “Making the game easier is bad, only ppl who do nothing but raid should get to see anything cool.”

I’m inclined to disagree with this, I’ve played since day 1, I’m still rocking my First Seargent title. I can still quote strats from Garr, Rag, Nef and Vael and I remember when killing the Beast in UBRS was a huge deal. Even after all that I’m still in agreement with blizzard as to these changes, while I’m not too fond of the continued addition of new FPs I do think that making the game more accessible to casual players is a great idea. There’s too much depth to the game world to have it monopolized by a few ppl who are pretty much just waving their epeens around.

The vast majority of the people playing this game have other stuff to do outside the game: work, family, drinkin etc. The reason more people don’t raid constantly, aside from the previously mentioned reasons, is the most raiding guilds have a few good players that are a pleasure to be around and a legion of whiners that think their guild tag makes them gods among men both in game and in real life. This makes any extended stay in a “hardcore raiding guild” seriously annoying and why 10 and 25s are such a good idea, they let the guild trim the fat.

So really, if you’re so desperate to hold your virtual accomplishments over someone else’s head, go play Halo 3 with the frat boys so you can yell about how many points you’ve got and how big your is and the people that want to experience the game can go about it in peace.


On March 17, 2008 at 1:33 pm

It’s unfortunate that people are opposed to this lifting of attunements. At the same time, it’s funny that the raiders are upset about Badges of Justice.

At the release of 2.4, all raid bosses will drop badges. This makes all complaints of the badge gear invalid and gives cause for the person to be branded a hypocrite.

Therefore, unless the raiders swear to discard all badges per boss kill, they may not complain about the Badge of Justice rewards.

Obtaining badges is not easy as they say. I am geared with T4 and my guildmates are very well geared themselves, yet it takes a minimum of 5 hours for us to clear Karazhan. If you are not exhausted after 5 hours of nonstop play, then you can’t be human.


On March 17, 2008 at 1:34 pm

All this says is that blizzard is a sell out, instead of being content with having a great game they just want lots of money, shock


On March 17, 2008 at 1:35 pm


This article was obviously written by a scrub casual raider.


Give me a break. The author is one of those guys that wants to incorporate an aimbot to CSS so he doesnt have to even learn to aim.

Do the work, get the loot. If you dont, farm bgs for welfare epics.

Wow is full of terribads and catering to them will only push the quality players elsewhere.


On March 17, 2008 at 1:36 pm

“Obtaining badges is not easy as they say. I am geared with T4 and my guildmates are very well geared themselves, yet it takes a minimum of 5 hours for us to clear Karazhan. If you are not exhausted after 5 hours of nonstop play, then you can’t be human.”

OMG 5 hour karazhan?

It takes us less that 2 hours…..

Some dude

On March 17, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Dude, you suck hard and everyone that agrees with this sucks hard. If all you casuals want best of game than put some effort in it, it’s not ing fair that someone spending 1 hour a week playing wow can have gear on par with me who play 5 hours per day. That’s just pure bull, if you want imba gear or hard instances than ing work for it. And for that paying part, well it’s not my ing fault that you can’t invest so much time and effort, but that shouldn’t make you get everything for ing free. Casuals, you, go pay Sims you s.


On March 17, 2008 at 1:41 pm

“OMG 5 hour karazhan?

It takes us less that 2 hours…..”

Got a Youtube link?


On March 17, 2008 at 1:41 pm

I dont agree with the article, the changes in TBC is enough for most guilds to see the end game content.

1. 25man raids, lot easier to get going and create guild around.
2. 10 man raids with very good drops allowing for quicker 25man raid progress
3. Good craftable gear which also allows for quicker 25man progress.

Looking at almost any server most guilds are in a position to have cleared BT or are late starters. You cant really allow for BOJ gear and 5man farming to accrue you gear thats comparable to endgame content thats just insane.

For their to be any carrot for endgame content there needs to be something that drives people to do it. Content alone works once so its not enough or all guilds would just do it once and then skip it thus diminishing the amount of people seeing the content.

Rogues/Warriors ofc have their glaives as visual indication but not so much any other class. PvE endgame gear SHOULD be better, it SHOULD be visually more interesting.

But then again attunement was really screwed up but we all know why it was inplace, content wasnt finished yet and the attunement was a way to delay progress. Remove it by all means but the whole badge/pvp gear farming is getting ridiculous.


On March 17, 2008 at 1:43 pm

“Dude, you suck hard and everyone that agrees with this sucks hard. If all you casuals want best of game than put some effort in it, it’s not ing fair that someone spending 1 hour a week playing wow can have gear on par with me who play 5 hours per day. That’s just pure bull, if you want imba gear or hard instances than ing work for it. And for that paying part, well it’s not my ing fault that you can’t invest so much time and effort, but that shouldn’t make you get everything for ing free. Casuals, you, go pay Sims you s.”

We’re stealing your e-kingdom.

Seriously, take a couple of deep breaths and think about what you’re getting mad over.

A video game.


On March 17, 2008 at 1:51 pm

I’m for the changes that make the game more accessible to more people. Making the game more fun for more people is great. It just me as a raider to think about the time I put into learning encounters and getting attuned. Honestly for me these changes make me ask why were the attunements there in the first place?

If your intent is to make the content accessible to everyone eventually why do you make the people who enjoy raiding do things like get attuned. It wastes time they could be using on actually slaying dragons. I’m sure all the players hardcore and non just jump for friggin joy when they find out they need to do 15
quests before they can get into the new instance, and 4 or more of those quests
require a full 25 man raid to accomplish. If people aren’t ready for it they will fail end of story. Anyone can field a raid full of no talent assclowns and wipe to Naj’entus for 5 hours at a time, but you might actually need some of the skill others mentioned if you want to progress to say Illidan level.

I would say the only pressing issue of the game as it stands is the commercialization of the top notch arena gear. Personal ratings were added to regulate the accessibility of these top of the line weapons. Well do to very short sight pretty much anyone can get theirs for a nice 1-2k gold. The weapons/shoulders are actually supposed to make people say hey this guy must be pretty good at arenas. Now they just say I wonder how much his weapons cost. I’m not trying to sound like an elitist on this topic but the ratings were specifically put in place on these items to make them available for only the “elite” pvpers otherwise there would be no requirement whatsoever. I will admit it’s very frustrating to see a guy in half kara epics and half 70blues walking around with 2 vengeful gladiator slicers that he clearly earned.


On March 17, 2008 at 1:59 pm

just becuse people are geting epics from pvp or the patch dose not mean there is nothing left fro pve players there is a exp hitting the shelfs soon with im sure a butt lode of new instances for pve playes to fight with and once you get the gear from there it will be right back where it is right now


On March 17, 2008 at 2:04 pm

I actually think badge loot will have the opposite effect that blizzard wants.

Why do most people play the game? To see end game content but mostly to gear themselves up through running instances over and over. Today what happens when you run an instance and you have all the loot you want from there?? You aren’t as motivated to go there anymore if at all. This is the situation most BT clearing guilds are in, they are essentially bored with WOW waiting for the next instance (sunwell) to come out. Since raiding has slowed so much for them i.e. one night BT clear, they dont login the rest of the week and soon lose interest in the game and move on.

So now you introduce badge loots so that the casual guy can get BT quality gear. By doing that you pretty much killed SSC and TK. Why go there when your badge loot is better. Its just like going back to a 5 man when you have loot thats better, even heroic 5′s. So what is the casual guy gonna do when he has all his badge loot? Whats the motivation to play then?

The upside to this will be that casual guy can transition to hardcore guy much more easily because he will have good gear. However then it comes down to his skill level and whether he can perform. This can help top end guilds recruit much like dropping the SSC/TK attunements helped. It was easier to get people attuned to BT/HJ then.

I dont have a problem with the badge loot, hey I want my alts geared too :) But hardcore raiders shouldnt be brushed aside by simply stating they are the minority.


On March 17, 2008 at 2:06 pm

Remember that your time playing WoW is the most important thing you will ever do. Your time worrying/crying about how other people acquire gear might be the 2nd most important thing. So make the best of it!!! Its going to get you far in life!!!


On March 17, 2008 at 2:10 pm

I guess what I don’t like the most is that the new loot feels out of place. Risen said it best. WTF are tokens for tier 6 loot doing in a tier 4 instance? That just feels incredibly weird.

Second, slam the hardcore raiders all you want but the truth is this. If WoW loses the hardcore community, WoW loses, period. Remember what happened when all of the hardcore raiders left Everquest? Everquest became a shell of its former self. Like it or not, the hardcore players, whether that be raiding or pvp, are the ones that create a buzz for the game, get their friends to join, etc. Looking at MMOs throughout history, the casual players tend to follow the hardcore base around. If all the hardcore raiders leave WoW, how long before the casuals follow them because they want to play “the next big thing” too?


On March 17, 2008 at 2:15 pm

This article, in essence, shows pride in finally having a mmorpg that caters to joe “I want my epix now!!1″ average.

Basically catering to either impatient add kids and busy people who want to see the content now (cause their spoiled selves can’t handle less time investment in the game giving them less rewards “WAAAH I PAY THE SAME 15$ WAAH”) has somehow become positive?

What people fail to realize is making rewards easily accessible (including raid zones) devalues them in everyone’s eyes. Yes even the casual who might take a week or two to notice EVERYONE has the same s3 gear, or EVERYONE is running that same instance. How awesome is that, a game where everyone is doing about exactly the same thing wearing the same gear? That sounds SO COOL!

Another dude

On March 17, 2008 at 2:18 pm

I’m a raider in the best guild on my server, judged by the rate of progression for the entire history of my server.

I don’t hold some elitist attitude that I’m better than everyone, but I do hold some pride that my guild killed all these bosses, before they were nerfed and before attunements were lifted.. and I would find it hard to respect someone who jumped from badge loot to Black Temple, bypassing all of the months of raiding it took me to get to that level.

This is what bothers me. You all say that every player should have the chance of experiencing the whole game.. and I agree with you… but the whole game also includes SSC/TK.

If a burger flipper at McDonalds could afford to buy a BMW like a doctor or an engineer, what motivation would they have to spend a quarter of a million dollars on their education to get the same rewards out of it?

You can say “But WoW is a game! You’re real life analogies don’t mean anything!”

But WoW is more than a game.. it is a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game.. which in and of itself means your character evolves based on the time you put into it. It has always been like that.

Blizzard is definitely “dumbing down WoW” to cater to a higher player base… don’t think for one second that they are making these changes so the masses can see all of their hard work. They do it so the counter-strike players, the starcraft players, the sims players, and even the solitaire players can come into this game and get their instant satisfaction with little effort. While that spells more prolonged growth for them as a company, it means the state of the game and the idea of what WoW is and what’s kept the raiders here for 3 years has changed.

What happens when the hardcore raiders leave because there is no point to raid anymore? Who will there be to challenge Blizzard into releasing new content?

We can only hope that with all this extra money they are making, as if they weren’t making enough already with 10,000,000+ copies and subscriptions, that they can hire some new talent.

Yes, WoW as a whole will be weaker because of this. When you take away the motivation to better your character, you take away the reason to log into the game, and when you log in a few hours a week you begin to ask yourself.. is this really worth my $15 a month anyways?

If I wanted Sim City, Star Craft, or Counter-Strike and have nothing to show for my investment in those games other than a timesink and escape from boredom.. I’d play those.

But guess what.. those games are free.

I expect more from a game I perpetually pay for.


On March 17, 2008 at 2:20 pm

Getting angry at more guilds having access to the best dungeons in the game or players having access to some top of the line equipment is absurd. As an officer in a Black Temple guild I think its great that they are making it easier for us to include new people and gear up alts without having to ever set foot in TK or SSC again, unless we WANTED to. Having to attune new people to Black Temple and Hyjal is painful and a waste of 24 other people’s time.

And as for the gear? You don’t buy T6 gear with badges, you buy gear on par with T6 with badges. This doesn’t change the value of T6 in any way, there are still some who have it and some who don’t. Those that have it should still wear it proud. Do you also whine when your neighbor who has a job that pays less buys a similar sports car? Do you then cry to your mommy to get reassurance that you are indeed a better person?


On March 17, 2008 at 2:27 pm

I currently raid 4 nights a week, clearing Hyjal/BT. This however required alot of time devoted to learning and getting these instances on farm.

It’s not even “QQ Everything i worked for is getting devalued!” It’s….
I spend 150 hours to get the legendary item, to make my character look cool and do damage.

Blizzard makes it so it’s available to receive the item from a lesser amount of time devoted to it. Lets look at human nature, you very thoroughly dislike this.
If your buddy working at the office made 10 dollars more per hour than you, yet all he did was sit on his ass while you did all the work, would you get upset?

I could care less either way, this has just turned into casuals being completely hypocrites. Flaming people for spending too much time on a game that -you- play? Trying to reassure your existance by demeaning somebody else. A large majority of casuals are doing EXACTLY What they’re trying to say is so horrible and bad about “Elitists”

Would you play this game if all t6/ legendarys were available from a vendor? I think not, Even “Casual” Gamers play somewhat for status, Wouldn’t you pride yourself in having your nice t4 gear, or your full badge set, as opposed to some guy in full greens who never does anything to improve his character?

Sorry, i’ll get back to my main point.
There’s becoming a smaller and smaller gap between people, when there IS no gap, no one will play. plain and simple. Blizzard has been catering for people to raid all this time but, “I dont want to spend 5 hours a day on a game, which is my hobby, holy i wont have time to go onto the curse gaming forums and add completely useless information to an intelligent discussion!” Is the kind of attitude that prevents this from happening.

A-LOT- of SSC/TK Raiders are VERY upset with this too. They might not be “Elite” like the Top tier raid guilds, BUT. They have put in nearly as much time, just at a much slower pace, and would like to accomplish the kael killing before it’s completely nerfed to .


On March 17, 2008 at 2:28 pm

Sorry typo. It’s 4 hours a week. Spread across two nights.


On March 17, 2008 at 2:28 pm

Gear is irrelevant unless you can play well, badge gear won’t help casual guilds kill anything. I’m looking forward to hyjal general chat on 2.4 release :lol:


On March 17, 2008 at 2:36 pm

WoW, pseudo-journalism at its worst here. “Ron”, nice “facts”. I love how you invent these groups of players and then speak for them in order to hamfist your theory into a workable form. Truly great.

Bottom line: No one cares. People care about new spells, new dungeons, new daily quests. No one gives a rat’s ass about the rest except for clowns like “Ron” who like to invent conflict where none exists.


On March 17, 2008 at 2:38 pm

When I had the first earthshaker on the server (as a paladin) it meant something, I could walk into IF and people who had never seen an epic before would inspect me and themselves..

this is a competetive video game, the key word there being competetive.. as much as raiders want to tell you that they do it for fun, they don’t. They do it to beat out competition and try to be the best..

private servers have no lag, no spam, no idiots spamming you in tells, so why don’t people get together and raid on a private server? because the point of raiding is competition. Now that the countless hours of the hardcore players mean nothing, I can guarantee you they will quit within the next year and wow will be reduced to a game of people who hit 70, play a few months (because thats about the time it will take to get to the top) realize there is nothing left to do, and stop.

Another implication of this: players will have nothing to shoot for, look at the honor grind. Any idiot who spends time on getting honor can get all of the honor gear and (like me) stop doing battlegrounds altogether.. except here instead of honor we have badges, which are almost as easy to get…


On March 17, 2008 at 2:41 pm

It is, indeed, true that we a small percentage of raiders have seen Black Temple or into the depths of Hyjal. However, I would like to point out that Blizzard has also spent large amounts of time on the five man instances it provides. By creating barriers of entry for guilds to enter certain instance, Blizzard sets a sort of stratification system which keeps a player distribution spread across the content it provides. By removing these barriers, content is opened to all with few to no repercussions (save a repair bill or three) and, as such, the player distribution will become disproportionate – leaving the halls of Auchindoun silent. With the lifted requirements, it can be expected that a large influx from the “mid-ground” raiders, those in SSC/TK, will skip Vashj and Keal’thalas entirely. This will, to a lesser extent, result in another “Naxxramas situation.” Why learn the Keal’thalas fight when you can just go kill Rage Winterchill? Players dropped everything when TBC hit the shelves to level to 70, because the rewards were immediately greater and the work load lower. I see nothing to prevent this from occurring again with Keal, Vashj, and other “difficult” parts of SSC/TK.

Annother issue in balancing super-hardcore players with very casual ones lies in the gear differential. Blizzard has already addressed this, however, by providing specific PvP gear and introducing resilience, and thereby mitigating the effect of powerful PvE items from becoming abusive in a PvP environment. Because one can no longer effectively no-skill dominate other players with hard-earned, overpowered raid epics, the hardcore player has significantly less tangible gratification than he once did – causing him to QQ.

This leads me to discuss the aura of bitter resentment which has been discussed from a contingent of “hardcore” players. In part, resentment stems from having accomplishments, such as BT/HS attunment becoming antiquated and devalued. This is a twofold resentment, due in part to the fact that their efforts were effectively useless, and that the new generation of players will not get to (or have to, pending on your view) experience the same trials and joys which were previously requisite of even setting foot in such an sacred place as Karabor Temple (even though it’s desecrated). I feel that had I not killed Lady Vashj or Keal’thalas Sunstrider, seeing Illidan for the first time would have been much less meaningful.

By not having to prove one’s self in this World of Warcraft, but still being allowed access to the Black Temple, aiding in the defense of Nordrassil, and fighting alongside the likes of Akama and Maiev Shadowsong, I feel a large part of the Lore and immerssive effect of WoW is being detracted from.


On March 17, 2008 at 2:44 pm

People talking about skill while the subject is a MMORPG, makes me wonder. Most RPG’s mainly rely on the amount of time invested, since how could it be hard, everyone can read the best ways to do as much dps as anyone else. Only thing that could differ per person is how quickly you can understand and adapt a fight, talking about PvE here. The reward for the amount of time invested is the gear and so on the reputation for killing a certain boss as one of the first. Also just being happy of doing something with a group of fellow players and managing to progress.

Jason says:
“ Raiders. they are a minority and their flawed logic of time invested = skill is more evidence of their stupidity and short sightedness”

Kevin says:
“Blizz removing attunements? You’re no longer ‘special’ because other people can get into BT/Hyjal? Outraged that badges can buy loot that doesn’t revolve around a random drop system, but is equivalent? Are you CRAAAAAWLING INNNNNNN MY SKIIIIIIIIIN?

The choices for you are very simple. If this is so horrible for you, *quit playing.* Otherwise, cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it.

It’s that simple.”

The argument of ‘You’re a minority’ is getting silly already, like homeless people are a minority so we shouldn’t think of them at all. Ye sure, that sounds good (sarcasm). Also, skill? Ye sure. And Kevin, why even respond with such a post? Anyway back on the subject, shouldn’t people that invest quite some time get more rewards than players who do one single heroic a day? Yes say all the hardcore raiders, no say some of the casual players. Please note the ‘some’ since most of the casual players are happy with what they got and think it’s good that way. Thinking back of myself running around in blues when I just got 60 back in the days. How happy I was with the dal’rend set. And how cool it would be to do MC. It took time to work yourself up, but it was rewarding and gave a feeling of success. Now you shout in general ‘LF KARA’ and you’re set. Also 40man raid were pleasant, hard to manage but nice to progress with. Also someone said you would be able to every encounter with 25 quality players and 15 idiots, makes me wonder how they would down 4h men or C’thun.

When I started TBC I expected to sort of get the same feeling of when I got 60, but I didn’t. I didn’t bother to farm blue gear, why would I, I cleared kara the day when I got 70. Also I remember being so happy of getting t1 bracers, which I got from a long trade with an ace of beasts. Now getting an epic is just like getting a quite rare blue in the old days. Only thing equaling of getting those bracers is a legendary, which got quite more common as well.

Anyway, I thought people would prefer having something rewarding, instead of getting all the stuff way too easily. I wanted to say ‘I guess I was wrong’, but I think I’m not, it’s just a small part of the big casual group that wants it this way. On the subject of PvP, personally I don’t really like the arena pvp like I liked world pvp and doing some BG’s with a premade of some friends. But that’s prolly because I prefer PvE and the ‘big group’ idea of it, and I’m just not that much of a PvP’er.

Anyway, while thinking of maybe stop WoW or going casual, I still hope when I play WotLK they have something similiar to old system, even if that means I will be walking around in blues because I lack the time to start raiding seriously again.



On March 17, 2008 at 2:51 pm

So they open up content to everyone and allow t5/6 side grades avialable for running heroics. Now the content will be nerfed to hell because those guilds who cant kill Vash or Kael will maybe get a few bosses down before they hit a wall. This is where time invested and learning how to work as a raid come to play. Gulds who cant earn the attunments will struggle and get frustrated causing causal guilds and players to quit or whine till the encounters will no longer be a challenge. Now guilds who have earned the attunements will now blow through content and get loots (So hey come on in and get things nerfed casual players). This is not a elitist mind set but one of truth , look at how many nerfs and changes have happened to pve because of the new arenas and pvp push from WoW.


On March 17, 2008 at 2:57 pm

Naxxramas was superhardcore, yes.
It was hard, it required gear.
Only the truely dedicated players got to experience it.

It did NOT drive anyone away from WoW because they couldnt experience it. If anything it made the game stronger!

What happens when these “casual” (and bad… for quite a few, but not all players) get into BT and hit ROS/Gurtogg?

Those bosses will be nerfed into oblivion, so anyone can kill them.

Then all the hardcore people will leave WoW – because it no longer poses a challenge, and all the “casual” (read noob) will follow them, like they always do in life.

Remove Badge loot, add personal rating to all arena gear and do not nerf encounters. WoW will benefit from it.


On March 17, 2008 at 2:59 pm

I find it funny that all the elitists are all threatened by people getting gear that is good. And some how that means they’re going to go see Illidan.. yeah ok. I know a bunch of pickup nubs that know nothing about raiding are going to get gear for badges then they’re going to just go see Illidan. Sure.. Maybe they’ll be able to walk in the front door, and possibly even kill a boss or two (thougth i doubt it) but none of them are going to go visit illidan. .. if they were good enough to do that then getting gear never would have been a problem. if you can get to illidan, then i’m sure you could clear SSC/TK/Hyjal anyway. Personally i don’t blame Bliz for making this decision. Any company that alienates and locks out 90% of their customers from their best content deserves to go out of business. If that means they loose a bunch of premadona whiny idiots that judge their existance as a human by what they can do in a video game, then its an easy choice.

(Yes i do high level raids with my guild but were not elitists that judge our existence by what we do in a video game. It’s just a game for god’s sake.)


On March 17, 2008 at 3:14 pm


poor lige uve guys… no wonder REAL world r doomed… have u heard about EL Nino fenomenal? or even Iraque or TIbete problems? u dont care about it? good!!!

can u care about having in real life friends and not robots ???

DUDE geat a girl and make LOVE!!

poor life uve freaks…


On March 17, 2008 at 3:15 pm

“People talking about skill while the subject is a MMORPG, makes me wonder.”

A casual guild can easily get into t6 content if the players are good. Most people are terrible at their class, that is whats holding them back. If you can’t tell if skill is required, you for sure don’t raid.


On March 17, 2008 at 3:15 pm

agree! i play this for fun not for get food….

ridiculous and insane kids


On March 17, 2008 at 3:17 pm

for food*


On March 17, 2008 at 3:20 pm

dude they are kids and this is their lifes but not their fault! parents fault and markting! their parents r the one who should be banish from earth for so low culture interest in important life issues

Ron Whitaker

On March 17, 2008 at 3:25 pm

@Dave: “Remove Badge loot, add personal rating to all arena gear and do not nerf encounters. WoW will benefit from it.”

I would agree with this in part. Arena gear needs personal rating requirements, and the entire arena system needs to be re-examined. That, however, is another topic that I’ll get into in another post soon.

I think that the people who will benefit the most from the badge gear aren’t the folks running Kara all over the place. It’s people who’s just completed BT for the first time, or are mired in the middle of it. That badge gear gives them the opportunity to outfit their mains and/or alts so that they can finish BT and get into Sunwell prior to the release of the expansion.

Let’s face it, at the end of the day, people want to see Black Temple. However, nothing says they’ll kill a boss there. If you’re only running Kara, you’ll be hard pressed to adjust to a jump to that level of content.

But hey, at least people can get in there, fight some trash, and check things out. There’s nothing wrong with that.

As to nerfing encounters, I’m with you there too. I’m all for Blizzard revisitiing encounters to see how players handle them. If an encounter forces you into a certain group makeup, I think it’s poorly designed and should be adjusted, but they shouldn’t nerf bosses into the ground just so people can clear the content. Give them the key, and let them earn their way through. Lifting the attunements is more than enough.


On March 17, 2008 at 3:26 pm

“dude they are kids and this is their lifes but not their fault! parents fault and markting! their parents r the one who should be banish from earth for so low culture interest in important life issues”

From Nick Yee’s research:
The average age of MMORPG respondents was 26.57 (n = 5509, SD =
9.19); the median was 25, with a range from 11 to 68. The lower and upper quartile boundaries were 19
and 32 respectively. Thus, in fact only 25% of MMORPG users are teenagers.



On March 17, 2008 at 3:28 pm

Consider this:

There MUST necessarily be a “most difficult achievement” in a virtual world. If the “most difficult achievement” is answering the question: 2+2= ? , then the achievement is no achievement at all because it takes no time to complete and the number of people who can complete it is massive.

Be real about this. Don’t just call people out and say that elitism and exclusivity are “bad.” I won’t hear your moralist arguments against this attitude, because we all feel it.

It used to be awesome to be level 70 (6 days after the Launch of The Burning Crusade.) Now being level 70 is nearly nothing, you still have so far to go to catch up with the rest of the crowd.

All achievements are relative. The happy feelings you get from achievements are based on your perception of how relevant the achievements are, and your perception of this relevance will be strongly influenced by how many others have achieved the same thing.

Furthermore, this isn’t a single player game. It isn’t even a 6 player or 8 player game. This is a virtual world. Virtual worlds thrive on their ability to create a unique experience for players and gives the players the MOST freedom to achieve what they feel is relevant. In this virtual world, they will be forced to make decisions regarding who their friends are, how they spend their time, how they spend their money, and countless other scenarios where their experience will be defined by their actions. This is what people pay for. They pay their $15 a month to be a part of this experience, and to share it with their friends. They do not — I repeat — DO NOT Pay for super-fun and original content that they want to play over and over again. If they were paying for content, they’d be spending their money in better places (like lots of console RPGs!)

To preserve the aforementioned experience that players crave, it behooves Blizzard to build a legitimate world for players to thrive in. In this world, there will be rich people, poor people, bad people, good people, and all the different permutations. The good people will be rewarded with excellent gear and status symbols, the bad people will be rewarded with less. The rich people will have to work less and the poor people will have to spend more time gathering currency. But this doesn’t mean that Blizzard should take gold away from the rich and give it to the poor to equalize. It doesn’t mean good players should play with a handicap and bad players should get bonuses! The world needs to be legitimate, not fair, to foster the kind of experience that players crave in MMOGs. This is why Blizzard should preserve the integrity of their virtual world, rather than playing Robin Hood with the people who invest the most time in their virtual world.



On March 17, 2008 at 3:30 pm

I have to say I agree with the OP, but I see the issue.

Pre-BC the guild I was in was moving through BWL on our way to Naxx, had spent what seemed like an eternity trying to get 40 people geared…only to lose it all when the xpac came out, but still seeing far more of the content than most.

Due to job and time constraints I had to dial back my playtime to what puts me in the “casual raiders” and thus in the group that will possibly make inroads into SSC and TK, maybe clear, but I’m not holding my breath.

As much time as people spend gathering gear for progression and bemoaning that fact that expansions “ruin” all the time spent (ie: what was supposed to be “fun” or “play”) gathering gear to see more content if we didn’t get more content people would slowly stop playing, the hardcore raid crowd would stop playing from boredom and everyone else would stop playing because they don’t have 40 hours a week to commit to a game. They’re opening up content to everyone, but the hardcore crowd is moving into Sunwell and their gear will still be vastly better because your casual crowd doesn’t have the time to commit to gathering all those neccessary badges either.

In the end they’re not ruining the game, they’re not dumbing it down, they’re making it possible for the people that have outside commitments (like jobs and kids) have a chance to possibly see the “hardcore” content that was lost on a lot of people last time. If you have a problem with the rest of the community playing a game, maybe you should find something else to play, something that is exclusionary that the casual types can’t get anywhere near. Then you can feel superior to the rest of us without causing so much greif.


On March 17, 2008 at 3:30 pm

First of, I’m in a guild that has BT/MH on farm for a while now and I’m fully geared up for Sunwell. Basically the only thing that bothers me with the attunements getting removed is that with this encounters (that from my point of view are already too easy) are also getting nerfed with it. Maybe not right away but after a while, after people realize that it’s not free epics now that they can get there. Don’t get me wrong I’m all for people getting to see all the content, but I don’t want my experience ruined cause of that. Maybe a normal/heroic option for raid dungeons would be a better solution then removing attunements and giving away high level gear to help the casual guilds beat the encounters. Because let’s face it not every boss is a dps race and I quote “No one likes to head into a raid knowing that you’re severely undergeared and likely to fail miserably” isn’t the reason you wipe on most encounters. So what this normal/heroic option would do is lower the damage output (so that for example mages in spellfire/spellstrike sets dont get 1shoted from the Naj’entus bubble) of bosses, lower their hit points or remove enrage timers (for the 1 or 2 dps checks that could prevent a semi-geared raid to progress past that particular boss) and maybe even remove an ability or two (so that excessive nerfs like what happened to Magtheridon wouldn’t happen) while also (same as in normal dungeons) the loot wouldn’t be on the same level. This would let casuals experience all the content while still giving hardcore players a challenge and for those who can’t live without it some shiny gear with which they can show off on top of the orgrimmar bank (and those casuals who say they want the same gear as in the heroic mode, well you probably don’t want to see all the content and are an ordinary loot whore).


On March 17, 2008 at 3:49 pm

I am glad to see the gear wheel changing to favor more casual players…to a point.

Removing attunements isn’t the way to do it. People should have to jump through a few hoops to prove their willingness to work with each other.

Let them get badge gear…who cares?! Just make it look different – not just a skin color, eh? Lazy designers are lazy. Higher gear levels will make up for poor play style, to a certain degree.

For those of you who willingly dismiss hardcore players: Those are the guys who keep memberships for years.

I recently had to create a post for someone who was whining about his lack of gear and how we should “run him through some old world instances” so he can improve. For christsake – it’s YOUR responsibility to gear up YOUR character.

FYI – It isn’t elitist to ask someone to care enough about their efforts ingame…the good content requires working together, and if you drag too many slackers with you, your play experience gets affected.

Yes, I am a ‘casual’ player, but I’m serious about my fun. I have planned it all out, know what I need from where and why…I just don’t have as many hours so my time in game needs focus.


On March 17, 2008 at 3:52 pm

All the people complaining about the badge rewards. Why? This way it gives other people the chance to do these raids, and possible get into a higher raiding guild You would all turn away because the lack of gear and not skill. By doing this blizzard isnt only helping the casual players. Its helping the “core” raiding guild by bringing them other players in they would have otherwise looked away from.


On March 17, 2008 at 3:53 pm

Taking this article’s author’s argument further, why wouldn’t we want Blizzard to open up all the content & gear for the *even-more* casual player? There are tons of people for whom even gathering badges for the 2.4 gear would be a hardship so why not just let them pay for gear, say $1 for 1 badge, $25 for 30 badges, etc. More people would get more gear and Blizz makes more money. There are lots of people who are still even stuck pre-70 so why not just let people pay for XP as well so the super-casual people can get to that BT content/gear that much easier.

Obviously, this is all ludicrous. I’m mostly fine with getting rid of the attunement requirements although it definitely devalues them. I do have a problem with the badge gear, though. Why bother running BT when you can get guaranteed gear in less time by zerging heroics/kara/za for badges and then just move on to Sunwell? To some extent, this is par for the course. Every time a new major patch comes out, the playing field is leveled somewhat. It would be nice, however, if Blizz provided a perk to the top few who made it through prior to the nerf. To quote George Carlin – “when everybody’s ‘special’, no one is.”


On March 17, 2008 at 4:00 pm

“# freaks says:
March 17th, 2008 at 3:14 pm


poor lige uve guys… no wonder REAL world r doomed… have u heard about EL Nino fenomenal? or even Iraque or TIbete problems? u dont care about it? good!!!

can u care about having in real life friends and not robots ???

DUDE geat a girl and make LOVE!!

poor life uve freaks…”

Seems you should make love less and take an English class.

How is it you (presumably having a life since you feel in the position to insult) still yet have time to respond to a post about a *video game*?


On March 17, 2008 at 4:02 pm

I’m not going to fault blizzard for making content more accessible, removing attunements and all, I was raiding ssc/tk before the attunements for those were removed so I know the difficulty that was involved in getting them.

There are two problems though that I see with the way things are being done.

#1) Arena gear being easy to get. Yes this gears people up to raid quickly…however for MANY classes it isn’t as good as even tier 4 gear. I play a holy priest (yea rarity these days) and I wouldn’t even take a single piece of arena 3 over tier 4. The plus to healing is great, but you put me next to someone in that gear in a stressful healing situation (like lets say being the solo healer on a raid boss)…he’d be lucky to keep the tank up for 30 seconds…while he did his heals would individually be larger than mine but after that he’d be oom. I’d be able to keep up healing for 4-5 minutes EASY with tier 4.
The problem with this is you take another class…hunter for example, where their season 3 set is actually better than their tier 5 set for the task they are attempting and they look and see no reason to go back to “earlier” instances to get the gear that is needed for tanks and healers to do well in these instances.
I’ve had other people question me about this in fact a few days ago another priest in full arena gear asked me about my plus healing … turns out I had about 300 less than him. He wanted to know how this could be…I asked him what his mp/5 was…he said 300 outside of casting. My response was…well that would be it then…seeing as I have 550 (and over 300 while inside 5 seconds of casting.

Arena gear IS NOT as good as pve gear for many classes in raiding.

#2) Badge gear being as good or better than Hyjal/bt gear. I for one having seen much of the end game content as a warlock would actually like to experience it as a priest. I love running 5 mans on him, like revisiting ssc/hyjal with a different raid group and in a different position. But the fact that there will be better gear from simply getting badges makes me wonder why blizzard would choose to make the earlier raid instances and 5-mans irrelevant (and probably as dead as mc) before WOTLK.

I can see wanting people on the top tier but at the expensive of making the lower tiers (including 5man nonheroics) irrelevant doesn’t really make sense to me. And the perception of people that pvp gear really is better for all classes in longer battles (such as 25 man bosses and even kara/za to some extent) is something that I find extremely annoying.

Yes the game is getting dumbed down because it is catering to the lowest common demoninator…someone that really doesn’t understand how everything interacts to make things work and doesn’t want a real challenge that comes with understanding different aspects of play.

Other things I’d like to see fixed…get rid of the grinds…badges/honor both…I used to enjoy pvp when you could actually play to win and not have most of the people in the match more worried about honor per hour than winning (and crying out lets lose quick so we can get more honor if we can’t win fast)
The way the honor gear is right now people look at it as a step above dungeon blues (which in most cases it is) but this viewpoint ruins the fun element of pvp and turns it into another grind simular to the reps.


On March 17, 2008 at 4:02 pm

the bottom line:

what makes more money? the 1000 people in hard core raiding guilds, or the rest of the millions of subscriptions?

if you picked the millions of subscriptions, you picked right. more money means more capitol for improvements, expansions, and growth.

Truthfully, if no expansions ever came out, and no new dungeons, would the current hard core raiders still be content with clearing naxx for the 500th time and sharding most (if not all) of the gear?

remember, money is the bottom line which drives growth. more happy non hard core raiders paying for subscriptions, more growth. 1000 hard core raiders getting mad and quitting cause n00bs are getting good gear? a drop in the bucket…

it’s a business decision, remember blizzard is here to make money and provide a service for whoever pays for it. the loss blizzard will feel for losing a few hundred angered hard core raiders (and the bad comments they make to friends) is almost non existant to the millions of other happy casual players and their praises. Pain tolerance in the ITIL world…


On March 17, 2008 at 4:02 pm

The real issue I’m hearing here is not that the hardcore raiders want to keep the more casual players out. It’s that they think they’re not getting enough rewards. Gear isn’t enough to show off that they’ve been somewhere first anymore since equal quality gear is becoming available to more casual players. I think this is a good idea to get more people into the end game content, but the people there first shouldn’t be complaining about the rest getting there easier than they did. They should be asking for something a special reward for Blizzard for doing it more quickly & by putting more time into learning all the instances before it instead of skipping them. They should not be mad that other players get better gear… they should be upset Blizzard isn’t giving them armored netherdrakes or something along those lines like the top tier arena people get rewarded with. Something that allows them to flex that mighty epeen while not making the rest of the players feel like they’re elitist jerks.

Fear and Loathing

On March 17, 2008 at 4:04 pm

Alot of good points. It has been mentioned somewhat weakly, without any evidence, but since the goal is cash, Blizzard may be shooting themselves in the foot by making this game so easy. An esport is a game where everyone wears the same gear and the only difference is in how fast you click buttons and choosing what buttons to click at different times. That is what this game is evolving into with the changes.

I am fine with removing attunements. You know, attunments are still present in the form of gear checks, to a certain extent. For that matter, gear checks really only apply to maybe 5 people in the raid, even in the 25 man raids. And there are still skill checks. People wearing 90% badge gear with little experience in cooperation and timing and listening to instructions and coordinating with other players are still going to run into a “brick wall”.

So, from a design perspective, you think that the next logical step is that they whine and Blizzard makes the encounters ‘less’ of a gear check (i.e. the Kael/Mag nerfs). Even then, bad players, casual or hardcore or somewhere in between, are STILL going to run into a brick wall.

The problem with giving everyone the same gear and removing attunements is that new encounters are only “new” because they require “new” tactics, timing, coordination, and maybe because they look different, use different names of bosses and abilities. Even then you still have well-established models of encounters like “resistance fight” and “tank and spank” and “movement fight”. At some point, you have to wonder, are encounters really going to be competitive anymore? Challenging? Interesting and new?

I don’t play for recognition, I don’t even other to read the names on trophies when I see them. I play the game for the challenge.

When you “dumb it down” and make it :

* Easy to farm consumables and not even require them for encounters and cheapen them
* Easy to form a raid (5 to 10 to 25 versus the old 40)
* Easy to zone in (removal of attunements, no prequests, no time requirements, no rep requirements)
* Easy to gear up in preparation (badge gear)
* Easier to perform (simplifying the use of abilities, reducing the damage or survivability or healing requirements of encounters)
* Easier to figure out (less trash, longer respawns, no blacklisted information)
* Easier to do (less boss health, no enrage or longer enrage)

You start to wonder, what’s the point? Like it was mentioned earlier, I could just as well be playing an online baseball game, except that its content is made up of over-used D&D/LOTR lore? These changes definitely engender the beginnings of an devolution into a communist like sims game.

The problem is that part of the “gamer mindset” is competition (and no, I am not just talking about how “long” you put into it, but difficulty) and challenge. These elements are much more well-established in a capitalistic environment with well-scaled positive reinforcement. The fact that Blizzard seems to be going in the opposite direction renders me clueless.


On March 17, 2008 at 4:05 pm

Being in a guild that has cleared bt/hyjal, I know I worked for my gear and others on my server know my guild worked for our gear. You don’t lose the title of “hardcore” just because they make the content easier. I have my fun by being 1 of the first guilds to clear content, to be “elite”, after the content is months old who cares what they do to it?


On March 17, 2008 at 4:07 pm

Frankly, getting into the endgame is hard work. It takes lots of time, and effort, and I don’t think players should be able to experience that content without hard work.

That said, I do understand why Blizzard is doing it from a business perspective.


On March 17, 2008 at 4:08 pm

Hello, people

I play hardcore PvE because I like the challenge. I dislike some of the changes Blizzard have made and are about to make, but heck, bad stuff happens all the time and at least these “bad changes” will make a lot of players happy. Mount Hyjal is really something to experience.

What Blizzard should improve for pure PvEers though, and are working on atm, are stuff like requirements for epic flying mounts and general gold rewards in PvE. I would like to see 10 times the amount of current gold drop per 25man boss, and it would be nice to have more quests with nice rewards attached to more bosses in WLK.

Because at this time, I still don’t have the luxury of epic flight. I’ve run instances for gear since before Arena was launched, give me some love for my hard work.

Regards, Edenfall
Feral Druid at EU Ragnaros
- I just want a cuddle :>


On March 17, 2008 at 4:10 pm

So now that I have your attention, first I’ll say I may or may not be repeating what has already been posted (I honestly could not past 10-15 well-constructed comments because otherwise I’d be here all day). I post this assuming most people will have gone to the bottom of the posts as I have to read the last few comments on this article.

As much as it may suck for the hardcores to have the content they worked so hard on get nerfed to the degree they will be in 2.4, Blizzard is a business and their objective is to be as profitable as possible. That said, the so-called “elitists” don’t really have much of a choice of where to go anymore, because only WoW at this point, with its nearly 2/3 share of the MMO market, is likely the only company that has the resources to produce truly engaging and enjoyable content. So, I do feel for the so-called elitists (I was once one myself after all, but unfortunately a hardcore WoW player is virtually impossible to fit into a reasonable and balanced Life).

That aside, I believe every casual player is really missing the point that I believe Blizzard wishes they could address through an action of their own, but in the end, can only do what they can, which in this case was give casuals access to much better gear in hopes that with this much cushion, they will be able to stand a chance against some of the games greatest content like Vashj and Kael.

Let me make this clear to the casuals: You are missing out BIG time if you skip out on Vashj and Kael from SSC and TK respectively. They are, for all intents and purposes, THE end-game of the Burning Crusade. The only boss in BT/Hyjal that can even sort of compare in terms of feeling of accomplishment is Illidan, and that is very much debatable in the hardcore community. No other fight requires the true team effort of 25 people. These fights are nothing short of Masterpieces: no less impressive than a orchestra performance or a victory at a major sports competition. They truly take your guild to a metaphysical Judgement Day: Either work hard, unite, and succeed, or fail and disband. Hence the coined terms so very well known now as “Guild-Breakers”.

The main thing to take away from what I’ve laid out here in this terribly long post is the casuals may believe what they are being given is more access, and in reality yes indeed many guilds are only a week or two away from getting the rest of their guild attuned to MH/BT. But if the casuals of WoW really believe that having fun in this game means getting an impressive set of purples, Blizzard may find a much smaller subscription base in the near future, if this mentality is to continue into WotLK…


On March 17, 2008 at 4:17 pm

You just dont get the point do you?

You are saying that you whant all the instances accecible by evreyone, isnt that what they all are now? BT/MH is a joke at the state they are in now, they are alot easyer then ssc/tk was when tbc was realesed.

You say that you cant get to bt/mh becouse you dont have the time to raid more then 2-3 times a week. Ok, lets see now, we went from kara to BT cleard in 3 months time (we started in the mid of november and ended in februari). I would simpaly say that they are dumbing the game down. Becouse you cant hide behind “I AM A SKILLED PLAYER!! I JUST DONT HAVE THE TIME!!”, tBC has been out for over a year. If you have raided from the start om tBC you should be in BT/MH now. Else you have some seriuse skill isuss in you guild.

They are nerfing the game all the time.. When I went in to bt in jan it feelt realy easy, I am realy disapointed. And now nerfing it even more. haha, F’U Blizzard.


On March 17, 2008 at 4:22 pm

Who me? No I’m just saying they WILL now be accessible to everyone. Don’t really care one way or the other, just saying I feel bad for the casuals who will now have no reason whatsoever to take down Vashj/Kael when they can grind out badges for gear that is in fact better (for the most part) than what those two bosses drop.

Also, the badge gear is not quite equivalent to the gear in BT/MH, but its damn close. Those who actually look at the stat allocation (spell dmg, attack power, defense rating what have you) would realize that.


On March 17, 2008 at 4:24 pm

Shawn! You’re written the best thing I’ve read on here yet. I recognize you guys rock for getting their first & you guys know it. = )

It’s exactly as you say, people are getting mad but what’s the point. It’s doesn’t make what you’ve done any less impressive at al. Plus Blizz has been doing this for a long time. If people are upset about this then they should be complaining that people are allowed to be level 70 ’cause now ZG (for example) is even easier to get through! They gotta make the content you guys have already owned more accessible to the little guys so we have something to do while you own the new content (the Sunwell) they won’t be seeing until you’ve already owned it & been recognized for that anyway. = )


On March 17, 2008 at 4:25 pm

naah, was meant to the OP. Sorry


On March 17, 2008 at 4:26 pm

Although I agree with their reasonings behind opening up the loot chest to all players in WoW. I don’t agree that this will have the net result they’re expecting.

Although experiencing the endgame content is one thing, getting enough of the right people who want to experience it “REPETATIVELY” is a whole nother ball of wax.

You raid to gain loot, so you can raid better, so others in your guild can gain loot, so as a whole, the guild can raid better, harder content. It is the viscous cycle of hardcore raiding. Now…. open all the instances up, make T6 tokens drop more frequently, give away T6 equiv gear for practically free (badges), and now you have signed the death warrants of ‘good’ raiding guilds.

Once a player has everything they could possibly get from an instance, either they move to the next instance, or they cut back on their raiding time. If there are no other instances to move on too, they’ll like quit raiding.

Now lets look a finely tuned 35 player guild who keeps a solid raiding core group. What happens to that guild when every piece of gear from an instance starts getting repetatively DE’d? You start having people shuffling in and out of the guild like the plague. You wind up reteaching the fights over and over again for the n00bs that you pick up off the street, cause they have all their badge gear.

No guild wants to go through that.

The hardcore raiding guilds will be reduced to a bunch of blithering idiots that will be crying that Sunwell is tooo hard. Cause after all, WoW is casual now. May as well just give everyone in a raid all of their tiered sets as soon as you kill all of the bosses in an instance. Just say “Game Over…. I beat World of Warcraft!”…


On March 17, 2008 at 4:27 pm

Simply put, yes blizz want everyone to experience the content, but Black Temple and Naxx are not coffee shops anyone can come and go as they wish. Why would people be able to just enter instances like that with huge lore background? This game is indeed the World of Casualcraft with blizz trashing the lore and casual pvp gears > hardcore pve gears.


On March 17, 2008 at 4:37 pm

Yeah this trend Blizzard has towards PvP focus is getting myself and a lot of others a bit anxious to say the least. WoW really is one of the best raiding games out there, with everything in the game so very well tuned and accounted for in terms of raid design, class composition, etc. It would be a shame if they all of the sudden decide to abandon what really makes the game popular, the end-game raiding content.

Don’t be fooled, that IS what makes this game popular, even if many statistics and figures say otherwise. There are much better Esport-compatible games out there than WoW.


On March 17, 2008 at 4:41 pm

This is a great article. Thank you for publishing.


On March 17, 2008 at 4:46 pm

One of the most idiotic articles I’ve ever read. MMO’s take large amounts of time to accomplish goals. Nerfing content by giving players who have never seen BT gear that is on par is a slap in the face to anyone who spent their time, which they could have spent doing other things, raiding to achieve that gear. If you don’t have the time, don’t play the game. MMO’s are based upon the idea that you are rewarded for your time spent, not given welfare tickets because you don’t have the time “elitist” player A has to invest.


On March 17, 2008 at 4:47 pm

couldn’t agree more with the poster above


On March 17, 2008 at 4:49 pm

I think its funny all you asses continually research the numbers of guilds doing MT/Hyjal, considering them elite. I play 3 nights a week, 3 hours a night and I have all the content done. My guild has only ever raided 4 nights a week max, no more than 4 hours per night.

The things that bug me is the numbers. Ten million subscribers, how many are accounts set up after having the original banned? How many are accounts created by farmers and gold sellers? How many are players that have more than 1 account? Give me a break people. I know people who have several accounts, one person in our guild has 8 himself. Why? I have no idea, he just likes the game, is retired and has so many options to play.

Two percent of the guilds have players that have seen end game? How many players have “toons” in non raiding guilds? bank guilds? I even have alts in raiding guilds that are going through SSc/TK and in non raiding guilds. The joke is on anyone who thinks these are hard fact numbers.

My point? Don’t use static numbers when you think so narrow minded about 2% this or 4% that. I’d be willing to bet a lot of these non hard core numbers make up the casual numbers too.

I could care less about the 2.4 changes overall. My only issue lies in the now non-exclusivity between PvP and PvE.


On March 17, 2008 at 4:49 pm

I really wish they didn’t remove attunements. It’s not that I don’t want others to see the instances. It’s the content that will be skipped. How many guilds are going to kill vashj and kael after 2.4? Probably about the same as still kill mag. Personally, i missed mag, coming into the raiding scene after they lifted the ssc/tk attunments, and am a little bitter about missing the content. Now I am in a guild that has downed vashj and is working on kael in p4. What happens if they release the patch before we kill kael? Likely, people won’t want to make attempts on him anymore if we can go to hyjal instead and get better gear. And he will be a second mag for me.


On March 17, 2008 at 4:50 pm


I agree completely. I was hardcore Pre. BC but quit when my guild couldn’t kill 4 horsemen and decided to take a break from raiding till expans. I came back 6 months ago because there really arn’t any good MMOs out there. I’m in one of those 3/4 TK 5/6 SSC ‘casual’ guilds now and opening MH and BT attunements wont help them any. Content is set up to be progressively harder if your guild is full of morons that can’t follow the strats to kill Vashj they wont fare anny better on harder bosses.

The only benifit that 2.4 will have is it will let skilled undergeared wanaby hardcore players app to the hardcore guilds. In the end the bads will still be dying to vashj Kael and now Gorefiend.


On March 17, 2008 at 4:51 pm

I’m not really against the removal of attunements overall. they can be a huge pain, and do serve to slow down progression. but you have to think, if a guild can not down vashj or kael, why should they be in hyjal and black temple? its just going to get down to most guilds meeting the bare minimum, not being able to do the hard fights because they cant cut it. should everyone be able to experience 25 man instances? yes. can they experience them playing 2 or 3 nights a week? yes. are most people willing to put forth some small effort to get there? no. im not worried about others experiencing content. im worried that now timmy powergamer thinks he’s hot stuff cause his guild got rage down without a vashj or kael kill.

and please bring back unique armor sets. you think that blizzard would spend a little extra money to create different armor. everyone looking the same with different colors is not ok in my book.


On March 17, 2008 at 4:55 pm

Please, why does badge loot has to be T6 equivalent? Up from Kara?

Those casuals are hippocrits. They could go back an see all of NAxx, AQ40 or whatever they missed out.
But do you see anyone of those millions?

Do they care for the content as they say?
Why not watch it on youtube?

No they don’t care, they are driven by the same greed any human being ist.
That’s fine, but can’t they just be honest?

Removal of attunements won’t bring any casual to BT, since their biggest obstacle is forming a working unit, called a raid.
They are mostly solo-players, having 1h playing time (they say….still they hang in the tradechat for days).

These chances will help twinks of raiders, an will 2nd tier guilds, that will lose their non-attuned healers and tanks to other guilds.
Those guilds I pity, for the chance to beat Kael/Vashj will be gone the same way Magtheridon, Nefarian and all the other bypassed for some wiping at RoS.

Casuals will maybe get 2 overpowered items (for the things they do – farming heroics) till WotLK.
Raiders get some equip for their twinks.
2nd Tier Guilds/raids will get their chance to prove them taken away, and will lose content instead of seeing more.


On March 17, 2008 at 4:56 pm

Exactly my point tanksinatra. Your guild focus absolutely must abandon Kael, as the next 3 bosses in Hyjal and at least 3 bosses in BT not only give better loot, but so much MORE loot than Kael gives(minus Najentus, hes a bit tough on healers and takes a bit of getting used to in strategy).

About Mag though…honestly he was an overly gimmicky fight. The fact that a single early cube click could wipe the raid on the attempt where you actually got 3 channelers down before he popped is just dumb. I think 2.4 changes on Mag are a bit excessive, but its not like he was all that great an encounter to begin with.


On March 17, 2008 at 4:59 pm

Okay, there’s no way I’m reading ALL those comments but I think I have the basic gist. To me it almost reads like Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged. One of the very good points made is that you do need the hardcore to make strategy guides for the casual. So those who diss the hardcore and say they have no lives need to remember that fact. That is one instance where the people who only play a few hours benefit from the people who play 6+ hours wiping over and over.

Another thing of note is that I am skeptical of players in badge gear, because often times they really just aren’t good players. The most faithful judge of skill these days is checking to see how they have gemmed out their gear. While you can still progress with poorly gemmed gear, it really says something about just how much time they’ve devoted to learning a class.

Another fallacy I think I’ve seen in some of the comments is that many casual gamers say that just because we devote more time to the game doesn’t mean that we are better players. I think, however; that it does. What ever happened to practice makes perfect? I inherited an account with a well geared enhancement shaman recently. I wouldn’t pvp with him so much as raid. I know what I am doing certainly within a certain venue like say Killing a random mob but things like pvp or where i have to start dropping totems for cleansings or the like I wouldn’t trust myself with. If I stopped playing my main and only played that shaman, I believe, with time I would get better at it. Time does equal skill. I’ve played over 200days on my main and i believe I am a better player for that time spent. I have researched, number crunched and simply played guessing some things by trial and error.

Unless you haven’t figured out, I am probably what you would call a hardcore raider. I mean it really is the only reason I play the game; that and exploring/exploiting…>.> I don’t think removing the attunements is a bad thing, sure maybe a little early but they will have a title for those who have completed Hyjal and Black temple attunement prior to or shortly after the patch…as I understand it. I don’t even disagree with the badge gear including t6 equivalent, it means I can replace some of my non-t6 equivalents yipee. Plus more sockets means more chances to see crappy gemming and LOL’s in gchat. Also I can more easily gear up those alts that i have leveled and know most of the mechanics of and can play competently. I do however, think that there should be more rewards exclusive to the hardcore player base. I can’t tell you what exactly. It doesn’t even have to be extra raiding content. Just something that’s a little nod and wink to us that says we are here and still care about you. Which brings me to my final point the WoW skill curve.

To me, the skill curve for WoW is very short. Most people are either really bad or halfway decent. With only a certain few making it into the upper echelon of skill. I see the reason of this as being that WoW is too formulaic. It’s not like you need a steady hand to get head shots or good judgement to try and figure out your opponents next move. (though that sometimes comes into effect in PvP situations) You mostly need to do a little research and practice. I personally think WoW is being dumbed down but not because of any nerfs to the content. The bosses just aren’t that challenging. There are usually 2 types: tank and spank or massive AoE damage to the entire raid zomg HEAL HEAL HeAL HEAL. The encounters in Naxx practically threw this dynamic out the window. To me the fights aren’t as unique as they were before; for example Heigan the Unclean. That dance takes some time to learn, you can’t heal through that AoE damage. You actually have to avoid it through a proper execution of strategy there is NO margin for error there. I’m just asking for some fights with less AoE and a little more strategy.

So yeah that’s my 2 cents…okay more like 20bucks.


On March 17, 2008 at 5:06 pm

My guild is a casual (raid 3 nights a week, 3-4 hours), small (30 actual raiding members, yet content driven (everything, but the last 3 bosses in BT.

I am in favor of opening BT/Hyjal to the masses. The problem I have with the upcoming changes is passing out loot that is comparable if not better in some respects to the gear you can get from these two instances. The loot is too good, when I am going to upgrade a BT xbow for a badge item, something is wrong.


On March 17, 2008 at 5:07 pm

I am a bit aggrivated by the changes and making everything easier, but not for the reason that you state in this article, nor for the elitist attitude that is branded with raiders. I have been raiding since day one, run a guild, put in all the effort of recruiting, strats, management, record keeping, wipes, etc. What aggriviates me now is that the rules constantly change. Don’t make it hard as hell on some people, then change it and make it easy. Just make it all easy to start with. The people that like the challenge will quit the game (which really doesnt matter from what I am reading) and the remaining people will have fair rules. If it takes some people 1 day to clear it all and some people 6 months, sobeit. Just stop changing the rules.

It’s like telling someone that if you want a new sportscar, work hard and save money for 10 years and you can buy it. Then when its accomlished through blood, sweat, and tears, you say well, you now only have to work 1 day for it. I read somewhere in here “Life isn’t fair, but this isn’t life it’s a game”. Well, then, let’s make it fair. People keep saying it’s fair to give all this stuff away all easymode style. I agree. But for everyone. Don’t wait until 8 months into the xpack and then give it all away.


On March 17, 2008 at 5:15 pm

If they were to make this game as easy as it is now from day one, I almost guarentee this game’s player base would go down the drain in a year or two. There are many reasons why, but the easiest one to point to is simple human nature.

I really hope WoW doesn’t become a glorified chat room with some easy slightly entertaining games to play on the side. I also really hope that’s not what player base is asking for, because if it is, and if people keep paying their 15 a month and its changed to that, you better believe a company will give the customer what it asks for.


On March 17, 2008 at 5:32 pm

Right now as it stands there are two things required from individuals to succesfully raid anything: gear, and the ability to react to any abilities the boss cares to use. (in normal words: stay out of the ing fire)

There are very basically three kinds of people in raiding environment: the ones who are good enough to stay out of the fire, and who can and will invest the time required to get the gear; the ones who can’t get it in their heads that if hydross changes phase you stop dps (usually coupled with the inability to invest the large chunks of time required to prepare oneself); and the ones who are mentally able to raid, but don’t have the ability to actually get the gear.

The first two groups are right where they should be, at the top end, and at the bottom end of the food chain. But the third kind has it rather more difficult.
In a perfect world they would progress through guilds, or with guilds, towards the high end. In practice they will rather probably hit upon a brick wall between “good guilds” and “kara guilds”. Face it, you are not going to be able to join a guild who clears BT on a weekly basis in your T4, even if you would outdamage everyone by a clear 3-5% if you had equal gear.
These players rather commonly started playing later than TBC release, so didn’t gear up along with the first wave of players, that leaves them with a considerable handicap.
It seems that Blizzard is currently catering to these players, to at least give them a chance to get good gear, since by now the ones who are actually already farming BT will only use the new badges gear as fillers for non-dropping items, and the “retards” never will be able to comply to the high standard of attention, concentration and “skill” required to actually raid anything above SSC/TK.

Arguing that people should never get the chance to get to the top end, simply because they didn’t start with it in the start, even when they are capable of it is retarded.
Yes, bad players will get good gear, but just try to let your little brother play your rogue on let’s say Void Reaver (no moving if there are enough resto shamans present, so tactics don’t matter for a rogue) and you’ll notice he doesn’t even get to your usual dps by half, simple as that. Same goes for bad players with good gear, instead of playing sucky in sucky gear they’ll play sucky in good gear. Good gear they very likely won’t even get, since the chances are that they aren’t prepared to invest the time needed to get weapons+chest+legs+neck+trinket+ring (450-500 badges) from heroics.
If I take the 450 badges mark then that would mean: 113 heroics assuming an average of 4 badges per run. Alternatively it means 23 karazhan runs.

That means 9 months for a reasonable hardcore player, who runs 1-2 heroics a day, a time investment of say 4-6 hours a day, also considering the time needed to actually get a group.

These amounts of badges needed for t6 quality gear basically means that people with no access to karazhan farming, or 25-man raids won’t even get the items in a long time.

So in the end it once again boils down to the same thing: the ones who are prepared to invest the time get the epics, the ones who aren’t don’t. Only with the added bonus of actually giving people the chance to cross the gap between kara and kael’thas.


On March 17, 2008 at 5:32 pm

The whole leveling the field thing makes the game boring. This isn’t chess… WoW is already the most casual MMO out there. But at some point you go to far. Whats next Tier 6 and Season 3 on the vendors for 1g a pop (dont worry blizz would make it more but having to do a single daily is too much for people). Im sure in 2.42 you will be able start the game with 70 with Tier4 and full S2 just because 3 days/played is too hardcore.

Regardless of the gear blizzard is handing out to the casuals in 2.4.. It is not going to, in any way, help people get into Tier5/Tier6 instances. 90% of the encounters in TBC are based on your ability to pay attention and execute a strategy not gear and no amount of gear is going to help that. All it is going to do is make your daily farming a little faster, nothing more. If you cant get past Kara/Gruul/Mag now you are never going to do, Overbudgeted free gear or otherwise.

pretty casual guy

On March 17, 2008 at 5:37 pm

well got bored of reading after 1st few comments (particularly Grundys tremendous rant) but i just wanted to say what i think. I raid 2 nights a week and i’m quite happy with that because I have a good life too, i just finished a raid as i write this and i downed kael for my 1st time and got my hyjal attunement. So i’d see myself as a casual player, but i’m skilled and good when i’m there. Personally I understand hardcore raiders being annoyed at the the easy badge loots (and i really hate how its impossible to kill anyone wearing pvp gear if you’re pve, I liked when the gear earned from old raids could wipe the floor with anything) but I think it’s best to think of them as an easy way to fill spare slots and improve gear that never dropped for you or you didnt get. And afterall, you can know that you did the content before anyone anyway.

I have nothing against hardcore players but I really resent people (such as Grundy) who think that ‘real’ players are ones who spend all their lives doing mind numbing repeatable things that are so not fun just to get something that makes them superior to people in the world of warcraft to make up for their inferior life in the real world. I am skilled and dont waste unnecessary amounts of my life doing the stuff thats not fun in a game….

…And there it is, most important fact – IT’S A GAME – Too many people see wow as more serious than their real life and that is just very sad


On March 17, 2008 at 5:39 pm

I read through alot of these posts (but not all) and got interested. My raiding experience is this:
Pre-tbc, I got through Rag after 2 months of raiding and then quit (BWL was open when I started)
Came back for the expansion and got back into the game. Got to 70 and immediately started KZ with my old guild. Due to politics, immature officers, etc, the guild fell apart before we ever got enough to 25-man anything.
So I left and joined a new guild last June to help with their first HKM/Gruul kills. Been with them ever since and we are now on Illidan as of last week (still haven’t downed him). I consider myself casual, the guild raids 3 times a week, and I raid 2 of them. Our raiding group is starting to mesh well together and that’s what’s important to me.
Here are my thoughts on 2.4 pve changes:
1) Removing the attunements is not a bad thing to open content up to everyone. People who couldn’t get past gruul won’t get past Rage because of skill level. As some posters have pointed out, most of the tbc fights are execution, and not gear, and some are both (think hydross). But if my guild needs a new healer, we either steal from an attuned guild, or we race through t5 content to attune them. Now we don’t have to.
2) Giving equivalent gear. Same thing, most of the fights are still going to be about execution, so I could care less if someone has similar stats. They still will probably not know how to use them.

Go for it Blizz. You’re opening up old content for people to enjoy, while also adding new challenging content for your current raiders. From everything I’ve heard, I look forward to Sunwell as a progression instance.


On March 17, 2008 at 5:43 pm

@ differentviewpoint

I am having the feeling that Blizzard considers raiding as a challenge: they first release raids which take time, and effort to complete (un-nerfed, attunements) and later, by the time everyone who could reasonably do it in the original mode has done it, they nerf the content, to give worse players the chance to see it too.
Think of it as that by 2.4 the race for BT will be over, the sight-seeing will begin.
If you worked your 10 years for that car you still can say “I worked 10 years for that car, and got it BEFORE the patch”, which basically means the same thing, apart from that randomnublet0001 can’t spot that from 50 yards distance. Does that matter anything?
Translated to WoW it says: you can stop bragging about your BT gear, and start bragging about your sunwell gear.

I won’t be reading this thread anymore in all probability (chances are I don’t bother checking up on it after dropping in my 2 cents) so the chances of me replying to any reply are very small.


On March 17, 2008 at 5:45 pm

@ Casualraider

e, that’s exactly the point I was trying to make, only done in about half the amount of text used.

Toots Hepcat

On March 17, 2008 at 5:49 pm

Gentlemen, this is war.

The hottest, most difficult part of a war is the front line. This is where there’s the most danger, the hottest action, the most uncertainty, the most frustration.

Eventually, however, the battle is won. The front line doesn’t disappear. It just moves deeper into enemy territory. Reservists move into the front line, mopping up any remaining resistance.

Black Temple is the front line, and many of our elite troops have conquered it. The time has come for those elites to move on to a new front line — the Sunwell — and for the millions of us reservists to fill their positions.

Devote your energy to having the best gear you can access, and stop whining about everybody else. The game will ALWAYS tend towards nerfing the environment and buffing the players, and why shouldn’t it? Technology and magic are getting more powerful as the war effort ramps up, the new enemies are getting smarter while the old ones are getting beaten down, and any player who sits back to revel in his own maximization of potential will be swept aside by those who through dedication, coordination or raw playtime make these old efforts seem pale by comparison.

The ever shifting endgame is why we PLAY MMOs.


On March 17, 2008 at 5:50 pm

Removing attunements and putting in good easy accessed loot from pvp / heroics and the removal of attunements is a great thing both for raiding guilds and for the more casual players.
First of all everyone in guilds know that players comes and goes, the only problem is that fully geared players in less successful guild don’t only lose players who quits but also loses players that migrates to other server to fill spots in bigger, more successful guild wich is a really big problem for the smaller guilds. And with no attunements and easy accessed loot these smaller guilds can much more easily fill the ranks with new players who wants to see endgame content.

Though I must say as a casual player (though ex hardcore pve player) that I don’t think that pvp and heroics (except from arena and then it should be rating based as it has been, perhaps even higher rating) should get as good loot as the HC raiders, that’s a slap in the face imo.
Sure pve players puts down alot of time aswell for their gear, but they don’t put down the offraiding time, the grinding for gold and pots to be able to do HC raiding. To make it more fair blizzard could at least give away free pots in each raidinstance that ofc only would work within the instance.


On March 17, 2008 at 6:02 pm

My concerns have nothing to do with the “casuals” getting their free gear… Gear has never been my concern. I do sigh when I see “raiding” guilds that have Gruuls, Lurker and Void Reaver on their bosses killed sheet for 3-5 months and no mags or any other bosses. I mean, there is no real achievement to farming the 3 easiest bosses in game…. But then as long as they are having fun… meh

However I disagree with your statement in the title. Blizzard IS dumbing down encounters and THAT is what is killing it for hardcore raiders. Dumbing down old stuff (like kara, mags and to a lesser extent SSC/TK) is fine after a few months, because the guilds striving for a challenge will already be through them and it allows the guilds with less time/skill/organization to progress and see more content. My main concern is with BT/Hyjal… anyone that paid any attention to raiding will realize that in 2-3 weeks the FOURTEEN new bosses were all beaten, the fights in BT/Hyjal (with the exception of Archimonde) are all rather simple, boring and too easy. There was no real challenge, no thinking was required, it was just, do the same thing again and hope person X and Y don’t screw up this time… or heal a little harder on the tank etc.

The last hope for end game viability was 2.4 the new patch with sunwell…. People within a few weeks killed 4 out of 6 bosses.

My worry for this game is that it will be dumbed down permanently come WOTLK, there will be no struggle for world firsts, all the “raiding” content will be cleared in 2-3 months of release, and there will be nothing to do in this game.

At the moment there is BGs, Arena’s, Dailies, Raids and Heroics. Most people do heroics/bgs, however heroics don’t change so after a certain amount of runs you get bored and don’t want to do it again, Dailies are worse. Arena’s requires a decent amount of skill and to be fortunate enough to live in america so you aren’t screwed by your latency, but asides from raising your rating (which will peak) there isn’t a lot to do here. Battle Grounds are currently the biggest waste of time with 9/10 coming up against a premade… It’s no fun and the honor gain is a painful grind.

My question is, with easily obtainable “awesome” badge loot, easily obtainable season one gear… what is there to do to have fun in game?

I have a mage alt who hit 70 over Christmas and was geared better than some mains within 2 months… I have university, a job, a girlfriend and go out most weekends… it doesn’t require much time/effort to get to the top anymore… but now there is NOTHING to do, I log on… queue for a few BG’s they’re all premades so I get bored, go farm a few primals, get bored, go do a heroic i’ve done 20 times… find it mildly entertaining… Log off and wait for the next raid… which is only twice a week because of how easy BT/Hyjal were…

Challenging progression is what keeps MMO’s alive, they can make all raids as difficult as a heroic in WOTLK, all the 75% of casual guilds or whatever will see all content… which is fine, power to the people… then EVERYONE will be as bored as current hardcore raiders and most likely quit the game like most of them have.

It is in blizzards best monetary interests to keep hardcore raiding hardcore. I’m basically canceling my account till WOTLK will level my 70′s to 80, see if it’s worth continuing and if it stays the way it is now will quit. Wow’s taken enough of my life anyway.


On March 17, 2008 at 6:05 pm

In response to the statement dumbing down World of Warcraft, to me there is no question that it is happening. I raided hardcore pre TBC and almost a full year after its release. In the end it got old, it got repetitive, and the boss fights just got plain stupid. Honestly if Blizzard wants to keep the casual players happy, design a new 10 man and 5 man every couple months and let them enjoy that, all the while keeping the 25 man raids difficult like Pre TBC so that the hardcore raider can still enjoy what they pay for.


On March 17, 2008 at 6:15 pm

To Quote:
The same goal explains why the new badge gear is on par with tier 6 loot. Simply put, Blizzard wants these players to have a chance in these raids. No one likes to head into a raid knowing that you’re severely undergeared and likely to fail miserably.

Actually no – this represents a fundamentally flawed viewpoint because when our guilds got to HS and BT we were in T5 gear (you know having killed Kael before they nerfed the encounter into the ground). There is zero point in releasing badge gear that is the same level as T6 to allow people into T6 raids … because there’s no upgrades, they become a waste of time.
This is why so few people saw Naxxaramas (we downed Raz to be one boss in on the eve of TBC’s release) – because it was superceeded by far more easily obtainable loot. If you want people to see content you have to make it worth their while to go in there and learn the bosses and wipe on it. Hardcore raid guilds go for the challenge of progression and server firsts, casuals need more than that.
If you want to have people to see content you can’t make it irrelevant. Kael is the best designed fight WoW has seen (even in nerfed form it was still fun) and he’s no longer required. Do you think any of the guilds that aren’t at him now will ever go an see him when his loot is sub-par compared to badge loot?
Blizzard has got the right idea but they have the implementation incorrect – people won’t go and see content when better gear is available elsewhere. The only reason Kara is still run is that it drops 22 badges. No-one is going to spend time wiping on Kael or Bloodboil or Illidan for 3 badges.
Moreover how much of a joke are “legendary” warglaives when any scrub guild can walk into BT?


On March 17, 2008 at 6:31 pm

It’s not about catering to the hardcore group, it’s about giving free handouts to casual players and leaving nothing for hardcore players to work for. As a hardcore player you don’t even have an edge over a casual player anymore. What’s the point in playing this game if you can just get the best gear in 3 weeks.


On March 17, 2008 at 6:33 pm

I understand Blizzards standpoint. It is not about getting people to see the content it is about money. But the solution is the same, open up the content for more people and give them the gear needed for it.
But still, as a alliance first and server third guild I still feel it diminishes our achivment. Not Magtheridon will click the cubes for you.
I have no problem what so ever for people to be able to get t6 level gear so they can get into end-game content. In fact we want that so we can get a bigger player base to recruit from.

What they could do was giving all that cleared BT/MH or did the last quest there a titel, “Slayer of the Betrayer” or something :lol: Because what they are doing is diminishing our achievement. They need to open it up but dont stab the people who did it before nerfs in the back.


On March 17, 2008 at 6:42 pm

1st i should say it was great but i have some problems …
well i see that most of ppl whose decidin t leave WoW is that they can not find giuld for them selves ok what should they do ?! Answer: PVP
now i have1/2/4 friends to help me out with arena i did pvp i’v got my full vengfull gladiator gears Gz ,ty
k now brutall gladiator then Insane gladiator after that bllizard gladiator …
does it stop ? A: nooooo

and another thing about legendrys thunerfury was real Legendry (witch nihillum off tanking illidan with) what about warglaives of azzionait ?! aren’t you gonna change it for some dagger in Sunwell?!


On March 17, 2008 at 6:42 pm

Aww, poor “hardcore” raiders. Since you’ve personally devalued the effort it took to get to these places first, the teamwork and practice and coordination, the only sense of accomplishment you have out of the game is to compare your stats to someone else’s stats and say “wow, I have higher stats than that guy, my life is worthwhile”. How terrible for you.

Sarcasm aside, if the only reason you’re raiding is to be the exclusive owners of items with a slightly higher item level and have exclusive access to an area with new content, you’re not enjoying the game, you’re enjoying an artificial measure of accomplishment. It reminds me of the folks who were seeing red when baseline level 70 rare gear was better than level 60 endgame epics.

Thank god your perspective is recognized for being as skewed as it is, because otherwise we’d still be sitting around farming Argent Dawn rep to relax attuning requirements for Naxxramas and marveling at how an endgame tank could break 8000 health fully buffed. None of that new content crap to pollute the game you’ve beaten.

You want the Blizzard devs to cater specifically to the sociopathic 1% of the gaming population you represent? You want them to give you truly exclusive content? Hire them to MAKE YOU A NEW GAME. Nothing is more exclusive than content that’s not even in World of Warcraft.


On March 17, 2008 at 6:55 pm

Honestly, I don’t see what the big deal about the badge gear is. It’s 3 pieces per armor type, and the stats, at least for fury warriors, are curiously alloted; the strength of those three pieces alone isn’t going to suddenly put fresh 70s on par with people who have been clearing or half-clearing BT and Hyjal for a month or so. If you care that much about flaunting your accomplishment, anyone even halfway in the know will know how far your guild is, and where you got your ilvl 141 epix.

As for the removal of attunements, the idea that it’s going to open up BT and Hyjal content to anyone is ludicrous. I think it was designed more to give those of us attempting to recruit into BT/Hyjal guilds a break on the attunement. Who wants to waste a raid night in godawful SSC/TK for a couple of stupid keys because your offtank and his healer wife got a new job overseas and can’t raid anymore?

The level of gear required for Naj’entus is its own attunement; guilds that haven’t been 5/6 TK and 3/4 SSC for a while aren’t going to make any significant progress there. In Hyjal, they might kill Winterchill if they have a PvP trinket, and maybe even Anatheron if they’re good, but who cares? Good for them, I hope they have fun.

In short, chill out; it’s really not that big a deal. And those arguing with the chicken littles, please refer to them as something other than ‘raiders’. Honestly, most of us welcome this change, and don’t care that you may now enter BT and Hyjal. We hope you have fun, as much as you can; they’re fun instances. We hate SSC and TK, and now we never have to go back! Not even for keys.


On March 17, 2008 at 7:04 pm

I’ve read over most of this, looked at the various views and it really seems that everyone misses that which is at the core of the problem. While some have began to understand it, most fail to even recognize it. The problem isn’t that attunements are being lifted, that’s fine it allows people the POSSIBILITY of seeing new content. Fine. Seeing the new content is a good thing, but the flaw is found in the various forms of gear outside raiding, aka badge gear arena etc. that is dumbing down the raid content.

If they truly wanted players to experience the content the way it was designed and at its intended difficulty they would produce badge gear equivalent to what would be needed to begin progress in a raid zone, not gear that is equal to or better than the drops in said zone.

Content is about working together, finding a functional method for your raid to conquer the encounter, and all the other things that come into play. Giving everyone access to gear that is of the quality as some of the best items in say BT/Hyjal since that’s what this is really all about, dumbs down the content. You cannot argue otherwise. We had a tank still using the kara tanking chest off Nightbane when he killed Illidan. Why should someone be able to have access to a chest piece that is equivalent to what Illidan himself drops as an example. It doesn’t make sense and dumbs down the content.

All in all the problem doesn’t arise from badge gear or the lifting of attunements as much as it does from releasing too high quality gear in too many forms. You want to experience the content great now you can, but at least do it in similar gear to what everyone else had to do it in. Using gear that is superior to the encounter from badge gear proves nothing. This is where the problem lies, the release of badge gear. Had the T5 badge gear been release with 2.4 and the attunements been lifted I highly doubt many would complain as no one would be handed an easier time with the content, only receiving help entering the zones.

The author fails to realistically examine the problem and uses a standardized response to the issues. As a writer I would expect more thought to be put into this. You only fuel the fire, when your intention was to put it out. Labeling raiding guilds as elitist etc only shows poor taste on your part.

Just a heads up for the author: Name me one game that has been successful on a large scale that has not revolved around a “Hardcore Player Base.” Without the hardcore you lack a reason for what you term casual to play. Why progress, if everyone is the same, why play if you are no different than everyone else? Progression is what fuels an MMO, and without those you call Elitist, you sir no longer have the game you see today. No one is asking to cater to the Hardcore, they are just asking that the pacing mechanisms still function somewhat whether they know it or not.


On March 17, 2008 at 7:07 pm

Honestly, if you can’t kill vashj and kael in their current incarnations you really don’t deserve to go have a shot at illidan. Kael’s advisors have crap hp compared to the original version of the fight and the weapons are easy as now too, especially with ZA gear. Not being able to down these bosses while raiding and attempting them is rather sad.


On March 17, 2008 at 7:15 pm

Quote: You want the Blizzard devs to cater specifically to the sociopathic 1% of the gaming population you represent?

Sociopath lol, yeah that 1% of wow players that are all serial killers/rapists…

I love how all these casuals get all high and mighty. Because they supposedly have lives, and anyone who raids supposedly doesn’t.

In short, I and most people don’t actually care about attunements or gear. I only care that these new boss fights are lame and easy, and progression as a whole died since lady Vashj and Kael were first killed. BT and Illidan are yawnfests and no real challenge, Hyjal is kind of interesting, but gets old rather quick when you wipe. Sunwell is being beaten as soon as a new boss is being made available… If raiding continues this trend it will be too bo ring to hold hardcore raiders interests and too hard for people with no time/skill to raid and will basically be a waste of time.


On March 17, 2008 at 7:34 pm

I know, personally, as someone who has cleared all of the content before and after the release of TBC that I could not care less about the lifting of attunements. Our progress, dedication and love for the game and it’s creators doesn’t go anywhere, and it doesn’t stop us from having done it first, and months before the more casual people on the server. If anything this is for the better, see what we’ve been dealing with for a while…even though it might be a severely nerfed version of the encounter with little to no bugs. Have fun raiding! In the end, it IS just a game…no matter how “hardcore” you might be.



On March 17, 2008 at 7:37 pm

This is a retarded article. I am one of the elitists you speak of. My major argument: what the hell is the point of blizzard even adding Sunwell? The casual gamers, who make up the majority only have enough skill to complete 5 mans. So, why doesnt blizzard just make 3 new 5 mans, and forget about sunwell. The old point of raiding was to accomplish feats not many others could, now with any old average joe getting equal gear, there is just no reason to compete in PvE. WoW is now just a pvp oriented mmo, with no reason to ever do PvE. Good thing other MMO’s are coming out, to give hardcore MMO players something to feel proud of. I for one am glad, Blizzard has poor customer service, and couldn’t balance PvP if their lives depended on it. Down with blizzard, and theyre love for the downs syndrome infested casual players.


On March 17, 2008 at 7:42 pm

i spent hours learning everything from kara to illidan. Now these kids who just hit 70 can get equal gear. Its sad on Blizzard’s part. I am all for casual players getting to see end game content. However, handing out free gear and making raiding pointless isnt going to help Blizzard in the long run. When they lose the best guilds like DnT, because theres no point to raiding, Blizzard will be sorry. Casual gamers may make them have fatter paychecks, but they arent the ones truly enjoying the game and everything it offers. WoW has become a child’s game, along the lines of shrek for the playstation, or old ass mickey mouse capades for NES. People like challenges and working for a common goal, not doing all that and getting gear that means nothing.


On March 17, 2008 at 7:43 pm

I agree with this jesus guy. Dumbing down WoW wont do anything but hurt Blizzard in the end. What’s the point of doing anything but PvP anymore?


On March 17, 2008 at 7:52 pm

I think it’s safe to say that Badwabbit will never earn a doctorate degree in anything.

Ron, thanks for your input on this interesting read.


On March 17, 2008 at 8:01 pm

While this is a very touchy and risk eased subject, I thought I would post here today to express a compromise that many people feel brewing yet we are to busy holding our blazing guns to talk.

World of Warcraft was different before The Burning Crusade. People that have played since day one, or even better, beta, will be able to agree with me in saying that while some tasks seemed to work you to the bone (Ony attunement, Faction grinding, PvPing against people in raid gear) at the end of the day, when you were Exhalted with The Argent Dawn, you were purchasing your High Warlord’s Set, or you were gazing at the 60 foot epic dragon “Onyxia” in her smoldering lair, you had a sense of terrific achievment and the game seemed ‘Oh so Epic!’.

I don’t believe that WoW is being dumbed down, infact if someone would care to walk down memory lane with me, players screamed and clawed at blizzard for gear that would be of raid equivalent for players that had other worldly tasks to do, however it does appear to me that Blizzard are making the gear just a bit to easy to get. When we first saw the release of gear that would benefit players who couldn’t raid, it was under intense pressure, we were told of epic quest lines, trial, error, effort, and success. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying these things aren’t experienced in Arena or Battleground PvP,and i most definitely think that PvP gear of raid equivalence is something that WoW needed, but the amount of effort required to gear yourself up these days is nothing compared to what it used to be, and I wish that all players would have experienced the endurance test s that us ancients of WoW did, and realise that, though the work was hard, at the end it was all worth it. The game was epic, the cities extraordinare. Something that doesn’t seem to be with us these days.

I (along with many others I’m sure), am holding hope that Blizzard can pull that epic sense of work back into WoW in WotLK, to me, the return of 8 piece sets in Sunwell is a terrific idea, and I hope they continue to incorporate high end raid gear, but also up the difficulty on obtaining PvP gear of equivalence.

If you would like to reply specifically to my comment, shoot me an email ( or drop by my website, I am considering opening a discussion there about this topic and all opinions are welcome, even if they are flaming mine!


On March 17, 2008 at 8:06 pm

open the instances BT/MHis fairly ok, but not with gear on a level having already cleared those instances…..

where ist the skill you need, the tactics to figure out that makes you deserve that gear.

->where is the interesting part in raiding an (now open instance) with gear that is equal to the drops of this instance? where is the motivation?there is non.

Anyway, WoW ist breaking down to a simple pvp-mmo. beating someone´s ass up in a square, comparable to orgimma-downtown, is a better benefit in your gear from winning or loosing or exploiding this stuipid -fight, than spending hours of hours, wipe for wipe in an instance and adjusting peoples´ skills and class abillities to unknow encounters.

i pay the same amount of money, like any casual do, per month but in oder to find a way to satisfy the “needs” of the hardcore gamers community, it only pays out for the casuals and unskilled ones.



On March 17, 2008 at 8:08 pm

First I’m not an elite raid, I’m using kara/ZA gear. Now, let’s face it…

People play this game to feel powerful, to show off walking around shattrath with their T6 gear earned with countless hours of raiding. I see that and think with myself “that guy has no life”…but still that is what I AM raiding for, I want the challenge and the respect. Call me a nerd, call me a kid, call me whatever you want, but that is what the reason why many people play this game…

I also see Blizzard’s point of view, like: People is getting bored, or they get the gear too fast or they never get it, doesn’t matter if it’s pvp or pve. You don’t need to be a Master in Business Administration to know that is not good for business. Never the less, it seems that many people is doing rerolls…starting over…something I REALLY don’t have the patience to do.

I’m raiding (TK and SSC at the moment) because I’m too lazy to get PVP gear (as someone already said it is better than PVE gear, for dps, mostly) and, mainly, because I think I need to work hard to be worth of seeing the end-game content.


On March 17, 2008 at 8:14 pm

it’s a video game and Blizzard runs a business. elitists’ are the minority and can be offered up as fodder. STFU or quit playing, i won’t have to listen to your ignorant rants in trade chat anymore. LOL, accomplishments…….you pressed “x” amount of buttons in “x” amount of time to beat a scripted event, reading strats published by professional gamers. GET BENT!

i have played since beta and have 4 lvl 70s all post t4 epic.


On March 17, 2008 at 8:14 pm

There is a pretty obvious chain of logic to Blizzard’s approach with TBC thusfar.

All the content is streamlined to get harder the further in you go right?. Nothing revelatory about that. This means that initially all the experienced and well organised guilds with hardcore hours to spend learning the new content will get to see all of the content *first*, and should they be successful, they will be able to have their time on the top of the pile.

Now lets say that 2 players have been playing for 12months each, one is hardcore, one is not. The hardcore player levels to 70, gets involved in a successful raiding guild and clears everything, whereas the casual player is doing Karazhan with his or her friends once a week. People seem to forget that both players will have paid the same sum of money (assuming monthly debits are the payment method ofcourse) for their experience with the game.

Warcraft is a videogame, of the MMO variety, and as such should offer the fairest mechanism with which each subscriber can enjoy the game.

Hardcore players do everything, and do it all first, and eventually, Blizzard slowly eases the pressure on the casual gamer by removing attunements and adding in different methods for readying your character. They did it before TBC hit with the PVP changes, they are doing it now. with the badge rewards and the Arena Season gear going for default honor points (although this is less useful in the T6 phase dungeons naturally).

Ultimately, whatever Blizzard do, they will upset people, 10million people cannot all be pleased all of the time.

For people who fall either side of the fence on this argument, as opposed to sitting in the middle and simply making observations, you have to remember that Blizzard did not make Warcraft for you and you alone, it is a world for the many, at least that is the direction in which things have been focused since TBC hit. So in other words, its ok to be frustrated about it, and its equally ok to be damn well excited that you can enjoy having a powerful character (in PVE terms), but ultimately, you are playing in a ever evolving world, where nothing is ever set in stone.

I would be amazed if Blizzard didn’t make the raiding setup in WOTLK similar, with an “end boss” only available to the small percentage of serious, hardcore guilds initially, then opening it up over time.

It really is the fairest way.

At the risk of sounding patronising, imagine you bought a new Zelda game only to find you couldn’t kill Gannon and “get the girl” (referencing an old Nintendo ad campaign, really bad one) unless you played 30 hours a week for 5months? Some people might say, sure thats awesome! But it simply isn’t good business sense as “the majority” would be alienated from seeing the game “completed”.

MMO games don’t really finish, they evolve in stages (or expansions/patchs in WoW’s case) and they should be treated with as an experience, your character being the vessel through which you act out the experience. Your character is not yours remember, it belongs to the larger whole.

Love and hugs to both sides of the argument


Jesse aka Mornaanar

On March 17, 2008 at 8:16 pm

Even tho’ I have been playing just over a year (btw, I am 55 this year, married 18 years and have a 15 yr. old son who plays), I believe Blizz is dumbing it down. Too many are being allowed to “power” level, and so they have no true concept of BG’s much less PvP. They get extreme gear easily, and have no clue how to use the gear, much less their toon. I’ve been seeing BG’s totally gone to hell because the people who are on their have no clue as to what they are supposed to be doing, much less the goals involved.

Doing BG’s lately is terrible. Most have no clue about tactics, they afk or they just don’t care to read what those of us who do know are trying to relay to them. Even worse, Blizz has been, and is continuing to take forever straightening up the mess the Alliance has caused with the boycotting of AV. The ques are godawful long, and I’ve seen them extend from 30 minutes to an hour in just a couple of eots or WSG.

True, being this late in the game, I’m getting what is called “welfare” gear (I do BG’s a lot if I am not doing daily’s). However, I was pretty much solo with my Lock until I moved it to another server, and got into what I’m hoping will end up as a very fluent guild as far as questing and raiding.

What I’d really like to see are quality people who want to play, play to win and not get bent out of shape if there is a wipe. There seems to be more numerous people getting in WoW that I would not deal with in RL, they are so abusive with language and behavior.

We cannot treat WoW like RL, it is just pixels and code. It’s here to have fun, and hand out with people we may never see in RL. We cannot see it being “dumbed down” just for the sake of it. It’s like handing out winners trophies to an entire team who lost a major match or game. I think it is wrong that Blizz seems to be allowing everyone to win, and to have an “even” playing ground. They can try, but I don’t think anyone can write enough code for that to happen. And if they do, well, Blizz WILL lose a lot of those of us who are serious about the game, the fun of it and the enjoyment we get when we, or our guild makes it thru a major raid or quest without Blizz having it made so easy that “anyone” can do it.

Jesse aka Mornaanar

On March 17, 2008 at 8:18 pm

I should note, that I have done pretty much all quests in all areas except for Area 52 and the Consortium.


On March 17, 2008 at 8:18 pm

Note to all the casuals -
The only thing you have winning for you in 2.4 is a new 5-man. Don’t kid yourself, you’re not going to be spending hours at a time in BT, because you’re not going to be able to put in the effort. You’ve got a child to raise, a wife/husband to please, a job to work at.

In no way is 2.4 for you. It is a cop out to all the casual players out there. It merely gives you the delusion that you can possibly get into BT and play it.

The reason i’m quitting WoW is because of this reason. There is no casual content. No casual content has really been added other than ZA and the new 5 man. Raiders have 6 Raids, and a new one coming up. We have ing 3.

THREE. Kara/ZA/MT. We’ve only received 2 new dungeons this entire expansion. TWO. ZA/MT. Wow, great job there newbs, I guess all this new gear which took Blizz 1 day to make up makes up for it? It’s a stupid ass cop out. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you’ll figure out that Blizzard is nothing but bull.

I feel sorry for all the Hardcore Gamers, I do. They are currently being punished for terrible players. No, casual player’s are not getting this patch. The only people getting things are people who suck so bad they cannot beat high end encounters. They spend most of the time raiding, but don’t have enough brain cells to complete the encounter, so they leech off of Blizz’s free gear ride.

I suggest people start re-evaluating WoW and Blizzards attitude towards it, because this game is at a crucial point in it’s existence. It can either turn out to be one of the greatest games ever made, or sell out/cop out bull. What makes WoW so great is the balance between Hardcore and Casual. Without the hardcore, there are no heroes, no competition. Without the casuals, there are no one to want to strive to get better gear and make up the populace.

People need to start suggesting that Blizzard even out Casual CONTENT(NOT ING GEAR)with Raiding CONTENT. Giving out free gear is nothing but bull, and if you don’t realize it, well then you’re the poor sap that Blizzard enjoys playing this game.

Sorry to break all you’re hearts, but it needed to be said.


On March 17, 2008 at 8:21 pm

I’m probably what people would consider a hard core raider, my guild has cleared BT/MH and we raid 4 nights a week. Personally, I think both sides have a good point. I used to be casual pre-TBC and I could never get into one of those AQ40/Naxx guilds so I know how casual players feel.
My belief is hardcore raiders SHOULD get some recognition, like they did with Mag and gave players a title, but something more than just a title. As to what that could be, I have no idea, I just think hardcore raiders who worked hard at those instances should get some reward that sets them apart from casual players that is noticeable. Also saying that we get Tier 6 and other BT/MH gear is what sets us apart, if casual players are getting badge gear that is equal to that then that erases that distinction.
I also believe casual players should experience end game content. I know that casual players may down several bosses in the harder instances but they wouldn’t down Illidan or Archimonde because both bosses have strategies that are complex for casual players and even some hard core raiders. So in the end, it’s all good for casual players, they get to see end content but won’t have as much of a chance to finish it like the hard core raiders did with all their hard work.
Overall, I don’t mind Blizzard nerfing the end-game content. Remember when attunements were taken away for SSC/TK and how we all moaned about trash guilds clearing them? I know many of the guilds of my server that thought they could capitalize on that opportunity haven’t killed A’lar. They can only kill Void Reaver because he’s so easy. And I’d guess 80% of those “trash guilds” can’t even kill Hydross. The 20% can kill Hyrdross but still can’t kill Lurker. So have no fear hard core raiders, they won’t take away your glory. And congrats to casual players, you will experience a piece of what the elite have completed.


On March 17, 2008 at 8:36 pm

Here is the issue.

Blizzard needs to remove attunements permanently. Don’t make us hardcore raiders bust our butts to get attuned just to remove them.

Don’t PTR test hours of trash just so Blizz can bug test encounters on live then nerf the encounters and remove the trash once we hardcore raiders have cleared it.

Give us set bonuses for all 8 pieces. Give us glove bonuses for PvE gear (why only arena gear).

At the same time if you want to give everyone opportunity and just rewards at least give us a reason to keep pushing your content. To keep giving some players something to aspire to or be /jealous of. It is fun for some of us to be respected and it is motivation for others to see that one player in “godly” gear.

Titles for server first kills. Novelty items, mounts, non-combat pets for voluntary attunement lines, first kills, early kills, timed kills etc… If you want us all to be equally geared in terms of preparedness for encounters and game mechanic stats at least give us something so we can look and feel cool ^^ After all many of us do play because we like the fantasy of being the best hutner/warrior/healer/pwner out there.


On March 17, 2008 at 8:43 pm

I think, the hardcoregamers will have to cry when wotlk comes out and their gear will be worthless, and i`m sure it will be so, in my opinion Patch 2.4´s main goal is to get all players on the same level, for leveling in the expension, but i´m only a cassual gamer, stuck in SSC^^

Greets Elfeater


On March 17, 2008 at 8:44 pm

Off-topic but
Even worse, Blizz has been, and is continuing to take forever straightening up the mess the Alliance has caused with the boycotting of AV. The ques are godawful long, and I’ve seen them extend from 30 minutes to an hour in just a couple of eots or WSG.
That was what queues were like for alliance back when Horde didn’t play AV because they lost all the time. On AV weekend there were so many alliance trying to AV and so few horde that 40 mins was standard. I’d queue up and go farm SM for gold while I waited. You don’t have it that bad.


On March 17, 2008 at 8:56 pm

After reading a lot of these posts, there are valid points on both sides.

However one thing I’m confused on, is why the letter of contention is to cater to the casual gamer? The casual gamer isn’t needing high end content because the high end content wasn’t intended for the casual gamer.

The reason attunements are so hard, and the bosses are so hard, is because it takes genuine skill and leadership to kill these bosses. If what you are doing is removing the attunements to BT and MH based on the excuse of gamers not experiencing “oldworld dungeons like Naxx and Onyxia”, then what you are doing is removing the need to go through Karazhan and SSC/TK and are allowing those same “hardcore gamers” the chance to gear up alts or the casual gamer, with only pvp gear that can be farmed by watching t.v and clicking a button while they don’t care if they live or die. If you want to make something valued, don’t cheapen it. Gold dollars are valued because there aren’t many of them, not because everyone has one.

In short, don’t trivialize the content, you worked hard on it for a reason. To devalue it is to embark on SELLING subsciptions instead of MAINTAINING subsciptions. And that will only lead to an inevitable downfall. People tend to respect things that are difficult. It’s what breeds character and skill. A sense of accomplishment. Let word of mouth sell the game for you, and let content keep the people working hard spending their 15 a month before you trivialize it and then people will only buy a 3 month scrip and then give up for a newer, bigger, better, and faster game.


On March 17, 2008 at 9:08 pm

On topic:
The problem is not the nerfing or the removal of attunements or even the gear buffering of instances – all of these were policy in vanilla WoW pre-TBC. (think of Dire Maul gear to buffer MC, the nerf to trash respawn in MC, the introduction of Silithus & CC for NR gear for AQ40, hell remember when epics were actually epic and meant something) The problem is all in the timing.

T4 quality badge loot should have been introduced when SSC & TK attunements were removed.
ZA’s loot should have been of a level between T4 and T5 and not actually be T5 loot. It should have been there to buffer the T5 raids.
The introduction of T5 quality badge loot should have co-incided with the removal of BT & HS attunement requirements. This way you can get T5 quality gear (which is what everyone has when they start in Hyjal Summit and Black Temple) even if you can’t knock over the majority of TK and SSC.

Raid gear should always be an iLevel jump ahead of the best available badge gear. This way (1) you don’t annoy the raiders, and (2) gearing up via badges allows you to step into the highest level raid instance but not out-gear it. Giving T6 level loot from badges doesn’t ensure people can see T6 level raids, it ensures they won’t – why bother, raiding takes effort and badges don’t. They don’t need the upgrades anyway.

e.g. Patches
.0- T4 raids availabe (no attunements), Heroics available to buffer T4 Raids, T5 raids available (attunement required)
.1- T4-quality badge loot introduced, ZA introduced to buffer T5 raids
.2- T6 raids introduced (attunement required), T5 attunements removed
.3- T5-quality badge loot introduced, MT introduced to buffer T6 raids
.4- T7 raids introduced, T6 attunements removed


On March 17, 2008 at 9:10 pm

At least someone has some common sense. Good read, good points. I whole-heartedly agree. The people who think other people don’t “deserve” to see illidan and other raid bosses… /sigh. Not to mention the so called “bt level badge rewards” are itemized horribly. I won’t be upgrading my mind blade for 150 badges, no sir ree bob.


On March 17, 2008 at 9:26 pm

As a member of a casual guild it´s sad to know that it requires 25 guys/girls to raid the more advanced instances. It all comes down to invested hours who will be able to take down a high end boss. So Im not that impressed to be honest. Everyone, well almost everyone can do this. Even monkeys I say :shock: All you hardcore raiders; the difference between you and the rest of us is that you all sit 6 hours every night 7 days a week doing something I would considering to be work… a non-paid work that is. Of course you can do stuff better then the rest of us when you slowly gear up every member. If you didn´t, hey, then you really #*=#!! We on the other hand play because we like it when ever we feel like it without all that pressure that comes with hardcore gaming.

So will the new loot for badges and non requried attunment make us casual players to start raid MH/BT right off?? Most probably not because it still requires 25 players ready to invest alot of hours doing what monkeys also can do if trained good enough.

If I ever see the end instances one day I would be happy but it wouldn´t be the end of the world. I can always look at you monkeys in those crappy videos taking down bosses after months of raiding… thanks!! :grin:


On March 17, 2008 at 9:45 pm

I think alot of things added up to making TBC a disease on many guilds. I’ve been playing since the original WoW Beta and my original toon was hardcore and part of the #1 guild on my server. We raided 4 or 5 nights a week and spent many nights learning dungeons before strategies were widely posted on the net. This was the best part of getting through a dungeon. It was repeatedly improving and observing. Everyone felt part of the struggle, every opinion was taken and weighed by the guild leaders. The raiding guilds shared info and helped each other out. You needed 40 out of 40 people to push the cutting edge of content. But as patches were spaced enough to have people catch up in gear, things changed. It became a race and a egofest. Strategies were on the Web before dungeons went live. The community was now pitted against each other and the game started to become a job.

Early on when we raided 4 or 5 nights a week, it was because we wanted to to see more do more and have some sense of accomplishment. Later on it became 4 or 5 nights because we couldn’t let NotSoUberGuild#2 catch up.

I left the raiding scene and rerolled on a new server with the intent to never raid again. The server I moved to had a guild that had rerolled just to be #1 and they power leveled to get into the endgame in a few weeks. However, there were alot of other players and now #1 was out of the way and out of reach. I found myself grouping with some nice people that were part of a guild that had no aspirations to be a top guild. As I was finishing my dungeon 1 set, that guild was moving into ZG. These were good people that I had grouped with alot and they ocassionaly needed anothe healer and I would go help them out in ZG. It was fun again. It wasn’t about this race. I decided to change my attitude and raid again. We were doing really well, and each new boss brought back that fun of sharing an accomplishment with others. As we were moving into MC, dungeon 2 sets came into the game. This was one of the greatest experiences in my time playing WoW. Timing was just right for our progression, and everyone banded together to get dungeon 2 sets. This was how the game should be. There were end goals with amazingly enough guaranteed rewards. No running MC for the 100th time to pray that your set chest dropped so you could finish your set. It was a set goal to get that piece. We spent days working together to get the 45 minute run done. This drew people closer to each other in the guild and everyone was happy as group after group got their sets completed. Then something amazing happen, we started to progress through content at an amazing pace. A casual guild that was nowhere on the radar somehow moved into being known as one of the top guilds on the server. I believe the dungeon 2 quests made this possible. We learned to work with each other and work towards a goal. This was as tight knit as a guild could be. We never made it to Naxx and there were only 2 Naxx capable guilds on the server. But, I had high hopes for the guild in TBC.

But in the end the server got turned upside down due to the expansion. The smaller raid size caused 40 man guilds to have to sit people or have multiple runs. Some groups did better than others and then it became the A team and the B team. Guilds were now competing within themselves. The top guilds were trying to outdo the others. It became that race again. The need to be the best and have the shiniest most epic gear destroyed what was once a great group of friends playing just to play while taking it serious enough to want to progress just for us. TBC ripped this guild apart and many like it. The race led to elitism. Guilds that weren’t in the top before now were racing to get their, while being driven from not being up there before. Once they got there, they flaunted like some sign of greatness.

This attitude of elitism was something of a rarity among top guilds pre-TBC. I’m not sure where it came from, but it is the most pathetic thing i’ve ever seen. Its just a game! The only thing that made it more compelling that non online games was that sense of community and online friends. When it becomes about gear and being most leet on the server, is it really fun? Alot of those elitist raiders are now seeing that gear that was their life are now annoyed that others will have it now and they won’t be so special. Guess what? You were never special to begin with cause you had better gear than others.

Hopefully, 2.4 and WotLK will bring the cycle full circle. Hopefully, people will realize its not about the gear. Its about the people you play with. You spend hours and hours a week with these people. Wouldn’t it be better to find a good online friend instead of just some number on a raid roster so you can get epic loot? I still keep in touch with some of my old guildies that have left WoW. I may never meet them in real life, but if I do, i’ll buy them a beer and have a few laughs. WoW has lost is luster since the disbanding of my guild. The only reason I still play is because there is nothing out there that I feel like playing…yet


On March 17, 2008 at 9:48 pm

Ok, people like you have absolutely no idea.

You have no clue whatsoever raiding is like, and since you don’t you cannot have a valid opinion whether it’s fine to give content (and gear) to players who either a.) don’t want to put the effort in or b.) don’t have the time.
As for b, there are 12 hour a week guilds that are in BT now, that’s 4 hours for 3 nights a week on weekdays.

Currently, raids require guilds to continually farm an instance EVERY week, even though that guild has completed it 7 months ago. That’s 7 months of raiding to maximize my character to be prepared for the next released instance. Now even after that 7 months (and that’s since our first Illidan kill, I’v been continuously raiding since January) I STILL need upgrades from BT since they have low drop rates, and many people still want them. Nearly every single person in our guild still wants/needs something from BT/Hyjal after 7 months of full clears.

Now please elaborate where the limit is for how much time a raider spends getting gear, where a casual can get the same quality gear for doing heroics/kara?

Just to clarify, the only reason we do raid any instance after the first kill is gear, unless that boss is freaking awesome (which at best is Illidan and RoS.)

There is simply no other reason to justify raiding an instnace after you clear it, except gear. Now when you introduce badge gear, where in some cases is better than anything in BT/Hyjal, you effectively wasted our time. Don’t give us that eventual gear obsoleting bull. We’ve been full clearing BT when our raid was still in craftables, t5 and even t4.

Making gear obsolete is fine every expansion is fine, but every instance? Yeh you can take that and shove it.


On March 17, 2008 at 9:52 pm

By obsolete i mean replacing gear from an easier method. Upgrading through tougher content isn’t obsoleting.


On March 17, 2008 at 10:00 pm

In response to Cenobyte, I somewhat agree. However, I started out as casual and elevated up to hardcore. There are many casual players who CAN be skilled at end-game raids. It’s just that they are denied the chance because many high-end guilds are either not looking for anymore recruits or they won’t waste the time to attune recruits for BT/MH. But I do agree that we should not devalue the hard work people have put into in BT/MH while casual players get to walk into BT/MH. That’s why I think hard core raiders should get some sort of recognition that they actually worked hard and are rewarded for it.

In response to Tuck, if I was a rude /elitist jerk I’d say if a trained monkey could do it, why can’t you? And stick to that. However if you are happy as a casual player, that’s fine. I stayed casual pre-TBC. Just respect those who put in hard work to see that content that you are fine without seeing. If you’re insulting it, that just means you’re jealous. Otherwise you’d have no other reason to ridicule it.


On March 17, 2008 at 10:05 pm

I played since the first raids, and spent 260days on one char. Honestly i’m really tired of the game at the moment, at the same time i don’t really care about the prequests getting removed etc. What i am worried about is how the game is turning into some _VERY_ Boring . I mean if you want something in wow atm as a casual player you need to do some boring for either, HONOR farming (I cant imagine anything more boring, its cool for like 1 hour if you borrow a mates acc and play a new class, but thats it seriously). Then if you want the “casual” pve gear for badges you need to farm ty heroics or kara/za which is ok until you did it 3-4 times, the 2,4 rewards costs ALOT of badges, i calculated something like 490 – 550 badges for my warrior alt which is about 230-235 bosses in kara/za or 490-550 heroic bosses. Is that nuts ? ye, fun? _NO_

Everyone that played pre-tbc know’s what it was like to get epic items back then, you worked hard for it etc and it felt really epic to get some new cool gear.

When my guild had naxx on farm pre 2.0(pvp patch) we did Molten core pug every sunday at 13.30 and usually 60-70 randoms showed up whining for invites, basicly you had 60-70 random people getting up “early” on a sunday so they could try their luck on getting into a raid where like 30-40% where turned down. Now thats kinda cool, i mean do you think that would be posseble now? i dont.

My guild killed illidan early august and two weeks later we had MH/BT clear in 2 days, where MH took about 2hours and BT 4hours30mins if we did it without any mess. Outside this time there is nothing to do what so ever for me, i dont need badges, i dont need honor, i dont need gear from 5mans/heroics i dont need any pots. Then the only thing left is arena.

Now back to the arena thing, i leveled my warrior alt to 70 before xmass to do some arena since my main class is not wanted for that. Now 3-4 months after i am still missing 2 of the honor gear parts, the honor farming which is REQUIED for arena is so god damn boring im amazed that blizzard even let people do it.

If you want something special in wow atm the _only_ thing you can do is farm the Baron mount which is 101% luck based you can farm baron for 5 years without getting a mount due to the low drop rate, now thats cool.

Even the WS mount got nerfed down to a 1day rep grind.

I seriously see where blizzard is going with the game, and i understand 100% since its the best way to make the majority of their players happy and stuff, but with the insane amounts of cash they earn every month i don’t see why they cant add some stuff for the HC players to the game that will be only available for those that are willing to spend xxhours getting some item/mount/recipe/spell.

Raiding atm is piss boring, and the fun of it lasts for a month tops, which is not enough in my opinion (1month of fun once or twice every year? no)

Myself i will stay until sunwell is cleared for my guilds sake, then im out. Its just not a game for the hardcore anymore, while the casual content sucks balls and is based on the most _boring_ ever -GRINDING-.

Every RPG game should have some kind of unique feeling when it comes to progressing your char by gathering gear/leveling skills, this is what wow has lost with tbc in my opinion.

level your char by killing mob x until you hit 70, enter alterac valley, spend 200 hours in alterac valley, move to arena, play arena for 2 months before you have the best gear there, then you are ready for some “Serious omfg esport arena owning!!” considering you rolled the right class.


On March 17, 2008 at 10:23 pm

I’ve raided hardcore for the last 2 years. Honestly Blizzard is killing the raiding community with their “opening content for everyone”.
They aren’t opening content for anyone, what they are doing is handing out rewards to everyone for less and less work.
There is no REAL gear check in TBC so far (as of pre 2.4), gear is not what is stopping most guilds from seeing past the 1st 3 bosses of BT.
I’ve ran Hyjal who knows how many times for a pair of pants (I’ve been exalted for months (one of the worst rep grinds ever)), and now I get better in 2.4 with just 4 runs of Karazhan! So lets see, I can run MH for 6+ months and not get an item or I can spend a total of 10 hours in Karazhan and get an even better item!

I’m in a guild that is top 50 US and we cant even recruit people. The time and effort is no longer worth the reward. When you’re in high end raiding all that is left to do when not raiding is PvP and the gear we gain is completely worthless in that entire aspect of the game.

Open up attunments FINE. Hand out gear that guilds would have used when attempting to learn newly opened up content SURE.
BUT handing out gear that is even better then the newly opened instances defeats the entire purpose of opening those attunments.

Its not that people couldn’t do the instances, its that people didn’t want to put in the time then, and they wont want to put in the time now. Giving them superior gear wont change a thing.


On March 17, 2008 at 10:59 pm

Hardcore, hardly.

My guild and I have successfully cleared content on a 3 day raid week, 4 hours a night. Not to mention that we were only a day behind a hardcore guild for Illidan.

None of Blizzard’s content requires a hardcore guild, everything can and has been done on a light schedule.

Silly People

On March 17, 2008 at 11:00 pm

First, as far as I am concerned, the only people deserving of titles are the ones that first cleared a raid instance on each server. Not those just in the guild, not those that showed up later, just the ones that put in the work to get the big guys down first. The rest of you, no matter how hard you worked, no matter how much of your life you sacrificed (?? for a game ??), you succeeded in part to others hard work. As with all great accomplishments, we just build upon the ones that came before. That does not diminish the earlier accomplishments and should not diminish the latter ones either.

As for the talk of badge gear and pvp gear, I will get upset when I see members of our top raid guilds burn all their pvp gear, stop collecting badges, and stop farming mats for enchants and crafted gear (who’s patterns came off mere trash mobs). If you snub such gear just because it comes from an ‘impure’ source, you are a fool, and don’t belong in a top raiding guild. If you are in such a purist guild that you will not stoop to use this gear to round out you gear, I will laugh at you.

If you think it is easy to get such gear, it just shows that you haven’t tried. I have a resto druid that is not good at pvp (shock). I have gone to the trouble to collect some bits of gear. I have raided with some that have tons of top pvp gear and suffered wipes because they think they can solo bosses. Pvp gear is not raid gear for most classes and builds, but it can fill in the gaps if gemmed and enchanted properly. Otherwise many guilds would never progress for waiting for Kara, Gruul, SSC, etc. drops.

Similar for badge gear, if you think you can just sign on and start with pre-Kara gear and collect 300+ badges for a ring and 3 pieces of armor, doing heroics and a once a week Kara run, good luck. You are talking about months of hard work. If you think you can get into Risen with that gear and nothing more, good luck to you. If you think it is easy to get 25 toons run by people, with real lives, geared up this way, get them online at the same time, ready to go, more power to you.

In the end, the game is trying to accomodate those that pvp and may never step foot into your precious raid instance. There are those that will play for the social aspects. There with be those that fight for the right to say they were first at something. And there will be those that wish to sample all aspects of the game. It’s all good, but when you say that your way is the only way, I may weep for you when you have a stroke at age 30 when Blizz makes WoW obsolete.

Sorry for the long wind, just needed to blow off some steam. :)


On March 17, 2008 at 11:03 pm

as a pre bc raider who spent more time raiding then actually working irl or enjoying a RL … im honestly fine with them opening up attunements… i dont have the time nor the patience to deal with all the kiddies who think their uber gods with all their purples.. yeah i used to have full T3 on my mage from mc and BWL and the aq’s but how many hours spend i spend in there only to DE the items when bc came out .. yeah this time around im playing the game for fun yeah ive ran kara-tk-ssc etc etc but im tired of spending hours in raids when i have rl to deal with maybe if i was a kid or a college kid who had no real life or mortgage to deal with id be pissed .. but wow is a game meant to be enjoyed not crapped on.. if they dumb it down who cares.. their make ppl like me happier who are very casaul players now still pay our 14.99 a month the hardcore raiders grats on what youve done heres a cookie i did all that prebc and was with a guild that was top 50 as well in game..alliance side… but blah to each their own… i wont care if run bt or mt nor do i really care if im decked out in all purples as long as im happy is all i care about and im having fun ..enough said…this is a game right arent you supposed to have fun ?


On March 17, 2008 at 11:05 pm

Blizzard is effectively doing for World of Warcraft what Nintendo did for Super Mario Bros. by adding the hidden warps to take you to the later levels of the game…except I guess it’s even more dumbed down since the warps in Mario were hidden.
Why should someone have to beat the levels preceding the final one just to get to play it? Geez what kinda games did you guys grow up playing!? Nazi games that made you actually beat ALL the levels?


On March 17, 2008 at 11:08 pm

“It’s all good, but when you say that your way is the only way, I may weep for you when you have a stroke at age 30 when Blizz makes WoW obsolete.”

What does someone who is not raiding need gear that is better then T6? I play a Shadow Priest and I SLAUGHTER mobs with my current gear, does the worst DPS class in the game need to 2 shot daily mobs for people to be satisfied.
Raiders do the gear grind to help them prepare for future bosses, but what is the point of that gear grind that all raiders have gone through if they are just going to give away items that are superior a few months down the road. And yes badge gear is free compared to running an instance for 6 months for an item which 3 different classes want and the piece only drops once.


On March 17, 2008 at 11:10 pm

Raiding is now the HARDEST way to obtain gear (unless you are leaching off of others hard work). It was already the most inconvenient way, but now being the hardest, it wont be long until its an obsolete venture.


On March 18, 2008 at 12:14 am

to raiders: ok so you got to everything before everyone. grats. but now you dont want anyone else to get there. why do hardcor raiders care so much about what other people do and how they do it so much?

so what if blizz is making it easier for others? you already completed it the hard way. that self accomplishment will stay with you and give you a great story to tell. I did all the raids pre-BC and ill tell you this, it felt kinda cool to get to see the 40 man raid stuff. but after BC no one asked me about it, no one cared. it you are complaining because you got to BT first and want others to know how great you are to fill your ego thats not cool.

after bc came out i brought some friends to the game and got to tell them of all the stuff they missed out on and how cool it was (including old school AV. it was AWESOME!) but those stories are only told to people i know. hardcore raiders just need to keep raiding and not care about anyone else and what they do. if being the first to accomplish something or enjoying the lore is how you enjoy the game then do that, but dont insult others for trying to reach something that you have accomplished.

finally, the badge thing: that takes work. Making a 2300+ arena team and getting the S3 gear takes work. Grinding for honor for days on end with the ever crappy alliance takes work. doing kara/heroics for hundreds of badges takes work. if you think that these people arent as good as you b/c you raid then you are sad. “Welfare epics” has to be the dumbest term if ever heard. ive done both raiding and pvp and let me tell you this: NEITHER is easy. One allows for on and off play at your own pace and the other requires alot of time at once.

The honor grind as most put it is considered the easiet way to get gear. but the raiders seem to forget the simmilarites between honor grinding and having a instance on farm. it becomes repetitive and old fast.

i apoligize if my thoughts are a bit scrambled but its 1 a.m. and i dont feel like tryin to write a accurate and cited essay for a post on a site that no one will probably ever read.


On March 18, 2008 at 12:21 am

All you angry people are jus morons. Like few others have said and which is true, NORTHREND is about 6-9months away. GET OVER IT. Their making the game enjoyable to people who can’t enter BT. QQ?


On March 18, 2008 at 12:23 am

I remember when i started this game years ago, I was very disappointed at how few options there where to change the way your character looked. Then I walked into Ironforge for the 1st time and noticed how different all the characters looked in all their different gear set ups. Now as today as a horde I walk in Undercity and see 10 people wearing the same season 1 Gladiator gear. The same badge gear, homogonezing everything into the same dull characters I first played at level 1 years ago.


On March 18, 2008 at 12:45 am

Casuals and welfare-pvp’ers are in for a very rude awakening with 2.4 I think.
Seems like lots of people in this (very long) thread think that Blizz opening BT/MH will be sure fire way to see Illidan or Archimonde.

A sack full of badges and welfare epics does not mean blazing through BT/MH, far from it.

Is Blizzard dumbing down WoW? Maybe. I believe that most casuals (despite attunmenent nerfing, welfare pvp epics and badge loot on par with T6) wont get to see most of BT/MH before WotLK. Simply because they havent got the raid dynamics you aquire while learning fight like Kael etc. Gear is important, but skill, raid cooperation, theory crafting, understanding of game mechanics and patience is far more important.
To sum up – There will however be lots og 1/5 MH, 1/9 BT guilds about :)

When I see a badge/pvp welfare epic geared peep I think…Meh!
Someone wearing full T6, wielding double Illidan glaives i think….Yeah!


On March 18, 2008 at 12:45 am

It’s just business.


On March 18, 2008 at 12:53 am

You do know that all these “elitists” and “no lifers” clear BT/HYjal in 2 raid days time, and then don’t even log into WoW untill the next raiding week starts? Who is the “no-lifer”? Them? Or the “casual” that farms AV 5 days a week for his Gladiator Set?


On March 18, 2008 at 1:12 am

The only thing i have a problem with is that we are on Vashj and have been there a few weeks.This is the first boss that brought out the “evil faces” of a great guild.I dont want a give me in the patch i want to see us overcome it.We have attendance problems on “Vashj” night.I hate to see ppl show up and rape the rewards of free epics on regular raid nights and when facing progression dont show up.
There are two types of ppl that play video games
1 the ones who want to expirience something great and have a sense of accomplishment.
2 the ones that want to put in cheat codes and kill mine numbingly till bored
and move on.
Theres no real adventure in this game(a shame)just feats of accomplishments and when you start catering to #2 above you make the #1′s move on to better games.
I just have a problem with ppl not paying there dues in life ,in video games, in whatever…..but thats the way of the new world get the most out of the least time invested.


On March 18, 2008 at 1:23 am

I’m not sure this has been mentioned in the abundance of above post, only read through one fourth of the comments who pretty much contained the same arguments tossed back and forth. However, even though I do somewhat agree with OP, the way Blizzard is doing this still leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.

That they lift attunements is possibly a great move, allowing content to be more accessible, and from an economical POV its also a good move. However, playing a t6 geared shadowpriest, I now have to buy the best weapon in the entire game for my class when sunwell hits (before we start raiding the new content) – from badges. The dagger for 150 badges is on par with season 3 mace, even better, and will be the best weapon available to my class/spec until we knock down Brutallus.

The bow available for 150 badges is better than both the bow from Archimonde and from Illidan.

If you don’t see where I’m headed with all of this,the new badges rewards, and the epic gems being available to the public aswell, doesnt only give players ‘struggling’ in t5 content a smooth transition into the new content they have available – it gives them a massive advantage. As a poster stated, very few of the fights are gear dependant, its the execution of the tactics which is the challenge. They might need a headstart – not better weapon than the instance drops in loots before they even have zoned in. Which semihardcore pve guild would bust their ass to clear hyjal when it only drops loot and epic gems that they already have or have better than?


On March 18, 2008 at 1:51 am

before it was GAME now its just commercial product / i bet there max 1-2 million real players instead of 10 ( w banned/canceled)and other play wow cos it is quite the thing


On March 18, 2008 at 1:59 am

LOl @ bad kids who cant even get past ssc/tk now. If you cant do it now with how easy it is you dont deserve to see Hyjal/BT. Raiding in your greens and blues and you still cant down vashj or kael.


On March 18, 2008 at 2:15 am

The whole point is to boost players gear level so Sunwell gets experianced by the majority before the exp.

When the exp hits every lvl 70 instance gets outdated, the fact they are outdating SCC and TK early means little.

The point of raiding in this game is to progress and have fun, not to brag about your awesome character’s gear in comparison to others. If this IS your view you need to stop playing and go outside or something.

Besides it’s only gear getting upgraded. Skill management + Raid awareness beats gear everytime. Illidan has been downed by people in Naxx gear, while people with near full T6 have struggled on him for months.


On March 18, 2008 at 2:25 am

Lets open BT for everyone that couldnt clear ssc and tk.
But the problem is that they cant kill anything in there because they didnt have the skills to kill the end bosses.

Gratz to an unsolved problem.


On March 18, 2008 at 2:32 am

When I started to play wow some years ago, after closing in on lvl 60 i watched movies from this site and I was “DAMN, that armor looks really cool,and the dmg bow was great..skills all over the place”

You can call those players idols really, because “i want to be just as good and geared as him”

For my case I played a hunter, getting into MC begining guild working our way trough BWL ,we started from scratch, and it was damn fun..and in the end i got the hunter quest, i made the quest in 1 day. showing my bow off was great.And actually putting some effort into it I managed to get it. “omg you got the bow,,damn i want that!!”


On March 18, 2008 at 2:39 am

What I haven’t understood about lifting attunements is, if you aren’t able to complete the quests to enter a particular raid instance, couldn’t it be said you won’t be able to progress in said instances. Even with >T6 badge gear a large base of casual players/guilds will likely not see all of Hyjal nor BT. Casuals with less time to play during the week will for the most part never make it past Azgalor and the only part of BT they will see is the sewer they enter in. If getting the new badge gear makes those instances now accessible “gear wise” then wouldn’t that make the attunement process that much easier? The only thing left holding you back would be time, and if you don’t have time to clear SSC/TK what makes you think you now have time for Hyjal/BT? I mean that isn’t the casual counter to the elitist hard core raider qq on this subject, that progression in current raids is lots of time+gear. With 2.4 the gear part is now out of the equation all that’s left is numerous hours learning encounters and moving past them aka. time, something the average casual claims to not have or not willing to dedicate.

This random noob predicts the % of players seeing/completing current end game content to stay relatively the same. Though the number of guilds clearing kara in record times will rise :p
Near free gear may mean 25 man Sunwell is now accessible everyone, but I believe it’s safe to say the majority of people who will actually clear/farm it before WotLK will still be the 2%* with the other 98%* still not being able to see most of it.

*percentages and the internet we all know how much bs these figures are, I used them as they are the common tiny base hard core huge base casual lolwowforum figure.

Then again what do I know I’m just a…random noob.


On March 18, 2008 at 2:46 am

I’m just wondering though, I hear alot of these casual gamers say “I want to experience all the content, but I don’t have the time to dedicate to it as hardcore raiders do” etc. How do you with this mindset think you’re going to experience that content? Get your new t6 badge loot and try to pug it? Believe me that you won’t be getting to see alot of that content based on having the gear for it.

I for one am a hardcore gamer, not so much a hardcore raider. I do like to raid, but more in the sense of progress, though some nice rewards are always welcome. I’m in a ‘casual’ raidingguild, currently working on SSC and TK. I’d love to see Hyjal and BT. I don’t really have any objections to the removal of the Hyjal/BT attunements, but not because I don’t want to go through it myself. Infact, even with the removal I will still complete the questchains, because that’s just a personal ingame achievement for me. And if it opens up the possibility for more people to go see Hyjal and BT, well, only fun for them. But like I said, to actually really experience that content, you will have to put in alot of effort anyhow.

The new badge loot does sadden me a bit though. Not so much that now everyone can wear equal gear with minimal effort to t5-t6, but imo it kind of devalues the Tier-sets. The only thing that will differentiate now is a setbonus, which in my opinion is not really something special anymore to have. Tier-sets always had a special meaning to me, but now that kind of vanishes because of these rewards. I don’t really know how to explain it, but they just seem to lose that specialness.

Btw, judged on the screens from PTR, golfclap to Blizz’s graphical department concerning the skins of 2.4 patch sets. You’ve just succeeded in me not wanting to get any of the sets based on their ugly appearance.


On March 18, 2008 at 2:49 am

The article writer has a very obtuse way of seeing things which reminds me of a frustrated 12 year old who wants to drink beer like the grown ups.

If you:

a) are a casual and play 1-2 hours per day
b) didn’t kill Vasj or Khael

Then you actually don’t need atunement removal and all that gear. What for? Since you’re such a wonderfull casual, as all people want to say: I WORK AND I HAVE A WIFE AND 2 KIDS, I IZ CASUAL. GIEF T6 GEAR LIKE THE NO-LIFERS, KEKE?

Wtf is that? Why do you need T6 gear if you have a wife and neither the time/patience to explore and to comit to killing an END GAME BOSS. ?


On March 18, 2008 at 3:11 am

What the writer of the OP doesnt realize is that this will cause more elitists attitude in the wow community. He is saying that the current reward for clearing bt/mh is credibility but what about the ones that are half way through the instance now? when 2.4 comes all these guilds will get no credit for it since the gear and the challenge was taken out of it. When they down illidan most of the guilds that cleared it prior to 2.4 will say so what?


On March 18, 2008 at 3:33 am

Oh I still remember that feeling when our guild got our first kill on KT or Cthun.
It felt like your effort of 5-6 hour raiding 5-6 times in a week really felt like you had archieved something in the game and the gear obtained this way was far superior than the casual players who play 1h per day could archieve. Outgearing casuals at pvp was fun for me but ofc not fun for them. Though if I spend more time with something ofc its obvious that I should benefit from it. If casuals want to archieve something by playing 1h per day then they should reroll tetris.
What comes to 2.4, I dont care so much because I havent been raiding since Gruul(hard version). But I think removing attunements is only a good thing since there was never an attunement in pre tbc which required doing raid instance. The gear itself was kind of an attunement. Its way easier to guilds when they dont need to do attunement runs for new recruits who dont have them or rerollers.
Well it was seen that this easy obtained pve gear was coming after easy obtained pvp gear. Now every casual can have that high end gear just doing some easymode instances. Though obtaining them only takes a little longer but requires no effort, same as pvp gear nowdays.
What comes to my play style, I think im going to stick on “casual” gaming though I still use lots of time for it becouse I still want to archieve something fast.
Wow has been great game for these 3 years but seems that blizzard is only making this game for their main audience now, casuals.


On March 18, 2008 at 3:42 am

I love it. This happens every single time Blizzard lifts attunements. And guess what changes after the patch is released?


Raiders still raid, and casuals don’t. Epeens don’t end up getting bruised. The sky doesn’t fall. If you’re spending too much time thinking about this either way, I pity you.


On March 18, 2008 at 3:46 am

What a lot of people fail to realize is that hardcore players don’t mind there not being attunements etc, but the fact that attunements are being REMOVED. And that Blizzard uses this as a strategy to slow down raiders while later making it easy for casuals. If Blizzard intends to continue this strategy I would advise them to just SKIP attunements in the first place. Because as a game mechanic of making it harder for the first comers just to remove it later is getting old.

Old school

On March 18, 2008 at 3:50 am

We have to be very realistic,Blizzard “DO NOT CARE” about you people,casual or hardcore raiders,Blizzard employeers are interested in pure profit they get from game.They help from time to time acting like they care but end line is that they make patches and changes that will boost their profit not help the players in it.
And to all my fellow hardcore raiders i have to say this : Be proud they you achieved something a lot of people never saw pre-bc,that you knew what was real leadership,that you knew how it feels like killing ragnaros,nefarian for 1st time yelling on TS and thinking you will get hearth atack(Cause you spent last months going for that goal),that you showed pure grinders and farmers of GM gear how it feels like to be smashed with tier2-2.5 gear and equal wpns,and that you marched to Ironforge and Stormwind in all youre glory while all other could just /drool,no one will say grats to you but you will always know how it felt being a
real raider caring about ppl in guild as friends not just game players.

buster oeo

On March 18, 2008 at 4:18 am

Grundy says:
March 5th, 2008 at 8:07 pm well said man thats a raiders spirit …sorry i didnt read others ppl below but its too much and it would take me hours … the guy that said wow is like macdonals and u shouldnt eat crap cause others do … noone forced u &*^$head u do what u like u can do pvp u can do hardcore pve anythign u want but … u canot fack pve with what happens and dotn touch pvp …in my server everyguild is made gest disband cause every facken guy is pvp focused only and the rest of us cant find reliable guys.another thing i got fang of vashj and worked really hard to get it and that shows what i ahve done (in a server that have changed 7 guilds allways moving to a worst ofc than what i was) and now my precius 100 dps item will mean nothing at 2.4 …that is pve progress of 5 months turns into nothing with facken badges … u ruin phicology of raiders blizz and that will cost ya…alot !!!!

buster oeo

On March 18, 2008 at 4:22 am

ps of ps :neutral: i talked about things with ppl that were in kel thizad be4 tbc u knwo whta they told me? only pvp now man cause when u raid 1 year and u see all u have done going to nothing just do pvp that u can log anytime u want and solo then or need just 5 man for arena …why get myself facked again


On March 18, 2008 at 4:27 am

It’s just a game.

The players that have the money are the casuals. The raiders are living off their parents to feed their habit and hardcore raiders are dying because soon they will be forced to get a job…

When that happens, their hardcore guild will leave them in the dust. That cycle will keep repeating itself like an endless loop.

WoW is moving away from the gear-based game. Look at the success Guildwars PvP has had with Korea.


On March 18, 2008 at 4:27 am

This article actually proves a significant point at why Blizzard is opening up the gear for the players. They wish for majority of the players to enjoy what they made. It has been explained thoroughly and without any bias besides the “small” minority of those hardcore players who believe in elitist image.

Blizzard is a company, and yes they do this for profit. What company doesn’t? But they honestly can’t get every single people satisfied. If they change something, one group will cry. They do something else, the latter will moan. They can’t make a perfect MMO to get everyone happy. So deal with it.
What I; however, believed Blizzard ultimately failed on was destroying what was left of the original World of Warcraft into a whole new MMO. I’m pretty sure a number of people will agree with me that TBC is not the same as the original.

The honor and raiding system they implemented back then actually worked very well. Sure, it catered to those who had much time in their hands, but hey, they deserved it. The ranking system from 1-14 was a pretty balanced system that kept people going. Sure it had its flaws with the whole third-party issue going on, but nevertheless, it kept those who were skilled at the game at the top. Don’t get me as an elitist just trying to make an opinion. I was never in a top raiding guild nor was I a heavy PvPer grinding for the honor. The only point I like to make was that the original WoW divided both the PvPers and the PvE’ers into two seperate sections.

Arena was where the entire balance came crashing down. Nowadays, PvE’ers could be PvPers due to the scaling of the raiding gears on them. PvE’ers became the best PvPers since TBC. I hate how they allowed for a merge between the two and destroyed the entire concept of having two seperate branches coming out representing a PvP group and a PvE group.


On March 18, 2008 at 4:29 am

Too much said. Making end-game accessable and doable to the vast majority of wow players means you NEED toma it ridicoulously EASY cause the vast majority of players are either useless with their class, are either undergeared cause they dont play the game nearly as much as they need to and finally they are not comitted to the game so they can really help a guild to progress through that content.

There was numerous nerfs in attunments/raid expenses/drop loots/pvp gear choices so even retards can progress in pve, but still yes the vast majority cant do it.

Next step from blizzard is opening all gates/handling out tons of gear so u can actually PUG end game instances, cause the MAJORITY of wow players, are not capable for nothing better than a pug.

This easy mode thing will destroy the game little by little starting from the so called “elitist” players cause the game will become even more easy which means it will get consumed at 100% very fast. And what happens if u finish super mario? YOU STOP PLAYING IT.

Sorry but not everyone is supposed to complete game content. Not all that buy other pc or console games are supposed to finish them. Games should be hard for the shake of making a game. A game needs a challenging difficulty level, and in a mmo game that has to demand teamplay(attunments), time spent(long farms for needed gear) etc so u get to ur finall goal.

buster oeo

On March 18, 2008 at 4:35 am

question? in games arent the good players and bad ones? why u have to fack the good players cause others are bad and u know what happens when good players leave? all the trash remains :P any comment?

buster oeo

On March 18, 2008 at 4:45 am

from i c that blizz cares about the good players… so why fack them yes yes “the nolife ones” pitty


On March 18, 2008 at 4:53 am

I’ve read most of the constructive comments I’ve found here (80% of the comments are .)
- – -
First of all you’ll need to understand that if someone is playing hardcore is his decision and it’s totally NON of your business to comment on it.
INTERNET! SERIOUS BUSINESS! Where men are men, women are men and the little kids are cops on duty.
There should ALWAYS be a gap between the casual gamers and the hardcores. You know why? EVEN IF I TELL YOU WHY you wouldn’t probably understand the reason.
It’s the time, money, hours of farming reputation consumables, everything to level the character’s potential at its maximum and therefore be effective in a raid. You all “casual” players should experience those things first hand and then we’ll see if you change your opinion on the subject or not. But that’s how life is, you do not totally respect something given to you easily.
Do you know that downing a new boss after numerous wipes is actually a unique feeling for a hardcore gamer? No. Cause you casual gamers all you know is what easily accessible content means.
Personally I do have cleared the whole content for some time now and I feel somehow stupid tbh that people that will not need to work as hard as I and my Guild did to reach and conquer the endgame content.

About he “EPICS” part. Epics are INDEED the reward of beating those difficult encounters and that’s what seperates hardcore gamers from casuals. Do you expect to have a same character Item-Level when playing 5 hours / week with someone who’s actually RAIDING 5 hours per day?
Are you that retarded to find a single reason for this to happen?
Once again I remind you, being a hardcore gamer is a decision made by the gamer and it’s NOT of your business to criticise what he could do at his spare time instead of playing WoW, do not judge not to be judged.

I will conclude with my personal opinion about the posters above:

Myself, I am a hardcore gamer, I know who I am, I know what I want from my life right now. What I want is to study so I get my Bachelor, socialize with my close friends at its maximum and play WoW. That’s what I want, that’s what I like doing at that chapter of my life.
All of you posting “go haev sekz!” or similar bull like this you just seem to be another immature child in my eyes, a 15yo that was given the power to press the Submit button without asking for parental permission.

O tempora, o mores.
(It’s Latin you “real lifers”.)


On March 18, 2008 at 5:10 am

As I read about this and hear alot about this topic (not comments here, tldr..),
I believe people fail to see the real problem.
It’s all nice that people can have the feeling of having the best gear ingame, but there has always been a road to achieve that. A long one, this is true, but it only makes you feel better when you finally walked down it and see the result of your time and effort. It seems Blizzard removed this road.

I understand people want to feel the feeling of having high quality items as well, but they forget that when you remove the effort required, the feeling is lost as well. ‘Yay another epic! Next…’

Also Blizzard has forgotten about those who freshly ding 70 these days. The only way to get gear now is to go to battlegrounds straight away, or get a few lame runs through KZ to leech some epix.

If you let people have access to BT/MH equivalent gear through badges, then give them a chance to get access to badges in a normal way. Healers and dps can go arena and have some gear to be somewhat viable to run heroics, but Tanks are the ones ruled out.

Make an alternative char, spec it prot and ding 70; you’ll see what I mean.
The only way to get gear for heroic dungeons is to get questrewards to be able to tank normal dungeon, and those normal dungeons to have gear for heroics. The current system has had people skip this part, but for tanks it’s an unavoidable process.

IF Blizzard wishes people to have access to all gear: fine. But keep in mind those who make alternative chars as well as those who’ve just started playing. Tanks in particular.

About the ‘elitist-behaviour’ the so called ‘casual-players’ seem to be annoyed with: QQ moar?
Do realise that they have a point, they spent alot of time in getting their stuff. Now their best items have look-a-like versions in pvp, making their t6 look like rubbish.
The effort for these look-a-like versions is significantly less, making it another huge blow in their face.

So be original in pvp ‘looks’ or, as you’ve mentioned in this post, give these people something that indeed shows how much effort they’ve put in the game.

Just a few changes in the game could make this whole discussion void. I hope people will have a thought about it and I hope Blizzard will make the right choices before they lose 1 million players. Which they will with the announced changes.


On March 18, 2008 at 5:19 am

I doubt that peoples are mad about blizz removing bt and hyjal attument. At least Im not. What Im really mad about is my loot from there becoming 2nd best. I.. or lets say those who raided bt spent weeks clearing the content. I dont mind how many guilds will go there after 2.4, but its just cracy that a stupid vendor sells better wapons and armor than any temple boss dropps, except those two legendary swords. I dont have a problem with vendor items being very close to bt and hyjal items, but they shouldnt be better.


On March 18, 2008 at 5:23 am

MMORPGs must have something for players to aspire to, even if they can’t see this content themselves. I never had any chance to get into Naxx pre-tbc, but I knew this cool and mysterious place existed, and that certainly had effect on my game. Just what is the point of playing the game like WOW, where you go on for months and months, if not years, if there’s nothing cool you can do in the game? If conquering hardest dungeon and kiling last boss is reduced to level of “meh, everyone’s doing that so I might as well go do it too”? “Casuals” here (scarequotes because they aren’t casual, they are just lazy) are celebrating those changes, claiming that they are done on their behalf, and that they improve game for them. But that’s just the opposite of truth. Those changes are making game more bland and boring for everybody, including very same people applauding them. In time, they will realize it too.


On March 18, 2008 at 5:33 am

The point, as i c it, is not that someone will get the gear, since as u say i will always know how he got his gear and how i got my gear, the point is that if some person didnt have the a) time or b) brains to clear hyjal/bt he wont get time or brains with gear. Yes i know that in this game gear is a big factor in both PvP and PvE, but i have to say even if it offends someone if u didnt clear bt/hyjal u have nothing to do in sunwell. And yet despite that many casual guilds will storm into sunwell with their new gear, making the already bad servers lag even more. Ofc they will c that its just not for them after few weeks, but they will ruin other ppl fun by forcing them to play with lag spikes etc.

So, the question has to be asked, why give ppl the gear, when 90% of them wont clear hyjal or bt or even sunwell, because its just who they are. So are ppl getting gear just to epeen in a major city? Because i highly doubt that a big amount of guilds that never killed illidan or archimond will clear sunwell. There is only one option how many might do i and its having sunwell up for 6 months before release of wotlk, something like bt is now before release of sw, and nurff the boss from time to time, so every brain afk person can kill them.

Now, if blizzard plans that, which i hope they arent, thats just stupid because atm it is rly hard to find a good reason to come and play wow for ppl who finished all pve and have what they need in pvp, and if wotlk will hit 6 months after sw is out, i think that many ppl might and will say c ya world of casualcraft and go into aoc or war who i hope will be more hc games.


On March 18, 2008 at 5:38 am

“This represents what I believe to be a fundamentally flawed viewpoint. This represents the elitist, exclusionist attitude that many casual players have long said makes MMO’s less fun for them. The idea that giving more players access to dungeons or loot devalues the accomplishments of those who have already completed those challenges is ridiculous.”

I could not agree with you more. And quite frankly, in the end, the only thing Blizzard is trying to do is to make the game enjoyable for all, and I really don’t see how anyone could argy ageinst this unless they have a selfish personal agenda.


On March 18, 2008 at 5:41 am

Those changes are making game more bland and boring for everybody, including very same people applauding them. In time, they will realize it too.

I am noticing it, it took my mage alt 2 months to get 1000 fire damage 32% crit (top of every pug instance I have done in DPS) and 250 resilience with 900 spell dmg in frost….

The game isn’t a challenge with all this accessible gear… and now that I have it all the only thing I can do other than raid is do BG’s however they are all Premades so they are boring after 4 or 5 in a row…
The game is now so easy it’s boring, even though Hyjal/BT were only accessible to 1% of the top skilled players (my main included) it was stupidly easy, not much of a challenge and I can’t understand why.

I predict Sunwell will be cleared within 2 weeks of being open. I also predict, unless Blizzard ups the ante in WOTLK they will lose a LOT of raiders and all the skilled casuals who don’t have enough time to waste grinding out easy epics…. that’s all it is, grind the same BG’s, Grind the same heroics… there is no progression anymore.

Arena is about the only not tainted part of the game and it shows as most classes get game breaking changes based on arena balance….


On March 18, 2008 at 5:43 am

If Blizzard dont change the fights (nerfing), we will see a lot of whining about bosses on forums, than blizzard nerf boss fight and haleluja all brainless player can kill TEH Auto-suicided Boss.


On March 18, 2008 at 5:53 am

“Arena is about the only not tainted part of the game and it shows as most classes get game breaking changes based on arena balance….”

How’s it “not tainted”? Everyone playing it can get same gear in time, minus weapon and shoulders. In fact, pve changes only make it close to arena system, where people are rewarded for failure.


On March 18, 2008 at 5:54 am

“So, the question has to be asked, why give ppl the gear, when 90% of them wont clear hyjal or bt or even sunwell, because its just who they are.”

“And yet despite that many casual guilds will storm into sunwell with their new gear, making the already bad servers lag even more. Ofc they will c that its just not for them after few weeks, but they will ruin other ppl fun by forcing them to play with lag spikes etc.”

Sakati you just proved my point, it’s text book elitist behavior, not only are you prejudging ppl, but you also think youre better then others and that somehow you have a special right to a certain place and that others don’t, and that they shouldn’t try to go there at all since it will lagg up the game for the players who deserve to be there…?

I could now use allot of harsh words because your negative behavior justifies it, but Im not going to, you want to know why…? Because quite frankly no matter what you say it’s not going to change a thing, the game has changed allot for the better and it’s just going to get better, and you can talk all you want about that ppl will get boored and leave to another game, when it’s the oposite, even more ppl will join the game because of the changes, so really the only thing youre doing with what youre saying is to expose youre self for the little selfish person that you are.


On March 18, 2008 at 6:02 am

There is no clear-cut division between “supports the changes” and “hardcore who wants casuals to walk up-hill both ways to Mt. Hyjal.” There are two issues with Blizzard’s recent changes: Progression and devaluation of progress. The absolute worst position any character or guild can be in is when they have “beat the game.” When there is no opportunity to progress, no content to explore, and no chance to update your character; no one is happy. More so than any hardcore/casual debate, it is important that Blizzard steps up the pace of content progression for all types of players, raiders included.

Casual players who feel entitled to experience every ounce of content in the expansion are just as bad as hardcore players who believe none of the raid-boss nerfs in BC were justified. Just because you bought a console game doesn’t mean you’re guaranteed to beat Extra-Hard-Xtreme-Mode, it means that you have the opportunity to do so. I’d much rather all this bickering stop and have blizzard address the real problem: Content creation.


On March 18, 2008 at 6:05 am

They are indeed dumbing down wow, but they have done that for a long time now, and that is nothing new. WRT attunements, I think that is good. Those who got nowhere in SSC/TK will get nowhere in BT, even with badges gear, because a) they suck, b) they dont invest enough time, or c) both. And they will suck even with t6 equivalent gears.

What is dumb is HOW they hand out this badges gear to the terribles. I would venture that a large part of it will be Kara, a perfect illustration of how their new “casual” raidsizes up the game. Getting a Kara guild is not hard, clearing Kara over a week is not hard, even for terribles and casuals. But in most cases, they failed terribly at 25man. So they stuck to running Kara, until they had all the gear they could get from there. And now they want more gear from running Kara, and blizz is giving it to them. And the only thing that will change is the time needed to come up to a reasonable standard in gear, since a larger part of the pop is getting better gear.

And the thing is. Most casual terribles accuse raiders of only raiding for gear. But themself are whining for it, to get it without doing anything they havent done before. And then, what are they to do with this gear? They will still suck, still fail 25man. World pvp is dead anyway, so they dont need it there. BGs are even more dead, filled with afkers and bots, so you dont need gear there either. At least the “elitists” will use their gear for something other than looking pretty, and clearing Kara for the umptenth time.

ps. wow is bad


On March 18, 2008 at 6:06 am

pps. in 2.4, mag will click the cubes for you, so that even those “casuals” might have a chance to kill him. gg. And you say they are not dumbing down wow?


On March 18, 2008 at 6:14 am

Initially I was part of a very good progressing guild on my server but due to time constraints I was forced to withdraw from raiding, untill recently where I was able to join another guild that raided at different times and I could experience it all over again ;-)

So I have been able to experience the really serious hardcore raiding style and the more laidback let’s see where we end up tonight raiding style, one could also call this casual. But basically I went from SSC/TK on farm back to not being able to kill Vashj and Kael again, and experiencing the attunement nightmare all over again. Having to reclear 2 zones entirely to get 4 people attuned cause there’s only 21 people able to zone into MH/BT is enormously frustrating. So for that aspect I applaud the attunement change etc. And guess what the week after 3 ppl quit playing so we had to reclear it ALL OVER AGAIN cause again we did not have 25ppl ready to raid the new zones. HURRAY FER BLIZZ!

The members who I still talk to of the first guild all where saying: OMG WTF welfare PvE epix!!11 We did so much for our FULL Tier6 with every slot decked out with the best possible piece, hey wait a minute, you got that stuff on farm for 6 months and you complain about 1 guy being able to buy a weapon for 150 badges? Just 1 slot he can upgrade versus the oh what 18 slots you did? Does that suddenly make your gear obsolete? Or the effort you did to get it? Was the gear not the reward for your efforts and that of your guild? Hardcore raiders are complaining that after 30 kills of Illidan they have 12 offhand but no mainhand glaive, man the game must sure suck for you guys!! We haven’t even seen Illidan yet and the attunement remove won’t suddenly make that a fact nor the fact that we get new weapons or pants.

So whoopy in my new guild the rogues get a nice DPS upgrade, ZOMG We can run Sunwell now! Eat that ultra hardcorde raiders! We’re on the same level progression wise woooooh!….Not really, at some point you’ll be decked out again and if luck permits we will have the 1st boss down since we still had to catch up to the rest of your Tier6 with 24 other people in order to do well in the new places, let alone kill some end bosses.

Fact is never thought I would see these new 25-mans but now I actually have a shot if time permits. So yeah, we’re in BT with our casual guild, whoopdidoo, 7 months after the world has it on farm status, who cares really. We did manage to get Kael and Vashj down before the attunements were removed, and that does make us feel proud of our accomplishments.

And about S3/S4 being better then PvE, so horribly false. You’ll never see any character perform well in 25man raids with their full PvP set ever, they hardly even make the top5 dps.

So what if Guild This or Guild That can be killing the 1st 3 bosses a week later cause the attunement is removed? Good for them, epics rule! :smile:


On March 18, 2008 at 6:32 am

As far as I know this is a roleplaying game.

In other word, different characters in this world experiences different thing. Each hero has their own story

Every hero differs in strength, gear, experience, wisdom bla bla bla.

I just simply dont like that they giving the player a chance to skip the story. Why were we fighting illidan now again? Why was there a guy that required you to do things in order to gain his thrust. That he had to know you were capable of bringing down for example in this scenario Illidan.

Im not against removing attunements. They could had skipped removing attunement to Black Temple that way they had preserved their own story – which is in this expansion: The Downfall of Illidan and his lackeys.

In my perspective it has become more of just random areas where people don’t understand what they are doing, they just wanna fill up the experience meter while leveling , and getting gear when they reach level 70.

My hero sure as hell has experienced a lot. He traveled into the depths of Blackrock mountain, faced both powerful elementals as to facing the might of the scourge, going back in history to fight the lord of outland.

I played 3 times in a week, on average 4 hours per night. I dont think that is much time spent on a hobby. Casuals can reach to see this and that given that they put some time in to learn and execute strategies, to have dedication and organisation. Im not saying that “it feels like people want the game to play their character” but sometimes they are just as much martyrs as these elitists you speak of make themselves.

Put more time into lore on scripted quests, U dont have to make them hard, just make people do them.


On March 18, 2008 at 6:43 am

The problem isn’t really that attunements is lifted nor that gear is handed out, it’s the fact that WOW completely removes the possibility to be on top/recognized/being an elite.

A game is never fun without the possibility to be a “winner”/on top/dominating. What WOW needs is some way to distinguish the greatest/elitist/winners from the rest. Every game has it’s “pro” and they are all recognized by their higher skills and success… Maradonna in Football, Anja Andersen in Handball, Björn Borg/Federer and so forth in Tennis, Arton Senna/Schumacher in racing, Fatal1ty in gaming, sweden in counterstrike and the list goes on and on and on. Problem is WOW doesn’t really have features that boost the expression of talent and individual skills so being able to clear instances and get certain type of gear has become the defacto way of showing you are better.

Find another way to differentiate between the skill-levels and it’s fixed.


On March 18, 2008 at 6:44 am

” played 3 times in a week, on average 4 hours per night.”

I meant I played 3 times per week and on those three occations it was 4 hours per raidtime ;p


On March 18, 2008 at 6:46 am

That bullshiet with MH\BT attu removal is rediculous.
Casuals cant see High End Instances cuz they are casuals ffs and they dont wana go there\they simply dont have time for this.
The Attunment system must stay cuz its some kind of exam, for example: if u killed Vashj & Kael and completed attu for MH u know that u can go further to MH and try those bosses. ppl who cant kill them will have no chance in MH\BT. That’s why attus must stay.

Ded Moroz

On March 18, 2008 at 6:53 am

How can people who don’t have the time to invest in the game honestly
and with a straight face expect, demand, that they get the same chance
for the content and the gear as those who spend countless hours on it?
Having an exacting job, family, hobbies, whatever, is no ameliorating
circumstance. Most things in life are such that you need to invest your
time to achieve them. Sure, WoW is “only a game”, but why in the end
should it be any different? Where is the sense of accomplishment if you
can take shortcuts to reach the same goals that others worked hard to
get to? A quite well-written narrative by a casual player sticks to my
mind; in it, he lamented how he will never be able to sit on his mount
in Ironforge, in full epic Tier X gear, a battle scarred veteran,
recounting his tales of conquering the world to a new wide-eyed player,
because he will never have a chance to see and experience it all due
to the time and effort that it takes… And then he proceeded to
postulate that this was somehow fundamentally unfair; that by paying
for the game and for the monthly subscription automatically entitled
him to the full experience, regardless of the amount of time that he
invested in it.

There is a parallel argument that seeks to justify using the leveling
and gold purchasing “services” that are so prevalent in WoW now. I had
this conversation with one of the proponents of these “services”. He
was convinced that because he worked hard for his career and therefore
didn’t have as much time to sink in the game as many other people, he
was entitled to use his own hard-earned money to level up the playing
field for himself within the game by paying someone else to put in
those hours of grinding for him.

These people miss the point of what MMOs are about. WoW isn’t a game
that you play from beginning to end and see the words “Game Over” flash
across your screen at some point. Ideally, no-one ever accomplishes
everything that there is to accomplish in the game; there should always
be more things to learn and discover and gain. The more time one spends
on the game, the more one should be able to accomplish, but no matter at
which relative point of this accomplishment spectrum you stand at, you
should never really compare yourself and your gear and accomplishments
with other players, but rather with what you yourself have done. Of
course you should have goals, but it’s useless to be envious or bitter
of others who have more in game than what you have currently. The same
applies to Real Life: you don’t expect your God or Government or Boss to
nerf things so that you can achieve the same position and salary than
someone else who had the talent, time, and the drive to go for it where
you didn’t. Or at least I would hope that you didn’t.

Almost three years ago now, when I was a recently level capped young
druid in a small guild of friends, the first epic instance, Molten Core,
was introduced, and those Cenarion armors sure did look yummy. A hopeful
PUG (pick-up group) formed to go see the wonders of this new dungeon,
and wiped at the pair of stone giants standing next to the entrance,
resulting in half the group losing its faith and leaving the raid. But
you know what, it didn’t matter to me any: clearly those new shinies
weren’t for me, but so what. I’m not about to drool after something that
I can’t accomplish, and I don’t do that in Real Life, either. I don’t try
to cheat and lie and pray for nerfs to fight my way to the top. If you
can only enjoy the game by having the best of everything that it has to
offer, perhaps you’re playing the wrong game. Think about it.

Later I did join a raiding guild and have now beaten Mount Hyjal and
Black Temple and wear the nicest PvE epics that there are in the game
right now. It doesn’t really make any difference to me that Blizzard
makes uber loot available to all and sundry for the price of heroic
badges; hey, it just gives me something else to do while not raiding
with my main character, when I gear up my alts with those things.
Besides, the number of badges that one needs to buy that stuff with
isn’t negligible, either, and those casual players will still need to
put up effort to get them. It’s perhaps charity, but it doesn’t come
for free, so it’s ok in my book.

I’ll close this rant with mention of the kind of nerf that I am not
comfortable with; namely, something that makes the gameplay itself more
simple, requiring even less thought than it does currently, which is
already very little. A case in point is the 2.4 change where most AoE
effects (cleave, swipe, multi-shot…) no longer hit the crowd-controlled
mobs. I can only deduce that Blizzard wants to make the game more
accessible to even larger crowds, who in one way or another are
coordination-challenged. Might I suggest that difficulty levels are
introduced, where the amount and quality of loot will depend on your
setting? Even better, have servers for serious gamers where things aren’t
nerfed to oblivion. Then everyone would be happy… Maybe.


On March 18, 2008 at 6:55 am

you :evil:


On March 18, 2008 at 7:05 am

I’m sure that only a handfull will read this post because most ppl will probably give up reading the same 2-3 views over and over again like me half way through.

But here it goes:
I’ve played this game not since day one since well as a veteran diablo player i was afraid i’d get as addicted as i eventually got to wow so i held off until a friend got me playing, and so started the grind of no return :)
From the start it’s been a blast from Deathknell to wintersprings leveling from the pre raid instances to MC from MC to naxx(tho i never finished this one) and then Tbc came and it was Wow all over again exploring new instances u untill raid time and while i had time it was a blast moving through kara and up into TK.
And through it all i didn’t care one way or other what other ppl were doing and what gear they were getting it was all about me and my guild our progress.
When they removed the trial af naaru it just meant more influx of members could be recruited to fix empty spots that made for raidless nights same for when gruul no longer needed to be downed to go to SSC less new ppl to take through content we no longer had time for or cared for and tbh if our guild/I were still raiding this new pre quest removal would simply mean the same thing more ppl to recruit for empty spots which pop up every now and then cause well ppl quit join other guilds go to pvp for a pve break just wow life.
And tbh the badge gear is nice for me now since i can only play every 2 months for about 3 weeks cause at my work i have no inet so i can get some fun gear on my main and alts but at a price aswell 100 badges isn’t something that you just get in a night or 2 :) but it prolly is a bit too good but nothing for raiders to cry about so much.

For hardcore raiders like i used to call myself it should be about the challange not about the loot the loot is just a tool to go of to greater things and even if it is about the loot then you look a damn much cooler in a Tier set then some assorted badge gear anyways.

So even if more ppl are getting into the high end raid content they will need skill to see ad down the last bosses anyway so stop crying so much and move on to the next new thing sunwell and after that you will prolly post some cry posts about your epics being replaced with blue gear in wotlk but life goes on and the ppl that want to play will play other can just skip the whining make their Youtube cry i’m deleting my char vid and go off to yet another grind in yet another mmo or something else.

Blizz keep up the good work opening up the content.

My 2 cents so to say.



On March 18, 2008 at 7:06 am

They should launch 2 kinds of realms: Normal and Casual – On the normal realms everything is like it should: attunements, high difficulty, etc. and on the casual realms every encounter is simple tank and spank and gear is buyable at friendly looking npcs.
Everything would be ok imo. Ppl playing one evening in the whole week who normally flame Blizz. for making the game unfair can buy their gear from NPCs and ppl who are looking for a challenge can play on normal realms


On March 18, 2008 at 7:11 am

clearly communistic idea to make all ppl be on the same level no matter the effort … gg blizz.

rly dont care about the attunements removal, but the MH/BT like gear for badges is bad idea.

im raiding 4 times per week, 3hours per raid + 2-3hours per weekend to grind some money and pvp/daily hero to be able to buy consumables. I dont think thats something extreme which can be taken as elite/hardcore playing and Im raiding MH/BT (2 bosses left in BT).

Its more about skills and experience, also the guild. I dont see why should unskilled ppl get the same level gear by just mindlessly cleaning Slave Pens heroic.


On March 18, 2008 at 7:18 am

I might have been unnecessarily inflammatory, but it’s not like the hardcore raider guys are paragons of restraint here (but I get it, you’re 13, you’re angry, mom sometimes makes you go to bed before you can get to Illidan). I stand by my point; if you think that the majority of World of Warcraft players deserve the short end of the stick because they don’t sacrifice family, health, and (apparently) sanity and emotional well-being in order to raid, then maybe World of Warcraft isn’t for you. FFXI has a much more brutal curve; try doing anything of note and, say, eating/sleeping regularly. Pick up a primer on basic Jspeak and start grinding out a couple 75 jobs, I’ll see you in a year.

Hardcore content-pushing raiders are rewarded not with exclusive content, but with inaugural participation in new content. Raid bosses don’t exist on hardcore mode; when you kill Vashj, she will just respawn next week, and eventually *gasp* another guild will kill her. They just won’t be the first.

It’ll always be harder to push the content, and the reward is getting to it and completing it first. By eliminating attuning and granting some degree of access to equipment that will help get you in the door of these instances, Blizzard is letting the less-hardcore guilds experience the content after the hardcore guilds have already cleared it. The guys who are farming Illidan will still burn through Sunwell Plateau ahead of the folks who badge-gear up and jump in, and they’ll still get the cred and the server first for their efforts.

On top of all this, it’s not like they’re handing out the new badge gear to everyone the moment they hit 70. To get fully and completely badge-geared, without any sort of participation in content beyond Karazhan and Heroics, you are looking at something like 750 badges per character. That is 150 heroic dailies, or /half a year/ of heroics. If you do the heroic daily every and clear Karazhan every weekend, you’re still looking at over three months of grinding.

Do you know what that same three to six months will get you, if you’re farming BT/Hyjal and pushing Sunwell?


On March 18, 2008 at 7:24 am

Also a quick note, nothing important for most people.

As you can see from aaaaaaaaall the posts and discussions about this subject, not to mention ingame behaviour; all that seems to matter these days is gear. “Epix w000t! Gief!”.

The true reason this game was made has long been forgotten: having fun playing the game with friends.

Due to all major gear-changes it is no longer possible to play like this: quests are long completed and the only thing that’s left is competing over gear to have something to do.

It’d be a good idea for blizz to put in some new questchains every once in a while.

I believe this factor should be mentioned in topics like this. Balancing a game is one thing, arguing about changes is another. But never forget WHY you PLAY the game.


On March 18, 2008 at 7:34 am

Well written mate, well written


On March 18, 2008 at 7:35 am

They should have put an attunement on sunwell. Then the hardcore have a place to go, whilst the casuals play catchup in BT.

Noone complained much about ssc attun removal, because they had BT/MH to raid. The reason there is such uproar, is becuase the causals can go to sunwell and get insane trash drops too.

Overall i think its blizzards fault for putting so much effort into sunwell that they feel every casual has to see it. The hardcore would be happy with just some hardcore bosses. They dont care about the new dailies/rep/badge rewards.

Some of these hardcore have been waiting for new content for 10 months, and when its released, its pure disappointment.


On March 18, 2008 at 7:46 am

If someone is casual enough to be running 5 mans to get badges for gear they wont ever be doing BT/Hyjal. No matter how much gear they get they WONT be doing BT/Hyjal so why cater for something thats not going to happen and piss off lots off an amount of your player base.

If you cant beat Kael you wont be beating Gorefiend so good luck to geting anywhere at all in BT. Theres a reason casuals dont get to experiance things and thats because they are CASUALS.

If Blizzard want to make stuff available for casuals then they need to have a normal and a heroic version of the endgame instances because to give a casual player something that took the hardcore player months to get in a few weeks is really very very stupid.


On March 18, 2008 at 8:06 am

Fantastic article i couldn’t agree more with, I for one am in a very high end raiding guild that has been farming the current raid content for last 5-6 months and I’m disheartened by the way the majority of the raiding community and LOADS of fan boys are treating people that arnt in the highest level on content.

The constant putting down of people because their noobs and shouldn’t be aloud to see the content and the ing and whining at blizzard for removing attunments is obserd. Honestly are people that self centered and selfish that they need this to hold over peoples heads its really bloody disturbing.

Personally i think its fantastic from my guilds point of view with getting new recruits without having to attune them to an instance and filling in any gear wholes they or guild mates may have, Slower progressed guilds have a chance to try their hand at something new. Also this is great for gearing up alts and people who may not be able to raid at that level but would like decent gear to make farming easyier and even leveling in the coming expansion easyier.

I do have one thing id like to see from blizzard though and that’s make some of the instances and raid instances feel more “epic”, Like doing the tower top event in ZF for the first time it was challenging and so fun, That was a lot of fun. World events are loads of fun too.


On March 18, 2008 at 8:07 am

Lets nerf the whole game to give casuals a couple of hours in Black Temple. They’ll walk in, get owned and walk out.

In the meantime, watch your 25 man raiders scream for karazhan runs to get badges for kit that is better than they have now.

In fact, this patch just increases Kara grinding, full stop. A casual player will never run enough heroics to get 150 badges. If they are, they aint casual.


On March 18, 2008 at 8:07 am

lol this is ing hillarious.

It is and will always be a GAME! If you want respect, go get a job.


On March 18, 2008 at 8:19 am

HAHA simply EVERYONE who can get enough badges for gear are not Casuals BUT SCRUBS. why? Casuals don’t have time to even do that. simply take it everyone who will buy Badge gear at 2.4 are SCRUBS.


On March 18, 2008 at 8:33 am

Warlock tears are delicious, I’ve never seen such a river of tears. They are what I really needed to kill Illidan, not badge gear.

I will always remember the short lived Lifetap nerf.

Pimp it up!

On March 18, 2008 at 8:33 am

Buy wow make a char have it insta on lvl 70 get a menu to pick any gear u want from a drop down menu and the same for enchants and gems. :twisted:

j/k :wink: Its nice to have new ppl getting into bt and mh will make it easier to replace slackers and ppl that still dont grasp how to avoid fires at archi.


On March 18, 2008 at 8:38 am

Well, Ron I must say you are one of the biggest retards/noob I have ever seen in my entire life making such a garbage topic and trying to make the biggest blow on pve raiding guilds look like a good thing!

months and months of raiding and wiping to get attuned and beat encounters magicaly wiped away so that complete noobs can go and wipe on naj’entus and buy better gear with kara badges… its almost funny

CASUALS! if you cant beat ing ssc or tk after ONE YEAR of world of warcraft you shouldnt be playing at all and you dont diserve to see !

the guys that keep this game alive are the hardcore pve’rs and they are the ones that keep getting thrown at face! Gah


On March 18, 2008 at 8:43 am

The best part about all this is that it doesnt affect PVP one bit. PVE gear will still blow ass for arena.
So, in summation, enjoy grinding your eyes out in instances and wasting your life, when the XPAC hits it will all be in vain.


On March 18, 2008 at 8:46 am

Why do “casual” players complain about raiders who raid for loot, and yet defend t6 quality badge loot, which is totally unnecessary to defeat t5 instances? I thought they played for fun (which is what they always say), not loot?


On March 18, 2008 at 8:46 am

Grim please don’t annoy Casuals. I am real casual and only can play 2 hours per week. real casual ppl can’t even do karazhan. if person have time to raid daily he is NOT casual. he is Scrub. and do not call them as casuals because that is annoying real casuals which are playing this game for fun not for gear.


On March 18, 2008 at 9:04 am

Badwabbit says:
March 6th, 2008 at 1:48 pm

“It’s sort of like going to school for 10 years to become a Brain Surgeon because that was how you HAD to do it and then once you graduate the system is changed to where you can get it in 4. Do you get the point now?”

I just have to point out using your own analogy that the only difference here is that if you knew before you started your 10 year Brain Surgery school that in a few years it would only take you 4 years and you CHOSE to go ahead anyway because you really wanted to be a brain Surgeon.

Thats what is happeneing here, don’t tell me after Pre-BC, TK/SSC you weren’t expecting this to happen? It’s going to happen agin and again, if you choose to spend your time trying to be one of the best thats your choice. Other people are happy to wait. Just because they make the current content easier they will always have content thats only beatable by the best “at that time”, when they make even harder content they make the previous content accessible to the masses and the hardcore go and pave the way again through the new content.

Thats how it has been, how it is and how it will be.

One last time, it’s your CHOICE.


On March 18, 2008 at 9:04 am

I think the author failed to point out the largest reason Blizzard is doing this change and thing the ones whining about it happening need to step back and think.

The only reason this is happening is simply:

Blizzard puts things in place on purpose to slow down the progression of players so we don’t get through the content and quit. With the next expansion not for far off in the future they are removing these blocks out of the way to make the masses feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

The choke holds will return in next expansion on the new content, so for all you who have an epeen that needs attention, you will have your chance once again.


On March 18, 2008 at 9:14 am

big big fail, i dont wanna get t6 gear and go sunwell after 2weeks at 70lvl, its my last gamecard – WoW for 12years old kids who use only 2 skills – yes, u made changes for them – for money , wow dies


On March 18, 2008 at 9:14 am

Tho this post will get lost in the mix of it all. Its not elitist its frustration. What happens if the guilds that get into BT/MH can’t clear the trash? Or kill the first boss? Blizzards will “refine” them and make the lay out easier. This is a smack into the face to those that have done it already at its current level. Who would want to pay 20 bucks for something then have the next person in line right behind them get it for 5 because thats all they had on them.

If you want the content play at the level needed to achieve it. If people can’t achieve it set the goals lower next time around. But if they can why change it? Its not like clearing SSC/TK are impossible guilds have be doing it for how long nows. So why change it?


On March 18, 2008 at 9:18 am

First off, people who use the term elitist need to be beaten with a large plank of wood. With nails in it. I am so sick of hearing that crap.

Attunements should never have been in the game to begin with; the only criterion for whether you should be in an instance should be whether or not you can handle the content. If you can’t then that content is not for you. Period.

If Blizzard wants to cater to the casuals (as well they should) they should give them different ways to progress, ways that don’t require a hardcore raiding schedule but are still fun and challenging. What they should not do is cheapen the accomplishments of the most devoted players by just giving stuff away for no extra effort.

WoW is in very real danger of slipping into Bad Game territory because of it. Think back to the month or so just before the release of TBC, also known as the Great Guild Genocide. No one was motivated to do anything, because they knew that in a few weeks, they’d be able to get much better gear for much less effort. Blizzard’s habit of constantly adding better gear without adding new challenges (arena seasons, badge loot) is causing the same effect, except now it’s every patch rather than once per expansion. How long before people start realizing they’re not doing anything other than spinning their wheels waiting for the next batch of just-below-top-notch gear to be handed to them and start leaving?


On March 18, 2008 at 9:18 am

I spend my days working hard and trying to earn a living, maybe take a trip or buy a brand new car. One day I have gatherd enough money, and when i finally can enjoy my trip or drive around with my new ferrari. The goverment enforces a new law that let you exchange 10 empty cans for a brand new ferrari or 5 cans for a around the world trip. I feel kinda stupid for the time i put in working… but hey, it’s good news, now everyone can drive around in ferraris and travel around the world. Yay Blizzard!


On March 18, 2008 at 9:19 am

trying to fix a system that wasnt broke is dumb, i enjoy the game less since burning crusade has came out, the game has dumbed down,they broke it with arenas, this article is wrong in every sense of the word. wtb elitest.


On March 18, 2008 at 9:23 am

Opening up Black Temple and Hyjal and dropping the attunements is fine, and I agree should in no way devalue the efforts of the guilds that are either working on or farming both instances. There are numerous signs that will indicate their accomplishments (gear that can’t be bought with Badges, the Hand of A’dal title once 2.4 hits, Band of Eternity, Medallion of Karabor, etc), and so I don’t think that cutting attunements and letting trash guilds wipe on Naj’entus ultimately impacts what the bleeding edge players have achieved.

Where my grievance lies is in the extremely overpowered Badge rewards. Because they are so ing good, they have to have a respective Badge reward cost that reflects that power. Fine, all well and good. But all that these rewards do is encourage casual guilds to not try out the T6 content that Blizzard so badly wants them to see (why bother when you can get better gear from Heroics?), and almost relegates those guilds to just grinding out Badges in the low-end easy content, earning better rewards without the thrill of seeing new content.

Perhaps what I’m about to say sounds snobbish, ish, elitist, or what have you. I can handle that. Most trash and casual guilds that either cannot down Vashj and Kael (trash guilds), or just haven’t progressed at a fast enough clip to take them to both end bosses (casual guilds), aren’t going to make a dent in T6 content. Even Rage Winterchill will require wipe nights for a lot of guilds that aren’t able to/don’t care enough to kill/attempt Vashj/Kael. (OMG /’s.) Rage, while being retardedly easy for any guild with the skill to kill (dig my rhyme scheme) Kael, will prove difficult for guilds that lack that experience and coordination. Naj’entus is even worse. I’m sure that eventually, a trash/casual guild that tries enough will drop Rage, and maybe even Naj’entus (and probably Supremus after), but not without spending an inordinate amount of time learning the encounters.

What happens next is anyone’s guess. Probably Blizzard will be inundated with cries of “nerf” for the early zone bosses, and subsequently later zone bosses like the Reliquary and Bloodboil and Azgalor and Archimonde, and if those calls are heeded, THEN you are spitting in the face of raiders. The content isn’t meant to be beaten by everyone. That’s why casual content like Kara and Heroics exists, with the rewards to go along with them.

If the “nerf” cries aren’t heeded (Let me make an aside here: if you’re so proud of your content that you want to show it off to everyone, you should also have the pride to stand up and say, “This content is where it should be, as hard as we intended it to be, and it isn’t going to get easier, sorry.”), then the casual and trash guilds that just can’t hack it in T6 content will inevitably go back to farming the SAME Heroics, the SAME 10-mans, and the SAME easy-mode 25-man content (like Gruul and Mags) for Badges, and end up buying gear and not feeling the thrill of getting a drop off of the corpse of a tough new boss. That sucks.

Maybe I shouldn’t preach doom and gloom, because maybe all this won’t come to pass and everyone will end up happy. But I think it should be taken into consideration that the way that casuals are being catered to might actually end up turning a few of them away from the game. It all depends on how hard Naj’entus and Rage and such actually are, and a guild that can drop a boss as tough as Kael or Vashj really has no perspective from which to judge the difficulty of early T6 effectively.

In short, we’ll see.


On March 18, 2008 at 9:24 am

Being 5/6 SSC and 3/4 TK over a year after the xpack release most certainly DOES make you casual. It does NOT make you ‘semi-serious’… :roll: The comment about it not affecting YOUR accomplishments as opposed to the hardcore raiders definitely apply here, in my opinion. You don’t care and don’t see other people’s perspectives because they don’t devalue YOUR accomplishments.

On the other hand, there is no way scrubs in t5 who can’t even get organized well enough to down Vashj and Kael (lol) will be able to even down Kalecgos in Sunwell. IDC if there is an attunement or not; you will just not have the time or skill to do it unless they nerf it a bunch of times before you finally mouth breath and window lick your way through it.

So I suppose it’s a tradeoff. You will not be seeing Kil’jaeden for months, if ever.


On March 18, 2008 at 9:27 am

Oh, and that’s Vashj/Kael post-several-nerfs that you can’t down as well. They are nothing like their original form.


On March 18, 2008 at 9:30 am


Hilarious that my rant made it off the wow forums…


Casuals will NEVER see anything beyond Najentus or Rage. Simple as that..

They havent been thru the fights that make a good raiding guild. There will be no coordination no execution and no knowledge of their class.

BT is very unfogiving to badness and so is MH. Until they nerf em again casuals have 0 chance to get even close to see content. Badge gear or lifted attunements wont change the fact that thoose bosses/trash require skill.

And for all of you Captain Karazhans out there: You can hate serious raiders but it wont change the fact that you wont see content we did. You wont get even close to Illidan and you wont get close to Archimonde. Sorry!!! GL wiping on trash and then giving up.


On March 18, 2008 at 9:34 am

What’s up with this article? *OF COURSE* Blizzard is dumbing down World of Warcraft. The point of the article is to justify this dumbing down, not to deny it.

Not that I disagree with that justification. As the game ages and new content is introduced, existing content will naturally be trivialized. Hardcore players will move to whatever represents the new “high end” while everyone else moves up a notch.

But the title sells a false premise.


On March 18, 2008 at 9:36 am

I Agree with Arrith on the point of guild applicants and opening up our doors to play with gamers which we normally wouldn’t have interacted. I personally am a healing class player, and am by nature of the class there to support other players in the community.

My guild was the first Horde guild on our server to down Ill. Great accomplishment for the faction and for those involved. It has only been about 3 months since we first downed him, and in that time have had a slew of applicants posting on our forums about wanting to see content.

Here’s the tough balance that we are facing in our guild politics. We are looking for raid members who can seamlessly enter into our raid groups and perform substantially at their position. If we knew nothing about a player besides an application post on our forums, one way that we had to determine that such player was worth inviting into 1 of our raid spots was to evaluate their gear attainments and selections. Not only would this provide insight into knowledge of their class mechanics, but also fight experience and the ability to ‘play well with others’.

WoW, just like any other game or sport, is competitive to a certain extent. There are those in this community that would strive to be the best, and want to put together a team of the best to get the furthest, fastest. Putting high lvl items at the availability of less experienced players shouldn’t be the determining factor in breaking up a guild. What it will do, is cause guilds like mine to take longer amounts of time determining if players do have the skill, personality, and knowledge to get along with our other members. And from my experience, hardcore raiders don’t mind spending time in WoW.

As an example, we have a resto druid and resto shaman in our guild who started playing post TBC. Never experienced MC, BWL, Ony, Naxx, etc. They’ve come into this game and proven themselves through their efforts, and top healing meters consistently in our BT encounters. They obviously didn’t start the 60+ 5 mans with the experience of our Naxx raiders, but they had talent.

Elitists need to spend more time evaluating the important aspects of a player’s gameplay, where true skill comes from, instead of bashing them for mistakes made because of lack of experience. I’m glad that certain groups of elitists have found friends in the game they like to play with, and have continued to for the past 3 years. Thats important to building any community, but i feel that they should focus on enjoying the play time with friends, instead of worrying about what players you wouldnt even send a raid inv. to are doing with their time.

Now concerning those other posters who consider hardcore raiders like myself to get a ‘real’ hobby, or go out and experience something else, I say thankyou. I want you to know that even hardcore raiders are still open to doing other things with their life, but they have chosen this as their hobby of interest. In each hobby or sport, there will be elitists and pros who have more experience than you, and sometimes you may have to ‘apply’ to be part of a club concerning your hobby, or maybe even ‘tryout’ for the best team in the league before joining, which may have meant having history playing a few games to show you have experience in that sport. Don’t knock our habits because most likely, they are vastly similar to your own.

To reiterate, 2.4 changes are not destroying WoW in any manner. They are just causing guilds/social organizations/hardcore raiders to reevaluate and adapt their infrastructure so they can continue to function positively. If a guild is having issues with this, they are not versatile enough to adapt to future changes and will ultimately fail. To be blunt, if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.


On March 18, 2008 at 9:53 am

Of course they are dumbing it down. Blizzard, as they should, only cares about the number of dollars being deposited into their bank account each month.

Every time there is a discussion like this, you get these idiots that say the hardcore raiders need to get a life or whatever, and it gets old. What makes you so much better than someone who plays WoW 18 hours a day and lives in their mothers basement? Is it because you go to the bar and have wild sex with many different women? Good for you, when you are a raging alcoholic beating up hookers and facing death due to multiple STDs, the WoW nerd will be sitting comfortably in his chair popping zits and making his mom bring a bed-pan down so he can keep raiding. Congrats, you win.

WoW is like EQ for 12 year olds. Only difference is EQ catered to its hardcore raiders, and the game has been running for 9 years with plenty of people to keep it going. When there are no “achievements” to be had in the game, there will be less people playing. All the casual players like to scream and shout that they should get to see just as much as a person who raids 3-4 hours a night 4 nights a week or more. What makes you think you deserve just as much out of a game because you feel that you have better things to do? Do you think an NFL quarterback would be ok with a kicker making the same amount of money? Of course not, they don’t put the same amount of effort in, why should they both get the same reward? Same thing applies here. I only play a few hours a week now, and I don’t think there’s any way in hell I deserve the same loot or experiences as someone who puts in much more time. Yes it is only a game, but if people play more they should get more out of it. Patch 2.4 and well, the rest of TBC, is one big cheat code for WoW.


On March 18, 2008 at 9:53 am

My last guild had just downed Vashj and ended up disbanding right after. We only did 3 attempts on Kael ever. I would say I’m all for removing the requirements to get into Hyjal, because getting into another guild without your vials is pretty much impossible at this point, but to me I feel cheated. Even with the attunement removed, I would rather stay in TK and kill Kael before moving on. That is the order of things and bypassing what, at least from the first 3 phases, seemed like one of the most unique encounters in BC would take away from the game for me.


On March 18, 2008 at 9:55 am

Players shouldn’t argue amongst themselves. Thats that. :wink:


On March 18, 2008 at 9:58 am

Blizzard ain’t catering to casuals at all in 2.4. What do they get ? Some new daily quests and a new 5 man instance (a difficult one at casual play level) that’s all.

On the other hand scrubs aren’t getting much either. And by scrubs i mean the people who have the time and will to play the game but miserably fail. The most common reasons of failures are:
– Lack of skill. They just suck badly at their class and fail to execute strategies.
– Inability to interact in a social environment. Maybe they are OK at playing, but they are such drama queens or w/e that noone wants to play/chat with them.

Those players who afk in bg for wellfare, pug Kara every week and take hours to clear the daily heroic wont be seeing a lot of “wellfare” t6 badge loot considering the quantity of badges required.

The amateur raider (still in T5 or starting T6) gains a bit more, they can focus on MH/BT without having to rerun SSC/TK to attune new comers. Their adventures will be eased by new badge rewards, as they will slightly outgear the instance. (A full T6 raid largely outgears BT encounters). Those guilds won’t be storming into Sunwell, they will, as they always do, wait for kill videos and strats to be widely available.

Finally, the hardcore raiders get it all. A new raid dungeon, a new ‘tier’ of gear progression. The opportunity to have their alts gear up straight in MH/BT once they hit 70 (hi 3 tokens per boss + arena gear from them). All of their toons will be fully gemmed with crimson spinels, and they’ll make more money than you can imagine on Auction House.

2.4 gives you the illusion to catering to casuals, but it sure ain’t, it’s just an illusion to make them keep playing or dreaming about this 150 badges weapon that seems within their reach. Hardcore raiders will get the most out of it hands down.

And if you think 2.4 will see more people enjoying high end content, you are just about as retarded as the OP who quotes a troll named ahsqkssgffsdhf and makes an article about it. Casuals might zone in BT, but they sure won’t enjoy it.


On March 18, 2008 at 9:58 am

Below is a post I made on my guild forums regarding this article and 2.4. We are about to start our second week of Kael attempts, and will probably have him dead next week or the following.

If 2.4 drops today, I’m going to be very upset. It has nothing to do with elitist feelings, and I couldn’t care less whether or not blizzard gives away more free epics. I do think that blizzard is dumbing down the game, and it is getting progressively easier for bad players to get good gear, but that is not the major problem I have with the patch.

The issue with 2.4 that I have is not that it makes the game easier for others, but that it makes the game easier for us. We’re close to getting Kael’Thas down, and it just wouldn’t be the same if we killed him after Blizz lifted the attunement. Kael’Thas and Vashj are both very hard bosses, but they are also huge stepping stones because they are required for MH and BT. Finishing Vials of Eternity would not have the same thrill and success associated with it if all it gave me was another stupid title. I can see why the TK, SSC, and Kara attunements were removed, and I’m ok with that because completing the timed SH event, for example, is not really a gage of guild progress, but part of what I love about raiding is its linear nature. If I want choices I will run 5-mans. Raiding is particularly interesting because one comes up to new challenges that one has to learn about, adapt to, and overcome. If you can just give up on a boss and keep going, then it becomes no more interesting than killing Felboards in SMV.


On March 18, 2008 at 10:06 am

This isn’t just about “hardcore elitists” feeling their accomplishments diminished but all guilds. Being in a guild thats been in BT for roughly a month now, I feel very disappointed at how good the badge gear is, currently my guild and I feel the pressure to clear Black Temple as fast as we can before this so called “casual” gear is released, is that fair to us? We’re not elite by any means, we’ve been around for a good year, raiding at our own enjoyable pace, yet Blizzard feels the need to release gear similar to the gear it’s taken us a year to obtain?

It must be even worse for the 6/6 SSC, 3/4 TK guilds out there, to know that all the gear being released is going to mostly be upgrades in almost every single slot, to know that everything they worked for is, literally, for nothing. Their gear will be replaced by badges obtainable in Karazhan, and the biggest reason for killing Kael will be removed. How are they suppose to feel?

Let me first state, I have no problems with the removal of attunements, Naxx never had one, and it makes recruits easier to come by. Yeah, some guilds would kill a few bosses before Kael. Thats not a bad thing really, they earned it by, and let me stress this, actually progressing. Killing Patchwerk before C’thun never diminished the accomplishments for my guild pre-bc, it gave us another path of progression until we could eventually go back and kill C’thun.

There is no need for Badge gear *this* good. Casual players don’t need T6 to clear ZA, even with attunements removed, and upgraded gear, players that haven’t kill Vashj will be lucky to kill anything besides Winterchill, players who are stuck on Kael may have slightly better outings, but not by much.

Many people will argue that badge gear allows new players to get geared up fast, so they could be recruited into a MH/BT guild. This point really doesn’t hold up well for one reason – if the applicant is exceptional enough to actually warrant a second look, then the guild will gear him up the old fashion way, by actually killing bosses for him/her. I know personally I won’t be accepting any random player out of Karazhan just because they have awesome gear next patch.

So in short:

Lifting Attunements = Good
Badge Gear = Bad

Badge Gear doesn’t teach a player how to kill Ghosts on Gorefiend, or stay alive on Archimonde.


On March 18, 2008 at 10:44 am

All the ‘reasons’ that the stupid hardcore gamers are giving are in fact what makes The Burning Crusade a much more better game than original WoW… I also experienced the old end-game content with a hardcore guild, the only day we didn’t raid was sunday and we had everything in farm status but I quit at the middle of AQ because it was too much, and dumb teens who doesn’t have social life, a girlfriend/wife or a job are the ones that cry about the expansion…

WoW it’s MUCH better now, I’m happy to see the changes Blizzard made for this patch and I really laugh hard at hardcore 12-yo kids, slackers and parasite’s that doesn’t work to pay their own stuff (including WoW).



On March 18, 2008 at 10:47 am

Quote: The choke holds will return in next expansion on the new content, so for all you who have an epeen that needs attention, you will have your chance once again.

ROFL All I have seen this entire thread is ” I put in X amount of effort and they are going to undermine that by putting in X gear and taking away x attunement” If you are so pissed…. LEAVE. Being able to get the gear doesn’t mean you can down the bosses. Badge gear that was t5 equivalent came out, did you see a massive amount of guilds start downing Vash/Kael? NO

Being able to get the bosses down is about skill, timing, coordination, and most of all…. THE LOGISTICS OF BEING ABLE TO GET 25 TALENTED FOLKS ON AT THE SAME TIME!!! So if you need you bruised little egos stroked because you had to do an attunement… here it is. yay for you!

A lot of us that also had to go through the attunement process are glad they are pulling it. When folks leave do to RL issues, we will now have a larger player base to pull from. Folks that are talented, geared, and dedicated… Just haven’t been there for right kill to be attuned.

So the long and short is this….. They were a kara guild before, they will still be a kara guild, and your epeen is intact.


On March 18, 2008 at 10:55 am

To start with, I quit WoW approximately amonth ago now. Prior to this, I raided Black Temple and Mount Hyjal, in a guild I would consider hardcore.
The main reason I left the game I have been playing for over 2 years now, and which I really enjoyed for a long time, is the lack of challenge it has been offering since the release of TBC.
Pre-TBC, I only started raiding very late, in a rather casual guild. We managed to clear MC. I know this is not much of an achievement, but I liked raiding, so decided to continue it in TBC.
Now in TBC, I discovered that most, if not all raid content is incredibly easy. Even the harder bosses (excluding Kael’thas, he’s the only boss who requires very good raid coördination in TBC) required no more than 2 or 3 days to learn, as opposed to some Pre-TBC encounters which would take even a couple of weeks to master.
Yet it is still fun to raid, because you know you achieve something more than some other players. Yes, you may call this Elitist behaviour, and it probably is, but I think it is only human to be proud of you achievements. It is not as if I look down upon so called “Casuals”, everyone plays this game for his own reasons, and is completely free to fill their time whatever way they want to.
But what I do not like to see, is that people who have no clue at all what they’re doing, running around in incredible gear (Season 3 Arena sets for example, are perfectly accessible by even the largest morons). I just find that people who decide not to play this game in a very serious way (as in hardcore raiding or serious PvP) should be rewarded with the same items as people who do put a lot of effort in it. Epics have become trivial in TBC, and I think the majority of players would agree this was better Pre-TBC, when someone with even half T1 was someone to look up to.
I think gear should be the major factor to distinguish a good player from a bad, someone who invests a lot of time in it from someone who jus logs in to play his 10 arena battles a week.
You may have noticed that I have mentioned the Arena items twice now. May it be clear that I find nothing wrong with good PvP’ers dressed in full Vengeful. I just think it is too accessible for the bad players too (however, the personal rating requirements are a step in the good direction, now they just need to add them to all items).
Also making Tier-6 quality items purchasable for a currency dropped in Heroics and the easiest raid instance in the game, makes it rather obsolete. They could just as well adjust the bosses so that they all require the same gear level, that would make just as much sense. Only would it take away the competition amongst guilds, which is exactly what this patch does in my humble opinion.
Maybe I will come back to the game when Wrath of the Lich King is released, but if they keep downgrading bosses, items, and probably anything else they develop like they did in the last patches, I do not think I will find the same pleasure in the game as I did back before the expansion.


On March 18, 2008 at 10:57 am

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: I disagree. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Its simple,They should be allowed into those instances,The problem is they don’t deserve the same reward.

It’s like in a race,You don’t give second and third place a gold medal do you?

What happening here is blizzard is giving gold medals to all its players.

Do you really think its fair to get the same reward for half the work?

Remember its a game and theirs going to be competition,and theirs no competition is their no way to tell whose is the winner.


On March 18, 2008 at 11:08 am

This isn’t even a hard game. You can solo all the way to 70 (this was true even before 2.3) and when you get there the fight strategies NEVER CHANGE. This week’s Reliquary of Souls is the same as last week’s. It’s the experience of seeing content that’s new to you and overcoming it alongside your friends that makes this huge time sink worthwhile.

This is a game of personal fulfillment, not public recognition, and since you’re paying $15 a month you would do well to understand that. Go play chess if you want recognition. WoW, like most fantasty games, is about making normal people feel like heroes, whether they’re high school kids or middle aged autoworkers.


On March 18, 2008 at 11:10 am

It’s not about casuals and hardcores, it’s about what you want from the game; a challenge or a stroll down Easy Street.

Making existing content easier is the wrong way to cater to the latter category because it pisses off the former. What they should have done is add different content, tuned to a different difficulty.

Sadly, Blizzard too has chosen to take the easy way out.


On March 18, 2008 at 11:10 am

the funniest thing is all you nerds playing wow, be it PvErs who whine over those changes and mock PvPers or PvPers who think they are UBBAHSKILLZ0RZ! and everything and mock PvErs, you all fail to see that this game is suited for any1, even an retard can play it with success. PvP requires skill? PvE requires skill? It all ends up with predefined imba arena teams and bashing same buttons over and over(PvP) or just bashing same buttons over and over(PvE). It also makes me laugh when they say WoW is an MMORPG(especially nowdays). Maybe it is massive multiplayer only but i can’t see in which way it’s RPG. Its a good platform(adventure) multiplayer game. Adding that storyline going on in this game lately which is totally pulled out of the ass sucks so much and is put there just to pretend any storyline and give reason to release new ty instance/zone/whatever to keep bunch of kids playing it. Last thing, WoW is easy thing, it was suposed to since it was created, it has the most immature player base of all MMO’s(gues why, its so easy that even retards can play it!). Over 10 mil players? So what, servers and world are so fking small that i felt like playing with 100 ppl on server at best, especially when yo cant interact with other faction in other way than killing them and when yours own faction is about how many? 800 per server average on one side.


On March 18, 2008 at 11:12 am

Hi all,

I partly agree….

What I do feel is lost is the effort Blizzard is putting in the story line.

I know most teenagers just want to DPS, tank and spank, last thing on there mind is reading the quests and experiencing the story line. But they miss out on something really nice in my opinion.

From my personal point of view it does not feel rewarding that Badges rewards will overpower my T5/SSC/TK loot, but we all look forward to the new challenge ahead, and the changes in the game allow our guild to move towards the Sunwell Plateau raids smoother.

Let’s see them “hardcore” guilds on our server challenge each other to clear the new raid as first guild on the realm. What guild will be first? I wonder….

All with all, just nice new content for end game and hard core teams, and more content available for us, the more informal guilds…..

About the family guilds and solo-players (PvP) they won’t care anyway I guess.

What I do worry about more is the level gab that came with TBC and now again with WotLK… Prefer (and I am willing to buy an extension for it) to expand more like they do on 2.4 and keep the max level on 60/70 but releasing more content and higher level instances for the hard core players.

It will be a waist once the first blue world drop or quest reward overpowers your epics.

Don’t forget, the reward should be your at end-game, not what the name of the instance is or what gear you where, at the end most high-end bosses are more about techniques and team effort then about gear in the first place. I wonder whether badge geared players can one shot Lady Vashj in 2.4 for example… They will miss the experience and discipline needed.

Just my idears to share with you.

The silly Holy Dwarf.


On March 18, 2008 at 11:14 am

There is a ton of flaws in this article.

First the Title : Dont Worry, Blizzard isnt dumbing down wow.
If there is a guild out there that killed Archimonde pre-first nerf (Nihilum)
Every single nerf on Archimonde afterwards that Blizzard make is making the game easier and easier, aka dumbing down the game. There is no arguements whatsoever that Blizzard is dumbing down the game. Even for guilds that have cleared the content for a month, the Illidan they faced was still Illidan version 3 or 4, which was nothing like Illidan version 1 that was killed by only 1 guild in the world.

Second: Definition of Casual.
If you made it into SSC/TK at 5/6, 3/4, there is no way you are a casual player, casual player to Blizzard are those who dont raid and just farm kara and heroics for badges and wait for new badge gear to come out.

Third: Why people cant see end-game content
Do you seriously think those who cant get in hyjal/BT is because they lack gear?
NO. the OP stated he only raids 3 days a week. you know what? I do too, cept im 11 bosses ahead of you. Gear is not why you cant get into hyjal, the real reason behind it is because:

Personal effort-wise:
1) you dont know how to stand out of flamstrike
2) you dont know how to run away from thaladred
3) you dont know how to stand next to a person with a staff buff
4) you dont know how to move out of sporebat poison
5) you dont know how to kite striders
6) you dont know how to dps
7) you dont know how to hold aggro

Group effort-wise:
1) casual players dont know how to group up to form a guild to raid
2) apping to a end game guild to get carried through instead of having to wipe countless times on bosses which in turn improves your own skills

You think by giving casual players endless badge gear they will make it to Illidan? No they wont.

So go on, give casual player more and more gear, while im not oppose to that, I for sure will guarantee that my opinion on people with badge gear will drop lower and lower.
Purples (Epics) no longer mean anything now, I hear on trade chat “(class) with full epics looking for heroic group”, this means absolutely nothing to me now compared to the time when people started to hit level 70. I get in group with this guy, only to find hes in like s1 pvp gear, some random world epics and this guy ends up underneath the tank in dps.

So basically to summarize. Before (pre-BC/early BC), when I see a person in epics, I know hes done something and that I want this guy in my group. Now when I see a person in FULL epics, he can be absolutlely useless.
Please tell me this is not the result of Blizzard dumbing down the game so that people who never bother to understand their class, afk in AV, never raided a 25 man can get gear equivalant to people who worked their butt off day and night to clear hyjal/BT.
I have 1 main and 2 alts, main in hyjal/BT gear, alts in kara and pvp gear, because knowing blizzard will give me such retardedly good gear when 2.4 comes out, I plough my 2 alts every week through kara. As soon as 2,4 comes out, my alts will literally overpower my main in gear.

Which brings me to the last issue: You think farming badges is tough?
I spend 3 days a week 4 hrs a day raiding. I clear kara on both my alts in less than 4 hours, that is less than 1/3 of my raid time.
You think kara is serious business? kara is easier than heroic Slave pens. no boss fights in kara lasts more than 2 minutes now for my group, maiden downed in 57 seconds (BY OUR ALTS), curator at 33% before first evocation (killed during evocation, aran at 25% with 90% mana still left.
If casual players cant do it, its cuz they are dumb, and blizzard’s constant attempt to help these people are beyond understandable.

DONT WORRY BLIZZARD, as much as I disagree with your moves, you have me addicted to this game, and therefore ull have my subscription monthly, all I can do now is treat crappy players like hell.


On March 18, 2008 at 11:15 am

Some of these people really need to learn to retain what they read, or read the full article before posting… My favorite point the author made :

“If you had written a spectacular novel, but your publisher said he could sell it to a few hundred people, would you be happy with that? I highly doubt it.”

WoW isnt nearly as hardcore as some other MMO’s so if you want to be all high and mighty about a video game, do it in another MMO where it actually matters.


On March 18, 2008 at 11:19 am

“Hardcore raiders make up a small percentage of the players in MMO’s like WoW, and they represent the least profitable players for the company running the game.”

This is wrong, the hardcore players pay the same $15 a month that everyone pays. I am a casual player but my guild is about to kill Illidan now and while I’m not in the “hardcore raid group” I have been to SSC/TK and it’s more about teamwork than gear. Hell on Solarian we had a stupid druid in tree form that kept getting wrathed and didn’t pop out and wiped the raid 4 times. My point is, if the players don’t have the discipline required for some instances, all the gear in the world can’t help that.


On March 18, 2008 at 11:23 am

Less QQ more pew pew

Crysees - Greymane

On March 18, 2008 at 11:27 am

Overall I see what Blizzard is doing. Do I like it? Not really. I do understand the fact of allowing people to see content. As a person who has been farming Black Temple for months it is kind of sad to think anyone can just walk in there. Like I said I kind of do understand it.

First going back to you post about Naxx and how people said it was one of the best raids in the game. Why was it? Because it was HARD. I did manage to clear Naxx pre TBC. Did it require work? Yes. But when you had your T3 gear it showed what you have done. They didn’t nerf all the bosses so everyone could do them. Most were a challenge and thats what people liked. Thats why people said Naxx was the best zone in the game because it was HARD, and it made people work for them.

But here is the thing. For the people who have been farming it for months or those who just got attuned in the last week they have done what should be in a MMO. They progressed through content. They did T4 instances, then moved onto the T5 instances. They did not used badge gear to walk into a high level zone.

In reality if you can not even clear SSC / TK even with your badge gear you are not going to stand a chance on most later bosses in BT. Maybe do ok in Hyjal up to Arch.

I do understand they want people to see things. However think about it from another standpoint. If you start at a job today then all of a sudden in 2 weeks they promote you to vice president and skip over 3-4 other jobs you should have had in that company, you will lack experience and knowing what the other stuff is about. But that would never happen so why should this be any different, you should need to progress from bottom to top, not just skip to the top.

The end of the article refered to the CORE being the hardcore player base and most should be done for them. Well when you really think about it I am not saying everything should be. But that is a lot of what keeps games going. I will explain.

The hardcore player base is what attracts people to the game. On websites such as world of raids, mmo-champion, its mostly hardcore people who use them, or the people who cant raid but still enjoy the game. They show videos from new content and up to date items etc. How many times in a city are people of high end guilds getting tells about where something came from, or questions about raids. They do a big part in attracting people to the game. If it wasnt for them new content would not be pushed and others would have nothing to maybe look foward to. Hardcores tend to keep servers economies up as well they contribute a lot to buying and selling of goods. Many items would not be bought by a casual person.

I will use EQ as an example is thrived as a game. Until in a very short period of time the hardcore people left. When they left the game died. Why? Because as much as a company like blizzard would like to give casuals all this gear and be able to do BT and Hyjal the hardcore peoples gear and things they do attract many people because they think it is cool.

One of the only things that have kept many of those hardcore players here is the fact that no new MMO has came out that has been anything from a pve or pvp standpoint.

Risen of Alleria and The Flying Hellfish of Kil’jeaden have both recently stopped playing for most of these reasons. Unless in the WOTLK it somewhat goes back to the way it was at 60 when a new MMO comes out such as Conen or Warhammer, if they end up being good many hardcore people will end up leaving and you will see a fall of WOW just like EQ was. Our guild is top 30 in the world and a lot of us have even said that the only thing keeping us here is that we dont have another game to play.


On March 18, 2008 at 11:29 am

reading this string has been pretty funny….. the hardcores verses the casuals….

Blizzard will always be changing the game to make it more interesting and/or challenging… all game makers do that, or lose the market entire.

Most of the arguing about dumbing down for the casual players, and hardcore players feeling stiffed kind of misses the point of the attitude of the players themselves. There will always be a niche in the game for hardcore and casual players, and in ratio proportionate to general society.

Hardcore players will always be hardcore. They will always strive to be the first to get/complete the top level stuff, and are willing to grind their asses off to do it. Kudos to them for wanting to do so. They will always be pissed if anyone has a chance to get a piece of what they got, unless that person had to work exactly as much. This is just the nature of the hardcore player. These players are important: their grinding rep and farming pushes blizzard to ever seek ways to raise the bar on the game.

Casual players will usually be a step off from hardcores no matter how enticing blizzard makes getting the gear because they just aren’t going to work for it as much. Play the game, and get a couple of cool pieces of gear along the way is wonderful. Play another day with the improved gear too… maybe feel up to checking out an instance one wouldn’t before. Maybe not play for a couple days. This is the nature of the casual player. These players make blizzard pay attention to the playability and interesting content parts of the game.

There will always be more stuff coming for the hardcores to try for…. There will always be a trickle down effect as new better stuff gets put at the top… So just chill- You hardcore folks will still get all the new good stuff first, and we casual folks will admire you for a while and possibly try to get something similar…. or maybe go do the farming to get the tradeskill stuff hardcores are too busy raiding to go get for themselves…..


On March 18, 2008 at 11:30 am

” “Hardcore raiders make up a small percentage of the players in MMO’s like WoW, and they represent the least profitable players for the company running the game.”

This is wrong, the hardcore players pay the same $15 a month that everyone pays. I am a casual player but my guild is about to kill Illidan now and while I’m not in the “hardcore raid group” I have been to SSC/TK and it’s more about teamwork than gear. Hell on Solarian we had a stupid druid in tree form that kept getting wrathed and didn’t pop out and wiped the raid 4 times. My point is, if the players don’t have the discipline required for some instances, all the gear in the world can’t help that.”

Keelon, you speak on many different points in your article, and i’m still trying to understand what you’re trying to say.

PURELY from a business standpoint, Hardcore raiders ARE the least profitable. Think about it like this.

Hardcore = Plays 40 hrs a week, spends $15/month. = blizz makes 9 cents per hr of their play time.

Casual = 8 hrs/week, spends $15/month = blizz makes 37.5 cents per hr of their play time.

Also, take into account that blizz has to use LESS resources to keep a character online for 40 hrs for the month, than it does for 160, decreasing their costs. Hardcore players are by far the least profitable.

And what is your point with wiping on tk instances mean, in regards to profit? i dont understand.

I do agree with you that all the gear in the world can’t help stupid playing, its just that wow hardcore players would like to be distinguished that they completed something, and completed it better/faster, than others playing the game.

Mihale (earthen ring)

On March 18, 2008 at 11:46 am

I’m responding to this because I see both sides of the equation. While I appreciate the fact that I am now downing void-reaver weekly and I didn’t have to finish the attunement, it does upset me somewhat that I was so close to getting attuned anyway and the accomplishment was pulled out from under me.

I consider myself to be a hardcore gamer when the circumstances in RL allow it. What that means is that while I may have as many hours played on my 70 as the hardcore members of my guild, I don’t have a whole roster of 70 toons that I can switch between as the circumstances require. I came to WoW post TBC and do truly regret not running the pre TBC raids. Some of the most fun our guild has had recently has been going back and running ZG “just for kicks.” All that said I consider myself a skilled player. I take pride when I out dps other mages who have been playing longer and have better gear and I still maintain less agro (and perform the necessary decurse/counterspell/poly – don’t get me started on players who don’t want to do this to keep their dps up).

I like the fact that Blizzard has opened up much of the higher level content as it has allowed me to steadily progress in difficulty without having to GRIND forever on the same content. I still feel a sense of accomplishment when I get the next piece of my T4 set even if I have a piece of badge gear that is slightly better (in most situations). I still respect other players who have complete T4-6/S1-3 sets and wear them with pride. I wish I could obtain one of the pre BC titles or the champion of the naruu title. I understand that those players not only accomplished these things before I ever started playing, they likely did so without some of the more refined strategy on or the latest tweaks and warnings in deadly boss mods. Does the fact that I may achieve some of these same rewards slightly easier than them lessen my respect for them? No.

At this point I can not fault Blizzard for opening up high level content. It has benefited me as a player and makes business sense for them. If they keep this content and the associated rewards exclusive then when the expansion comes out the market for it is going to be much smaller as many players will postpone getting it as they are not yet geared enough to experience it. If I find any fault with Blizzard it may be for the pace of the changes. I think many fewer people would object except it is a “too much all at once” problem. If these changes could be made at a slightly slower but steady pace I believe you would have fewer objections. (Then again I may be delusional)

For those who claim that these changes lessen or demean their accomplishments I want to offer two RL examples; First is the Apple I-Phone. Everyone who initially purchased one had to have known they were paying a premium to be an early adopter. Yet despite this, people were lined up around the block at Apple and Cingular stores to get one. I have no sympathy for those who complained when Apple lowered their prices. Did this lessen the value of the phone? Only if you are looking solely at resale value. The phone you purchased at the original price didn’t function any differently and not only did you benefit from the use of the phone for several months longer that the second wave of purchasers, but you got to be the center of attention in your circle of gadget geeks. As for me, I’ll wait until it cost less, has 3G internet capabilities and a real interface to Exchange server. IE… When they eliminate the attunement and maybe nerf a problem or two… In the meantime, I’m still going to be envious.

As my second example I give you Sir Edmund Hillary. A whole industry has sprung up around getting people to the summit of Everest. (Websites, guides, maps, equipment…. Sound familiar?) Just getting started is easier and less expensive than it was in the past. In other words, the attunement has been lessened and the climb has been nerfed. Still if you tell me you spent last summer summiting Everest, I’m going to be mightily impressed. Why? Because most people who go still don’t summit, and it’s not unusual to die in the process. (Sounds a lot like my guilds runs through SSC and the Eye.) Still if you ask a random person for the name of someone who climbed Everest, you will likely only get one name. Sir Edmund Hillary. Everyone remembers those who get there first and in doing benefit all those who come behind.


On March 18, 2008 at 12:21 pm

Lets look at an earlier change…I was one of the first 70′s on my server and able to do heroics (had revered rep with all factions) within 2-3 months. Now, at that point it was possible to pug a good group for ANY heroic (and this was before they were majorly nerfed) and be able to do them successfully. Then blizzard lowered the rep to honored and for a while it became near impossible to find a good geared group for heroics by pugging. Basically the attunements and rep requirements were good for sorting out the people that could do the content, and the removal of those hurt the game imo for at least a while.

As far as War being compared to wow…WAR is designed to be even more casual pvpwise with the focus being on PVP content, which I’d be very surprised if it doesn’t turn into a repetitive grind just like wow’s system….I think WoW is still the best out there and will be for a while. Alot of the nerfing and changes to wow have been to make it more appealing to the average player that blizzard is worried about losing to WAR and other competition.


On March 18, 2008 at 12:29 pm

in response to Mihale (earthen ring)

“I’m responding to this because I see both sides of the equation. While I appreciate the fact that I am now downing void-reaver weekly and I didn’t have to finish the attunement, it does upset me somewhat that I was so close to getting attuned anyway and the accomplishment was pulled out from under me.”
end quote

… are you nuts? your not even close to getting attuned you freak


On March 18, 2008 at 12:29 pm

There’s a difference between clearing a high-level raid, having it on farm, and having your guild fully decked in its rewards. The first, if the guild is geared and ready, takes about a week. The second takes about a month. The latter takes about 6 months. This badge-for-actually-good-gear business is a stop-gap, making it possible to progress without being in one of the top guilds in the country. I would raid, but I work in a retail environment, where my schedule is never fixed, making it practically impossible for me to guarantee that I will be able to attend scheduled raid times. Basically, this means that, once I hit the wall with heroics (as I have), my advancement in WoW is bang-you’re-dead over. I have two 70s that I haven’t touched in months save for 10 arena games a week because, frankly, there isn’t any more content that I can access. With this new gear, the requirements for making scheduled raid times is lessened (though not eliminated). Is this really such a horrible thing?

Before you call me a “casual player” let me say that I have a toon of every class, all leveled to at least 50 and most making the transition to Outland, save for my 70 druid and paly. I have found that the lower portion of the game, namely power-leveling, is much more fun because there is actually constant progression, not 100 hours a week spent chasing after a single piece of epic gear. But this is a problem, because all that great content that Blizz has created I don’t see. I’ve beaten WoW 1.0 about 10 times now. I’ve yet to get halfway through WoW 2.0 not because I’m a crappy or casual player, but because I have a job and a life outside of the game.

Yes, you can get PVP gear to up your chances, but have you PVPed in greens and blues against someone in top-level tier gear? Even in high-resilience gear vs. tier gear, it’s not a contest. It’s not a game. It’s a guaranteed one-sided slaughter, and no amount of playing skill can bridge this gap. Is it really fun to just look at everything and kill it? Is it really fun to look at everything and get killed by it? No, it’s fun when it’s a challenge, but one that in the end CAN BE WON by either side, and it’s left to the skill (and trickery) of both sides to sort it out.

Remember the classic MMO maxim: great gear does not a great player make. If you have tiered-out toons and a bad strat, you’re not getting anywhere. Class balance, play style, and teamwork remain the cornerstones of winning strategy. This situation is analogous to when Merc gear became the de facto for everyone: now that everyone can get it, its high regard has been tempered. There is still incentive to go and get the real McCoy. The top badge armor still doesn’t have the caché or status of that from BT/Hyjal/Sunwell, and sitting in Org square showing off your badge gear likely won’t garner you many /whistles, just as sitting there with Merc shoulders doesn’t get much praise anymore, either. There is still room to be badass; it’s just possible for the more casual player to not get absolutely trounced by people who spend entirely too much time playing a video game. (Remember: Bring your friends to Azeroth, but go outside with them too!) In the end, the players who have beaten the high-level instances (and practiced the STRATEGIES necessary to overcome these obstacles) will still see victory rates well over 50%. If you want to dominate everything at every turn, go play a traditional RPG. The point of an MMO is that while one day you may be top dawg, staying at the top of the heap is much harder than getting there.


On March 18, 2008 at 12:33 pm

It’s my belief that it was the people that raided that kept this game going, they would pay their fee and grind hours on levels, quests, attunments, farming consumables, learning bosses, farming, learning next instance, etc.. The casual base wants to explore all the content as well and need the game dumbed down in order to complete said objectives in a shorter period of time. If the raiders were to leave and find the next replacement to spending hours in WoW, the casual base would soon follow. When wow dies that will likely be the reason, raiders found something better to dedicate their time/effort into and the casual community will have become bored with their WoW Hello Kitty Island Adventure mode(Now with free lvl 70′s, epic flyer, and gear crates in your starting bag!)who will then follow the raiders to the next “hit game”.

I mean you don’t see Blizzard introducing more content for the casual player do you? Something like more quests or new 5 man dungeons?

LOL @ Ron

On March 18, 2008 at 12:51 pm

Hey Ron, sorry to say this but you are obviously a casual player your self and a trash. You really think casuals are keeping this game alive? Think again. You try raiding 5 hours per day, at least for 4 days per week. Let’s see if you’d enjoy people getting equivalent gear with out doing what you have to do get such gear. Badge system = total crap, and you are a blizzard’s ass kisser. Learn to think before you write an article stupid.

Helen Kei Cheung

On March 18, 2008 at 12:53 pm

:shock: Sounds like someone is a casual gamer themselves who couldn’t get into one of those “elitest hardcore guilds” that they seem to hate so much.

Strangely enough, when Blizzard changed raiding contents to 25 man instead of 40, they doubled (almost) the chances of Elite guilds and allowed for more players to participate in the events.

That being said, the above points are completely invalid in regards of badges and instance loot. Sure, I use to be a casual gamer pre BC myself, as I wasn’t able to join one of the top end guilds since I started late, it doesn’t mean that there was no other methods of working for gears, it was just less rewarding that was all. I can see why the idea for badges for casual players came from, and I can see why the argument that they deserve some gears.

I will agree with the fact they deserve SOME epics, not epics that others spend 30 hrs+ a week of their life for, while casuals play 5 hours to obtain.

Maybe there’s something that people fail to realize just because this is a game. Just because this is a game, people would like to argue the fact that hardwork / luck should not equal to reward.

Isn’t that ridiculous? Have you ever even consider the fact that this won’t work in reality it won’t work in a game?

So consider this, while you’re writing your article, spending, I don’t know what, 1 hour of effort researching for ideas? (Judging from the lack of insight on the article, you’re pretty much just cloning word from word of the Blizzard development team) Some other guy walks in with a 1 min script that is barely composed of any words and gets his post posted along with yours, get paid for the same price as yours, and get promoted the exact same way. How would you feel? Maybe if you could answer that question you would realize where in hell did Blizzard go wrong.

Sure they realize that they will soon not be able to compete with Warhammer or other better thought up games in the future, but what they fail at is deciding which part of the customers should they be dedicated to keep.

Congratulations on enjoying the World of Casualcraft, don’t worry, I’m not so sad about it. See as an “elitest ” myself, I already have other plans.


On March 18, 2008 at 12:53 pm

If the elitist’s parents had the same attitude they did, there would be no hand-me-down vehicles for them. If they claim they’ve worked for everything they had in life, that’s likely a falsehood because applying the same type of criterion in WoW shows they have little perspective.

Amazing how immaturity shines like a 1M candlepower light in an “opinion” forum such as this.


On March 18, 2008 at 12:56 pm

The game is easy as hell ….


On March 18, 2008 at 12:57 pm

Yeah, I am quitting WoW because of casual/trash players like you Ron. Why do you idiot casuals play the game if you can’t play much? just don’t play? play something like CoD4 which doesn’t require tons of time consuming. sigh casuals are so stupid. so are you Ron. head.


On March 18, 2008 at 12:58 pm

Hello nOOb, learn to play before you complain about elitists people LOL learn to play better then top guilds will recruit you.

Raider's choice

On March 18, 2008 at 1:11 pm

This is a lengthy page with many quality posts on it. I’ll add my tid-bit:

I have been stuck in SSC/TK for quite some time now, crossing many guilds that broke apart at the Vashj/Kael road-block. I now have Vashj, but Kael is generally difficult, getting everyone to do everything in one perfect execution.

As a raider, I still want to kill Kael (there is still incentive to see him die).

Still, 2.4 will allow for plenty of those guilds that have been stuck at that content for months to bypass it and experience the new content that they have wanted to see since the trailor came out (the Black Temple trailor is epic). Now you claim that casual players will get access to high-quality PvE gear that is of a BT/Hyjal quality….

Does this mean that they will be able to do BT/Hyjal? No. What it simply means is that there will be higher-quality PvE’ers in the game to play with, which is really a good thing. Sunwell excites the hard-core raiding guilds…. the heroic token rewards excites the casual players (who will still take months upon months to farm the badges for those drops), the expansion will come out, and all will be forgotten.

Honestly, nothing wrong with a patch that appeals to both the raiding population and the casual population, especially considering both raiders and casual players often swap back and forth between those two styles.


On March 18, 2008 at 1:12 pm

I still do not understand the outburst from the so called true hardcore raiders. Firstly, a true hardcore raider is in the game to beat content first (server, continent, world). Such a person does not care that someone beats the same content 6-12 months later.

And just as a sidenote – I raided non-stop from day 1 until Illidan was downed this summer. We defeated Naxxramas in November the year before TBC was released. So I have done all content up to ZA (which I have never entered).

Looking at the first paragraph leaves us with alot of whiners that call themselves hardcore raiders in various comments here. MMOs are about character progression, progression is about gear, reputation and professions. Every player that plays the game need to have progression that makes them motivated to continue playing (and pay the 15 USD a month). Now – the conclusion from that is that whatever your gear is today a casual Joe will have that gear at some point in the future (maybe with different graphics etc but the same iLvl). So what we are talking about is how long your exclusivity period will be. With the opening of BT and MT in 2.4 casuals will be able to enter these instances ~9 months after hard-core players defeated Illidan and Archimonde (casuals will most likely never defeat them). How on earth can you feel devalued by this? When you have defeated Sunwell and is decked out in new epics (the best the game can provide you with, mind you) the casual Joe is trying the third boss or so in MT and BT.

The only guild type that is suffering from these things is the well organized casual raiding guild. They will most likely just have defeated SSC and TK when 2.4 is released. They get 0 exclusivity period in MH and BT for their efforts.


On March 18, 2008 at 1:19 pm

While it doesn’t demean your accomplishment, casual players won’t be able to get this loot after 5 hours of playing…. Last I checked, 5 hours ~ 2 heroics (counting travel time and time looking for groups) and makes for about 6 or 7 badges….

Add this up and it is some significant time to get all of the badge gear, which costs plenty of badges enough. It’ll be easier for those guilds that have Kara on farm and even easier for those that run ZA and daily heroics, but still doesn’t mean every scrub guild who can farm Kara is going to jump into BT/Hyjal. The attunement lift is for those guilds who are stuck at and can’t get over the Vashj/Kael block and are banging their heads against Kael for 2 or 3 months, gaining and losing people all at the same time.

Continue to be elitest, but the game should be better enough now that they’re making it less exclusive and offering insentive to those who play the game with friends and aren’t into raiding for life.

Tom L

On March 18, 2008 at 1:22 pm

All the raiders complaining about badge loot are missing the ultimate point of it. Badge loot was put in the game to benefit both the casual and hardcore player. By taking some of the loot normally found on the bosses and making them ‘buyable’ it shortened the loot tables to speed up the gearing process of the raid, while also giving them something to do while waiting for the instance timer to reset. This allows you to fully outfit your toon with the gear you need (for multiple specs and classes) while not making the loot tables so large that a time is wasted ‘farming enchanting mats.’

The benefit to casual players is obvious, but with a point that has not been made here… and that is that everyone who plays the game should have a progression path and badges loot provides that, otherwise they will stop playing the game.

When there is no hope of advancing your toon, your attention will wander to something else.

To those that have grokked the idea that there are good players not currently in raiding guilds and are just lacking the gear, bravo. There are plenty of people out there who have the skills but don’t have the schedule. Allowing them a progression path is a service to them.

I’m in a guild much like the OP, and I can say without a doubt that without badge loot we wouldn’t be where we are, not because of a lack of skill but because of a lack of committment of the more ‘hardcore’ players in the guild to those who did not share their attitude. They would get frustrated with our lack of progression and when the raid was called, would log off as opposed to re-running Kara to help a new guildie or alt get geared up.

Truly, most of you have not considered the real world dynamics of any of this and just want to mark your territory with half-formed ideas of ‘achievement’ or ‘skill.’ The truth is that it is in Blizzard’s and most everyone else’s best interest to lower the barrier to entry for higher end gear as the game progresses. Hardcore raiding guilds should have access to the best gear the fastest, while those working on a slower progression scale should achieve those results slower, but they should still have those goals be achievable within their level of committment to the game.



On March 18, 2008 at 1:23 pm

It seems to me that a lot of the replies on this site are retarded and stupid. Its pretty obvious that blizzard was going to do this, I mean, what the hell is the point of making a game when only less the 5% of the players are able to experience it. what happens to all of the 70 casual players once they hit 70? should they just quit if they cannot spend the time to progress in instances? All of the elitists that play the game just gotta step back and let other people enjoy it now, you had your rush and fame and all that .

Ze bonk

On March 18, 2008 at 1:32 pm

The only reason blizzard is doing this is to keep the players busy until Lich King gets out. This will give casuals (which is the biggest part of their player base)”new goals” in-game, which will lead to them paying for another month. They did the exact same thing in 2.0, some months before TBC hit, making it easy to get shiny epix so everyone would keep on playing. And hell.. it works, so why not? ;)

3 x 5

On March 18, 2008 at 1:53 pm

World of Warcraft is an MMO. A massive multiplayer online game. By removing the atunements and giving Tier 6 quality gear for badges, they are essentially saying that those random 5 people who ran some random heroic dungeon are the same as the guilds who put in hundreds of hours of time and effort learning the fights through Hyjal and the Black Temple. When this game was released, having epic gear actually meant something. Having high PvP ranks was something to be proud of, because it was something that seperated you from the casuals, having that tier gear showed that you had the dedication to see something through (even if it is just a video game). Now, with high ilevel gear being given out like candy for a few measly heroic dungeon runs, and gladiator gear being on-par with tier gear, Blizzard is phasing out the raiders in favor of the casuals who think that they are just as important just because they pay the same fee as everyone else. If that’s true, then raiders should be getting some serious bonuses, because not only do they pay the fee, they actually play the game instead of expecting everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.


On March 18, 2008 at 2:03 pm

Me being a beta tester i like the idea, I raid often. Almost every other day. But look at it from my prospective, Me and my guildies have busted out (*&$es to get to Hyjal, just to find out that in a couple of weeks it was for nothing, just to find out that in a couple weeks it’s going to be alot easier. I see why there doing but they should still do something to make the elite raiders stand out among the casual players. Ya know?


On March 18, 2008 at 2:12 pm

Yanno, all the points you brought up…. it still doesn’t matter if Blizzard gave all the people still in Karazhan level 141 gear and removed all attunements, there’s still going to be a lot of people who aren’t going to experience Archimonde and Illidan Stormrage for the simple fact that it actually takes a brain to fight these bosses.

A 12-year-old with the new badge gear isn’t going to last 10 seconds against Supremus because he’s 12, and will NEVER know when to move out of fire. He’s not going to know how to run away from other people in the Mother fight. If your local Karazhan running guild decided to step foot in BT and wanted to be serious about it, they’re gonna find out that their shiny new badge gear can only get them SO far… and when the people in these casual guilds start doing this end-game content that has been kept out of their reach, I can practically guarantee you there’s going to be many standout “weak links” that will probably be coddled until the guild’s “casual raiding” environment emplodes, with all the decent players of those guilds going to more organized guilds, and the remnants confined to PvP for the remainer of the time they play the game.

You think that WON’T happen? I’ve seen it already… many times, two long-standing casual guilds explode every time a new season of Arena gear comes out on my server. This will probably be a deathblow to a lot more.

As good willed as Blizzard may be to try to get as many people to view all the fights they want, they’d have to give it some serious Magtheridon-magnitude nerfs if they really want everyone to see EVERY boss in the game. And if they DID do that, they’ll be losing their most devoted player base in the game due to the raid content no longer being a challenge for people who ARE doing well with content the way it is. Don’t get me started how that’ll destroy various servers — the economy of various servers thrives as-is with this raiding caste system. When you lose the biggest consumers of Enchanting materials, herbs, and Primals… you’re going to see a massive economy collapse.


On March 18, 2008 at 2:17 pm

I am the main tank of a guild that has been farming Illidan for 7 months now. From my point of view, it doesn’t matter what blizzard does. Whether they give casual players gear that equals the quality of mine or allows them to see content I’ve already see, without having to go through what my guild went through. The fact remains as this, the casual players with their new gear, and restrictions lifted from BT/Hyjal, will never see Illidan. Why? For the same reason they are incapable of seeing him now. They suck. They’re the worst breed of MMO players. These players that are feeling so proud now that their fail guilds will see BT, will find themselves failing, because they couldn’t get through the content that was easier to reach the point they’re at now. Enjoy your BT/Hyjal, oh wait I mean to say enjoy wiping and /gdisbanding. Peace.


On March 18, 2008 at 2:19 pm

Yanno, sitting there and insulting a “minority” doesn’t make your opinion any more correct than their, Ron. :neutral:


On March 18, 2008 at 2:33 pm

and BTW, the comparison of the Book being only sold to 100 people isn’t accurate at all.

How it ACTUALLY functions as of right now is…

1) Guy writes a 1,200 page book, and it’s published and very widely distributed.

2) Five million people buy the book, read the first 400 pages, then stop reading because the words started getting longer, they had to get a dictionary to understand some phrases, or they got bored and would rather sit around and watch TV.

3) Three thousand people involved in small book clubs across the country read the book from cover to cover, and enjoy it immensely and discuss it amongst themselves.

4) They turn the book into a very stupid high-budget explosion-and-boob filled movie, and suddenly those five million people are spouting out lines and “OMG SUCH A GOOD BOOK” much to the chagrin to those who actually DID read the book.

5) Another three million people buy the book — much to the publisher’s joy — and whether or not these people actually finish or read the whole book it pointless, they already know how it’s going to end and they wind up just selling the books to used book stores to pick up some extra cash.

6) The publisher of the book doesn’t care, because he just profited from of 8 million copies of the book sold, regardless.

7) Author is paid the same small commission fee due to getting ripped off in his contract with the publisher.


On March 18, 2008 at 2:55 pm

Shadowkanji, US Shadowmoon server.

Officer of KohF, and a raider for nearly 3 years, maintaining over 95% raid attendance since MC.

Alot of you probably laugh at that thought, but hey its a choice I made. I go to college, I have a part-time job, I still go out and hang out and drink with my friends. I just choose to spend all my “free” time, playing and enjoying WoW with my guild. I put “free” in quotations because time is not free. It is a resource, you spend it, and the efficiency upon which you spend it denotes its “value” to you, but in the end Time is a resource that cannot be refunded.

Attunement removal is fine, any smart raider doesn’t care about this change. It allows you to recruit without having to backtrack, and it allows you to gear up alts. This week we did an all alt SSC and TK, and cleared thro it fine. We are using this new change to give our raid team more versatility, with each member having a geared alt of a different role than their main, so that we can compensate for encounters. We’ve done this throughout our raiding experience, but with 2.4 we are set up to be able to have EVERY raider have a geared alt.

Take note that our alts have never killed gruul, or mag, and are composed mainly of arena and pvp gear with kara epics sprinkled with badge gear, and we cleared through both Kael and Vashj with minimal effort. This is proof that gear is not a determinate in many of these encounters, its cooperation and skill of the raid team as a whole.

/start elitest rant

Scrub guilds will not see illidan. Scrub guilds in full tier 6 will not see illidan. If you could not kill Kael, you will still not be able to clear hyjal or BT. Kael was one the most technical fights in the game, and honestly made half of BT and hyjal encounters feel too easy (supremus and akama lolz). The current nerfed version (its been nerfed over..and over…) is childs play. If you are in a guild that cannot kill this version of him, I do not see you getting far in tier 6 instances.

/end elitist rant.

basically. I am not bothered by the changes (I was at one moment, but its changed). Basically they have made recruitment easier (turnover on raiders is high), and they have made gearing alts much easier. Does it bother me that my tier 6 pants are inferior to the badge pants being introduced in 2.4? Not really. Because you can strut around in those pants, but they won’t automatically give you the skill needed to beat those bosses.

The only thing I ask of blizzard is this: Feel free to dumb down content that is outdated, but make sure you keep making new content difficult so that us raiders are entertained.

also I love the reference to 12 year olds. I know two players who excell in both pvp as well as pve and are both 16 year olds. I also know plenty married players with children who are god-awful at this game. Age is negligable when it comes to skill in this game. Though personally raiding as any class is so simple, it defys logic how some people do not perform well.


On March 18, 2008 at 2:59 pm

I don’t disagree that it would be nice for more casual guilds to experience BT/MH content. I disagree with the method they are implementing the solution with. Letting people skip the entire existing progression chain is not the right way to handle it. You can allow more casual guilds to progress without such a extreme solution.

There are many encounters in this game that are wildly out of whack for the level of progression. Magtheridon is much more difficult tactically than Lurker or Void Reaver. Vashj and Kael are much more difficult than the first 4 bosses in Hyjal and BT. Instead of addressing these problems by simply allowing players to skip it, instead make the content in line with other bosses at that level of progression.

Think of it this way. There are 3 tiers of guilds at this point.

1) Hyjal/BT guilds
2) SSC/TK guilds
3) Kara/Gruul guilds

Now, remove attunements.

Group 1 is unaffected by the change.
Group 2 gets to see Hyjal/BT which they otherwise might not.
Group 3 eventually gets to see Hyjal/BT which they otherwise might not. They likely will miss SSC/TK, because there’s no reason to go there.

Now, instead, make Vashj/Kael easier, in line with the rest of SSC/TK.

Group 1 is unaffected by the change.
Group 2 gets to see Hyjal/BT which they otherwise might not.
Group 3 gets to see SSC/TK which they otherwise might not. They likely miss out on Hyjal/BT.

This is a much more even handed solution. It gives all raiding guilds new content they can experience. And honestly, it gives group 3 more interesting fights. This change is not going to give them access to Archimonde or Illidan, they are never going to make it that far. They will down the first few bosses in Hyjal, and the first few bosses in BT. The learning curve for a guild who can’t kill Vashj or Kael for the later T6 fights will be ridiculously steep, and unlikely to happen before the expansion.

So, don’t give me this “Blizzard wants casual guilds to see the content” nonsense. Blizzard is not bribing casual players with content, Blizzard is bribing them with T6 purples. Having casual guilds farm Rage (tank and spank), Anatheron (tank and spank), Khaz’rogal (tank and spank), Azgalor (tank and spank), Najentus (tank and spank), and Supremus (tank and spank + Thaladred kiting) is frankly doing them a disservice. Vashj and Kael are two of the most interesting fights in WoW. If you want to do casual players a favor, give them incentive to experience that (by placing Hyjal and BT behind them, like they are now).


On March 18, 2008 at 3:13 pm

If you enjoy the notion of being rewarded for minimal effort, and the fact that you are fighting a dumbed down boss… well, they do not call it “dumbed down” for nothing ^_^.

Getting badge gear will not give you the ability to beat these bosses. Gear is not a “stopping” factor for progression. Does it help? yes, but many bosses have a high gear tolerance for the raid as a whole (exceptions are tanks), in which you can overcome them without being stacked in the “best” gear possible.

Personally the changes in 2.4 have allowed my guild to encourage all our raiders to have a raiding alt, in which not only to vary your experiences and hopefully make it more enjoyable when farming content, but also gives our raid team more versatility, if a fight demands more of certain role (ie aoe, or raid healing, or more tanks etc etc).

We did full SSC and TK clear on alts this week, after mains did MH and BT (we raid 2 nights on these a week now), and are actually looking forward to do partial/full hyjal or BTs with alts lol. These alts have pvp gear, Kara + ZA gear, and badge epis. The things you can get without doing 25 man raids, and on our first attempts with so many alts we smoothly cleared these encounters. Proof that you do not need to farm out an instance to beat vashj and kael. I expect little trouble in BT or hyjal, because while we are lacking a bit on gear (compared to our mains lol) the skill, cooperation, and cohesion is there.

Blizzard can give you the gear, and open the gates for you, but do not fool yourself thinking you will beat these encounters on that alone. If you could not beat kael, you will not beat archimonde or even see illidan.

Enjoy trying though. I think everyone should have the chance, and blizzard is giving you that.

Also do not bash on us hardcore raiders, poking fun at our social lives or the hours we play (and we do play alot lol), because as was mentioned before in a prior post, we do the hard work for you. When you enter BT you will be reading strats, watching videos, and having entire play by plays handed to you, all you need to do is execute it. Then again the same is true of vashj and kael…


On March 18, 2008 at 3:23 pm

In the end no matter what people say a game like WOW or any other MMO is only as strong as the hardcore players it has. Why do people come to play a game because they see what the hardcore people have. Knowing they may never have it but playing a game where they are will lead them to it.

The hardcores bring people in and give websites and the company something to show. Just like EQ when the hardcore people leave the game will die pretty quickly after.

So no matter how much you want to bash casuals or hardcore people the fact is when you lose a hardcore player base who does your end game content your done. Those casual or semi casual people will follow the hardcores to a new game and it will be the next big thing. So the more nerfs that come, the easier it is to get items it will keep that large base happy. That is what they need to do to keep wow alive right now. But once something new comes Blizzard will lose the hardcore players, then the casuals will follow and wow will turn into EQ and be a distant memory.


On March 18, 2008 at 3:42 pm

Hello All,

Wow, this is a long thread. Just wanted to put in my 2 cents. I was a hardcore raider pre BC. I was part of one of the top guilds on our server. Between trying to get new people attuned and farming MC (wow, remember MC for their gear, we were raiding every night. I have to say that if I was still doing that and Blizz made a chnge like this back then…I would not have been mad about it. I see it as an advantage.

We all remember when you couldn’t fill a 40man because we were so sick of farming MC, UBRS, and world Drgons to get NR gear for Naxx. We were sick of it. Having people leave the guild over dumb ass loot arguments and having to replace them and start the whole attunement and gearing process all over again. We all went through it, or at least something like it. Now, if you can’t fill a raid, grab a friend who is a casual gamer, who never had the time or support to get attuned, and he can come with you. With the birth of my son, I am not able to play like I used to, and I am bummed out to not see the new content. This may make it easier for me…and other as well. That makes for a more pleasant playing environment imho.
Something else to mention, I don’t feel that this takes away from your accomplshments. If I did all the work, the hours and teamwork required to get where I am in the game, I still know what I did even if has been made easier. So what if lil Timmy can do 1/3 of the work I did to get an item, I still know how much harder it was when I did it and that to me is a bragging right. (When I was a boy, I walked ten miles to school, up hill both ways….we didn’t have these damn school bus things) Should we take the buses away and make the kids walk barefoot? Just a thought.

Lastly, as a casual gamer now, I love to PvP. But, when I take my 66 Undead Lock into AV, and face hardcore raiders in that sick(but freaking gorgeous) gear, my 9000 health goes down faster than it took me to type this sentence. I think it will help even the playing field a bit. Again, imho, that makes it a bit more fun for the majority. If you don’t like the idea of it being more competitive…then I think you have gotten spoiled with how lucky you are to have the time and a great guild to get you through these things, and you need to go up agains’t an casual gamer in good gear and see if you get owned!

Above all else, remember that it is a game and it is meant to be fun.



On March 18, 2008 at 3:43 pm

As long as they are deep into SSC/TK and have been long enough to gear up their raiders and are just missing the Vashj and Kael kills, they should have no problem with the first few bosses in MH and BT. Rage is a joke anetheron’s carrion swarm is the only difficult part to that fight, and Najentus is all about hp and dps supremus is also a joke just gotta watch the volcanoes. AND i like “welfare” pvp gear, because the horde dominate our battlegroup and it helps get the alliance a few more wins here and there.

My brothers guild just killed vashj recently, but i dont think they will kill kael before the patch, but i know they are skilled and geared enough to start clearing some BT, MH.

Just make sure u have at least 1 prot pally…


On March 18, 2008 at 3:47 pm

Here’s the idea. Have a server where you HAVE to play your way up, do EVERY attune/raid to get to the end, etc. Please the end-game people. On the flip side, have servers that are improved (the new patches and stuff) for the casual gamers who don’t have the time/patience to play like mad and not have a life/job/decent grades/girlfriend/social life, etc (Not all apply to the hardcore gamer, usually 1 or more will apply, however, and if you say ANY otherwise, do some serious thinking….does one with a social life have the time to farm Illidan every night (considering the time that BT takes)?) Therefore, we will please all of the gamers. However, I would highly think…the easier servers would be MUCH more populated.


On March 18, 2008 at 3:48 pm

I find myself in awe of how seriously people take this game. Casual and hardcore and merely names plastered to actual, living people, and the groups are not nearly as homogeneous as anyone here seems to believe.

Not all casual players are the 10-year-old dregs, the Warlocks dressed in +STR gear using their imp to tank and the Druids who swear a “balanced” build with points in all three trees is superior despite wiping on tanking Slave Pens normal at level 70. Many casuals are men and women with families and jobs who can only devote so much time to the game – the odd heroic here and there, maybe a binge of 6-7 hours on the weekends if they’re lucky. They’re not stupid people, and if they had more time they may well be farming BT; but because they don’t have the time to devote, they’re stuck doing breezing through heroics here and there while those with the time needed to raid zoom by them.

It’s these people – the time-limited-yet-skilled – who stand to benefit most from badge gear changes. This gives them the chance to VERY SLOWLY build up to a level of gear they wouldn’t get otherwise. It could take them weeks or months, but they’ll eventually be able to increase their gear. Heroic badges a mere 5 at a time, maybe 10 losing arenas just to pick up the welfare points, and they can slowly become viable for maybe joining a raiding guild and doing maybe one or two bosses in TK or actually winning those 10 arena matches sometimes. As they do so, they get better gear and progress slowly.

Meanwhile, the “hardcore” players are zooming ahead in BT and Sunwell like usual. They have nothing to fear from the badge-gear casuals even with Tier 6-level badge gear available, as their vast play time to devote and their skill and coordination allow them to outpace the casuals who don’t have the luxury of hours to play each night and guilds to raid with.

The elitist outcry of the “cheapening” of accomplishments in WoW is a sickening Us vs. Them mentality that frankly scares and amuses me. The incompetent casual player will still be incompetent after gathering up a few pieces of badge gear. The smart casual will still be smart and casual after gathering up the same badge gear, but will have opportunities and content. available that they would simply never in a thousand years see had the ability to progress through casual play not been there.

So to modify the following from the previous comment:

“2) Five million people buy the book, read the first 400 pages, then stop reading because the words started getting longer, they had to get a dictionary to understand some phrases, or they got bored and would rather sit around and watch TV.”

Can be modified to:

“2) Five million people buy the book, read the first 400 pages, then stop reading because the words started getting longer, they had to get a dictionary to understand some phrases, or they got bored and would rather sit around and watch TV.
A few sometimes glance at the book when they get the chance, pick up a copy of the cliff notes one day in the mall, gradually learn more of the phrases and concepts from the odd reading, form their own opinions about the book and eventually might even be able to seek out the few elite readers who could understand the book when it was first published to hopefully discuss it with them.”

Following this with the current situation of elitist attitudes from the “hardcore” playerbase:

3) The elite readers scorn those who were slower with the book and had to use abhorrent things such as cliff notes, dictionaries and so forth to understand THEIR book. They immediately shun those not part of their original clubs and speak of them as unwashed heathens. The slower readers, shocked at the outcry from those they had wish to be civil with, become bitter and angry about the elites and their arrogance.

I think that about sums it up.


On March 18, 2008 at 4:02 pm

Guys, Blizz’s goal is to MAKE MONEY! Not keep the hardcore raiders feeling special. The more happy players there are the more monthly checks Blizz receives. Plus all the gear takes badges, which takes time.. Time = more monthly payments.


On March 18, 2008 at 4:10 pm

“Guys, Blizz’s goal is to MAKE MONEY! Not keep the hardcore raiders feeling special. The more happy players there are the more monthly checks Blizz receives. Plus all the gear takes badges, which takes time.. Time = more monthly payment”

You do realise most of these people came because they saw what hardcore players had, and once those hardcore people leave those casuals will follow to what htey think is a new and better game. So in the end you must keep the hardcores happy or your game dies.


On March 18, 2008 at 4:47 pm

Why are all these posts made my people who have no idea what its like to spend gruuling hours and effort for the whole raid experiance. I’ll tell you why, because its easy to sit and talk when you arent directly affected.

How about you actually try raiding for your gear, then watch a pack of drooling monkeys running around with the same level of stuff after putting in less than a tenth of your effort.

As if the new stupid PvP system didn’t kill raiding enough now we have to compete with the little lack luster 5 man heroics fanatics. The PvP system at level 60 was by far better than the way things are now. Back in the day those who deserved gear got it and there was a desire to be in a top raiding guild because items didn’t just drop on your head from the sky. If you aren’t willing to spend the hours you shouldnt have the gear it’s that simple. “aww poor me i dont play so much because i don’t want to or because i work too much” well tough crap thats the way of the world. If this is Blizzards chain of logic why don’t you make me a wealthy person for sitting on my ass and putting in no effort in real life aswell? Nah lets rather get our grubbly little paws on summore moneh and attract more people who will pick their nose and reap the benefits!


On March 18, 2008 at 4:58 pm

Adding to my last comment the sad thing is i been a huge fan of Blizzard Entertainment since the Starcraft / Diablo II days. I always enjoyed their well thought out idea’s to a challenging and exciting game, there was always something to build up for.

These days it just looks like they are more interested in making a dime the quickest way possible and although its giving you deep pockets now, sooner or later it will show through (such as using old item designs etc and lack of creativity in the newer content) but when it does show through you will just be another game company that fits in nicely with the rest of the pack. The glory days are fading and mark my words, you wont shine for much longer.

You may say i drift off topic but it all relates to quantity over quality. Payed character transfers? Payed name changes? If you werent just greedy you would make it cost in game gold with a few months cooldown before it can be done again (just to add another example). Dont worry im pushing up the same finger you’ve shown me and i DREAD the release of Starcraft 2 because im pretty sure you are going to tarnish that games repution with cheap ways to make quick sales aswell.


On March 18, 2008 at 5:12 pm

Actually lemme add some examples that relate to real life (haha im really going to get flamed by this, but mostly by people who havnt got a clue what im talking about)

You take a fine restaurant that serves fantastic food. When you add flavouring you add enough to taste it that leaves people wanting more. This is known as moderation. If you add too much people will either just dislike it or they will slowly get bored / sick of it. When you add it in moderation people search for the taste in their mouths and it makes them crave more. Now relating this in regards to building up your character in world of warcraft – lets look at level 60. Anyone who had an epic deserved to be inspected back in the day and if you ever got an epic you had to have more but you could only get it in moderation. To feed the crowd epics have been DUMPED on us with little to no effort (ie pouring an entire bottle of flavouring on the steak) this is how i refer to something as ‘lack luster’. Theres no build up to it anymore, you’re getting sick of the flavour slowly but sure if not already.

Another example look at songs on the radio, who didn’t like crawling by Linkin Park when it came out? Radio played it to death and i cant stand it anymore. Unfortunately Linkin Park kept making the same sort of stuff, different lyrics but it all sounds the same. I wont even buy their albums anymore. Get what im saying?

Flame away with your narrow minded defence of cheap game play if you like. TBH i feel better getting this all out my mind anyways and yeah maybe i did carry on an drift off topic with strange examples but its not like itll change anything anyway.


On March 18, 2008 at 5:17 pm

Imo, raise age requirement to atleast 16+ on WoW and keep the dificulty on the hardest raid instances as naxxramas was, I mean to even get to black tempel is easy…and now ppl don’t have to do ANY sort of effort in getting the epic quality loot…it’s redicioulus.


On March 18, 2008 at 6:04 pm

why should i raid ssc or tk , when i can farm bdges in karazhan and get Bt gear equivalent? :roll:

i agree with avoiding the attunement but not in the badge rewards. tht’s all



On March 18, 2008 at 6:27 pm

After reading the article and a few posts quite frankly i think the the article title should be changed. But dont get the wrong idea. I totally agree with what blizz does otherwise you would need alot of hours. If you call dumbing simplifying or making it more forgiving so u can comit more errors, heck Blizard has always done it and if u can do it with better gear than people could had at that time then u can commit more errors and therefore its dumbed in the sense that you require less skill which doesnt mean u havent.
From a global point its but a cycle where the raid instances begin by being the hardest (which doesnt mean they are hard at all) and are dumbed down till some point, which doesnt mean that the latest was hardest than the previous one if you compare the release version.

So to the majority of the playerbase blizzard is dumbing it down.
To the most hardcore assuming a good point of comparison would be how hard they were at release i would have no idea but if I had to guess id say its keeping the dificulty but the writer fails to comment on this so…


On March 18, 2008 at 7:42 pm

:arrow: People should stop being selective about what they like or dislike about WoW.

+ Did you complain when they made it less time to level all 20 of you “hard-core” persons alts from 1-60
+ Do you not also get badge gear at 70 between Kara runs.
+ Do you also not PVP at least between instance cooldowns?
+ Do you never get bored enough to play “unmissed content” like ZG, Naxx, Ony, BWL, Etc

Blizzard could just as easily make it so once you hit 70, you aren’t allowed into the “Lower-Level” Area’s… and restrict you by gear. Are you that hardcore enough just to stick to your guns and just Raid — nothing more?

WoW is more then just end-game and 5-man’s. People play here to have fun! More content is coming your way so if you enjoy Raiding – RAID ON — casual players aren’t ruining the game or the way you have fun, we aren’t standing around in IF waiting to be inspected — we’re too busy having fun.
:idea: World of Warcraft = a computer game. :)


On March 18, 2008 at 7:50 pm

TK and SSC had attunements removed and badge gear released on par….

-Didn’t cause a huge influx of casual players destroying endgame.

Arena gear easier to obtain by honor…

-No one raids with more than a piece or 2 of arena gear, and that gets replaced with PvE gear when the time comes.

Hardcore players complain about the same thing that happened before the expansion….

-But they still play for the feeling of accomplishment, when they kill endgame bosses before 90% of their respective servers.

Hardcore gamers think casual gamers are terrible players and cannot do endgame because of lack of skill.

-Thankfully, we have casual gamers. If we didn’t, we wouldn’t have anything but lanparty buildings and no one working anywhere else…and I want my Burger King cooks to delivery hot, tasty foodstuffs. Also, WoW doesn’t require skill, ever.

Casual Gamers feel the hardcore are virgins, losers, posers, ect…

-I am military, I defend this ingrateful country, and I am forced to live in a crappy, boring city. WoW keeps my sanity, and I will be hardcore until I move. I am none of the above.

Blizzard breaks one of the new deadly sins and makes tons of cash by incorporating casual gaming and providing a fun, generous atmosphere for gamers…

-TBH, all I can say is thanks, and keep up the good work.


On March 18, 2008 at 8:05 pm

Reading most of these comments I can give you the tl;dr version:



On March 18, 2008 at 8:11 pm

Sakati you just proved my point, it’s text book elitist behavior, not only are you prejudging ppl, but you also think youre better then others and that somehow you have a special right to a certain place and that others don’t, and that they shouldn’t try to go there at all since it will lagg up the game for the players who deserve to be there…?

I could now use allot of harsh words because your negative behavior justifies it, but Im not going to, you want to know why…? Because quite frankly no matter what you say it’s not going to change a thing, the game has changed allot for the better and it’s just going to get better, and you can talk all you want about that ppl will get boored and leave to another game, when it’s the oposite, even more ppl will join the game because of the changes, so really the only thing youre doing with what youre saying is to expose youre self for the little selfish person that you are.

Why am i selfing and an elitist guy? Just because i think that after farming bt/hyjal for 5 months i deserve a better starting spot in an instance. Because i dont think its right that ppl who spent months getting gear to do good in future will get a spit in the face with 2.4. And yes to be honest, if someone can not beat t5 or t6 pve, he wont be able to beat sunwell. Sry, but its just a pattern, they will hardly break, yes some ppl might benefit from gear, but hardly there will be 10 times more guilds clearing sunwell because they got better gear.

So, stop the selfish trowing around, since ppl spent time getting items so they can progress better in future pve, and now rest is getting same or even better items for badges. And in the end i could toss the ball of beeing selfish right beck into ur own yard, since u are the one saying i dont care for ppl who spent hours and hours to obtain a certain item all i care (and want) is me beeing able to get the same or better items for way less time.


On March 18, 2008 at 8:15 pm

For a whole year we raided and raided and raided and finally got to the point where we could with a few tries down a boss or two in Nax. Then came The Burning Crusade and our hopes of clearing Nax went out the window. We were sad at a missed oppertunity but jumped right into the expansion with vigor. Right now we are furiously trying to clear Kealthas so we can see Mt. Hyjal. Now you may ask what this has to do with the topic of conversation. The thing is this. Unfortunately we have not been able to get attuned to Mt. Hyjal because of one stupid boss and we really want to experience it before the next expansion or the same thing happens to us with Nax. Now Blizz could have gone two ways, either would have made “Hard Core” Raiders go berserk. 1: Never release new content until every last person in the game has finally cleared the last boos in the last raid. 2: Give the rest of the people a chance to experience existing content before a boatload of new content is released thus making the old content more or less obsolete. Seeing as everyone is looking at this from a Real Life perspective (cause apparently thats the thing to do these days) ill make a small comparison. The first man on the moon was Neil Armstrong(most people know that).The second man on the moon was Buzz Aldrin (not as many people know that).Technology became better and better making travel to the moon easier during this period (equivalent of what Blizz is doing to raids) .The 12th man on the moon was Jack Schmitt (not sure if anyone would have known this other than a handful). He had less training needed than Neil and had a far smoother ride in his state of the art space shuttle than Neil or any of those who came before but he won’t really be remembered. So quit complaining and grats youve cleared BT. Go play guild wars and leave the rest of us alone.

Turgon of KelThuzad

On March 18, 2008 at 9:05 pm

By the logic of this argument, then, arena items should not have a personal rating requirement.


On March 18, 2008 at 9:12 pm


It’s a hard topic to really look between. On one hand, you have players who will go on a severe ego trip that they’re in content others can’t access. While it may be flawed, you can’t say that it’s undeserved – they put in the time and effort to get where they are, and giving something as pointless as a title is like climbing Mt. Everest naked and only mentioned on the 3rd page in your local paper.

I, too, put in hours upon hours of effort for where I am today. Good ratings, good gear, good skill all around. Not many can honestly say they’re as good as I am – or better, let alone prove it.

But then on the other hand, we have a vast majority of ‘casual’ gamers wanting to see end-game content and get better gear. What I feel that a lot of people don’t accept is that ‘casual’ gamers are only that; casual. 9/10 of them don’t have the basic comprehension for even fighting Baron Geddon in MC. I don’t think they should be punished from seeing end-game – everyone wants to see new content, but I don’t think they should be so easily rewarded, either.

I feel that a lot of people just don’t bother putting in the effort, but demand to be rewarded. If that’s the case, why not just make all of the end-game instances have a Normal/Heroic version. Heroic would be left exactly as it is now, and Normal would be dumbed down for the ‘casuals’ with less loot/lower quality loot. That way the casuals can get geared, learn strategies and fights, and THEN jump into Heroic mode, all while seeing the end-game content that everyone truly deserves.


On March 18, 2008 at 9:33 pm

The ant and the grasshopper.
Grasshopper: lolz ant why are you working so hard?
Ant: Well, I’ve got to work hard to get the things to prepare for what lies ahead of us!
Grasshopper: lolz why are you doing that noob, just pick that stuff up at the nearest vendor!
Ant: Wait that’s not how this story goes!?


On March 18, 2008 at 10:04 pm

I’ve been playing wow well over 2 years and about 6 – 7 months ago I could say I was definitely a hardcore raider. I recently took a 2 month break, why? because my supposed ‘elite’ guild was incapable of progressing fast enough. Coupled with a number of other social issues amongst the guild it eventually fell apart.

It got me thinking, why do I do this? Why do I spend hours upon hours doing these instances only to not get the loot I want and to constantly die over and over in the process. All I want to do is have fun with my online friends and enjoy my gaming experience. I’ve been both a main tank, a healer and a dpser in a number of these guild types over my 2 year play period and the best times were always when my guild had gotten most of their loot and we did the instances solely for having a good time. Now when I got back from this 2 month break I had a long trail of thoughts go through my mind. I’m now a young adult, I have a job and a life to manage, I don’t have the time to dedicate myself to this hardcore nonsense any longer. So I joined a friends casual guild and it was THE BEST decision i ever made in regards to this game. We have so much fun and for the first time since before hitting the 60 and 70 caps I was enjoying the game as much as I did during my leveling process’s, which I will argue are the better times of wow, not the high end raiding but the simple 5 man fun transition period. Will I miss the elitist hardcore raiding? no. Am I glad that gear is becoming LESS important due to the fact its becoming easier to acquire? yes.

Its always been exactly what this game needs. 2.4 and Lich King will be a definite improvement and a positive change to the game for me and alot of my friends. I told some old buddies of these changes and its actually got them wanting to play once more after they had quit long ago.

I played on the Public Test Realms as often as I can to get an early glimpse of the new content and even when premade characters were the standard people still raided, in fact i’d say the number of raids going on on average went up by about 200%.
All these changes will do is simply make the game available to more people which IS a good thing. The only reason the elitists think its bad is because they are generally speaking people who have too much free time and clearly play wow too much. They then make wow there personal achievements in life and thus feel threatened by the prospect of there ‘life achievements’ being made null and void. I hope this wakes them up to the facts 1: Its just a game, 2: Games are meant to be fun. Games are NOT supposed to be a job or some extreme dedication that actually detracts from your real life. If you think otherwise then quit, go do something else with your free time. This game has the largest growing player base in the world and its only going to get bigger now. That is after all blizzard’s goal.


On March 18, 2008 at 10:17 pm

Introduce Heroic/Normal versions of Black Temple and Mount Hyjal.
Heroic is as it is today with attunements and no nerfed bosses. Normal is heavily toned down in difficulty with lower quality drops and can be done with Kara gear and/or people with hefty badge gear/pvp welfare epics that dont have the skill to do it as it is pre 2.4

Voila everyone is happy – casuals get to see the content inside BT/MH, and hardcore players get paid for their effort by having gear that not every player out there wears.

Of course its to late now – but might be an idea in WotLK (im sure the same will happen a year after the release of that expansion too).


On March 18, 2008 at 10:52 pm

In response to number9

“In response to Tuck, if I was a rude /elitist jerk I’d say if a trained monkey could do it, why can’t you? ”

Well if you read my post you would understand that my “problem” is the time issue along with finding 24 other “monkeys” having the time to give up their social life for a year or so. And yes I do know that you all have a wounderful time doing the same instance over and over again but thats not the point. When hardcore raiders booohoooos just because thing changes after some time you all sounds like 5 year olds with the “if I cant no one else should either” mentality.

All the hardcore Arena junkies must feel the same putting in so many hours playing game after game and then casual players can sit games out and still get some nice purples in the end of the season. The difference here is that skill pays off. You cant win games just because you got the gear. You need to be able to do the right moves with it as well. So the topdogs in Arena stays at the top even if everyone has the same gear.

Just because casual players like myself will get “easy” upgrades doesn´t mean BT will be easy street! I might be able to oneshoot a mob or two but that´s just for my own ego :cool:

Many top raiding guilds sell spots to higher instances to finance their raiding. Isn´t that the wrong way for people to get gear they don´t deserve and if so why do the topdogs allow it?

Finally, Am I jealous of you seeing stuff only a few get to see? Well I ran into a guy not long ago who had the guildname “You raid when I get laid” I would say that that says it all. That and maybe that it´s just a game :grin:


On March 18, 2008 at 10:52 pm

The main problem that exists with this type of change is that it removes a lot of the incentive for people to continue playing the game.

Many people play online games because it allows them to escape from their life, it allows them to strive for and to attain something more. When people see accomplishments others make (in terms of titles, gear, etc) it makes them want to work to get there. In the same way, if you see someone driving a Ferrari in real life, it may instill an urge in you to succeed to attain that yourself.

What Blizzard is doing is making Ferraris available to everyone. It diminishes their value, and people simply aren’t going to want to work to get them. What’s the point to work to get the same thing everyone else has? For me, playing MMORPGs (which I have since the day Everquest was released) has been about differentiating myself. When I saw someone with something I wanted, I figured out how to get there. I came, I saw, I conquered. This is literally the point of an MMORPG.

I see this change as being ideologically consistent with communism. In a communist society, the end result for most people is essentially the same, so you remove the desire to work at it. If you work hard but are forbidden from getting rich, will you work hard? If you dilute the value of accomplishment in a video game, are people still going to play as much or work as hard to get to the end?


On March 18, 2008 at 10:54 pm

There is no way Blizzard spends anything close to a fair share of the monthly proceeds on the server infrastructure or the game itself. Vivendi syphon off vast sums. Make no mistake Blizzard are lazy when it comes to anything but the marketing.

First off, all TBC did was make the game smaller, those who played World of Warcraft before Jan 2007 will understand this. It smashed a huge number of raiding guilds within weeks of release (almost every horde guild on my server) and for months made Karazhan the only remote prospect of raiding for anyone who wasn’t in the odd raiding guild that had survived or reformed.

TBC has killed what was once World of Warcraft. The whole game is slowly being diluted and dissolved to cater for the lowest common denominator, which is basically Mr.Clueless and far more importantly his monthly subscription. Almost every new “fix” is a difficulty nerf of one sort or another.

That’s ok for Mr.Clueless but what about the people who have played WoW since beta or early on? Those who crave the challenge and achievement of tough content and made the game what it was. Those who enjoy the theory crafting and squeezing the best out their character. The player community which made the game that attracted all these new monthly subscriptions in the first place.
These players (that haven’t already quit) now have to endure the endless nerfs to content like heroics and raid bosses because tards simply can’t hack it. There was a time when epic gear was earned and quite simply unavailable to casual players save a few random world drops.
The better times, the server had a proper community and good players achieved good things, crap players either floundered or got a clue fast.
The reason casuals are casuals is because they can’t play the tough content well for whatever reason. How the heck does slowly dragging everything down to that level help those who crave a challenging game experience and made the game what it is.

Let’s all just accept it’s not about the game, the lore, the community or the content any more.

For Blizzard it’s all about those monthly subscriptions rolling in. The more instant gratification more people have access to (skill is superfluous) the longer and possibly more those subs are likely to keep rolling in.


On March 19, 2008 at 12:25 am

I realize that I may have offended some hardcore raiders and that was never my goal.

We casual players do know what a big effort you all hardcore raiders have accomplished killing a non-nerfed accounter only weeks or a few months after it´s out. A world or server first means respect and I can understand that you feel that months of hard work goes down the drain when casual players can obtain top of the line gear way to easy. But you should know that as a casual player those badges needed for upgrades comes for a high price as well. Alot of us risk family and loved ones running Heroics or Karazhan even if we only do it a couple times a week. Heck, Im risking my life doing it and I wish that some protection auras were real when GF is having her go on me :roll:

If WoW was an endurance race but for a game I would say that Im not tough enough because I dont have all those hours to put in. However I don´t see that alot of hours is the same as skill per say. We as a casual guild struggled with Karazhan when it came out. Then we were few with less skill and crappy gear but slowly we managed to advance and by putting alot of effort during the hours we were online we could finally clear the tower. It took us why to long but we did it. Now our guild is a bit bigger and we are trying to manage bigger instances even if the number of player required makes it difficult as a casual guild with no requirements.

We have a pure swedish guild where everyone has a real name and we put alot of effort getting to know each and everyone. For us it´s a social thing but even so, we as players need to find new content without losing our life and that´s what Blizz is giving us. They can never give us a world or server first just by giving us a few good items but they give us something new, something better and we can feel good for some time. I just hope that hardcore raiders can see and understand us too beyond the issue of purples.


On March 19, 2008 at 1:03 am

Retarded post for all I care.

Why do we “elitist hardcore gamers” spend 5-6 hours a night of our lives to FARM the content for months and months for gear to be ready for the sunwell when you can just hang back and pick up the gear from a vendor on patch launch?

Why are we called “elitists” when we actually do put a significant effort into preparing our toons for the launch of the new instance and then get disappointed when blizzard, after months of farming for guilds, just hands out the stuff to others?
I killed illidan 5 months ago and I have spent every lockout since farming the content even though it was dead boring to get the gear and items I need to progress in the sunwell when it is released. For five ing months, every week, the same instance, the same mobs, and for what? A title? Great, I could just have cleared the instance, gone afk for 5 months and then pick up the gear from the vendor when I needed to.

THINK BEFORE YOU ACT and dont ing dare to call us elitists because we think it is unfair.


On March 19, 2008 at 2:10 am

You know, badges are earned, too.
That’s 5 full clears of Kara or 100 heroic boss kills to get ONE piece of gear.
That is basically 5 weeks of time.
You had the fun and satisfaction of knowing you killed a super hard boss to get your epic, and I’ll just feel like a cheapskate when I pick up my epic tanking chest, legs, and rings.
I don’t think they should be t6 equiv.
They should be t5 equiv, since it isn’t hard to get these days anyway.
Yes, the hardcore raiders feel they need to be shown that they can rape stuff.
Your guild title earns you respect.
All the guilds on my server that have killed Illidan are known, and that’s only two, and they are well respected as the 1337 of the realm.

If the game stops being fun, don’t play it.
That is the entire point of playing video games in the first place.


On March 19, 2008 at 3:29 am

The only problem I have with this article is the title.. basically what you

meant to say is that WOW is being dumbed down, but that your cool with it and

view it as a good thing. Alot of the so called elitist players in high end

raiding guilds I see getting so frequently bashed in posts here provided the

seed money for the content your seeing now. Content is certainly going down the

toilet, look at the speed at which Nihilum defeated all the TBC content. While

this is great news for Blizzard and its shareholders, they are taking a turn

away from what most of the veteran players loved, namely a challenge. Once upon

a time you would spend hours on your character and have the best gear

available… and with that would come a feeling of accomplishment, and other

players would know it too. Sadly in favor of a game more palatable to the casual

player, John Q. Everyman should apparently be able to enjoy all the joys of raid

quality gear with none of the time investment or hard work. I think as more and

more of the core players who made this game what is was realize this, hopefully

blizzard will lose more and more of thier marketshare to a company less willing

to cater to the masses.

Petrus, Argend Dawn (EU)

On March 19, 2008 at 3:51 am

I was reading all those replies thourgh as they mirror really all opinions I have heard so far. My guild started raiding later and we are more casual, raiding only 3 evening a week aside of 2 inofficial raiding evenings for 10-men instances or fun in pre-TBC places. We killed Kael’Thas and Lady Vashj already and preparing on Mount Hyjal and Black Temple, no matter if patch comes or not.

I know how it feels to think you get ripped off when you see Mount Hyjal and Black Temple open their gates to all. But honestly, same was Argent Dawn reputation to enter Naxxramas, same was removing attunement quest to Magtheridon and Gruul’s Lair. All were crying about it and what unjust happened and what it changed in reality? Nothing. There will be no flood of people going to Mount Hyjal and Black Temple skipping lower tier instances. They won’t be geared for it, neither will have infrastructure for such raids, they will just epicaly fail and that was it.

However it will help many guilds who just killed Kael’Thas and Vashj and do not need to run for next month to them just to attune all their raiders. This stupid attunement break will be removed. It was here only to slow down progress, it is not needed anymore. Blizzard is dosing the content and controls the pace, so we still run behind the carrot on the stick and do not snag it way to quickly. Do not tell me, that you very happy about these attunement runs. Notice that you can now go and finish your T5-sets directly by killing Lady Vashj and Kael’Thas in free time without cleaning whole instances. How many times you killed Lady Vashj and Kael’Thas before? I tell ya, exactly so many time you need to get enough people to MH and BT, that was it.

It is actually win-win for both sides. As long as those who feel ripped off realised that nothing changed in reality for them, moaning stops. There will be no masses running around in a week sporting T6 gear waving at them. The whole Azeroth and Outland will live their lives as yesterday.


On March 19, 2008 at 4:14 am

just play the game and ask yourself, Am I having fun ?
If not, quit it.

it’s that simple


On March 19, 2008 at 4:31 am

Now ive raided for 2 years and couldnt care less with removed attunements, and improved badge gear becoming availible.

6-8 hours a day i play, using multiple toons to have fun, Ive cleared everything up to Vashj and Kael and quite pleased..

Truth of the matter is even if guilds had kickass gear to throw insane dps and wonderful tanks inside Black Temple… Blizzard arent exactly nerfing boss battles, 2.4 badge geared raid groups alone wouldnt hack beyond difficult raid bosses since someone will just blow the raid up due to some sort of tactic, nothings tank n spank anymore, thats the reason why HARDCORE guilds rocketed in progression cos they got a hell of alot of skill, and there the only guilds i can really see still have Illidan kills and Mount Hyjal on farm, aswell as the clearing of upcoming Sunwell Plateau.

And on my server, if someone is actually raiding on there full Merciless/Vengeful Gladiator gear, there soundly acknowledged to not even be a raider, or they just cant do any better.


On March 19, 2008 at 4:56 am

I have 500 badges and am looking forward to the patch for my new gear. I still respect and honor the core players who have worked so hard to achieve what they have earned at a higher level. When I have my gear and feel like I can help my guild out with my new items, I was not aware that it may hurt the core guy’s feelings when I stand next to him in the Auction House, or would he be mad at me for my efforts? Just because I am given a way to get better badge gear doesnt mean I am allowed to run with you and your core guild anyway. I still respect you and your guild name doesnt go to rubbish. My guild is the oldest guild on the server, and that is something to be proud of.


On March 19, 2008 at 5:35 am

Everyone knows these things don’t really matter right?

Ok so now all the places are open to people once 2.4 comes out. Badge gear = T6 gear in some retrospects. Lets look at things however in a different POV. I’m simply basing this off my guild so to speak. We’ve cleared Hyjal, haven’t cleared BT yet, but we are close we are at Mother. Now lets take the fact that if my guild wanted to we could simply go into BT or Hyjal and basically rock the beginning bosses with ease, including Arch.

Now lets take a guild that’ll be “attempting” to go into BT/Hyjal thanks to the new 2.4 patch. Do you really think any of these guild will have a chance in hell of clearing these? Probably not.

This all, however, doesn’t mean a thing. The new content IS THE SUNWELL!!!! Yes I am one of those players that does take raiding semi seriously, even though I just took off a month basically for school matter, but lets face it. Sunwell is the new thing. Do you most people hear really think people will go back to Hyjal/BT? NO!!!! Let the “hardcore gamers” have their moments, and yes people do need to realize that they do deserve them. I don’t care what people say, guild now NEEDED guild that progressed and went hardcore for them. You think these strats magically appeared for you? No. Someone that did it before you came up with them.

Its a half and half battle. On one moment yes people that raid do deserve some credit for the accomplishment, because they took the time to make the strats for the rest of us. At the same time the casual player does deserve to see all that Blizzard has to offer. Yeah I don’t take kind to the fact that Kara = BT gear, but why should I care anymore? Going into Sunwell with people that raid well is better that people that have just reached SSC/TK. No offense to those that just reached that point, but with the exception of the Kael fight, there is no hard fight in SSC or TK.

I do admit both sides have valid arguments, but people need to see whats going to come up now, not was past. The Sunwell is a whole new ball game which will take those “hardcore gamers” to once again do their business. Otherwise where else will the rest of us look to for help.

Everyone needs to realize this is a game. Enjoy the game!


On March 19, 2008 at 6:41 am

I have mixed feelings about this at best.I can understand why bliz is doing it ( to get more money by keeping casual people playing). I don’t agree with this person at all tho. If you work for file front your should understand games a little better.

Casual players play less, care less, and quit faster. The “hardcore” players play a lot more,care a lot more, and will not quit so easy. For bliz to upset the base (as i call the) is not a grate idea. With games like warhammer online coming out soon u need to lock down your base and keep the hardcore wow players. The Casual players will be the 1st to leave the game for another one.

Casual players get shut down real fast in arena. They should dumb down SSC and TK for the casual players who are avg wow players at best.To give them T5+ gear for running a few kara’s is dumb. T6 will be like old D1 was when the game 1st come out. Everyone will be in it and your hardcore players will be pissed. What is a casual player going to do with t6? Other then die a lot? Gear might mean something like OH! i killed illiden. But it doesn’t mean Oh! i am pro at my class. It takes along time to get good at your class. /rant end


On March 19, 2008 at 7:43 am

Author failed to grasp the idea what who hc players are.

HC players dont care about BT, they have cleared ages ago.
In fact they are bored and they are looking forward to Sunwell and they will clear it ages before any casual.

The people who are upset about letting “casuals” into BT are those “semi-advanced-casuals” that happened to get to Illidan a week ago and would like to think they are HC (they are not).

Also its not true that HC gamers are not core of WoW. They are, they are creating tactics, they are the ones casulas are looking up to.
HC players are core of every game without exception just by the meaning in what a HC player is.


On March 19, 2008 at 8:42 am

As people before have already explained, what matters isn’t that people should never experience content, hell, remove cave in so you noobs can kill Gruul, let Mag click his own cubes, make Vashj not spawn adds and have Kaels adds removed. Let all the season one noob hunters who cant trap kill Illidan! I bet they would have way more fun than dying to a mob in heroic SV that didn’t freeze in their non existant freezing trap.

It’s not demanding raiding as much as to have killed Illidan by now, you just have to not be mentally challanged, or have a 24hr a day job.


On March 19, 2008 at 11:33 am

Why play WoW if everyone is going to get pretty much equal gear for little effort, might as well just take it the rest of the way & play Halo / Super Smash Brothers


On March 19, 2008 at 12:17 pm

Hm, yes….

I make a contract with you, you work in my field for 8 hours for some money. We agree on the sum of money. You say ok, its fine, and you sign the contract.
Then i invite some poor beggars to also work in my field if they want to.
They work one hour. I give them the same amount of money as i gave you.
You see it, you come to me, you are angry, you complain to me about it.
So… you are angry with me because i am merciful.
It was my field, my money and if i choose to be good to someone i can do so.
As per contract i have not harmed you in any way.

Choose what you want to be in life, merciful or UEBERMENSCH (and you know what this means, right?).


On March 19, 2008 at 12:50 pm

We pay Blizzard to “work” on WoW, this is what you’ve conveniently sidestepped. Gear is very little to do with the amount of “work” anyone does any more, WoW has become little more than a license to print money and Blizzard are rewarding everyone who makes them very, very wealthy with easy to obtain purple pixels in the hope those people will continue to fill their coffers.


On March 19, 2008 at 12:59 pm

I’m a hardcore player that is comfortable with the change, as it doesnt matter to me. I got attuned because I wanted to, and to progress further I had to. Now with MH on farm and over half of BT on farm, Im happy with the progression I have made thus far, even with a fulltime job, sports, GF, etc. We’d still like to get Illidan before too long, so that is what we are striving for.

What concerns me the most is Blizzard’s decision to open up PvE for the casual, but not Arena. Sure its okay for them to lift requirements for the PvE zones, but the elitists of the Arena-world still get their way with the rating requirements (which have only led to point-selling anyways, nice job Blizzard). As a hardcore PvE player who maybe gets to play 30-40 arena games a week, I usually see anywhere from 300-600 points a week on teams I have with friends and guildies. Because of that however, I may never see 1850 or 2000, which were put in place because the Elitists of the Arena world cried. I still have to spend several weeks getting all the gear to make myself better in Arena, so why not remove the rating requirement? Gear should be available to everyone, right? (Thats what they are saying here)

How is it fair to open up PvE (to the distress of a few people) yet not fair to open up Arena? Seems a little hypocritical to me. If you are going to do it for one area Blizzard, do it for all areas, otherwise dont change anything.


On March 19, 2008 at 3:06 pm

Earned, never given. People like to work for things, simple as that. The drive to get to the T6 instances is what makes the game enjoyable. If because a carebear player who just reached 70 and farmed his free epic gladiator gear thinks he can just walk though easymode heroics and get BT/Hyjal equivalent gear then what does this mean for the rest of the players who have earned it. There are players with 200 days invested in their characters which are sitting in t6 instances trying their hardest to complete their character while keeping themselves sane. Those few players on the server are what other players look up to… so why just give those “other players” the exact same thing for basically nothing?

It’s petty and the article seems biased. It’s blizzards way of showing they’re in it for the money, that’s all.


On March 19, 2008 at 3:17 pm

I for one am fond of the idea of not have to run attunements for Bt or Hyjal. As the leader of a very small, very new guild, we have enough issues trying to get enough people for Kara runs, much less 25-40 man raids. And given that I work 3rd shift, by the time my people do get on, I’m getting ready to leave. It makes it very difficult to get anything major accomplished.
That being said, I’m having more fun now than I have in a long time. My guild is small, but we’re all good friends. We’ve all done time in the larger raiding guilds, and basically got tired of “well, if you can’t show up every week at this time, then we can’t use you.” Sorry, but with 3 kids and a full time job, spending even 3 hours a night ingame usually doesnt happen.


On March 19, 2008 at 4:25 pm

I think a lot of people are oversimplifying a large list of problems with WoW into the hardcore vs casual here. I played this game since release and recently chose to stop due to the direction the game is going in.

First off this getting to see more content argument is a cop out. Lifting attunements alone would enable you to see more content. Gear handouts are not necessary for you to experience content, they are there just to make it easier and even then minimally so. The major block to people seeing raid content has always been the difficulty of organizing 25 people and getting them to work together well enough to be an encounter. Gear will not do that for you, if you’re that guy with 3 friends in game who plays for 2 hours once a week you still aren’t going to see Illidan. You could try joining a PuG for it but it’ll probably be an hour before you actually get enough people in the instance to kill anything. How on earth do you see this as providing the bulk of the casual crowd with access to more content?

The reason you aren’t seeing as much content is because it’s not being produced. When’s the last time you saw a new battleground or arena? How many dungeons have we actually gotten in TBC that weren’t promised since Blizzcon. Where’s that unique and cool looking armor set that shows you downed some of the most difficult content in game? It’s getting produced further and further apart. I’d love to see a 10 man T6 dungeon absolutely love to, but you won’t. It’s cheaper and easier to just throw some things onto a vendor for the same badges you can get clearing Karazhan and ZA. It’s the same thing with arena, while they’re finally putting some ratings on it so you can’t get absolutely everything just for showing up for 10 games a week there’s still not any real “content” being produced. Casuals should be getting more 10 mans, 5 mans and new BG/PvP BG’s. Has anyone watched some of the Blizzcon interviews with Christ Metzen? There’s a ton of lore and ideas that never got implemented into TBC. I doubt many if any raiders would have a problem with extra content for casual players. People do a great job about posting all these statistics for how many people are now playing this game, yet despite this huge increase in revenue you’re seeing an even slower development of content, doesn’t that strike you as the least bit odd?

Speaking of content being ignored, guess what is happening to regular old 5 mans now that epics are easily obtained in quest reward gear and attunements are being lifted? No one is running them. Look at that a whole tier of developed content with quests and storylines abandoned due to the rapid mudflation that is BC.

Badge rewards are just a nice way of giving people high quality loot for doing easier content. You can tell yourself you’ve earned them because hey 100 is a big number, but badges are getting increasingly easier to obtain. If you got your spellpower trinket back near BC release when heroics were really hellish you did a lot more work then it’s going to take get 150 badges in the game today. Now release level heroics were probably a bit too intimidating for a lot of players, but the point remains that with virtually every recent patch it becomes easier and easier to obtain a large number of badges.

In general though the biggest problem with all this is that is makes the game blaise. Things become less and less worth reaching for, your characters become less and less customized. This is what will inevitably kill the game, running around in the same arena killing the same people and farming the same 2 for badges for year will get old and the game will become increasingly linear. This is the real threat the game as a whole. Currently WoW has it pretty good as there’s not much real competition and it’s very popularity draws in more gamers looking play with people they know. However when something newer and more exciting comes out, if WoW keeps course it’s going to die. Very few people play a fantasy game to be mediocre, World of Cobblercraft wouldn’t have the same appeal does it?

Someone said something about raid content not being forgiving to mistakes. You’re absolutely right, it isn’t. But seriously go play TF2 and shoot blindly into a wall instead of at your opponent and see if it doesn’t effect you adversely. Crash your call into a wall in a racing simulator and see if you still win that race. I mean they’re games right? They can just make it so you win because they aren’t real, yet they don’t and won’t. A game becomes boring when you win all the time with minimal or no effort. That’s a rudimentary concept that strangely enough encompasses a number of different games and genres.

Lastly if you can only play an hour a night because you work long hours, have to spend time with a family and have a crappy commute. That’s your choice, there’s compromises in life. And that is a life issue that has nothing todo with the game. I’m sure you can’t conviently go climb a mountain in that short expanse of time either, if you enjoyed climbing you’d have to settle for a smaller rock. WoW provides the one thing it has an obligation to: OPPORTUNITY. For your 15 dollars you can access the same content as anyone else based upon what you paid. There’s some grounds for lifting attunements to lessen the time load and generally very few people argue against that, hell I could care less about it personally. But don’t push to totally trivialize backbone concepts like risk vs reward and effort vs reward. If you want a game that you can pay extra money in to get ahead there’s plenty of them out there. If you want a game where everyone is equal in ability regardless of time spent then don’t play an RPG. If you can’t bear to do group activities then hey the MMO market in general probably isn’t a great place for you to look now is it?

P.S: When did corporate interest become the same thing as customer interest anyways? I don’t own stock in Blizzard, do you Ron? If Blizzard makes a few million more dollars and I see less content developed because of it, it’s not benefitting me or other consumers a whole hell of a lot now is it. Good for the company does not always equate to good for the consumer.


On March 19, 2008 at 6:05 pm

I can’t help but believe Bliz is opening up the loot by dispensing with some of the attunements, as well as the gear being easier to get with badges being due to the release of WotLk. I’m of the idea that Bliz does not want to make the mistake they made in TBC with the nulifying of the hard won tier sets after only a few levels above 60. I’ll bet getting to level 80 and the gear that a Death Knight will need is going to make it really rough to just prance into Northrend and re-equip with the greens that will drop. We will most likely need the best gear we can get our hands on to even do +70 casual content.


On March 19, 2008 at 7:30 pm

I know i’ll likely be crucified by someone for my opinions, but i agree with the article. The elitist mentality shown by a percentage of hardcore raiders certainly is’nt conducive to a great community vibe, and let’s face it, WoW is at it’s core, a community-based game (hence the MMO genre description)

Removing insane attunement chains for high-end content with the intention of allowing more casual players access to these encounters can only be a positive step- as stated above, if the players attempting the instance aren’t well enough equipped or orgainised, they’ll likely fail, but holding onto these practices for the sake of allowing the top guilds bragging rights is insane when only a fraction of the player population will be able to lay their eyes on what, im sure, took several thousand hours of work to put together in the first place. Seems like a bit of a waste dont you think? Not to mention the logistical difficulty of putting a 40-man raid together in pre-BC days, or the frustration when only one of you can loot a unique quest item…

At any rate, if your’re in the first guild to empty out a raid encounter on your server, or worldwide for that matter, people WILL remember it. If you can clear these encounters out in world-class times, all the more power to you. But this shouldn’t keep less experienced (for lack of a better word) players from laying eyes on endgame content, and let’s face it, that’s where the game really gets interesting.


On March 19, 2008 at 7:50 pm

“I think a lot of people are oversimplifying a large list of problems with WoW into the hardcore vs casual here. I played this game since release and recently chose to stop due to the direction the game is going in.

First off this getting to see more content argument is a cop out. Lifting attunements alone would enable you to see more content. Gear handouts are not necessary for you to experience content, they are there just to make it easier and even then minimally so. The major block to people seeing raid content has always been the difficulty of organizing 25 people and getting them to work together well enough to be an encounter. Gear will not do that for you, if you’re that guy with 3 friends in game who plays for 2 hours once a week you still aren’t going to see Illidan. You could try joining a PuG for it but it’ll probably be an hour before you actually get enough people in the instance to kill anything. How on earth do you see this as providing the bulk of the casual crowd with access to more content?

The reason you aren’t seeing as much content is because it’s not being produced. When’s the last time you saw a new battleground or arena? How many dungeons have we actually gotten in TBC that weren’t promised since Blizzcon. Where’s that unique and cool looking armor set that shows you downed some of the most difficult content in game? It’s getting produced further and further apart. I’d love to see a 10 man T6 dungeon absolutely love to, but you won’t. It’s cheaper and easier to just throw some things onto a vendor for the same badges you can get clearing Karazhan and ZA. It’s the same thing with arena, while they’re finally putting some ratings on it so you can’t get absolutely everything just for showing up for 10 games a week there’s still not any real “content” being produced. Casuals should be getting more 10 mans, 5 mans and new BG/PvP BG’s. Has anyone watched some of the Blizzcon interviews with Christ Metzen? There’s a ton of lore and ideas that never got implemented into TBC. I doubt many if any raiders would have a problem with extra content for casual players. People do a great job about posting all these statistics for how many people are now playing this game, yet despite this huge increase in revenue you’re seeing an even slower development of content, doesn’t that strike you as the least bit odd?

Speaking of content being ignored, guess what is happening to regular old 5 mans now that epics are easily obtained in quest reward gear and attunements are being lifted? No one is running them. Look at that a whole tier of developed content with quests and storylines abandoned due to the rapid mudflation that is BC.

Badge rewards are just a nice way of giving people high quality loot for doing easier content. You can tell yourself you’ve earned them because hey 100 is a big number, but badges are getting increasingly easier to obtain. If you got your spellpower trinket back near BC release when heroics were really hellish you did a lot more work then it’s going to take get 150 badges in the game today. Now release level heroics were probably a bit too intimidating for a lot of players, but the point remains that with virtually every recent patch it becomes easier and easier to obtain a large number of badges.

In general though the biggest problem with all this is that is makes the game blaise. Things become less and less worth reaching for, your characters become less and less customized. This is what will inevitably kill the game, running around in the same arena killing the same people and farming the same 2 for badges for year will get old and the game will become increasingly linear. This is the real threat the game as a whole. Currently WoW has it pretty good as there’s not much real competition and it’s very popularity draws in more gamers looking play with people they know. However when something newer and more exciting comes out, if WoW keeps course it’s going to die. Very few people play a fantasy game to be mediocre, World of Cobblercraft wouldn’t have the same appeal does it?

Someone said something about raid content not being forgiving to mistakes. You’re absolutely right, it isn’t. But seriously go play TF2 and shoot blindly into a wall instead of at your opponent and see if it doesn’t effect you adversely. Crash your call into a wall in a racing simulator and see if you still win that race. I mean they’re games right? They can just make it so you win because they aren’t real, yet they don’t and won’t. A game becomes boring when you win all the time with minimal or no effort. That’s a rudimentary concept that strangely enough encompasses a number of different games and genres.

Lastly if you can only play an hour a night because you work long hours, have to spend time with a family and have a crappy commute. That’s your choice, there’s compromises in life. And that is a life issue that has nothing todo with the game. I’m sure you can’t conviently go climb a mountain in that short expanse of time either, if you enjoyed climbing you’d have to settle for a smaller rock. WoW provides the one thing it has an obligation to: OPPORTUNITY. For your 15 dollars you can access the same content as anyone else based upon what you paid. There’s some grounds for lifting attunements to lessen the time load and generally very few people argue against that, hell I could care less about it personally. But don’t push to totally trivialize backbone concepts like risk vs reward and effort vs reward. If you want a game that you can pay extra money in to get ahead there’s plenty of them out there. If you want a game where everyone is equal in ability regardless of time spent then don’t play an RPG. If you can’t bear to do group activities then hey the MMO market in general probably isn’t a great place for you to look now is it?

P.S: When did corporate interest become the same thing as customer interest anyways? I don’t own stock in Blizzard, do you Ron? If Blizzard makes a few million more dollars and I see less content developed because of it, it’s not benefitting me or other consumers a whole hell of a lot now is it. Good for the company does not always equate to good for the consumer.”

Best comment on this issue by far!


On March 19, 2008 at 8:47 pm

I think this article is as flawed as it think elitish attitude is.

there is a few things you really really overlook.
Games like wow only live as long as there is a living community around it, and the community is driven mostly by the small amount of hardcore raiders there is.
If you keep on dumbing raid instanceses and welfare epics for everyone, endless nerfs etc etc. you will somehow make the raiding community hollow, pushing away the hardcore, and after that the community and then its pretty much “game over” for any game.

Also i understand though why Blizzard is trying to do what they do, and for a fair amount its acceptable for all. But its still balancing on a knife’s edge, if they nerf to much to fast theyll loose way more in the long run than if they do it to slow, but both cases theyll lose in the long run.
The issue i see is mostly that the posts on forums is mostly complain post, and tbh i would guess that most casual players would like a fair challinge also, and with the endless nerfs to everything, you will end up with to easy stuff for ppl who just logs on now and then and want a 5 man, im sure most of those players dont really care about raid instances, and im also sure thats most of the player base when it even come to that.

what blizz could do for raiding would be make more 10 man for the mid range raiders.
also you could even make them for everyone.
a way of making an instance like ZA a great challinge would be to use the timed event. Make it so you could run it as a challinge instance, challinge anohter guild, first guild to kill the end boss would get a chest or something with some special loot (like the mount or whatevee).

That would make everyone happy. The hardcore player base could challinge each other, and rest of the ppl could still expirience the instance in there own pace as a normal 10 man or 5 man or whatever.

it aint hard to make something that fits all, but dont bend those who keep the community alive over and butt f**k them. Loot aint a right its something you earn.

Kraikee @ Silvermoon EU.


On March 20, 2008 at 1:04 am

The only issue I have with this entire issue of attunement drops and all the simple factor that while it opens up content to those that may not have been able to see it otherwise, it highly encourages that same crowd to skip the existing content. What self respecting guild will take time to learn the vashj or kael fights when there is no incentive other than the nifty ring you get from hyjal rep. At the very least blizzard is hypocritical on this point. They want their content to be seen, but at the same time, they are allowing (and encouraging) people to entirely bipass existing content.
That was one of my big problems with TBC was the entire bypass of level 60 content. They have yet to address the issue of no one EVER wanting to run level 60 instances (let alone raid instances) Obsolescence of their content is all well and good, but the amount that they did with TBC made it so that it was pure idiocy to ever go to the level 60 content again. Even something as simple as adding badges of justice to the old level 60 raid bosses would have made it worth trying to organize raids for. Making your own content obsolete before the next expansion however is a step too far I think.

The next point of contention is the fact that blizzard did TWO things to open up content. They removed the attunements (which is arguably the more comprehensive if cheaper solution) AND allowed guilds to go strait to vashj and kael. I believe the later would not cheapen the experience. As I see it, the main problem with the attunements was getting people to go to an instance that they need nothing from, and clearing for many hours just so they can kill 1 boss that people actually need stuff from. I believe guilds would have no problem attuning new people to go to hyjal (and by default BT) if the bosses were made accessable. Thats all that needed to be done.
I had the same thought when it came to lifting the TK and SSC attunements. They didnt have to be removed, just lessened slightly. Make them easier to get, but not really get done. So, for SSC move the quest NPC out of heroic SP, and leave the rest alone. For TK, require the person to have slain mag. Easy. MOving on up to hyjal/BT level attunes. Allow guilds to reach vashj kael without clearing (done) then move the BT quest NPC out of SSC. Anymore than that, allows bypass of content to an extreme that is not necessary.

Having the badge loot I am conflicted about. I do believe that it is nice to give people methods of getting something from instances that they may not really wish to run anymore. So, rewarding people for helping out their friends gearing up in kara, thats great. Making kara the PRIMARY method of getting badges is just wrong. Now, I know it would be faster (in number of weeks) to get badges from running heroics every day, but time invested, you cannot beat kara. If the badges rewarded scaled with difficulty, then it wouldn’t be too much of an issue. But ZA rewards such crap amount of badges.


On March 20, 2008 at 9:53 am

Wow. All I can say is wow. This change doesn’t dumb down WoW, but it does mean that more of the dumb people playing WoW will be able to look like they know what they’re doing. If you saw someone with SSC gear previously, you could at least be reasonably sure they had a clue. MH/BT gear? These people put in effort.

That’s the key word. Effort. I understand that it’s annoying and irritating and a whole other slew of things to see others have great gear when you may not have it. Go PvP for your epics, honestly. This change is only one in a line of changes that are reducing the reward compared to effort you put into the game. It’s a game, but if you want everything for free you wouldn’t be playing very long, would you? Go play Wolfenstein 3D with cheat codes again, please. This is ridiculous. As if TBC wasn’t easy enough as it is.


On March 20, 2008 at 2:47 pm

Anyone who says this game takes skill is full of it. With mods like deadly boss mods, hell even the solarian alarm mod. Really takes the guessing work out of encounters for the most part.



On March 20, 2008 at 7:48 pm

Wow is newbsauce, waiting for a game that takes skill instead of gear+button mashing. Darkfall online is coming someday, and when it does none of you newbs will play it cuz you’ll all be attuned to Naxx80 for free a month or two after the expansion because thousands of 13 year olds will cry on the forums that the quest to get in was too hard. Don’t get me wrong, I used to like the game but it’s a joke if you want skill based gameplay. It’s a decent “My First MMO!” but that’s about it.

Flame on :!:

TOp Jimmy

On March 20, 2008 at 8:22 pm

Why does anyone really care let blizzard do their job. So what if little johnny gets good loot, Is everyone so insecure with themselves that they need to be seen with better gear than the next guy. Go get the gear that you need to enjoy the parts of the game that you enjoy playing and have some fun playing WOW. I have seen some pretty cool stuff in this game at lower levels that I know most people don’t and its just because they are in such a hurry to get past it. It’s a game that we pay every month to play, that has no ending you can win some battles but not the war. So relax and enjoy as much of the content so you can get your monies worth.
Let’s face it in the real world having the best gear and being the best raider on WOW isn’t gonna get you laid at least not by the people that you really want


On March 21, 2008 at 12:27 am

As a ‘hardcore’ (3 nights a week is hardcore, I guess) who has been farming BT/Hyjal for quite some time now I don’t really see an issue with the badge gear/lifting of attunments. Sure, an argument can be made that without the metaphorical “carrot” of better gear/exclusive club, then there is less incentive to play, but I find that flawed for a couple of reasons.

1) Most raiders I know raid for content — to see lore, bosses, play with mechanics. The loot is a side benefit, and necessary in some cases to defeat newer monsters. There is nothing wrong with at least giving people that option, albeit on a delayed scale. Thankfully WoTLK will fix the problem of excluding casuals from major lore figures, or at least so they say.

2) Giving out BT/Hyjal qualityish gear for badges is quick and easy way to build up new players that you may need to progress in SWP. Granted the loot is not even on par with most BT/Hyjal stuff (although there are notable exceptions) . Most of the items are not ‘ideally budgeted’, although they have a similar ilevel. Still the gear is useful, but not “the best” in slot, giving those who obtained it something to work towards.

It also gives raiders who, for some reason or antother, have gotten unlucky with drops an alternative to use to tide them over. Have you ever walked into a capital city, and seen a raider in very impressive gear, and then wondered why they are still wearing [insert lowish level item here]. Now these raiders can fill those holes with decent drops, and now feel like they got screwed by the random number generator.

Trust me, raiding isn’t dying or going anywhere. People who still can’t do a heroic well or coordinate in a 25 man will not magically develop a brain and go kill any t6 level boss (except maybe Rage Winterchill :lol: Convsersly, the new bosses in SW25 are incredibly tough, so there will still be a lot for the really hardcore to play with. This opens up a new part of WoW to a lot of people who may otherwise miss it, and anything that introduces new players to the raiding community ultimately strengthens it. Get the gear, weed out the people that can’t preform, and move forward.


On March 21, 2008 at 6:21 am

Attunement Lift. Who cares. I seriously doubt any hardcore players with their epeens in check would. On the plus side, it’ll be easier to bring alts to BT. :) The only real negative impact it’ll have on BT guilds is they’ll get flooded by a deluge of apps from people with inadequate raiding experience. Not a big deal tho, as these guilds can continue to cherry-pick people with whatever raiding experience they deem appropriate. I guess it makes it a little easier for people to lie and try to weasel their way into guilds by saying they’ve killed Kael and Vashj… but with due dilligence in recruitment, it isn’t too hard to spot a bull artist before they start slowing down your raids.

Badge Gear. Here’s the simple truth about badge gear: it’s a perpetual carrot to keep people interested in running instances over and over, even after they’ve gotten all the loot they want from said instances. It doesn’t bring non-raiders to an equal playing field with raiders – not even close. Even semi-hardcore players know that gear doesn’t mean win. Sure it allows room for a little more error but here’s what I consider to be at least as important factors to a successful raid:
1) Skill. (reflexes, multi-tasking ability, focus level, decision-making)
2) Knowledge. (how to play your class, boss strats, what mods/UI to use, etc)
3) Leadership. (at a guild level, class level, and raid level)
4) Dedication. (willingness to read a boss strat, to come prepared with consumables, the patience to wipe for nights on end, to farm gold for repairs/chants/gems/etc)
5) Communication. (articulating – and listening to – tactics, calling out contingencies on the fly, asking questions when clarification is needed, knowing when to keep TS/vent clear)

I’m not saying gear isn’t essential, just that better badge gear won’t get bad players into good guilds. It should, however, help struggling guilds to continue along the crest (or prehaps trailing edge) of the progression wave. Awesome for them! Be ready for some bloated repair bills and a huge anti-climax when you get to the last 3 bosses of BT.

Content nerfs. The OP didn’t really touch on this but this is what irks me. Not because I’m worried that people will have an easier time getting purplez than their predecessors, but rather because it’s a shame that guilds with a late start will only have the opportunity to see watered down content, NOT the content that the designers originally built.


On March 21, 2008 at 6:44 am


I think that the whole discussion’s center is this.

It seems that some ppl has to play WoW to get other ppl talking about them, well i can understand this pow cause i’m an ex-raider, and when u are in a top guild is nice to hear ppl talking about ur guild ur progress etc…btw probably the majority of the ppl arent in a raiding guild, or cant join one cause being in a raiding guild is rly time requiring, and not everyone has the possibility to spend 4-5 hours x day playing WoW.
So, imho, everyone should be able to obtain the same gears and items, ppl playing more should be able to acquire those stuff faster, ppl playing less , slower, but everyone should be able to obtain the same gears\items, otherwise the game become rly frustrating for casual gamers, that even if they are good players, they keep to see they character only as a mid-lvl character for their whole WoW game experience.
Play and have fun, but also let the other play and have fun…
So u got ur imba gears and now u wanna one-click everyone just cause u spent a lot of time with it…well actually the game would begun boring in this way, if there’s no challenge there’s no game at all…


On March 21, 2008 at 10:10 am

the dumbing down of WoW is esseitially the same crap we as a society have to observe today. Everybody gets a riboon, or trophy, or medal. There is no best, everybody is special. Forget the time and effort you put into the game to actually see content. You deserve it. As for those who say that it doesnt take skill and that hardcore raiders simply put more time in..that argument is flawed. I cant wait to listen to the whining when undergeared/underskilled guilds enter Hyjal and BT. But the attitude is that you paid for the game so you should see it.
A few weeks after 2.4 hits, people will start complaining that the waves of mobs in Hyjal and the bosses in BT are too complex and difficult so they should be adjusted…and Blizz will. Sunwell will soon follow with the nerfbat as well.


On March 21, 2008 at 4:23 pm

Well, where do I start? I guess very few of you will remember when WoW was in development that Blizzard said from the very start that they wanted to make a game that was more assessable and easier for people to play. At that time, games like DAOC and EQ were the big MMO’s. And those games compared to what WoW is now were very user un-friendly. I think they may have even used the words, “entry level” mmo. I know this is going to hurt some of your feelings out there but World of Warcraft is not a hard game. It’s easy to pickup, understand and play. Exactly what Blizzard wanted and the main reason behind their stellar success.

I’ve been lucky for most of the game, I got to clear BWL, AQ40, Naxx and now HJ and BT, soon, Sunwell. I’ve been around enough guildies in the 3 guilds I was / currently in to see most have an attitude about their gear. And, it has always bothered me. For a long time, I’ve always thought Blizzard should speed up the progression so ALL can enjoy the story Blizzard wants to tell.

I think a lot of the changes we are seeing now with 2.4 is to do exactly with this. To speed the game up so they can tell their story to a much larger audience. I doubt very seriously we will see badge vendors in the new expansion like this, handing out top tier level gear. But, I believe it does lay the ground work for them making attunements easier, perhaps 1 quest. We may also see more 10 mans like Kara, instead of one ten man, we may get two or three. Time will tell. Regardless of what they do, it’s a change many will welcome.

There is also the whole business side to this you have to take into account if you truly want to understand these changes. A good example would be like the movie business. Studios make more money if their movies carry a PG-13 rating, they also make more money at the box office if their movie is around an hour and a half. The same thing applies to Blizzard and WoW and their expansions. I do not know the exact numbers but Blizzards 1st expansion was a huge huge money maker for them. It could still in fact be the number one selling PC title of 2007. I am willing to guess and I think many business savy people out there will agree, that Blizzard wanted to release their 2nd expansion much much sooner than they will end up getting to do. I think they were forced to push things back and open up the game to more people in order to get their story told and not have it wasted on a handful of guilds that could organize raids better than the rest.

You are going to see in the new expansion a lot more people being able to progress faster, have more fun and feel as if they are getting their monies worth. The very small percentage of guilds who organize raids extremely well will end up getting the content done faster. And I can live with that.


On March 22, 2008 at 4:50 am

40 man sucked, 25 man sucks too, 5 man is more fun, why not ultra hard and progresive 5 man? you can tell a epic tale with lots of lore in 5 man and could be so fun


On March 22, 2008 at 8:52 am

The very small percentage of guilds who organise raids extremely well are the ones that Blizzard seem to be catering to with their new content pace. Along with the crowd of casuals who just want high quality gear for nothing.

The losers caught somewhere in the middle of this are the large number of quality players in semi- guilds who don’t spend their entire waking life playing or thinking about WoW. The only thing the truly hardcore guilds have an edge in their religious content crusade, is the ruthlessness and weeding out of retards who most normal guilds will happily carry. That and that they spend their entire lives on-line.

The reason the vast majority of decent guilds miss out is because they don’t get to experience the content fast enough for it to be a fully worthwhile investment of time/effort/reward and also in some cases they only get to content after the nerf bat has been swung.

A 5-man Karazhan sized instance or two would be superb and fill a big gap in the game imo. Free gear is just utterly boring unless you’re the pathetic type who thinks WoW is just about purple pixels.


On March 22, 2008 at 11:10 am

i just wonder isnt it a cliche when someone says “i would be better than u if i have played as much as you do”.

Why dont u try that nab? have u tried that in RL? Ever?! dont u know that your will isnt allways sufficent for success? i think you should definetly stop playing wow, because this type of game simply is not ment to be saved and loaded, its a struggle, but rewarding struggle, while RL can be so much of a struggle, and at the same time non-rewarding struggle.
And yea…stop comparing wow ppl to rl ppl, its not discussion about that, its discussion about making some sort of smarter instance balance.

Tbh 100 badges means 100 boss kills on heroic dificulty for pure casual gamers ( no kara, not more than 5 man’s ), so gear up m8, u will get your 750 badges to be geared up like some mh/bt dude in no time….and yes…GL m8!

and the last point i have is, why make instances so difficult at 1st, that only rly dedicated/crazy ppl can cope with them…it is like making them test bunnys or something, give easy instances, study how they are done, and make NEW ones, and make their rewards appropriate. so bt ppl can be bt ppl, and others can have their way according to skill/time they can put in it…it is not unfair to them, nor it is to those who decide to make it a more serious hobby.
I dont get it why should everyone see bt??? why?? why should i experience fallout 2 ending without playing it till the end? i mean, there is more in life than money, blizzard made 5 titles that should make the money objective at least lower than 1st on list, at least thats my point of view.

Anyways, top guilds, pvp or pve make premades, so if u are pugging u wont even meet such low-life no-life no-girl no-sex no-fun no-nothing ppl in game


On March 23, 2008 at 5:45 pm

I’d just like to pick up the many elitist’s comments about t6 level BoJ gear. There is going to be a pair of pants, boots, chest and belt if i remeber correctly. O and a weapon. All of which cost 100 BoJ’s barring the belt(?) which is 75 and a weapon which is 150, or two weapons which amount to 150 (MH at 105 and OH at 45). Ok so say someone does think go on ill try and skipp all raids, jut get blues for heroics and get these BoJ gear. Thats a total of 525 BoJ’s. 525 BoJ’s. Do you realise how long it would take a casual gamer to get that amount of BoJ’s? a casucal gamer with crap gear trying heroics might do (for arguments sake) one bot run a night for 5 easy BoJ’s. thats 105 fricking nights. 105 fricking nights spending 1-2 hours on a fricking game. 105 fricking nights, spending 1-2 hours a day on a fricking game for 5-6 fricking epics and whatever crappy epics from heroics and the rest blues. YAH THEY CAN PROBS DO SUNWELL QQ (sarcasm). It would take less time to do bt and gear up that way and actually get more gear that way. Point is BoJ gear doesnt mean “every noob can raid” as it wont give a full set of gear for someone, even if someone was sad enough to spend there time doing heroic after heroic. they cos a lot of badges so the only people that will ever have nearly enough BoJ’s are the people progressing through raids like kara and ZA up to ssc/tk to bt/mh. its just there to fill gaps for people who have spent enough time doing heroics and raids and accumulated boj’s. EVEN if someone did get all 2.4 BoJ gear through 105 bot runs is a bleeding achievment worth noting! lol.

k i think i rambled a bit there and lost track of what i was saying, it makes sense in my head tho :mrgreen:

ps i just remebered rings and necklaces…but still thats even more runs and that and extends the amount of BoJ’s needed. My point still remains, no casual player will ever have full 2.4 BoJ gear. never. its more likely for a greened out huntard tame gruul as a pet.


On March 24, 2008 at 12:31 am

Personally I dont mind Blizzard is opening content for casual players, however I want the game to cater hardcore players needs as well. In a name of fairness, you know :cool:

Zul Aman is a good example of what I’m talking about – nowadays everyone and their mother can go and PuG it, in the other hand you need a well-organized team and perfect execution of all fights, trash included, for a timed run. See? Same content, same rewards, 2 different playstyles!

Heroic vs Normal is also a good thing – casuals can find enough thrill in doing normal mode, while hardcores can push the game to the limits (ok, *could* do it before mass-nerfs :roll: ) in heroics.

I hope Blizzard will create more of similar challenges in future – different modes, timed runs, and other additional objectives for us, hardcores to cater our e-peens :roll:


On March 25, 2008 at 12:57 am

yeah, they are making the game less gear based. someone said this waaaaay up there on the thread somewhere. but thats the best point. I am glad that they are makin it less gear based (if that is truly their intention, which is seems it is). I mean since BC came out ive seen mroe people wearing full epics now than i ever did pre-BC. As I understand it, the hardcore guys dont like that people have gear as good as them or that they actually care how others spend thier time in the game to make thier characters that they pay to play the best they can(which is silly). Its best for everyone, casual and hardcore, that gear become less important. now everyone can spend mroe time getting the strategy on a boss down and coordinating fights. It gets people up to speed quicker and you can recruit anyone with no real worries about thier gear but their skill as a player of the game(if they suck, just boot em, its not that hard to).

the only real complaint that is even viable for raiders is the badge rewards, which I have baisically awnsered with the above. Its best for everyone. now for the pvp/arena gear, you dont need to worry about them. that gear sucks for raiding and most who get the good stuff aint gonna come or want to come to your raids. there are alot of people who find raiding boring and thats why they pvp. there are strats for beating diff classes as your class and beating your class (read wow forums). and winning in bgs/arenas requires strats as well, but with the added variable of the enemy doing something you didnt expect which is part of what makes it great and difficult. so for the pvpers who do wander into your raid, they are fully aware of the concept of strategies and plans of attack.

To the idea that raiding gives a since of accomlishment and has(or as some would argue had) a grad or epic feel to it, id have to say that so does every other accomplishment that people make, in real life and in games. one of the best memories i have is of me fighting it out with a t6/s3 wearing orc hunter and a druid. i was slighty less geared than him but i had a druid with me as well. this fight lasted for a good 5-10 mins until i miraculously won though it was more of a stalemate i guess because we both died from the fight (i got popped by a rogue when i had only 100 health left). nothing felt more grand and epic than that fight. and the since of accomplishment i had when i stood up against a guy with better gear than me and held my own was wonderful.

so the fact that i could hold my own proves that it is true that blizz is making gear less of an issue. and it also proves that skill is most definitely becomng more important in succeeding in the game. is that a bad thing? besides, everyone wants their toon to look cool i think thats why alot of people play.


On March 25, 2008 at 5:23 am

Who cares about black temple and hyjal, its all a joke compared to anything pre BC, any body posting about how bad this new patch is because it cheapens their ‘in game’ achievements no longer plays for fun. All the decent WoW players that have been playing since release and actually still enjoy playing are cruising around nagrand in their pvp gear ganking while you look for another forum to e-cry on cause ur tier 6 is getting rusty. Uninstall Life.


On March 29, 2008 at 7:35 am

I almost don’t want to dignify this article with a post… It’s worthless trash from a an author who has his head so far up his own ass it’s not funny.

I am going to keep it short and sweet – I couldn’t care less if there were no attunements from the start. But the fact they keep slapping the hardcore who muscle through and have to do that stuff and THEN remove the attunement.. time after time… is what bugs us.

If they are going to have no attunements, fine. But if they ARE going to have attunements LEAVE THEM THERE FOREVER so everyone has to achieve the same objectives to get the same progress!!

It’s simple – they ARE dumbming it down by removing them after the fact for the “slower” players.

AGain this article is trash.


On March 29, 2008 at 7:36 am

And for got sakes can you delete the keylogger posts off of this page you lazy piece of ?


On March 29, 2008 at 7:42 pm

T6 level badge items does not a BT raider make.

The badges and the lifting of attunements will make it easier for guilds already in BT and MH to gather together a raiding team. Hell, people who have had Illidan on farm for months can now bring their alts into the raids without their guilds having to go back to Vashj and Kael to get them attuned.

I feel a bit sorry for the people out there who did want to get attuned to BT/MH the old way, and that it’s now been trivialized in a sense. You’d still get the “Hand of A’dal” title if you did it – just so that you’d have a way to prove to other players that you accomplished it, but guilds in general may be less inclined to kill those bosses now that they’re skippable.

The patch hasn’t nerfed BT/MH, they’re not suddenly trivial instances. Karazhan guilds can’t exactly waltz into those instances and clear them unless they’ve got ALOT of skill, and if they had alot of skill they’d have probably gotten attuned already. The reason hardcore guilds exist is because they have to dedicate that much time per week to practicing the bosses, or they’ll never learn. It doesn’t even take a lot of skill, just tireless practice and getting used to the mechanics of a fight, which almost anyone can manage eventually. Unfortunately not everybody has the luxury of dedicating 4 hours per night to raiding, and that pretty much locks them out unless they manage to find a high-end raiding guild that only raids twice per week, and those ARE rare.

Plus, raiders will benefit from the badges – I raid 5 nights a week, I’m progressing through BT/MH (yes, I got attuned before 2.4) and I welcome the new badge loot, it might add a nice item or two to my gear. Raiders whining about the badges are missing the point. Wearing badge loot isn’t going to look as impressive as wearing full tier 6, because every player knows that you have to be doing the hardest dungeons in-game for T6 whereas badges can be farmed from any heroic or raid. But the badge loot can give people a boost or a bit of an advantage. There’s no reason for any raider to feel threatened by it.


On April 5, 2008 at 6:06 am

Theres a lot of things about this patch that are good and bad. I like that they added T6 equivalent gear for badges. They aren’t cheap in any way and will still take a while to aquire, especially for casual gamers. People on the hardcore have been complaining about trivializing their efforts by removing attunements and providing badge gear. The fact is the casual gamer will still not really get to see the content like you did. And by the time they do the next expansion will be nearing it’s release. I’d be more pissed off at the PvP aspect of the game right now, but that’s another rant.
My main concern is that the harder instances in this game are put in mainly FOR the hardcore gamers. The casual gamer will unlikely see most of this content and were never really expected to. Back before TBC, there was a bit of awe when you saw people in battlegrounds in High Warlord gear or carrying around Ashkandi, or later on Naxx gear. That has almost completely gone now, with gear being handed out through PvP and arena gear. The mystique of the game is slipping away as gear is simply handed out rather than earned through tireless efforts.
With the new badge gear being basicly on par with BT loot, what incentives do people really have to go there anymore? when you can run the lower instances and get badges faster to get the badge gear, there’s no point in banging your head against a wall to try and down a boss when you can spend tokens and get something just as good. Let’s face it, the main reason most people do the higher end dungeons are to get gear, and when you can do much easier ones faster and come out of it with essentially similar gear, why bother even exploring the high content? The gear is a reward for time and effort and it’s no longer scaling that way. A lot of the gear earned through these instances are not worth the effort put forth to justify it with how things are going,


On June 6, 2008 at 2:13 pm

@ all of you…
Go outside!


On July 5, 2008 at 2:00 am

What baffles me is the idea that a hard core gamer is someone with no life or ambitions. I have been playing video games since 1986 when I was old enough to handle the controller and I have been playing MMO’s for about 13 years. But also. I served six years in the Navy, been married, coach childrens athletics, go to school full time and have wonderful friends in and out side of games oh and I work.

For many video games are a hobby just as some, spend money and time on cars, sports, traveling and a lot of other hobbies. The idea of it being lame to seek accomplishment in a video game is flawed. There are a number of professional video game leagues in the US and in Korea video gamers are the among the highest payed professsional entertainers/athlets even. Its a fact that video games are going to over take the Movie industry in revenue in the near future. Is everyone who collects tons of DvD’s a looser with no life?

Now as for the topic, I quit WOW months ago and I am happily suffering through the early stages of AoC. 1 month and my guild is already doing the first raid in all its bugged glory. I raided maybe 3 nights a week at about 3-4 hours and when I quit WoW and my guild had downed Illi for the second time. It felt good to get on at night with people I had been gaming with for a long time and defeat those difficult challenges. While I think the vast majority should be open to everyone, I believe that the most skilled and dedicated should be rewarded for their efforts. IF that makes those people elite or exclusivce then so be it. Not everyone makes it to Div 1 and even less make the transition to the NFL. Yet every sunday I see people in my neighborhood out throwing the football casually and I dont hear them ing that they are not getting payed big bucks to do so. Some would say theres no comparisson, but there are proffessional WoW pvp teams who get payed to play.

We all play games for fun and throughout the history of gaming those most skilled have been rewarded for their efforts in all styles of games. I think what blizzard is doing is wrong. I could see maybe making the Badge gear T5. T5 isnt that hard anyway. But it really does completley strip away the value of what other players have achieved. So what its only 4% of the player base. They are the top 4% and should be rewarded for that. Maybe you are just as skilled as that player, but they devote the time and effort to show that they are that good and should be rewarded for it. You dont like it play more. As for casual players. Good for you. I am glad your going to get to enjoy some of the higher content that you would never have experienced if blizzard didnt nerf the game. But your just that, casual gamers. So dont chastise the hard core becuase they are upset that your getting a hand out by comparrison. They earned it, you didnt. But now you get your chance. I just hope blizzard is kind enough to raise the bar for the hardcore gamers soon so they have something to look forward to. Hell they earned it. The fall of any great MMO starts from the top. So when that top 4% leaves more will follow. Just ask Sony.

Blizzard had the right approach with ZG and AQ20. Raids for everyone. Isnt that also what Heroics were meant to be? Rewards for casual gamers? Then arena gear? Anyone can get that stuff. You dont even have to be good. Hell I have 5 manned Kara. So thats for anyone too.

-Harcore Gamer.

wow gold

On August 27, 2008 at 4:44 pm

Blizz has got to find new and better ways to make the game last longer in interesting matters rather than adding new dungeons and forcing you to farm and equip your items over again. They should really put in a better pvp system which provides a better reward.


On August 30, 2009 at 7:47 am

Well here we are in August 2009 and Blizz has announced they are removing: Defense, Spell power, Shield Block, etc. Now it will be strictly cloth, leather, mail, plate and you dont have to even think about stats. Garbage. This is when MMOs start going down the tubes. When a guy can log in for the first time ever and in a month pwn people who have been playing and balancing/managing stats for 3-5 years. Serious garbage. I think its a mistake and I think blizz is going to lose loyal players for the “sign up for a few months and then hop to another MMO” crowd……


On August 19, 2010 at 5:43 am

Loot was never made me feel superior to anyone. It was just proof you were able to work with and manage 24 other people in a raid. Something to be proud of, overcoming a challenge.

But in Cataclysm you can get the same loot in 10 and 25 mans. So now it will be impossible to get a 25 man raid together.

Whats next for WoW?
Playable through Facebook?
One button, context sensitive spell casting?

World of Farmville 2012!


On June 26, 2012 at 6:26 pm

This is bullcrap! the harcore players deserve the gear for the dedication they added to it. If you want to see content then dedicate more time! Having the gear meant something to be pround of because you had to work for it and now it’s handed out like candy. Cheats them out of everything they worked for.


On September 25, 2013 at 4:57 pm

“Don’t Worry, Blizzard Isn’t Dumbing Down World of Warcraft” Well Four years has passed, and YOU’RE WRONG. The game has progressively Streamlined (a marketing PR term that means dumb down) with every new addition.


On September 28, 2013 at 12:23 am

I believe everyone should see all the content of the game. Its the reason they are paying 15 bucks a month. But for Hardcore raiders there rewards should be like what they do in PVP. They should get exclusive armor sets, mounts etc, something that tells other players that they are the top of the game.