Editorial: Beware the Child-Man?

men.jpgRecently NPR (National Public Radio) featured a segment during its Talk of the Nation program with Kay Hymowitz, a writer and lecturer regarding her recent Op Ed piece from City Journal that was cut down and run in a recent Dallas Morning News Sunday Editorial space. Hymowitz espoused her view that something had changed in our society with young men. Something had allowed them to become less driven to fulfill the traditionally defined role of a male adult – namely marriage and procreation – instead she claimed young men in the 20s and 30s were delaying true adulthood and commitment favoring instead the proliferation of media like Maxim magazine, 24 hour cartoon channels and video games.

Hymowitz dubbed this new generation of young men with the derogatory title “Child-men”, saying that because of their attraction to these entertainment forms and their seeming lack of strong commitment skills that we had a maturity gap emerging within society. Young men were no longer rushing to the altar or marrying childhood sweethearts and she seems to place the cause of this on games for one. These “Child-men” came to light because she had spoken with a number of young women and these ladies had decried the lack of good candidates for marriage on the traditional timescale.

Now I won’t refute that there has been a change in our society. I won’t argue that people (male and female) seem to be entering into traditional adulthood later with the average of married men aged 30 dropping 27% in the last 30 years, but I think she is examining the results not the causes and placing blame in the wrong place.

Do young men spend 2-3 hours an evening playing video games? Statistically yes, the rise in game play has said as much. Are they doing this in addition to the other “traditional” activities like watching sports or network television? The numbers say they are not. So instead of being the great catalyst of the man-slacker as she infers, I think we’re seeing a transition in the leisure activities and their content.

Hymmowitz writes:

Not so long ago, the average mid-twentysomething had achieved most of adulthood’s milestones—high school degree, financial independence, marriage, and children. These days, he lingers—happily—in a new hybrid state of semi-hormonal adolescence and responsible self-reliance. Decades in unfolding, this limbo may not seem like news to many, but in fact it is to the early twenty-first century what adolescence was to the early twentieth: a momentous sociological development of profound economic and cultural import.

Why is it bad to entertain aspects of childhood in adults? Must becoming an adult be all about responsibility and social pressure and nothing of fun? It seems to me she is judging the behaviors of a generation beyond her with the standards that no longer apply or are in flux. She says to put down the toys and accept your role but why is there no discussion of accepting your role and enjoying the toys along with that? She seems to indicate that these are unrelated possibilities.. that to be a full member of the community you must marry and have children because men do not engage in or become useful to society otherwise.. which seems a narrow view to me and one I see broken in my friends and acquaintances all the time.

fear2.jpgI can speak from personal experience here about the changes in society toward marriage and adulthood. I was married at 18, I had my first child by 21. I was a social pariah for many years and both my wife and I suffered social backlash because we had taken a more traditional route to adulthood. Many of our friends waited until their 30s to even begin dating and having children. Sometimes merely because they felt societal pressure to be successful instead of happy. They placed the drive to be professionals and career focused on the top of the pile before becoming family oriented. In fact it often feels like in this day and age there is a stigma against those who marry young. The change in society is often attributed to the ’80s generation and their career obsession. This has become accepted to a large extent – especially when you consider that those same career obsessed yuppies waited until their mid-30s and beyond to procreate and “embrace adulthood” by Hymowitz’s definition.

Single Young Males, or SYMs, by contrast, often seem to hang out in a playground of drinking, hooking up, playing Halo 3, and, in many cases, underachieving. With them, adulthood looks as though it’s receding.

We see her proclaim that young men needed to put down the controller and grow up. Why is the controller the catalyst here? Isn’t it a good thing that men in society are stepping back from the burden of responsibility that drove many of our forefathers to an early grave and enjoying the fruits of our labor while we labor? Doesn’t this lead to happier men with longer lives because they are not resentful and angry at the responsibilities thrust upon them artificially by a society driving them to reproduce and become cogs in the social wheel?

sexncity.jpgWhy is her ire so squarely focused on men and not women as well? Are these trends any different from the activities of young women who are often unwilling to surrender personal freedoms to be “shackled” by motherhood? The Sex and the City generation who see marriage as an anchor and drag on their personal lives, who embrace disposable relationships and are obsessed with designer clothing?

I think she is only looking at half the equation and drawing erroneous conclusions. She mentions that underachieving is a mark of these “Child-men” but I wonder if she’s using the same scale of achievement as the people she’s analyzing. Maybe we’re seeing a backlash in this generation after living with parents who were so focused on money and personal accomplishment that children were often a check in the box rather than the center of the family’s focus.

Hymowitz also equates the stunted Child-man growth with the emergence and popularity of Maxim and social comedies featuring immature male characters in the vein of The Forty-Year Old Virgin and Knocked Up, but it is her focus on video games that of course is relevant to this editorial.

Nothing attests more to the SYM’s growing economic and cultural might than video games do. Once upon a time, video games were for little boys and girls—well, mostly little boys—who loved their Nintendos so much, the lament went, that they no longer played ball outside. Those boys have grown up to become child-man gamers, turning a niche industry into a $12 billion powerhouse. Men between the ages of 18 and 34 are now the biggest gamers; according to Nielsen Media, almost half—48.2 percent—of American males in that age bracket had used a console during the last quarter of 2006, and did so, on average, two hours and 43 minutes per day. (That’s 13 minutes longer than 12- to 17-year-olds, who evidently have more responsibilities than today’s twentysomethings.) Gaming—online games, as well as news and information about games—often registers as the top category in monthly surveys of Internet usage.

grandmasboyposterlarge.jpgUnfortunately it is with statements like this that Hymowitz shows her cultural bias. She is of a generation before the proliferation and acceptance of gaming as an adult recreation. She admits that in her world view games are a child’s play activity. But the same considerations be said of the Television and its impact on children who grew up during the “Wonder Days” generations of the 50s and 60s.

We see entertainment forms change between generations and society adapts. Today most people would laugh if you tried to claim that it was silly for an adult to stop listening to the news on the radio and move over to the television set. We are simply seeing the transition of recreation and the acceptance of video games as a medium for recreation for all ages – just as we accept that fact when we examine television viewing.

Ironically, Hymowitz concludes her editorial with something that bothers me more than it likely should. She claims that Child-men are unable to form long term commitments… but isn’t that a long standing cultural stereotype? The man afraid to commit? How is it related to this latest social crisis? Responsibility is not generally something that comes without pressure and expectations. Then she wraps it all up in broad generalities that honestly apply to both men and women in modern society:

The SYM doesn’t read much, remember, and he certainly doesn’t read anything prescribing personal transformation. The child-man may be into self-mockery; self-reflection is something else entirely.

That’s too bad. Men are “more unfinished as people,” Kunkel has neatly observed. Young men especially need a culture that can help them define worthy aspirations. Adults don’t emerge. They’re made.

Unfortunately, there is some truth in this – literature is not the common entertainment form of this generation – video games, television and the Internet are. However, I don’t think the lack of “Less than Zero” being a cultural icon of the generation’s culture reflects a lack of self-reflection.

Men and women in the 20s and 30s all face the same harsh realization and reflection regarding their role in society, their personal goals, hopes and dreams – they just are not happening on the old timescale. We are healthy and prosperous as a society. Men and women are living much longer than even two generations ago because of healthcare advances and societal changes, isn’t it natural that these stages of growth would expand?

I don’t think any generation can sit in judgment on the former or the later with a fair eye. Our society is evolving exponentially as we deal with technological changes at an accelerating rate and it is pressures like that which force us to adapt on a scale unseen at any other point in human history.

Is there really a “Child-man” problem or is this more broad than Hymowitz suggests?

sources: NPR: “Young Men Stuck in Adolescent-Adult Limbo?” ,City Journal: “Child-Man in the Promised Land”

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135 Comments on Editorial: Beware the Child-Man?

William

On January 30, 2008 at 10:33 am

As a 30 year-old male and member of Generation X, I’d have to say that video games have nothing to do with our apparent lack of early success. As a generation, I truly believe that when we turned 18, there simply weren’t the options of old.

Back in the old days, to be a success, you would go to college when you were 18, get a good job when you were 22 and things would roll from there. I know college grads now who work as clerks at 7-11.

The real problems lie with the fact that we were basically handed a society that had already used up most of it’s resources through greedy actions. For the most part, young men today don’t even know what their roles in society should be.

Economics has a lot to do with the current issues with young men not “achieving”. I’m not saying this is a bad thing, but women in the workplace is a big factor. There are more women working these days, which means that there are less jobs available for men. I completely support the idea of equality, but there’s a cost to equality.

Unfortunately, her views on the topic are very narrow. There are hundreds of factors that are causing this.

William

On January 30, 2008 at 10:37 am

I’m also not sure how she considers a “high-school degree” as a milestone. lol

Jose

On January 30, 2008 at 10:54 am

I recently spoke with Bruce Shankle (Previous Red Storm Developer and now Senior Software Development Engineer on the DirectX team at Microsoft) at a game convention and we just chit chatted on the subject of college and entering the work force.

He basically gave me this scenario. Going to college is not a guarantee to big money and success. Having a college degree just tells an employer that if they give you instructions on how to do something, that you can comply and complete the task. He said that it’s people who know what they want and are unique in doing something. Most people that make these huge sums of money were likely college dropouts.

If you are good at something and you put your passion to the grinding stone and don’t let anyone stand in your way then your possibilities are endless.

I am 23, I work as a graphic designer and I live comfortably in my home. I have nice stuff and a lovely wife. I like to play video games yes, but it does not consume the entirety of my life. Even before I left my parents home when I was 20 I still played a lot of video games. But I did also go to college for a 2 year degree so it would be easier to get my first real job.

I think it all comes down to responsibility and how you manage your life. So to close my long winded rant… lol. I would completely say that it’s ok to be a “child-man” if that’s what society wants to call us. But just don’t let the child take over completely :)

William

On January 30, 2008 at 11:13 am

@Jose: I like how you say it’s ok to be a “child-man”. I was thinking more on this and perhaps we just like to stay young and have fun, which may not have been acceptable in the past. I do think the younger people in this country are more open-minded than in the past and we tend to be more accepting of what people do. I never care what other people do when they enjoy it as long as they aren’t hurting me.

Ldysabella

On January 30, 2008 at 11:20 am

@William – I completely agree. You could write a book or two about why our society has changed, but this woman has chosen to ignore most of these factors or even that societal expectations have changed at all. I would say her position is very antiquated.

Young men and women are competing for the small handful of decent jobs available. It also usually takes more than one income to comfortably raise a family.

Divorce rates show the wisdom of waiting to marry and have children. Those who marry young have a very high divorce rate, while the statistics are much lower for those who wait until at least 28 to make the commitment. There are always exceptions, but the average here shows that it’s better for young people to put off marriage.

Fenris

On January 30, 2008 at 11:23 am

Sex and the City should have a subtitle called “Even when it is obviously my fault it is my man’s fault”. How about we call this what it, blatant sexism. If as a woman you defend this paper (the child-man paper) you don’t have a leg to stand on.

Like the reviewer, I do agree changes have been made in society, but the writer fails to acknowledge that men are less interested in marriage a for a number of reasons, including the fact that if it does not work out, divorce laws are unjustly skewed towards women (a result, I assume of when divorces started to sky rocket in the 70′s and a lot of women didn’t have a means to provide for themselves, which is not the case anymore). As well, what about the tons of couples who live together but don’t get married and finally don’t forget that just as many women are not very interested in marriage.

Another point is, who is the author to tell me or other men what our role is? Is this not what women have railed against for years? When you are so full of BS its hard to bother with a response, but I thought I had to say something.

somewhat

On January 30, 2008 at 11:39 am

Maybe we should marry by the age of fourteen like some other countries. Then she could call me a child-man. I’m just a man that enjoys life. Sorry that seems to have her unmarried, but I married anyways, when we were both ready, and divorce doesn’t seem to be in our future because of it.

ManOfTeal

On January 30, 2008 at 12:47 pm

I’m 30, after 8 years being together, I married my high-school sweetheart when I was 25. I’m still happily married with two beautiful kids. Oh yeah and I happen to be quite into video games. I also graduated from a four year college in 2000 with a degree in Management Information Systems and I am currently the Senior Systems Consultant for an IT company in the Atlanta area. WTF is up with this Child-man thing again?

John

On January 30, 2008 at 3:10 pm

Kay, you are an idiot.

gross assumption on my part? hrm. just like your entire article, based entirely on gross assumptions and stereotypes. good job :roll:

Iku Tri

On January 30, 2008 at 3:17 pm

I agree with William, and ManofTeal makes a good point.

On another note: TV Land called me, they we’re asking for Hymowitz.
I told them they had the wrong number.

My point is that it is a new age…..Um, I wonder if that has to do with something….

Parker

On January 30, 2008 at 3:28 pm

I am def. a man-child and proud of it. I graduated from a top tier college. I make a very nice salary. I live w/ my girlfriend and play video games for about 3-4 hours a night. If I bust my a$$ all day at work, I can do whatever the F&* I want to at night. If she thinks we should be taking on more traditional roles, then she should shut-up and make me a sandwich woman. Seen not heard.

Sigma 7

On January 30, 2008 at 3:36 pm

When growing up, I’ve seen various advertisements that said “Stay in school” combined with many other sources that said that school was the key to success. This was not correct for the following:
- School is fixed rate because it needs to cater to various people based on the same age group. If I wanted to learn more advanced math, I had to do it as an extracurricular activity – cutting into the amount of time doing homework or leisure (depending on which path I take.) A direct result of this is that I generally was already familiar enough with the subject at hand that I never needed to study.
- Likewise, if you are behind in a topic (e.g. art), the school isn’t able to boost your performance. The result of this is that you put less effort into that topic since you know you aren’t going to get anything worthwhile.
- If you have something like a more permanent writer’s block, there’s nothing you can do. There were plenty of poetry-writing assignments in English class, and aside from claiming that prose met the requirements, I never received any information on how to work around these problems.

When it comes to the work place, I have one question – where do I find an entry-level programming position? Many of the positions on the market insist on having five years of experience in whatever field, usually with some software package that individuals aren’t likely to install on their computer unless they expect to be working with that product.

Will

On January 30, 2008 at 3:46 pm

I am 31yo male, and my parents are still married… pretty rare among people my age. Perhaps the reason we aren’t in such a hurry to “settle down” and get married is because we’ve seen so many marriages fall apart, and many of us are in fact the children of broken homes, and we’re not really in a hurry to put ourselves through that same heartache.

By the same token, we are basically the first generation that is absolutely going to have less in material wealth than our parents. It is inescapable, given the global economic and environmental pressures on us now. So most of us simply don’t care. We’re learning to do more with less, enjoy ourselves and not put ourselves in the grave by overworking.

What right does she have to complain, anyway? Is she looking for some man to marry her daughter off to who will bring home the bacon every night? Ridiculous.

Chris

On January 30, 2008 at 3:47 pm

It seems many people here can’t read, or just read the headline.

She writes about young, single men who don’t want to grow up, whose lives revolve around video games.

This obviously does not apply to me, a married video game playing 29 year old with a second kid on the way.

Drexl

On January 30, 2008 at 3:52 pm

The “Child-man” report is nothing more than conjecture. I’m sure there are people that fall into the category of being a “Child-man” as Hymowitz describes, but all of my friends that play video games are a happy lot.

I agree with many of the comments here and with the editorial piece here. I think Hymowitz needs to take a step back and examine her thoughts more closely. Many of the people I graduated high school with got married and had kids by the ages of 19. Many of them are divorced now and have never been to college. I don’t see anyone from my graduating class anymore. I moved away as soon as I could. I’ve been in and out of college(taken jobs here and there just to see whats out there). Now, at 33 I’m back in school and finishing my degree, not married(never have been, no kids(not sure if I want them yet), and happy.

Note, Hymowitz, I’m Happy :razz: ! See the smiley face? I think it is silly to expect someone to marry and have kids just because that’s what was expected of people in the past. I’ll be damned if I’m going to do something just because everyone else does. That just doesn’t make sense.

Personal Attack: Hymowitz….are you jealous that you aren’t having fun?

bill

On January 30, 2008 at 3:54 pm

“Young men were no longer rushing to the alter or marrying childhood sweethearts and she seems to place the cause of this on games for one.”

Well, it could be that…or maybe it’s the fact that garbage like Sex and the City has turned at least 75% of girls in our age bracket into semi-psychotic materialistic airheads with a single thought process (“affection = handbags/jewelry”) that make relatively normal guys like myself shudder at the thought of settling down with one. No thanks, I’ll keep playing Mass Effect and dating around until I find one that doesn’t make me want to gnaw on broken glass.

MRK

On January 30, 2008 at 3:54 pm

@Sigma 7
The sad fact is, if you want an entry level programming job, you must get an internship while in college. If you do not get one, odds are you will be working as a manager at kinkos. These days there is no difference between a recent college grad and the guy from India. Just take solace in the fact that engineering interns are paid a living wage. In another 10 years, they will be unpaid (or not enough to live on), much like other professions.

The older generation always views the younger generation as lazy. For a good laugh, dig out old newspapers from the 1930s at your local library. The editorial sections complain how jazz music and dime store novels are ruining America’s youth.

Alex

On January 30, 2008 at 3:57 pm

Hymowitz makes an interesting point, but as you stated in the article, fails to point the ‘finger’ at the true cause. There are many different factors that contribute to the postponement of ‘adulthood’ and the slowing of the transition.

A major contributing factor might be the prosperity that older generations have given us. With so much wealth being passed around, many people simply have the time to relax longer. By no means is there an epidemic of slacking off, but men and women are realizing what true happiness means. Whether or not their happiness includes children and corporate ‘success’ is relative.

Technology has also streamlined the corporate process. Communication is infinitely faster than two decades ago, which leads to increased productivity. Mechanical automation has replaced slow, error-prone, manual labor with efficient, robotic systems. Why should a modern worker toil for an equivalent amount of time as a worker from 20 years ago, if the same amount of work can be completed in half the time?

As for having children, many people realize the responsibility that is required to raise them. It is more important that a parent is capable and prepared to raise their child than it is for that same person to ‘fulfill their roll’ before they are ready. Pressuring a young person to have children before they’re ready does nothing to help society and can have a devastating impact on the child.

One might look back on Kay Hymowitz’s generation and ask the question, what influence did rushing into marriage have on the current 50% divorce rates? If they had waited longer to get married, would their relationships have lasted?

I think the younger generation is looking at Hymowitz’s generation and taking note of what worked(made people happy) and what didn’t(made people miserable). Maybe the subsequent generations reflect on those past, and improve on the human experience.

Fred Tucker

On January 30, 2008 at 3:57 pm

Wow, you little child-men are proving her right.

WAHHHH…I wont have as much as my parents because of Global Warming, racism, homophobia, George Bush…

It is obvious most of you were emasculated by the feminist movement and pampered by hippie 60′s generation parents.

You whiners have a lot of nerve crying about how “bad” you have it when the hardest descision most of you have to make is do I super size or not.

As far as the female side of things I am writing a book on the insecure female phenomena where men are expected to totally capitulate to whims and desires of any wife/girlfriend. Just notice the number of posters on here that have apparently married the first woman who let them get to second base.

Jesse

On January 30, 2008 at 3:58 pm

Like some of the previous posters mentioned College merely offers a benchmark of knowledge and does not predict success. There is no substitution for experience. Many hiring managers, if faced to choose between a fresh college graduate with a four year degree in the IT field and someone with 4 years of hard experience, they’d more often than not choose the person with the experience. Just because you can study the books and ace the tests doesn’t mean you can do the actual work.

I realized this right out of High School and choose to enlist in my local Air Force Reserve unit. 4 years and several deployments later I may not have a college degree yet but I’ve got solid years of proven success working in a high-stress environment. At the average IT/Telecom company a ‘high stress situation’ would be fixing the server or the company looses several customers and a lot of profit. For me, a ‘high-stress situation’ means theres a group of stranded Rangers depending on you to fix that fried Satellite dish. Bearing profit loss on your shoulders pales in comparison to lost lives.

Do I plan on getting a 4-year degree? Of course. But I wanted the experience to get me in the door first. Proven experience speaks louder than paper degrees.

And, yes at age 23 I still play video games :mrgreen:

rob

On January 30, 2008 at 3:59 pm

Her editorial is filled with inconsistent logic, un-cited “facts” and a fixation with “milestones of achievement” that were appropriate 50 years ago when a decent trade skill could land a person a wage that a whole family could live on.

However the thing that got me the most is that she describes the man-child as living “happily”. If there is this giant group of people that is happily living and not endangering anyone, why would you want them to stop? Why is this woman set on ruining someone else’s happiness?

You know who else did stuff like that? They gave out mandatory pieces of flair.

Chris

On January 30, 2008 at 4:01 pm

This is a classic Baby-Boomer response to video games. “Oh the kids these days!”. I wonder if she remembers when her parent’s generation decried the imminent collapse of society being brought on by Rock-N-Roll.

Casey

On January 30, 2008 at 4:01 pm

Just for the record, I’m a woman.

I don’t see any issues with men playing video games. I think it’s perfectly fine to have a healthy balance of work and fun in your life. Just because a man chooses to play his favorite game every now and then also does not constitute irresponsibility. There are equally irresponsible men who do other things.

I think that games are just an outlet, something for the media and general population to blame for problems that have existed long before the rise of modern video games.

I say, play on, my friends. :smile: A man who assumes all responsibility with no fun, in the end, is a bitter man.

Also, pass the controller sometimes, it’s about time the girl gamers get some light. ;)

digger

On January 30, 2008 at 4:03 pm

I don’t see the difference between what our fathers did – Spend 3 hours watching a Football game, versus we gamers who spend 3 hours with Madden Football. Different, yes. But as far as time spent relaxing, no difference at all.

Also, 30+ years ago, women in the workplace was a fairly new concept. Now women are as prevalent in the workplace as men. Women used to clean the house, care for the kids, and make dinner. Now, they don’t. As such, we men don’t do what we used to either.

Chris from Bothell

On January 30, 2008 at 4:06 pm

Kay needs to read the book Rejuvenile.

http://www.amazon.com/Rejuvenile-Kickball-Cartoons-Cupcakes-Reinvention/dp/1400080894/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201726631&sr=8-1

That book basically goes more in-depth than she did, with more insight, empathy, research and understanding. And came to the conclusion that the (adult) kids are alright.

John Leeke

On January 30, 2008 at 4:09 pm

The corporteers who manufacture and market the games stole an important part of the child-mens’ hearts when they were young boys. The theft was so subtle that few of us noticed it happening. The theft was so complete that even the child-men now believe in what is left of their own hearts that they play games of their own free will and that they are satisfied doing it. As the young boys grew older, the corporateers made games to match adult interests with control, power, sex, violence, and even meeting the need for adult relationships by building in real-time interaction with other gamers. So, instead of joining the real adult world the child-men are content to buy and play in the market media construct so cleverly devised by the corporateers. It’s an interesting strategy on the part of the corporateers. The child-mens’ absorption in the games keeps the child-men from participating in real-life activities like politics that could limit the corporateers activities and profits; or raising a family and having direct human relationships that can help with the real work of this world. Instead they are satisfied giving away their lives and futures, which the corporateers will take.

Christian W.

On January 30, 2008 at 4:10 pm

Excellent discussion, one where I believe much of the issues stem back to the educational world. Being a recent college grad, it was not too hard to notice that men spent most of their free time playing games, while women always seemed to be busy with something productive. Of course, many colleges have seen proud men’s sports teams be destroyed by Title IX. My college had “Women’s Meet and Eats” and Female only luncheons for the science departments. Basically, there was a support structure in place to help them find themselves and figure out what they want in college. This is a fantastic idea; only problem was there were not always male equivalents.

The message, it seemed, for men was simply “get out there and earn your degree”. College students still need some direction in their lives, and with no one to watch them or prod them, these young men continue to the “boys will be boys” mantra. There is nothing wrong with playing games during college- I know I did- but I don’t know if so many people I know would have dropped out over a WOW addiction or something similar if someone close by at the college gave a about them.

It is a tricky debate among many, unfortunately, but right now women are succeeding and surpassing men in the High school and collegiate levels, yet it still seems like the majority of focus is placed on them. Men have been damaged goods in education for a while now, and it is sad to see.

Ned

On January 30, 2008 at 4:19 pm

A lot of men are now independent – they learned how to cook, clean, take care of themselves. “You” as a woman have to bring a lot to the table these days to get me to abandon my daily habits and get into the whirlpool or modern day marriage. Thank you, but no thanks. I will rather wait until I am 34-36, ready for commitment and have lesser portion of my life left to spend with a nagging, money-eating wife.

It sounds to me like the author of this article is just bitter that men finally emancipated themselves, learned tricks of the trade and learned to live by themselves.

Shogun

On January 30, 2008 at 4:24 pm

Kay Hymowitz’s ramblings are exactly why sociology is a soft science. Perhaps she should lay off the man-hating editorials and examine how the evolution of roles for both sexes have changed over the last 30 years. It’s not as if these things happen in a vacuum. As a 31 year old Gen X’er who loves video games and autonomy I am glad I didn’t get married at age 21. I’m positive that many of my female counterparts feel the same way. I wonder if Ms. Hymowitz tells her own kids to get hitched strait out of high school instead of getting an education and building a career. I would bet that the advice she gives her own progeny is less reflective of her editorials than it is the reality of our non-static society.

Also, I love reading.

43 yr old Man Child

On January 30, 2008 at 4:25 pm

Waited until later to settle down.. then spent
most of my 30′s with my wife enjoying each
other and our time together without kids.

Now have a couple of boys and am getting to
experience all this stuff with them. There are
so many things for us to explore together, it
keeps you young! Heck, even getting a bit into
video games now. Plus, being more financially
secure means I can buy lots more Legos!

Tired of all those whiny women who want it both
ways.

I was the balding nerdy dude in college, who couldn’t
get a piece of a** to save his life. Thanks to
MJ and a host of other’s bald is cool, and smart
geeks are in. Frankly? women wouldn’t give me the
time of day until my late 20′s early 30′s.
(it wasnt for lack of trying either!)

My only wish now was that I took the advice
of the grandfather in the movie Little Miss
Sunshine while I was younger! :-)

A good friend of mine put it to me this way

Women in their 20′s dont know what they want..
they hit that time and go a bit whacko (early
mid life crises?) Had it happen to me, I’m sure
most of the other guys here have had the same.

not a breeder

On January 30, 2008 at 4:27 pm

What absolute sexist garbage. You can take your marriage and breeding and cram it.
There are many who choose not to support an obsolete oppressive societal institution and produce ungrateful, annoying parasites on society just because it’s the accepted thing to do.

Billy B

On January 30, 2008 at 4:34 pm

Here is a woman sorely in need of . “I’m not a crook! But I’m still hung”

Michael

On January 30, 2008 at 4:35 pm

Let’s take Kay’s article and use some logical word substitutions…
“You’ve finished trade school and work at a desk in a large Chicago textiles firm. You live at the Y. In your spare time, you play stickball with your buddies, go out and take in a show, listen to some of that newfangled radio, take a bath, massage in some pome-ade – and then it’s off to a speakeasy, where you meet, and often bed, girls of widely varied hues and sizes. Wife? Kids? House? Are you kidding?”

Yup. Obviously Xbox 360 is the fall of mankind. Or you could look at it that things have changed. I married at 27 and had my first kid at 33. Yes, I play video games. Oh, and the average age? Yeah, that hasn’t gone up at all – so I’ll die in my late 50s. Right?

texasjim1093

On January 30, 2008 at 4:37 pm

Is rushing to have children such a great thing? Overpopulation is major threat in our not too distant future. Lengthening the reproductive cycle of humans is important. I prefer guys playing video games and having fun over money grubbing war mongers consuming precious resources and relying on Jesus to figure the rest out.

Casey

On January 30, 2008 at 4:40 pm

@Ned – You know I completely agree that this woman has a biased, uneducated view of the “modern” man, but I have to contrast and say that there are some women out there who would rather play a game -with- you, rather than the sheepish foolery most “nip n tuck” prim princess of today (who WOULD nag you and steal your money)

Men have emancipated themselves, and even as a woman, I think that’s -great-! It should serve to stand that I can support myself without the need to steal any man’s money, just as you should not be forced to settle down with someone who nags you and makes you unhappy. Still, not all women want to take you for granted. I know I’d rather play Halo or Fear or Team Fortress with my best guy friends than go to a spa any day! I think you do make a point though, I hate the way everyone, (men, women, gamers) are stereotyped.

L

On January 30, 2008 at 4:40 pm

This woman is sexist, plain and simple. “Men are more unfinished as people”? Are you seious?! If a man said that about women in an atricle he’s get his ass fired.

Ian

On January 30, 2008 at 4:40 pm

I think with all her ripping on this generation, she should look to where she acquired her statistics, I really doubt she went to the library or to the hall of records to find that info. She probably used a little thing I like to call the ‘internets’. Also, I’m 25, love my PS3 and read every single day on the train.

virginia werewolf

On January 30, 2008 at 4:42 pm

I think it’s getting easier and easier to get published these days. What a quack. Shame on NPR for running with this nonsense.

Cibbuano

On January 30, 2008 at 4:45 pm

Oddly enough, the article cites the movies “Knocked Up” and “40-Year-Old Virgin”, two movie which both stress the idea that men need to grow up and get on with their lives.

Bruce

On January 30, 2008 at 4:47 pm

I postponed marriage until 30, am in my mid- to late- thirties now, and make a decent living in tech. My wife is not working so she can raise our kids through Kindergarten.

Frankly, as a result of having a family, I no longer have a budget for the things I enjoy. I wouldn’t change my decision to have a family if I could, but society does not support families with single earners.

As they say Kay, correlation does not imply causation. Single men who sense the trap of parenthood are finding fun things to do (video games, movies, bars, sex, supporting Ron Paul, etc.). I say more power to them until we create a society that *really* respects and supports families.

WickedWilson

On January 30, 2008 at 4:50 pm

“We are healthy and prosperous as a society. ”

We are not, the fact is the demographic night-mare is coming upon Canada and japan because not enough children will be born to support old age pensions. It’s a complex problem to be sure, but every person that opts out of marriage or having children is contributing to the downfall of their own country and it’s values.

I had this realization realizing that islamics and religious people in general were outbreeding others by a large margin, the world will be worse off if sane people don’t have children.

St. Matthew

On January 30, 2008 at 4:51 pm

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Mike B.

On January 30, 2008 at 4:55 pm

If women didn’t have 100% of the financial leverage in marriage/divorce, men might happily rush right into it like they used to. As for me, I’ll happily build equity while I’m still single so that I’m up a creek without a paddle if I get divorced in the future.

Also, as people live longer and longer, should “age 30″ still be the yardstick for complete adulthood? What about the fact that more people go to college and get advanced degrees? What about the fact that it takes longer for most people to be able to afford to buy a house? I’m not saying “40 is the new 30″ but wouldn’t this “study” look a lot different if the benchmark were even 35?

By the way, I’m 25, I love sports and almost never play video games. Go figure!

Mike B.

On January 30, 2008 at 4:56 pm

edit: so that I’m NOT up a creek without a paddle.

Sorry!

-DC-

On January 30, 2008 at 5:00 pm

I’m 37 and have played video games since I was 13 or younger. They got me interested in computers and I was programming by the age of 15. I’ve been employed at the same company for 18 years and went to night school for 9 years to get my BS in engineering. So much for her theory about video games and immature men.

As for marriage, I agree with several other posters that the idea of a divorce scares off most men, especially older ones who have worked hard (like me) to get to where they are financially. With the way the laws are written, all it takes is a failed marriage to destroy that instantly. Half of what I’ve earned in my life is NOT yours! :mad:

ccast

On January 30, 2008 at 5:00 pm

Bare with my rant here, I’ll circle the wagons: Failed experiments in foreign military adventurism which have stretched America’s armed forces to the breaking point, alienated our friends, empowered our enemies, and left us less, not more, secure against attack or invasion.

In the name of what?
Being able to buy soy milk at 4am from Wal Mart on any given Sunday?

I can only hope that this is merely one example of our current cultural operating system destroying itself. This, “the man is supposed to do this and that or he is not a man business” has sent more people (men, women and children) to an early grave than cigarettes.

Our little cultural operating system allows for a voracious use of resources so that a relatively small group of people sit pretty (play games, get fat, etc) while the rest of our blue ball eats . That is a problem… but it’s not of the common man’s design. As the operating system eats itself, things will hopefully begin to change and perhaps the so-called man-child’s gaming will play a relevant role too. After all, all of our problems these days (besides global warming) are mental.. human decisions we have to make as a people to make life better for those that have nothing.

JT

On January 30, 2008 at 5:07 pm

I agree with the general sentiment of the comments here. I am 28, married, and I have degrees in Mechanical Engineering and Computer Science. I start my PhD in the fall. My wife is a student and has a full-time career. We are both gamers, and we game together. My professors are gamers, my colleagues are gamers, most of the people in my industry and discipline are gamers. I’d say my wife and I average about an hour a night. However, we don’t watch more than a half hour of television a night and we are both heavy readers. However, if you took the author’s word for it, families like mine either do not exist or are somehow less valuable or functional when compared to some ill-defined ideal. But the authors claims are unsourced, speculative, anecdotal and unverifiable. I fail to see that my choice of entertainment defines me as an immature boy-man, when I have achieved as many or more “real adult” milestones as the 28-year-olds of her pet generations. The fact of the matter is that during the 50′s and 60′s, when many of our parents were plunked down in front of Captain Kangaroo, the same was said of them. Only then, the villain was television. Before that, radio, jazz, the Charleston, etc.

The author is simply measuring compliance with a set of social norms or scripts and wailing in alarm when they are violated, without exploring the sources of those change pressures or the broader implications. It is a sermon to the converted. There is nothing inherently better about the lives of men of former generations, but there were socially crippling stigmas about being single into your thirties for any reason other than military service. How is making a such a choice preferable or any more mature if you do it under pressure of being an outcast? How are games leading the charge into immaturity, where television and other forms of media aren’t? Here’s an experiment. Compare a news broadcast from the Cronkite or Murrow era to any random hour from one of the 24-hour news networks. Better yet, compare a game from 1988 to one from 2008. Is spending 9-12 hours watching the Lord of the Rings trilogy really any different from playing Assassin’s Creed for the 12 hours it takes to complete? If not, then why is one the pinnacle of high-brow entertainment and the other a sign of immaturity and poor lifestyle choices?

24 year old boy man

On January 30, 2008 at 5:10 pm

:roll:

Why are people so stupid? As a young person in the workplace, I see negative stereotypes directed towards young people, and especially young men.

Im exactly what they expect of me. A Digg reader, internet user, and video game player. I spend hours a night playing videogames. That is after I come home from work, for which I recieve a salary, pay into a 401(k), wear collard shirts and sit in an office. I have been doing this for over 2 years since graduating college (in 4 years). I have not only received good reviews and over $10k in pay increases, I have never had a bad review!

I have a girlfriend, numerous friends who do and dont play videogames with me, manage to read (literature, not Danielle Steele) a book every month or so (9 last year).

As far as I can see it, I spend just as much time playing videogames each night as does any american in front of their TV. Are video games, especially online multiplayer interactive games, where human voice is transmitted over the internet, creating a verbal social network, any worse than the hours and hours of fat people getting skinny, high school kids having sex, and rampant drug use?

Just try to look around before making asinine statements.

nyred

On January 30, 2008 at 5:17 pm

Dude, it’s spelled “altar.”

Not only are these child men stuck in adolescence, they can’t spell either.

Matt

On January 30, 2008 at 5:28 pm

Kay Hymowit is obviously missing one HUGE point. I know of very few women under 25 that wants to get married right away, let alone have kids. Of the women that did get married to their HS sweetheart , they’re now divorced and view the whole endeavor as a mistake.
Virtually everyone I know wants to have a sound financial footing before starting a family. Furthermore, so many men and women today have seen their parents go through divorces and don’t want to experience that themselves nor put their kids through that. They’re more careful about entering into marriage if they ever get married. It’s not the requirement it used to be.
IF anything I think men and women are more responsible today by not rushing in to marriage and family. By taking things slower, establishing careers, figuring out what they want, they improve their chances of success.

Ian

On January 30, 2008 at 5:30 pm

@nyred

Chief Giant Brain: The big brain am winning again! I am the greetest! Mwa-ha-ha-ha! Now I am leaving Earth for no raisin!

Name it and I’ll give you a cupcake.

Scott

On January 30, 2008 at 5:31 pm

I am 38, married at 23, 4 kids, and I play video games as well as supporting my family through my career. Video games are simply a form of recreation like television, movies, books etc. There is no difference. Any of these can take over your life if you are not careful, it is all about balance.

That said I think there are a number of other reasons why people are not getting married early. One big one is the common nature of pre-marital sexual relations. I am not judging anyone, but a BIG reason people used to get married young was because society frowned on relations outside of marriage. Now there is little pressure in that regard.

Another big reason is that careers are far less secure than they were in the past. 40 years ago you would get hired in a company and work there the rest of your life, with all the security that brings. It was not necessarily efficient for society, but it did mean that people felt secure enough to get married and start a family younger.

I think the last reason this is happening is because of a change in dating behavior. People don’t “date” anymore, they hang out and hook up. Formal dating as it used to be is far more rare.

There are lots of reasons why men aren’t starting a career and settling down with a wife and kids early in life anymore. Blaming it on video games is ridiculous.

Claire

On January 30, 2008 at 5:37 pm

There are a lot of men who believe women are equal to men right now, which is not the case, especially when it comes to earnings – men still make more money than women even if they are doing the same work! There are also men who have a problem with women in the work force (OMG! taking jobs that belong to men – give me a break). What this amounts to is a backlash against having to become responsible fathers when women are making money and working. Women often have to take care of the children and cook after work, while the man-child sits in front of the TV playing video games. A man who puts off commitment may be doing his partner a favor. Delaying fatherhood and motherhood until maturity and finances are straight is the best plan. But if fatherhood were to land in a man’s lap unexpectedly, it is time to get off of the couch and start being there for your girlfriend/spouse and child. So grow up already!

ray

On January 30, 2008 at 5:40 pm

I am ganna keep this short,…..because you guys hit some good points. isn’t it someones right to choose when they want to pop out a kid and get married? i just graduated college…a very good one at that and what if I wanted to travel around the world for a few years, that does not make me a productive member of society?..anyway….I think some old boyfriend of the writer must of dumped her for halo or something haha…..this article is so subjective it makes me sick

Claire

On January 30, 2008 at 5:43 pm

By the way PARKER – go make that sandwich yourself. I hope your gf leaves you. You are clearly a narcissistic piece of trash.

Ian

On January 30, 2008 at 5:44 pm

@Claire, my best friend and his special lady had a baby about 16 months ago. as he put it to me when he found out he was having a baby, “it was as unexpected as bird ” they are doing a wonderful job raising the little tyke. however, they are separating because it is the female that still wants her freedom to sleep with who she wants and party when she wants. because of this, my friend is having to sacrifice time at his job in order to raise the child. There are exceptions to every rule, so off already.

Dave

On January 30, 2008 at 5:47 pm

i agree with the general sentiment already expressed. I’m in my late 30s and don’t spend much time playing videogames, but I would if I had the time. They’re definitely the best form of entertainment available.

As for breeding – why bother? I pretty much expect hyper-intelligent robots to wipe us all out within my lifetime, so I think humans will soon be passe’. Even if I’m wrong, the Catholics and Muslims are doing a fine job poppin’ out puppies anyways, so I think they’ve got it covered. Me, I’m busy.

tim

On January 30, 2008 at 5:53 pm

Her argument could be made for sport too, kids play baseball. she just arbitrarily decided that one activity that people do as children is childlike and another is not. you could equally say that continuing to play sport into adulthood makes you a man child. it’s the same old refusal to acknowledge that games have evolved. would watching a film make you childish? or a sports match. What’s the obsession with outer peoples reproduction the world is overpopulated anyway. personally i want to have kids some day but the fewer of us that don’t the more resources for the rest of us.
Some years down the road this will sound like ‘rock and roll is the devils music’ does to the baby-boomers.

Peace!

boyman

On January 30, 2008 at 6:00 pm

A kid can’t climb a tree and break his wrist anymore without triggering a lawsuit and having legislation named after him. Teens are treated like little kids by politicians and parents in a very alarming way. I’m 28 now and am finally an adult, but I see how my little cousins are treated in school now, and it’s terrifying. My 16yo cousin will start crying over anything. If you think this generation is bad, wait 10 years and see what you get. Oh well, I’m sick of this, I’m going to my room.

typey

On January 30, 2008 at 6:01 pm

Please… I get stuck on every wrong “20′s”, “30′s”, and “80′s” in the article -

Write “in their 20s” – just add and s to the end. Plural=s

The ’80s, are just the ’80s. The apostrophe goes where the 19 was dropped, then add an s to the end.

Nothing you are writing is possessive, please stop the typos.

MRK, Michael, and Dave got it right…

Thanks.

CyberSkull

On January 30, 2008 at 6:04 pm

How much more culturally illiterate can this woman be?

Derek Powles

On January 30, 2008 at 6:05 pm

You say I’m immature and I say you’re needy.

Of course you’re going to label free men as immature, childlike, directionless. You need them to believe in crap like loftier goals, commitment and maturity so they’ll settle down with you and help you raise the kids you’re biologically driven to have.

Just as there was a backlash against women who choose to live their lives outside of gender norms now there’s one against men who choose to defy their gender norm as bread-winners and actually enjoy their lives and income. At the center of this is the idea that there are loftier aspirations to aspire to, that if these men would just drop this juvenile behavior and start acting like adults there would be rich rewards for all the ensuing sacrifice and responsibility.

That just isn’t the case. I’m statistically unlikely to change the world and it already has 6,000,000,000 people so it doesn’t need my offspring. Long term commitments like marriage are actually long term about half the time. I’m not immature Ms. Hymowitz, I’ve just evaluated your loftier goals and found them lacking. Do you still begrudge me my choices when you see the obvious logic behind them?

5-15-9

On January 30, 2008 at 6:08 pm

Home consoles were a new thing to the current generation. Just like our grandparents probably criticized our parents for getting those “dadblaned VCRs,” so, too, our elders complain about video games. And what’s odd is that Ronald Reagan said, about video games, “I recently learned something quite interesting about video games. Many young people have developed incredible hand, eye, and brain coordination in playing these games. The air force believes these kids will be our outstanding pilots should they fly our jets.”

It’s not the games, systems, and such, that are the problems. The problem is that EVERYTHING has become so fast paced that the Pay-Off of a real hard day’s work and the older methods of rearing children have become second banana. Leisure itself is the main thing marketed today. And at least with the advent of the Wii, games are more and more keeping kids from being couch potatoes. Anyone who looks at Wii sports and Wii Fit will likely tell you the same.

Lastly, guys who don’t want to marry and have children would do so with or without video games. Again, it’s the leisure of having everything simplified (I guess in a futile attempt to get back to some garden of Eden, Utopian existence) that’s made people lazy. If you really want this problem solved, shut down more than half of the companies that sell us stuff we don’t need at all. And as time goes on, forms of digital entertainment, becoming more and more real things of art, are not amongst things we don’t really need, but rather things that we want and for all the right reasons, like good cinema. Some of us, anyways.

Dan

On January 30, 2008 at 6:11 pm

Maybe she should address the change in modern women, I’ll call them -Women, that makes them think from the age of 13 that they are God’s gift to all and that it’s OK to be selfish and y and annoying. These -Women are driving smart, rational, grown men into a reverted state where they used to not care about girls.

itguykelly

On January 30, 2008 at 6:11 pm

I’m a 35 yo gwm. I have a JD and an MBA and I work about 50 hours a week. I read about a novel (usually a trashy one) a week. I spend time with my family and friends a couple of evenings a week, and on the weekends. I participate in politics and progressive causes. I also like to be able to go home and log on to WoW and raid for a few hours a couple of times a week, and some time on the weekend. When I worked in a coffee shop while I was in law school, people called me a “slacker.” Now when I administer the IT infrastructure for a $1 billion company, I’m called a “child-man” because I love to get my game on.

With all due respect, Ms. Hymowitz, bite me.

Dave

On January 30, 2008 at 6:13 pm

I’m reminded of the movie Idiocracy, where the intelligent, successful couple continues to delay procreation, citing this logical reason and that logical reason, while the idiot masses pump out idiot children left and right… WE ARE DOOMED!

Jackola

On January 30, 2008 at 6:19 pm

I think it sounds like more of a Kay Hymowitz problem. :wink:

Though, admittedly I have never heard of Kay.

Ashley N.

On January 30, 2008 at 6:21 pm

Being a women myself, I must indicate how enraging it is to read articles that make absurd and sexist claims against society. The feminists have made my situation more difficult with their hypocritical claims for equality which are nothing more than self serving. Women in my generation (or at least the ones intelligent enough to possess original thought)are becoming increasingly aware of the pressures placed on men to be contributing members of society while supporting a family. My generation expects both men and women to be successful, yet Hymowitz focuses on the seeming “failure” of a single sex.

Since i’m a 21 year old college student who hasn’t gotten pregnant, i feel pretty successful. This statement should shed light on the shift in my generation’s concepts of success. What would have been, 20 years ago, a joyful proclamation of pregnancy would be a shameful embarrassment today. I’am expected to make something of myself, despite the fact that i’am female, before i bring a child into this world. Since men are biologically capable of procreation well beyond middle age, i don’t see why Hymowitz finds it so imperative that men should settle down before they’re 30.

Hymowitz attacks the young men of my generation for being video game obsessed children who are failing to live up to her subjective and archaic ideals of the role men should fulfill. Personally, i believe Hymowitz should have asked herself why these men were prolonging their so called “adolescence”, and write about that. The guarantee of finding a job immediately after college is no longer present. Finding a wife is the ultimate challenge todays young men face, and i think it should have been the issue Hymowitz focused on.

I attend a reputable university and everyday i end up wondering how some of my female class mates were granted acceptance into an establishment of higher education. If i were Hymowitz, i’d be way more concerned with what modern day society is doing to young girls. Women in my generation seem to think love=being showered with material possessions, and believe the only thing they are required to offer is their physical appearance and sexuality.

Maybe if the women in my generation placed more emphasis on liberating themselves intellectually, they would give their male counter parts some sort of incentive to get married. At the moment men view marriage as an obligation, one that takes away freedom and involves handing over money to an unappreciative who doesn’t feel obligated to contribute herself. Attitudes would change if marriage was truly an equal partnership. Men have lost confidence in the female sex, and i myself have too. There needs to be more incentive for a man to obtain a career and a family then the promise of hard work, bratty kids, and a materialistic wife who’s only positive qualities fade after her first pregnancy.

So, keep playing those video games boys. We all need an escape from the harsh realities of life, and i think it’s a good thing.
Hymowitz

mike

On January 30, 2008 at 6:24 pm

nothing new here. the term ‘hobby’ comes from medieval or earlier english women, who were making fun of their hubbie’s ‘hobby’ of paying more attention to their horses (hobby-horse) than to their spouses. in context, a horse WAS the most efficient long range transportation available in those days, and horses ARE more maintenance intensive than the means that followed. moreover the horse or herd went a long way toward proving the worth of a man. in turn, different male oriented activities have been scorned by wimminfolk (with varying accuracy) ever since,from guns and golf, to hot-rods and stereo equipment.

playing video games has NEVER been a consistent means of acquiring real property or even the bare neccessities of life, so i’m mostly on the same page as the girls on this one.

Nathan

On January 30, 2008 at 6:42 pm

The article that this blog was based on made me pretty angry and the blog itself missed, in my view, a major factor contributing to the delay in marriage and family or as the author puts it, adulthood. It’s economics. I am a 32 year old man who works full time in a professional tech field and have since I was 22 years of age. The cost of living is so high where I live that I am basically surviving month to month with little money set aside to protect me from financial calamity. I rent, not because I want to, but because it’s the only thing economically available to me.

That being said, I am the picture of what this woman rails against in her article. I am generally adverse to commitment, although I do live with my girlfriend, and I am a habitual game player. Why do I play games so much? Because it’s one of the few affordable entertainment options available to me. Gas prices and airline fares make regular travel out of the question. Even a dinner and a movie for 2 people is going to cost $100. Going to the bar with your sweetheart, 200 bucks easily. So I game, and I game A LOT, not because I am HAPPY like the author surmises but because I don’t have many alternatives. Sure I go on a hike or down to the beach once in awhile, but it’s not like I can do that everyday when I work fulltime.

As far as commitment goes, I look at marriage and relationships in pessimistic economic terms. I am busting my butt just to make ends meet to take care of myself and the idea of being responsible for the economic needs of a wife and children is extremely unattractive. Gone are the days of good paying paternalistic corporations where you work hard and gradually get ahead. The reality for many of us is that the cost of living outpaces wages and layoffs due to downsizing and outsourcing are frequent. It used to be in the 1960′s that you could get a decent paying middle class job with a high school degree, now the same earning power requires a masters degree or more. Of course getting those advanced degrees puts an individual often deep in debt which of course offsets that earning power.

In summation, likening the choices of our parents generation to our current one in terms of maturity without addressing the underlying economic factors is absolutely asinine and yet another indication of how out of touch the baby boomer generation has become.

Michael Wong

On January 30, 2008 at 6:45 pm

Gosh! Videogames aren’t the problem! As a man-child myself, I’m 38, my inability to be a productive member of society arose because I didn’t and still don’t believe in society. I believe we’re all living in a computer simulation so aptly articulated in my favorite movie of all time, you know the one. Ergo, I’d rather spend my time ing around than being “normal”. Careers are inventions to trap the majority into turning the gears of society. Work harder, spend more, work even harder, spend even more, then you die. I for one, am sick of it.

Having said that I’m not into videogames as much as I was before because I can’t find one that’s good: often I go back to playing the oldies, but goodies like Mario Kart.

But I’m still a slacker. I slack better than any gamer I know.

Stephany

On January 30, 2008 at 6:46 pm

Ashley N. said it! :grin:

Hymowitz is a bane to women everywhere. What about Women like me, in their 30′s who are in no rush to get married or have children? Are we not contributing to society as well? What about the women who would rather play Oblivion, GTA, God of War, and BioShock instead of going out to eat with a bunch of women who only wish to gossip and get into an all out argument on who’s daughter is the most popular in high school, while moaning on and on about the latest trend in navy blue nail polish while they complain that their husbands fish too much or want sex every night? GOD FORBID!

What is wrong with a guy who is self-reliant and who would rather play games than go out carousing every night? Who cares if they don’t want to get married yet, who says that they HAVE to? Who says that what they are doing is wrong? Weird, feminist idealistic airheads like this woman give the rest of us a bad name.

Personally, I will take a bottle of jack, a pack of smokes and the latest shoot em up free for all of a game on any given night than go out in public and deal with idiotic, shallow women (or men) any day of the week and I would prefer a male who felt the same damn way.

To all the girls who and complain that their beaus are playing too much and ignoring them, I am sure eHarmony could find them a boring OBGYN to oblige those tickle brains and their high maintenance ways.

Jordan

On January 30, 2008 at 6:48 pm

It’s a waste of energy to generalize. Her observations are true. Your point of view has some merit also.

Society seems to be changing, as it always has. As an ambitious 21 year old, I like the fact that there are so many lazy gamers. Less competition for wives, jobs, promotions, etc.

There’s nothing wrong with being a “child-man” and if women want men who have grown up then they are out there. But there are many women who “say” they want someone who is not a child-man but in actuality they like the fun and lack of responsibility. What woman would ever admit to liking random hook-ups and no responsibility?

Another John

On January 30, 2008 at 6:49 pm

I play games, sometimes for hours on end, I also make more than the average wage. I’d also like to have children, but my wife, she’s not so sure, she regards them as something that will tie her down and stunt her career. What’s a guy to do eh?

Daniel

On January 30, 2008 at 6:56 pm

” (That’s 13 minutes longer than 12- to 17-year-olds, who evidently have more responsibilities than today’s twentysomethings.) ”

I wouldn’t be surprised. High-achieving high school students tend to work for at least as long as their parents do every day. I know I (a junior in high school) spend six hours at school and always have at least four hours of homework.

kit

On January 30, 2008 at 7:04 pm

@Claire: Is it really wise to start down that road, which seems to aggregate the societal gender problems instead of fixing them?

Maybe I’ve grossly misread the sentiments, but jobs don’t “belong to men” — instead, they are jobs that, in a more sexist era, men could expect to belong solely to men. Women don’t always earn as much as men (sometimes they do, sometimes they earn more, sometimes they earn less), but the fact is that the jobs that society once expected a man to take are now acquirable by either gender. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that; indeed, I fully support it. But that doesn’t change the fact that there is a lower percentage of jobs for men to hold. So while society progresses towards equality (note: progresses; it’s obvious society isn’t equal, but it is more so than it was), it simultaneously denounces that progression and demands the return of gender stratification.

“What this amounts to is a backlash against having to become responsible fathers when women are making money and working. Women often have to take care of the children and cook after work, while the man-child sits in front of the TV playing video games.”

Not…really. At least, not directly due to changes in the workplace. As a general rule, it’s dependent on the couple. Every sociological case-study I’ve read has had a fairly even spread of couples where the woman is the “homemaker,” even if she has the job, or where the man is the “homemaker,” even if he’s in the same position, or *gasp*, where both of them spend a fairly even amount of time in the role. In practice, I’ve seen it about equivalent to the studies.

Just throwing that out there.

Kristen O

On January 30, 2008 at 7:57 pm

Seriously, I had no idea until I read this how many guys believe that they will have to support their wife, and that she’s basically a moneyhole. Maybe this is the feminism at work, but I totally expected I was going to have to either pay half of the bills or do all of the housework/childcare. I am glad to know that no one actually believes this. This is a fantastic scam for women, and in the name of feminism, we should probably let them go on believing it…

God, now I feel guilty. Seriously, guys? Seriously? Do you not watch Judge Judy, because if you’re not watching this and taking notes on how she tells women to handle their finances in a relationship, this might really happen to you, and you’ll end up settling for one of the vacuous airheads everyone seems to dislike so much.

Notes:
1) Pre-nup, no matter what. A fair pre-nup, but a pre-nup.
2) Separate checking accounts, plus a joint household account.
3) Have her cancel any credit cards that she can’t pay herself, because she shouldn’t be living in debt, much less expecting you to pay for it.

Simple. Now there’s no fake barrier against getting married. There’s only the real barrier which is: meeting the right person, and being ready.

David

On January 30, 2008 at 10:11 pm

I totally agree with you MRK and many others above. This article on one hand focuses and blames man as the sole problem. The author has has not realised just how absolutely psychotic, demanding and sometimes just plain retarded (to put it bluntly) many women have become…. many not all. There are still the jewels and diamonds out there and I’m prepared to wait till I find the special woman for life.

But to be fair and speaking as a young doctor watching marriages fall apart in hospital, prolific cheating and just plain selfish, immature acts of self gratification, it does take two to tango. It’s depressing really. I envy my old 70 year old patients who are still married to their loved one all these years and are able to put up with each others shortcomings by their strength, commitment and realism, through disease and past death. This generation is mostly a jaded and faded generation. Sigh… I’m beginning to sound jaded too! Computer games at the very least provides a temporary mental relief from this sometimes surreal society.

Ferguson

On January 30, 2008 at 10:54 pm

Question for Kristen O. If two people get married and both have car payments from vehicles bought before marriage, do you believe it should be a joint effort to pay for these cars, or should each person have to be responsible for their car? Should someone have to ‘pick up the slack?’

Clarissa

On January 30, 2008 at 11:56 pm

This article has a really interesting position coming from a male perspective, especially because I continue to struggle with trying to understand video game use. I definitely have more insight and appreciation now.

But I think that the misunderstanding between generations and social customs needs more critical consideration. While I identify with generation y and agree that our social norms have changed in what we would consider appropriate recreational activities for our time, it is also important to identify what we consider appropriate marital affairs in relation to other generations’ ideals.

We live in an age where co-habitation is becoming more popular and the idea of marriage is more of an option than a primary goal. Where we stand ideologically as a generation on marital affairs, is still unclear as we continue to develop. However liberal our society transgresses toward, we will continue transitioning between ideals.

While I identify with generation y, my ideals on marital status are still consistent with ideals from my father’s generation, and I look forward to marriage and growing old with my husband. Others in my age group question whether marriage is the answer. There are others who identify with a sexual orientation that currently does not allow them to seek “marriage” as an option, and there are so many other cultural complexities that need to be considered.

For these reasons I think that the problem is not that there are generational differences, but that our generation is still in transition and struggling to develop what we desire out of our lives. I feel it is more of an inner generational struggle to find out what we value than anything else.

Men and women are choosing not to follow the social customs of courtship and early marriage, because our generation’s ideals are changing, not only in what we normalize as social recreation but also in our ideals of marital affairs.

I can understand Hymowitz’s frustrations, because while we, as a generation, are struggling to find what we desire or agree on as “normal,” there are others that still seek to fulfill more traditional ideals of marriage and those people struggle to find someone who desires those same things.

So the frustration for me personally comes from inner generational ambiguity. What do men want at this age? What do women want at this age? Where do I fall on this spectrum? How can I find others like me who desire the same things?

ram

On January 31, 2008 at 12:31 am

It really is just a matter of culture. Me being a 27 year old male I grew up through the emergence and growth of gaming. Some of my fondest memories are from the nes, snes, genesis, n64, playsation and so forth. It’s what we grew up with as our form of entertainment. I still went out and played with my friends yet I still remeber the times playing contra with my buddy trying to beat the end boss. We loved to do it and still love doing it, it’s what we know and what we have come to be good at.

There’s a reason gaming is a billion dollar industry today, all the people who originally played still love playing. It’s no different from seeing a movie or reading a book. The only difference is males tend to enjoy gaming more than females. The lack of males wanting to “become adults” has more to do with traditional defintions of male roles than what men actually do today. We capably provide for ourselves while enjoying past times of our childhood. We are just lucky enough to have those available.

I know of 50yr old men who enjoy gaming that have had kids and have contributed socially and economically over half a century. The problem lies in older generations not wanting to accept change. You can’t expect the values of 50yrs ago to coincide with today’s culture. It won’t happen. You either learn to deal with it and have fun or shut up an die.

craig

On January 31, 2008 at 12:41 am

Me thinks Claire is the author in disguise. You really need to come down off that high horse.
You sound like one of those entitled nags we all dread getting saddled with.

Having said that, if you agree with the author then by all means get in the kitchen and make a sammich. KNOW YOUR ROLE… since you seem to think you know ours so well.

Fair is fair after all. :roll:

Whatever

On January 31, 2008 at 1:05 am

Before computer games it was cars
before cars it was horses
before horses it was knives
before knives it was sticks.
Before sticks.. well. I’m sure that women found ways to put down men.

Nothing to see here, move along.

Ron Roktar

On January 31, 2008 at 1:24 am

This old chick is out of her tits. She sounds like the Ann Coulter of old people.

Fred

On January 31, 2008 at 2:10 am

A lot of woman and wives are as much addicted to their soap operas as the men are to their games.

WeZz

On January 31, 2008 at 3:00 am

There are many factors that she obviously hasn’t taken into consideration. I’m 22 and according to her should be a prime candidate to reproduce. I personally don’t find marriage to be a priority at the moment not because i’m too busy with gaming but because of all the failed marriages I’ve seen through out my life. I’ve hardly encountered couples from my parents generation who can actually consider themselves happily married and their main reason is because they’ve rushed into it . I’ve seen divorces come left and right and I’m not ready to gamble on my child’s life to find out I’ve made the same mistake. My priorty is to 1st get a successful career while enjoying life then settle down when my life is stable.

child-man-and-proud

On January 31, 2008 at 3:20 am

I am a child-man….and I am proud of it.

In a secular world where we are no longer even sure of the existence of God…everything is up for grabs. Hell! we don’t even have a clear definition of right and wrong anymore?

Words like “commitment” and “maturity” are just used to manipulate us into being more “traditional”….and why is being “traditional” so fantastic?
It certainly didn’t work for the generation before us. They’re a miserable bunch of men. Hen-pecked, emasculated pack-horses. It’s like the original author is telling us to grow up, stop enjoying life and accept you role as a provider. No thanks.

I play games, date, travel the world ….and earn a good living.
I’m enjoying my immaturity.

Glard

On January 31, 2008 at 5:31 am

“Maybe we should marry by the age of fourteen like some other countries.”
@somewhat: If you looked back in history, not more than 500 years ago, it’s quite common for people to marry back then, especially in Eastern country and such.

Glard

On January 31, 2008 at 5:31 am

(DANG!)
At the age of 15 and below, I mean.

Part Time Gamer

On January 31, 2008 at 6:53 am

Wezz has got it right, marriage isn’t all its cracked up to be and I think the reason things are different for men is that we have choice now with the flood of information (internet) readily available we can see that the archaic pathway’s in life ( high school > college > marriage > kids > mortgage > football on the weekends > mid life crisis > divorce > 45 year old man with a young girlfriend > shallow later life existence pondering where it went wrong > death) is not the only option anymore…

A big problem is women and societies placement of immense importance on marriage and relationships, why cant we take our time, meet someone we actually like and slowly form a solid relationship OR not if you don;t want to.

(rash generalisation coming …) maybe we should be like alot of young “productive” women and spend most our cash on make-up, jewelry, clothing and all that other totally insignificant shiny they focus on in life, at least gaming is somewhat mentally challenging, id rather be taking headshots from 100 yards against someone from the other side of the world than buyin’ eye shadow any day of the week…

I reckon Kay needs to ride her horse and cart into the 21st century.

Just my two cents which is all i have left after my last wife!

Oh and one person for your whole life, sort of goes against our natural behaviour and instincts hence the massive divorce rate, but ofcourse marriage is a billion dollar business so we wont focus on reality, seems a few women have a hard time with reality? (disclaimer – again generalising, have some very intelligent and realistic female friends)

Now back to COD4 kaboom…

Jared Lorz

On January 31, 2008 at 6:55 am

Hmm an interesting point but I’m not sure if I agree with you.

Jared Lorz

WalterK

On January 31, 2008 at 8:42 am

I’m 23, and live with my girlfriend out in a city where we both work and pay all the bills and support each other financially (and otherwise).

I’m just chiming in with a lot of other people here — Marriage and childbirth sound completely awful to me. I genuinely don’t really want either. I hate every wedding I’ve been to.

That said, I read often. I read good stuff too – biology, philosophy, literature; I miss learning so many things so often during college. It’s very important to keep your mind active. I’ve never understood how someone could come along and decide my video game hobby is a waste of time. Video games are great fun. Someone else already pointed this out: How are they any different than movies and tv (as far as their worth is concerned)? People love to imagine that there is some crisis with the current youth; like they’ve somehow fallen from grace, and just aren’t as good as previous generations. It’s a reoccurring theme: in the 50s they had rock and roll music, in the 60s they had drugs. It’s been said that ‘History is the practice of remembering an idyllic time that never really happened.” Trust me, this generation is pretty much the same as the thousands before it; they just have different interests. A new meaningless occupation (TV, music, sports, religion) isn’t going to make a whole generation immature. People aren’t having children? GREAT. There are too many people. If only everyone had this problem. We’d have fewer environmental problems, fewer issues with starvation, etc. The OLPC (inexpensive laptop made for developing nations as part of a government subsidy program) has just been released to impoverished countries in Africa. Perhaps they too, will use the internet and play games, and lose interest in raising families and having children. Scarcity of clean water and food will be less of an issue as population dwindles. Needless to say, the scourge of AIDS will have less impact as young men stay home to play video games, and get their sexual release through the internet.

Obviously I’m joking about that last part. But, I feel it’s fitting. Like so many sitcom authors it’s obvious that Kay just has something against men. It’s pretty fashionable these days. When I see articles like this it makes me want to steer clear away from marriage. I can’t watch a sitcom or comedian without seeing some joke that basically amounts to “in marriage, women either are always right, or think they’re always right, and men are mostly morons” Every commercial, every TV show, every movie has some little hook where a woman bests a man. With movies it’s more subtle, in sitcoms and commercials, men are fat, pathetic idiots that are constantly trying to win back a girl that they lost due to their own stupidity. Here’s the secret guys, she’s not worth it. Sitcom wives treat their husbands like crap. Wives on commercials are always more intelligent than the men they’re with, and they condescend them to no end. This article is part of a larger anti-male movement. I’m not suggesting a big crazy conspiracy; just that it’s fashionable to degrade men these days. Well, keep it up. I’ll play video games, and work and be happy. Get back to me when you can treat me with respect.

Hector

On January 31, 2008 at 11:39 am

They thought the same thing about films and Nickelodeons at the turn of the 20th Century. Parlors of Sin I tell you!!

globalgorrilla

On January 31, 2008 at 11:43 am

Frankly I make a good salary in tech (albeit in an expensive city) and I can’t afford to buy a souped up rig much less the time to play games. Seriously! I don’t know how some of you do it. I’m surprised I have the time to catch a few links on digg. Maybe that’s to do with church commitments and other social commitments taking time and money going into savings, ROTH, 401k, bills, rent and skiing… I’d like to get married but haven’t got the wife yet :grin: … and then there is God, and where I, with God, am going to get in this life is a mystery still to me.

Richard

On January 31, 2008 at 11:54 am

The trouble with “child-man” (or any other term used) is that it is too difficult to define. Am I a child-man if I thoroughly enjoy Finding Neverland, Finding Nemo, and Eminem? Oh, when did we stop blaming rap music for the downfall of my generation? Can I only become a real man by reading the newspaper every morning, investing my life savings on the stock market, and building crude bookcases in my garage? If I do all of those things and still play video games an above average time per day, am I again a child-man? I, and I think others, take this very personally because the term has a negative connotation and doesn’t seem to wash off no matter how good contributors we are to society.

Not that it matters, but I am a cancer researcher in my late 20s. My wife does not want to have children in the next few years because it would ruin her progression towards becoming a partner at her law firm. And I’ve logged more hours into Final Fantasy than any of the other 100+ reply posters here. She tolerates my enjoyment of gaming; and I tolerate her enjoyment of decorating the apartment.

Marcelo Abans

On January 31, 2008 at 12:01 pm

We extend our “child-like” attitude because it’s unfashionable to be men. It’s unfashionable for men to be burly, stand their ground, aruge with valid points about how things “should” be without being told how much of pigs we are. The amount of male bashing that happens is ridiculous. So when you have a generation of men that are nurtured to feel that women should run thing, you all of a sudden men that allow “mommy” to handle things. Thus us acting like children. Women have raised a .5 generation of sissies. I’m lucky enough to have a girl friend that “gets it”, who knows her place in the relationship – and by that she knows that she doesn’t need to be my mother. HA HA HA!! Video games by the way have nothing to do with it, video games barely exsisted a generation ago.

We have Video Games, you have Soaps. We have Porn, you have chick flicks. We men have long excepted our roles as men – not too sure about it now but I know I do – and women (most) have lost sight of the true values of feminism are grasping at straws of what their roles are in the world. We know what your roles are, you just refuse to accept it. Now look what this hole says, we are now no longer men if we do not reach a “social status” that isn’t acceptable to them. Good luck trying to communicate it the other way around without being called a macho pig. Wanna know why we play video games? Because you can just be so f-ing annoying that rather than punch you in the face we would rather frag someone in Halo 3. Go away and come back when you get a clue. Go ask any woman why they would vote for hilary and you’ll see some of the dumbest misguided answers ever..

John C

On January 31, 2008 at 12:18 pm

Is that fossil for real?

She really doesn’t know what its like to grow up in the Nintendo/Sega generation..

Our values are culture, freedom of speech, self development.

Video games are way more then a digital toy. They demand skills far beyond her capacities. Try playing deathmatches on Unreal and you will see what mental agility and super reflexes mean.

Some people are so good at it, its mental. Out of this world.

F3ck traditional values, f3ck marriage and job commitment. WE own the world now, we want to live life in a light, happy way. And we want to work less and play more. Because life should be a pleasant journey.

Old people tend to be square, short sighted and inflexible.

Go wipe the dust out of your smelly furniture, and worry about how your wrinkles are making you ugly and decayed.

I’d rather have a young mind and pass as a child man, then become old and shallow like Kay’s generation.

F3cking creationist like preacher.

Don’t pass judgement on the generation that will own the world.

gogo

On January 31, 2008 at 12:39 pm

Honestly; being a gamer since a young age has created a amazing drive for me to learn and create, at 12 I learned to program because I wanted to make video games as a career. I’m currently 22 and can program like a champ and have more than enough computer knowledge to fill volumes and volumes; and I am still not finished with College. All of this thanks to video games and the passion it sparked as a child growing up to want to create video games.

True story: I had a high school sweetheart as you would put it and rushing to marry almost happened…We didn’t. We had a child at 19 and didn’t know what exactly to do. I was able to support us for the time being because of a job I got as doing IT support. Today we can’t stand to see each other and the whole relationship is a mess. Today I take care of my 3 year old daughter even thought I’m a hardcore gamer; so much for rushing to get marry at a young age. Relationships are like trial and error with a lot of trial and bunch of errors; but hopefully one day you find someone, very slim chance of happening on the first tried, like getting an epic loot of a low level mob on the first kill.

If you are going to blame someone/something blame society as a whole. I think its difficult for people to live in a dynamic society especially one like ours; often the pressure to comply and adapt is so overwhelming we don’t even realize it.

Kay Hymowitz is a ing dumb as the articles she writes. Grats!

man

On January 31, 2008 at 12:59 pm

Kay’s bias wrongly paints men as the losers and women as the gender that has perfectly adapted and as victims. Please. Many men would gladly commit to women that aren’t so jaded already…jaded by society and media. Sure there are some commitment phobes..but on both sides. I’ve seen plenty of women so in love with themselves and their careers and jaded that they need serious counseling before even entering into a relationship.
Sorry Kay, we men are the wise ones here…holding out for a girl not filled with mysogynistic traits like you. :wink:

Andi

On January 31, 2008 at 1:24 pm

As a woman married to a child-man I found parts of this article true in SOME cases. Video games definitely don’t make a child-man (or woman), but can be a symptom of one. It’s true that a man or woman spending 3 hours in front of the t.v. is the same as one spending 3 in front of the game console, if he/she never speaks to anyone and is completely self-absorbed when watching t.v. Either way, three hours of doing either activity is lazy in my view. I personally don’t know a lot of people (besides my husband) with three hours a day to sit on their a$$. It’s part of the reason so many peopole are so fat nowadays.

My hubby spends most of his day gaming, is unemployed and can’t lift a finger around the house or spend time with our son. I’m the sole provider, working full time, doing all of the bills and paperwork as well as all of the housework and child rearing. So I take exception to the immature chauvenist men who keep commenting on money-grubbing self-obsessed women in my generation. I’m 26, and I’ve been working my butt off in the workforce since I was 15. It’s been my experience among my peers that more and more women are bringing home the bacon and cooking it up while so many young men enjoy the free ride, often without taking on other responsibilities like housework. I know this is NOT the case everywhere, but it is an unhealthy, unjust trend.

Brendon

On January 31, 2008 at 1:28 pm

Don’t feed or tease the straight people.

Kent

On January 31, 2008 at 2:17 pm

I wish that there was a full transcript from what this woman had said. I do not like only getting a part of the story. Many of you before me have mentioned several reasons why this women is being mislead by her information. It seems to me that such an intelligent woman would be able to understand that it was with her generation and the one directly before hers that divorce became more common place than its alternative. That being the case it seems that generation X and the subsequent generations will come to be more turned off to marriage as more people experience the troubles and the pains that are a result of these higher divorce rates. Also maybe our generations are less prepared to settle for that one person that is good enough. Plenty of people my age (mid-20s) have too much on their action-item lists as it stands now, and an hour or two spent playing video games is all we can do to relax after going to work all day then to our evening class at the university, and maybe even another job. I know there are a few out there that make Kay Hymowitz’s point for her, but they are the exception and not the point. Maybe she should start studying more about her own generation , and how they screwed up the world for us that are forced to follow.

Serrenity

On January 31, 2008 at 2:29 pm

This women infuriates me. In one foul stroke, she belittles both men and women. Disgusting ….

In response to an earlier post, I would never trust anything I hear on “Judge Judy,” a farce of the judicial system.

TC

On January 31, 2008 at 2:51 pm

It seems as if there are more and more of these ignorant comments made by media personell every day. I myself am an avid ‘gamer’ with a 4-year university degree. At the age of 26 I work at 2 part time jobs with fairly decent wages, part-time because they don’t want to pay benefits though; great economy. I am currently working towards a second degree that will double the salary of having the first one alone. I am engaged and plan to marry in July. I plan to have children but not ANYTIME soon. Our economy is terrible and the state of our society in general is horrible, so I don’t really want to try and bring up a child right now. I know, I know, blame it on Bush. It’s about time that people start to accept responsibility and quit looking to the government for help. They don’t care about us and never will. All they care for is our ‘vote’ so that they have a ridiculous salary and lifetime benefits. They don’t care about Social Security, they don’t need it. They don’t care about health insurance, they will always have it. But go ahead, let them invent another government agency like health care so they can screw it up too. We have to make it on our own, and ‘own’ doesnt include welfare either. Why would the ghettos want to ‘grow up’ when they get 3rd or 4th generation welfare(allowance) from daddy (govt).

Edward

On January 31, 2008 at 2:59 pm

What on earth did she think would happen with out of control feminism degrading, humiliating, demotivating, and discriminating against men?

G

On January 31, 2008 at 3:01 pm

In response do Andy,

I see how that could definitely be a problem with your husband. I have a brother-in-law that does this same thing with neglecting his child. As a gamer myself, I have one part-time job, and 2 freelance jobs while attending a university. MOST people I know that play video games have their priorties straightened out. I know classes come first, work a close second. If I EVER play video games without making sure the house is picked up,dinner is taken care of, be it paying for it, making it, or helping make it my fiance would definitely let me know. Children also come first no matter what. Even when my niece is over she comes before games, all family does, or should. I don’t see how he/ your husband could even relax enough to play games if he is unemployed and neglecting everything around him. Maybe he wont change, it may be time for you to move on. But don’t let that experience with someone who plays video game be the ‘rule’, only the exception. My fiance enjoys her time watching her t.v. shows or reading a good book. But we know when we need to spend time with eachother.

Bret

On January 31, 2008 at 3:21 pm

Sounds like Claire/Hymmowitz might have gotten knocked up, eh? Who needs work when there’s video games. I’ll be financially set in life, I plan on winning the lottery!

LJ

On January 31, 2008 at 4:45 pm

im from south africa, over population is a , please dont have any more children America :( we are dying over here!!!!!

Stephen Timothy Cooney

On January 31, 2008 at 5:14 pm

I am glad you broke apart her argument the way you did. One thing you said did make me upset though. You claim that literature is not something this generation engages in. Why is that? Right now, a tremendous amount of people in my generation took time to read and analyze your article. The Internet is a selective medium of any kind: Literature, Music, Video, Games, etc. People engage in more reading and knowledge now than ever before. Look at youtube, google and wikipedia. :mrgreen:

Shawn Sines

On January 31, 2008 at 5:32 pm

@Stephen: When I was speaking of literature I was referring to it in the classic sense – not the modern sense of reading and information ingestion. I don;t know of a lot of men or women in my age group who are literature buffs. There is a segment of my peer group of course (being a lot of writers and the like) who are but the primary form of entertainment many of my friends ingest is television, youtube and internet related, not Barnes & Nobles related to continue the generalization.

I also have children who don;t seem to understand the attraction of books but love to read websites – that is more the point I meant to illustrate, not that we are not literate minded. Sorry if that was not clear.

patrick

On January 31, 2008 at 9:52 pm

Most women don’t want children anymore. If they’re happy with a
puppy and a netflix account, there’s no reason for men to grow-up.

yeah

On February 1, 2008 at 7:29 am

Imagine her poor husband… Probably dying to get his hands on a PS3

Dr. NW

On February 1, 2008 at 7:38 am

With obesity now afflicting around 30% of the population of the United States, I’d say that it’s much more difficult these days for a man to find a woman who is sexual desirable and with whom he would like to procreate. I believe there is a correlation there, but it needs to be studied.

Thallia

On February 1, 2008 at 10:20 am

Interesting that Hymowitz doesn’t address people like me, and there are a lot of us: 30-something women who were told to work hard and become independent, who now have solid careers and nice houses (and maybe designer clothes and shoes, though I’m not into that myself) but no committed relationships with men because we were told by our mother’s generation that we didn’t need them. That’s the real cost of the feminist movement.

Lord Garrius

On February 1, 2008 at 11:40 am

I put the blame squarely on the NOW crowd. Lets face it, in the past the reason most men got married was because they wanted/needed to have sex on a regular basis. They may also like the girl and that was bonus. But sex was biggest driving factor. Well, since the feminists decided that the old rules of women playing the hard to get were old fashioned and needed to be discarded, men now have the best of both worlds. This maybe shallow by why would a man commit to any one woman when he knows he can go out to a bar any night of the week, meet some nice girl and have sex with her that same night. Why buy the cow when you’re getting the milk for free? Anyway, just my two cents.

Susan Anderson

On February 1, 2008 at 2:27 pm

I agree with previous posters that it’s all about economics. The fact is, even a lavish “Sex and the City” lifestyle, with dinners out and expensive shoes and vacations, is far cheaper than trying to afford even one child, what with the cost of daycare. So people are making a rational economic decision to be hedonistic over “responsible” given the choices available.

Bob Dobalina

On February 1, 2008 at 2:47 pm

And women are the typical homemakers of generations past??

Bah!

ManOfTeal

On February 1, 2008 at 5:00 pm

I like pie

somewhat

On February 1, 2008 at 7:43 pm

@ IAN about half way up
FUTURAMA !
(36 years old, and proud to be a kid !)

DinaBeans

On February 2, 2008 at 7:29 am

Well it is the same for women too, at mid thirties they like to meet friends and sit in coffee shops rather then take care of children and husband,

John

On February 2, 2008 at 7:33 am

My favourite bit: “The SYM doesn’t read much, remember, and he certainly doesn’t read anything prescribing personal transformation.”

Because healthy adults read nothing but self-help books?

TheManOnTheStreet

On February 2, 2008 at 10:18 am

Fell for it.. the lot of you. What better way to get your name out there in the “editorial world” than to put something forth that will undoubtedly piss off a few thousand folks?

She probably doesn’t even believe what she wrote. She KNEW it would garner “contraversial dialogues”…. that is why she did it.

Attention whore.. nothing more. Indicated by the constant links back…

TMOTS

Hoh

On February 3, 2008 at 1:07 pm

I blame black people for the man-child problem!

JC Prime

On February 5, 2008 at 5:01 pm

All I can say is this, and I relize it may sound lame “With great power comes greater responsibility”. Yes, it’s a Spider-man quote but it holds true.
Marriage and children are a responsibility NOT an obligation. You have the power to CHOOSE when or if to get married and have children.
You don’t get married if both aren’t ready for it. You DO NOT have children if one or both of you feels “it’s not the right time”.

What people need to understand is that it’s not about pressure, it’s not about obligation, it’s not about social roles in society, it’s 100% all abour taking responsibility. If you and your partner are NOT ready, DO NOT DO IT!
It has nothing to do with being immature, in fact it’s the opposite. There is nothing more mature than deciding if the time to marry or have children is right or not.
Do you REALLY think forcing 2 people who aren’t ready to marry and have children is a GOOD thing? That’s about as immature and irresposible as it gets.
Forget the “man-child” video game argument! Think about the childrens future first. If you are a man and content playing video games and not ready for wife and kids, do what feels right. If you are a woman content on buying shoes, purses and hats and not ready for a husband and kids, do what feels right.
Whatever the leissure activity may be, be it video games or materialistic needs (both male and female) you need to do what YOU feel is best and not what people tell you is best. (irony 101 = feel free to disregard this post if you’d like since i’m sort of in a way telling people what to do. Well, maybe more of a suggestion) lol.
The point is, be responsible first!

Candide

On February 7, 2008 at 1:20 am

@Andi. Welcome to the deal the modern married MAN is expected to uphold. Were the circumstances reversed, the response would be to “grow a pair, suck it up and deal”. I’d bet you’d REALLY appreciate it were that “slacker” man of yours were to divorce you, get the kids, the house, along with 1/2 of YOUR “imputed” income AND child support while he s you around over custody. NOW do you appreciate why men suffer from a wimpy “fear of commitment”? Notice, too that the term wimp ONLY applies to men.

C

On February 11, 2008 at 9:39 am

I don’t need to read this womans stupid story, most men lived with their Mother for 18 years already so understand the psyche. I cancelled my cable because I grew tired of watching the denigration of men. I like video games because it is a GREAT stress killer. Plenty of women make great friends and lovers, but men tire of pissing around with the life of the American woman dream. Obviously, from what the media broadcasts I’m supposed to be her slave. Well, haha, with the feminist movement the way it is I’m much happier being and living alone. Chasing women was the biggest waste of time out of everything I’ve done in life so far.

unhappily married with kids

On September 29, 2008 at 4:36 pm

I would love to go back to being single without kids. I love my kids, but do sometimes resent them.I work and work and work to support them and my lazy “babysitting” wife who breathes down my neck about every damn thing I buy even though Im the one who makes most of the money and she could not hold down a job. If I have any advice for the guys reading this….STAY a Child-Man and focus on YOUR happiness. or just try to marry the right person. I made the mistake of marrying the wrong one and am basically stuck with it or I lose everything probably even my kids.

Dude

On October 7, 2008 at 1:18 pm

” UNHAPPILY ”

I totally Relate! Except I am already divorced. I am much happier, by the way. I have two kids. A boy and a girl. My ex-wife has them one week, I the next, and so on and so on.They are four and six. My ex is happier also.We just grew apart and I think we were not particularly right for each other in the first place.She was a snooty perfectionist and I am a video game playing rocker type. I have met someone new and we have tons in common and the kids love her. My ex has also found someone new who is more her type. Neither of us has remarried, but it seems it will be in the cards. So, what I am getting at I guess is that the video games are not a child-man thing. It is a personality thing.There ARE female gamers.Also, UNHAPPILY…. you may want to consider divorce. You DO NOT want to feel STUCK for the rest of your life. I doubt your wife would take your kids away from you.No mother would deny a Father for their Child. No if they are in their right mind.

married girl

On October 7, 2008 at 1:20 pm

Games are fine as long as everything else in life balances out.

Semper Fi Guy

On October 13, 2008 at 1:50 pm

Unhappily Married with Kids. its like you are describing my life.Its freaky. I just want to let you know that you are not alone. I have been planning on leaving my wife since just a while after my first son was born. The only reason I have not after two more kids later is that she would probably get everything so I have just had a relationship on the side. I know it is wrong but the side woman is who feels right to me.

Aliya

On October 22, 2008 at 4:52 pm

“bill says:
January 30th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
“Young men were no longer rushing to the alter or marrying childhood sweethearts and she seems to place the cause of this on games for one.”

Well, it could be that…or maybe it’s the fact that garbage like Sex and the City has turned at least 75% of girls in our age bracket into semi-psychotic materialistic airheads with a single thought process (“affection = handbags/jewelry”) that make relatively normal guys like myself shudder at the thought of settling down with one. No thanks, I’ll keep playing Mass Effect and dating around until I find one that doesn’t make me want to gnaw on broken glass.”

LOL! I am a Woman and I agree With You Bill.I don’t even like to be around MY OWN KIND! They talk about Shoes,Coach Purses, and Diamond Tennis Bracelets. I can’t stand Greedy, Consumer Driven Women!

Mrs. Child man

On July 26, 2009 at 1:59 pm

I am a 23 year old married woman and consider both myself and my 24 year old husband child man and child woman.We love to play games, relax, go out to eat, and really enjoy immature movies. I mean, we are financially independant, own our own home, and are married of course but we are in no ways looking to “grow up” because I’ve watched people “grow up”, have kids,take life too seriously, and stop living for the moment.I want no part of it and probabky never will.

Chris

On May 19, 2011 at 2:12 pm

Its your own fault ladies……the feminist movement contended that “we don’t need men” so now you are stuck with your underachieving sons that you indulged while raising them. You bought into his every excuse and he learned very quickly of your pathetic attempts to discipline and teach responsibility. So now they are all immature blah blah until you need to fight a war, put out a fire arrest a criminal, or need someone to put a steel-toed boot up your unruly son’s ass!!! As far a marriage and child raising….I’m stuck with it now, but if I could do it all over again, there is no way it would happen……wise up..no one is worth investing 30 yrs or even 5 yrs of your life into

Watch Napoleon Dynamite Online

On April 5, 2012 at 11:30 pm

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Hemlock3630

On July 1, 2014 at 7:45 am

o.O <– My reaction to reading the quotes from Hymowitz's article. She kind of sounds like my mother. Except I'm female.

I'm 40, married, have a kid, a full time job, hobbies, cook/bake/brew/pickle/jam/can, own a house, have a masters degree in engineering, like cartoons/comics, but *gasp* my favorite past time is playing video games for a couple of hours almost every night and I'm told by my mother all the time to "grow up" . She uses the 'plays video games' as the reason why I'm not grown up. Well, I'd say by the usual metrics of how we define a 'grown-up' I've achieved that.

So I'm with the guys on this one. Using video games as your form of entertainment is just as valid as sitting and watching 2 hours of TV a night (be it sports, cartoons, serieal comedies, cooking shows or what not).

I also think, as brought up in the article, that she's placing the blame squarely on the shoulders of guys. Man, if I was a guy there's no way I'd want to marry the 'media deptiction' of the current crop of females ….I agree that there has been a 'Sex and the Cityification' of women. Guys can continue to child-men because gals are also child-women.

Life is too long to be taken so seriously.