A2 Hangs in the Balance -1 reply

  • 1
  • 2

Please wait...

Guest

I didn't make it!

0 XP

 
#1 9 years ago

Now that we're discussing ship sizes in another thread, I thought it was high time a discussion was started about game balance issues. "Balance" in a game can mean many different things to many different people. We see mods all the time which "are balanced to Stock". I'm guilty of this myself in a lot of my mods. What does this phrase really mean? I do not think the Stock game is balanced at all. There are numerous posts throughout this forum which state the same thing.

So how do we go about truly balancing the game? Does "balance" mean Faction B's heavy cruiser is exactly the same as Faction A's in all the particulars? Do people really want an AI-controlled faction to have any chance at all of winning against their favorite ships? After all, if I spend two weeks making a ship from scratch, I really want it to have an impact on the game, right?




FallenGraces

To Each His Own

50 XP

18th October 2008

0 Uploads

422 Posts

0 Threads

#2 9 years ago

thunderfoot006;4927539 So how do we go about truly balancing the game? Does "balance" mean Faction B's heavy cruiser is exactly the same as Faction A's in all the particulars?[/QUOTE]

I tend to think that this is what most people define as a 'balanced" game but i see it as hours of modding shot to hell. I mean if each and every ship is the exact same specs wise then it becomes lil more than who can get to what faster to build more and rush the opponont. Now while i believe that every race should have its own strengeth and weaknesses i also believe that some from of equalitly should be implemented to stop GOD races from emerging. My build follows one of the oldest forms of balance Feds are for the most part all around even ship,tech,and station wise. Klingons have only the stock stations and 1 or 2 extra ships. All of which are monster like but they take a while to build consume a decent more than the other races ships of the same class and are slower in combat. Romies on the other hand have a lot of stations and their construction ship cloaks letting them build outpost class stations deep in enemy territory. They have more specials and their ships are the cheapest, but stations cost more and the ships are the weakest of any of the classes but ALL ships have a defenseive special and some even have an offensive special. The 8472...actually i havent got to them yet so i cant say much on the subject :p. Finally the Borg...the entire reason i started the "Perfect Borg" thread, one of the Hardest races to "balance" to the others. They have less ships than stock and their ships are 2x stronger than the klingons, but require massive amounts of time and materials to make, are slow, and only have a maximum of 2 specials and only for stage 2 ships. The stations are weaker than average seeing as the only real station ever seen used by the borg is the Nexus and well....the thing was massive. But the ships are as close to wolf 359 specs as possible without making them overkill.

[QUOTE=thunderfoot006;4927539] Do people really want an AI-controlled faction to have any chance at all of winning against their favorite ships? After all, if I spend two weeks making a ship from scratch, I really want it to have an impact on the game, right?

Can't speak for others but i WANNA get my arse beat by the AI- i mean i look look at the admirals log and see defeat, defeat, defeat, draw, and an occasional victory and i smile i mean that means it was a great game. I mean yeah i get a ship throw it in there and wanna see its damage but if you keep doing that you end up with a God race and lose interest in Armada. And any way its fun to have a match that you cant finish in a day i mean the constant defense needed kinda removes the hit and run tactics out of the game and implements out-of-the-box thinking. Screw my pride im here for fun:D




Guest

I didn't make it!

0 XP

 
#3 9 years ago

I'd like a look at those Borg of your, FG. When I send you the planets will you please send me a copy of the Borg you use?




Freyr VIP Member

A2Files Staff

46,875 XP

6th February 2005

11 Uploads

4,275 Posts

0 Threads

#4 9 years ago

Personally, I consider balance to mean that any race should be equally capable of winning a match. As long as they are balanced in such a way that makes this possible, I don't care.

Regardless of what most people say, stock is balanced.

The problem is that people keep trying to play all of the games in exactly the same way. They try and apply the same tactics they use playing as the Klingons to the Romulans and find they don't work. The Romulans require you to be sneaky and devious to win.

The Romulans are generally considered to be the weakest stock race. I've yet to meet someone that holds that opinion after playing a multiplayer game against me.




Warborg

Revenge was here.

50 XP

3rd August 2002

0 Uploads

1,833 Posts

0 Threads

#5 9 years ago

Freyr;4927727

The Romulans are generally considered to be the weakest stock race. I've yet to meet someone that holds that opinion after playing a multiplayer game against me.

I can't speak much on A2 as I've not spent alot of time with them but in A1, I used them alot, in fact they were the race I used in the final mission.

I personally think some of the ships are too balanced where as others are different. I don't think Borg should have been thrown into this.

On my hard borg mod I created as a result of the other thread. I've noticed if I also play as them the AI borg come after me first everytime(Biggest threat?), and they do wipe me out. However if they(hard borg) are not included, the other races are no match against me when I play them. So, there is no balance here. The key would be team up with other Ai players to 'try' to win.




FallenGraces

To Each His Own

50 XP

18th October 2008

0 Uploads

422 Posts

0 Threads

#6 9 years ago
thunderfoot006;4927696I'd like a look at those Borg of your, FG. When I send you the planets will you please send me a copy of the Borg you use?

id be happy to :nodding: i just need to finish them....im having some issues , gotta tweak the build times but yeah as soon as i finish em i'll get em to you...btw the ones i'll send would be stock ones,i haven't added the new models to my install im still working the Romies into it and just finished the feds so it might be a while...




Guest

I didn't make it!

0 XP

 
#7 9 years ago

Actually I have no problems with the Stock Borg models at all. Some of the textures are pretty decent after some slight tweaking. At least this way I won't have to rescale everything again.




PreciousRoy

I want to be like the Admins

50 XP

2nd June 2007

0 Uploads

223 Posts

0 Threads

#8 9 years ago

This is a kind of chart I made when I was trying to figure out a balance scale...

Balance.jpg

This was no great difficulty to determine. Out of eighteen points total, you spread the points (up to five) in those areas you feel best exemplify the race. For the Borg, I chose zero Stealth, meaning they'd have an advantage elsewhere. I gave them moderate sensors and great on every other aspect. (I've considered taking this to a scale of 20 points and making resource-gathering a column... the Cardys would sure get high marks there.)

What came later (and after seeing this done in FO) was a realization that both early game balance and end game balance need to jive. If the Federation can't do much to take out a Borg builder ship, then once we survive the inital fights and are starting to heavy assault each other, my clear advantage needs to show (which, by this chart, should be Sensors, Shields, and Special Weapons).




Guest

I didn't make it!

0 XP

 
#9 9 years ago

It helps Roy. It helps a lot. What I am really trying to do is get people to think outside the box about A2. There are eight years' worth of preconceived notions about this game and I'm hoping someone will send in tomorrow the mod which rocks this Community all the way down to the foundation. I get a real kick outta watching people look at a mod and say, "Wow! I had no idea we could do this with A2!" As long as someone is doing this, the game and the Community, whom I consider my online family, will flourish.




StarBlade

www.starbase34.net

50 XP

7th January 2006

0 Uploads

1,705 Posts

0 Threads

#10 9 years ago
thunderfoot006;4927539Does "balance" mean Faction B's heavy cruiser is exactly the same as Faction A's in all the particulars?

No, it means Faction B's heavy cruiser can be defeated by my all-powerful scoutship that never dies, heals itself instantly, fires transphasic quantum tricobalt shockwave mega torpedoes and eats Klingons for breakfast.....

Everyone's idea of "balance" is different. I don't think it's unfair to suggest that most concepts of 'balance' indicate a severe preferentiality in probability. I know I'm definitely guilty of this-- it was very difficult in balancing the whole of the Starfleet compilation mod to actually work against stock. The hardest part of balancing, for me, personally, wasn't so much hitpoints and hardpoints as it was weapons placement and availability (specials and standard weapons alike). So far the only complaints I've gotten have been about people who can't get the mod to work. Nobody's suggested we released a mod that was tipped towards Starfleet's favour. I'm kinda proud of that.

Still, game balance is a critical factor because not only does it require the gamer to actually express some situational awareness beyond simply building a turret-wrapped foxhole in space, but it also creates the possibility of random chance operating on behalf of, or against, the player. The ultimate expression of this element, to me, comes in the form of the damnable Romulan Shadow class vessel. Never in my fifteen or so years of gaming has there been a more hated device than the Holo-Emitter. And that's saying something.

You need game balance to keep things interesting. Asymmetrical warfare, diversionary tactics, Fabian strategy.... the true genius in Armada II is that it refuses to allow you to win only one way. A good player can use any strategy they want with any given race. A great player can win doing so. After all, why not play if not to win-- and why keep playing if you win the same way every time?

:cool:




  • 1
  • 2