Why the M16? -1 reply

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FlyingBarMitzvah

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14th December 2005

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#1 14 years ago

I was playing BF2 earlier today, and I began to contemplate how much I hate the M16. And then I wondered...why the hell is the M16 still the main battle rifle of the US Army? I hate that 3 round burst. The 3 round burst on the main battle rifle implement in (duh) Vietnam on the original M16, (20 round clip, jammed all the time) because the US Armed forces considered volume of fire was more important than individual marksmanship. This is shown to be true by the fact that, and this is an estimate from memory, because I read a book on this a while back but cant remember the exact numbers, but about 50000 rounds of ammo were expended for every kill as opposed to something like 100 for WW2.

Why doesn't the US Army switch over to fully automatic weapons instead of this 3-round burst crap? I know it would be expensive to switch to another weapon, but wouldn't it be simple to switch out a few parts to mod the M16 to be fully automatic? Does the M16 jam with fully-automatic capability?

Am I wrong?

If I am wrong with any of my info, feel free to point it out, as long as you don't call me a moron or something.




IAmAMoron

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26th February 2004

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#2 14 years ago

2 things 1: Ever heard of the fire switch button? One some M16 varients (either the M16A1 or M16A2, not sure), it has the option of semi auto and full auto. 2: The US is in development of a new assult rifle to replace the M16 and the M4 carbines called the XM8 (notice the X) which colud also be configuered to a sharpshooting gun and a support gun. xm8.jpg (Best one i could find, had to sort through all the video and airsoft gun crap.) And look at this rate of fire switcher on the XM8. (notice the semi and full auto) g36kvtrig2.jpg




FlyingBarMitzvah

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14th December 2005

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#3 14 years ago

While I'm sure there are full-auto variants of the M16, why aren't they in BF2? Or America's Army for that matter? If they aren't in America's Army, the "most realistic" army simulation, then the full-auto variants cant be THAT prevalent.




SciComHam

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28th November 2004

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#4 14 years ago

There were rumours of a full auto m16 in BF2, it was used in refernce to the ranking system I believe. The idea being that say PFCs could use it, while Pvts could not

Also, I thought the next US main assault rifle was a variant of the M249 SAW, with a clip instead of a drum?




psyichic

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11th February 2003

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#5 14 years ago

Realistic AA? Nope try Operation Flashpoint, Sure the physics engine is utter crap but its essentially Battlefield in a super reaqlistic mode. Ever see in AA someone get their legs shot so many times they must crawl? And no health indicator? Gotta love those laser guided bombs as well :D and being able to fire a Sabot round into a tank's crew compartment and kill individuals without killing the entire tank, Plus the ability to shoot out wheels and blow up treads on tanks or even blow up its main cannon.

Anyways yea they are going to phase the XM8 in now instead of the M16. And the use of the full auto wasnt really there. I also think many people in the army probably adjusted to burst mode. I mean it fires three shots and in that time you can just click madly and its pretty much full auto.




{SWAT}sgt.Adam

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13th December 2004

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#6 14 years ago

ok here we go:

1. The XM8 project has been canceled, it has a chance of being started again but thats very unlikely right now

2. The original AR-15, M-16 and M-16A1 rifles fired full auto. the variants that do (M-16A2, M-16A4) did not come into service until after vietnam (the M-16A2, the standard rifle used now, wasnt adopted until 1985) Also the weapon jam issue was fixed with the M-16A1 model, the only way i can jam now is if it is never cleaned (or some other form of neglect). The jam problem was due to the fact the soliders were told that the gun required no cleaning, even though it required cleaning often, and the fact that no cleaning kits were issued. It jammed even easier than the original weapon would of due to lack of cleaning because of a change in the propellent of the cartridge as demanded by the US Military, which made it get dirty faster than its original propellent would have.

3. There is a modern variant the fires full auto - the M-16A3, but it has no burst, just safe, semi, and auto. it was originally sold to the Navy for the SEAL's, however I have read that it is in active service in all branches. But I doubt that every solider uses one, which is most likely why you dont see it much in games.

As for the original question, I think the 3 round burst is used because the military was concerned that raw recrutes couldnt handle full auto fire and still be accurrate. Im not 100% on this, but I have read about it before. Also, I think it could possibly be to help soldiers maintain accuracy rather than "spraying and praying" and to reduce the number of bullets used on each enemy soldier. Seeing that 3rnd burst wasnt around until after Vietnam, your statement of soliders useing 50000 rnds per enemy in Vietnam compared to 100 rnds per enemy in WW2 might be why the change was made.

btw: I used a weapons enyclopedia (Military Small Arms of the 20th Century to be more exact) and wikipedia to double check some of this info, so im pretty sure it is correct.




Carazor

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29th December 2005

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#7 14 years ago

Actually, I'm pretty sure that raw recruits had to practise firing fully automatic to make sure they can handle the maximum recoil of the weapon. Obviously, they would train in single shots first to know how accurate their weapon is. You don't usually see special forces with burst weapons, because they are familiar with their weapons and they know how to limit their fire to one or two shots. (eg. M16A2's for recruits, M4A1's for SF - originally anyways). Burst-fire was invented, I'm fairly sure, because of units that weren't always in combat. Because they have never been in live combat, they tend to fire in automatic. Burst was implemented to make sure they don't waste ammo or they don't hit friendlies. Another reason for burst: special police (SWAT, etc.). They are in an urban environment and possibly a hostage situation. You REALLY don't want to fire in full automatic in a delicate situation like that. The reason they used so many rounds in Vietnam was because it was a guerilla fight in a lot of places; Marines were literally shooting randomly into the bushes because most of the time they have no idea where the shots are coming from (it's a jungle in quite a few places, after all). And WW2 was WORST (definitely not a 100 rounds per soldier), because most armies were very reliant on MGs.




{SWAT}sgt.Adam

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13th December 2004

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#8 14 years ago

SciComHamThere were rumours of a full auto m16 in BF2, it was used in refernce to the ranking system I believe. The idea being that say PFCs could use it, while Pvts could not

Also, I thought the next US main assault rifle was a variant of the M249 SAW, with a clip instead of a drum?

I know the SCAR, being developed by Belgium and the US, is similar to the M249 SAW internaly (actually only the bolt system is), that might be it.

I remember I saw something like what your talking about on The Specialists (the HL1 mod) fourms. It was an attachment for the AR-15 or M4A1 that converted it to a belt fed weapon with a foward grip. Its not being considered my the US military, but it still looks cool lol. Picture below! (ok so it isnt a SAW converted to fire from a clip instead of a belt, but close enough)

03a-shrike-006.jpg




Carazor

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29th December 2005

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#9 14 years ago

I guess that can a light support weapon? Looks really nice though. Small carbine with big bang :). But I don't want to think how bad the recoil will be.




Bassist13

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25th June 2005

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#10 14 years ago

The recoil would be bad if you were firing a full burst without short 2-5 round bursts, the SCAR is the Seals new assault rifle right now and M249 will not be replaced for a while although the M240 wasn't in the game and that is used by the Marines. M16's haven't been used as much in Iraq, M4 SOPMODS (the M4 in game with rails on the foregrip for attachments like a handle or M203/Masterkey Shotgun. Only god knows when the U.S. Army is going to adopt a new rifle but the XM8 was heavily favored by the Marines and there is always the chance of the program being initiated again, or we could use whatever HK comes out with next. (P.S. I think the M16 is nice, get over the fact that we are using it and not some gun made out of plastic.