One aircraft modification (Defiant), one addition (KingCobra) -1 reply

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LeopardSeal

Back in the "Good old days"...

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20th December 2003

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#1 14 years ago

First off, could FH please add an aiming reticule to the Defiant? (Please no "The Defiant's useless" comments) I find it strange not to have one when flying in nose-cam view, and it makes it harder to accurately drop it's one bomb. (I'm no Ace) Secondly, what are the chances of giving the Russians the Bell P-63A KingCobra? I understand that your plates are really full right now, and we all appreciate the quailty models that we've been seeing, so this would definitely be for some where in the future. The Russians only got 2421 of them from the states, but they worked really well as a ground attack plane for them. And Russia getting an aircraft that can carry 3 500lb bombs would definitely help on those Panzer-heavy maps. Anyway, heres a few pics of the P-63A. milaerocobra.jpg00405.jpgp63-03.jpg If you need more detailed drawings/pics or specs, I'd be happy to provide them. Just as a side note, the Free French Forces used the P-63A as well, so with another skin it could work in late-war French maps too.




emonkies

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17th July 2003

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#2 14 years ago

One slight problem with putting a KingCobra in FH.

The only combat use and kill EVER for a P-63 was over the Kurile Islands and it was thought to be a Ki-43 Hayabusa.

Several German pilots swear they got kills on P-63's but Russian records show the P-63 was in Operational training units and were not stationed in the combat zones.

The French P-63's did not see combat in WW2 and were used postwar in Algiers and Indochina for ground attack missions.




LeopardSeal

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#3 14 years ago
Anlushac11One slight problem with putting a KingCobra in FH. The only combat use and kill EVER for a P-63 was over the Kurile Islands and it was thought to be a Ki-43 Hayabusa. Several German pilots swear they got kills on P-63's but Russian records show the P-63 was in Operational training units and were not stationed in the combat zones. The French P-63's did not see combat in WW2 and were used postwar in Algiers and Indochina for ground attack missions.

Russia didn't have the luxury of being picky about which lend-lease aircraft they used. It is possible that Russia wanted to understate the aircrafts value and therefore didn't show it in active service. As well, many Russian "training units" saw combat late in the war. Added Note: Neither the Red Army Museum in Moscow nor the Soviet Air Force Museum makes any mention of Soviet use of American aircraft during WWII or that the Western Allies even participated in that war. (souce: USAF Museum website) Numerous reports state that the Russians found the P-63A to be a excellent ground-attack aircraft, which could only be bourne out in combat. As for sightings, the P-63A looks similar to the P-39, and could easily have been mistaken fo the smaller aircraft in the heat of battle. The French received 300 P-63As and only sent some of them to Indo-China, where as you stated they did indeed see combat after the war. The rest remained in Europe, where they certainly would have been used by the small Free French Airforce.




emonkies

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#4 14 years ago

Here is a link to the Russian Federation Air Force Museum at Monino. If you scroll down to the section on aircraft listed on display from the period of the Great Patriotic War you will notice one listed is a P-63 Kingcobra

This is the link to the picture of the P-63 at Monino

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/Riabsev/2201.htm

On display as museum quality models representing aircraft flown by the VVS is a Aerocobra P-39. For many years Monino has been closed to the general public. It wasnt until recently that it was turned into a public museum.

A copy to a link with info on the French P-63's

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p63_17.html

http://www.monino.com/avia/company/monino/e_monino/expo.htm

Copy of a article concerning the P-63 in Russian service. My apologies of not knowing the source. I obtained it from this forum thread.

http://www.netwings.org/dcforum/DCForumID2/700.html

Since the Airacobra was such a success in Russia, naturally the Soviets would be a major recipient of its bigger brother, the P-63. They were sent 2456 Kingcobras, flown across the Al-Sib ferry route, of which 2421 actually arrived, including both major variants, the P-63A and P-63C. However, contrary to Dorr and other western authors, it did not prove to be a potent tank-buster. It never got a chance. Only in September 1944 did the first P-63 begin it's long journey across two continents, from Buffalo, New York to Russia. By May 1945 there were only 51 P-63As in service, assigned to PVO air defense regiments, which by that stage of the war had little real chance of combat. Consequently, the P-63 never got to show its stuff against either a panzer or a "messer". However, the P-63 did see brief combat in Russian service. Soviet units continued reequipping after the German surrender. Many P-63s went to Soviet units assigned to the Far East and Transbaikal Fronts preparing for war against Japan. The 12th Air Army of the Trasnbaikal Front equipped its 245 IAD, consisting of the 940 and 781 IAPS. This Air Army was reinforced after the German surrender by the transfer from the west of the 190 IAD which included the 17 IAP and 21 IAP, both of which replaced their P-39Q and La-5 fighters with the Kingcobra. One of the pilots of the 17 IAP was Captain Viacheslav Sirotin, HSU, a 21 victory ace. On August 15, he and his wingman, Junior Lieutenant Miroshnichenko caught 2 Japanese fighters (either Ki-27 or Ki-43, the records are unclear), and shot down one of them. This was the Kingcobra's only aerial victory - ever.

In July 1945 the 128 SAD (mixed air division), with the 888 IAP and 410 ShAP (assault air regiment) based on Kamchatka converted to the P-63. The Shturmovik Regiment at this time was redesignated as Fighter. Interestingly, the 888 IAP was the very last regiment flying the old I-16; transition to the 410 mph, tricycle gear P-63A must have made an impression! Also, during the summer of 1945 the 7 IAD of the Pacific Ocean Fleet received several dozen aircraft in time to fly them during the brief hostilities.




LeopardSeal

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#5 14 years ago

There seems to be an abundance of conflicting reports. What you believe depends on which sources you trust. I guess it's left to individal opinion. All I can say it that mine hasen't changed regarding P-63A's in Russia. Also, I didn't say that the Russians never acknowledged using American aircraft, I was using that quote as an example of how information is distorted. A lot of this information from the Russian government didn't come out until recently, many years after the fact. That leaves a lot of time for information to become lost/corrupted/changed. As for the French, upon further digging it appears that you are correct in that they did not use the P-63 in Europe. When I first mentioned it, it was only meant as a passing idea, based on limited information.




emonkies

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17th July 2003

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#6 14 years ago

Cpl. Mercutio Added Note: Neither the Red Army Museum in Moscow nor the Soviet Air Force Museum makes any mention of Soviet use of American aircraft during WWII or that the Western Allies even participated in that war. (souce: USAF Museum website) [/QUOTE]

That is your quote not mine. I have shown you proof that the Russians have a real P-63 on display at Monino and that there is a scale model P-39 on display at Monino. The only documented surviving Soviet P-39 I have heard of is in the Finnish Air Force Museum and the Russians have expressed interest in obtaining it.

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/blenheim2001/p39001.jpg

[QUOTE=Cpl. Mercutio] Numerous reports state that the Russians found the P-63A to be a excellent ground-attack aircraft, which could only be bourne out in combat.

Please provide a link or book title that has credible information on the P-63 being used in combat as a ground attack aircraft. I would be interested in reading your information.




LeopardSeal

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#7 14 years ago
Anlushac11Please provide a link or book title that has credible information on the P-63 being used in combat as a ground attack aircraft. I would be interested in reading your information.

I don't believe that every simple discussion should always include numerous footnotes, but since you asked, here are a few for starters: Aircraft of World War 2 by Robert Jackson http://www.warbirdalley.com/p63.htm [color=black]I'm just giving you what I've read. I'll try to find the other pages I've seen.[/color]




LeopardSeal

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#8 14 years ago
emonkies

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#9 14 years ago

Since the Airacobra was such a success in Russia, naturally the Soviets would be a major recipient of its bigger brother, the P-63. They were sent 2456 Kingcobras, flown across the Al-Sib ferry route, of which 2421 actually arrived, including both major variants, the P-63A and P-63C. However, contrary to Dorr and other western authors, it did not prove to be a potent tank-buster. It never got a chance. Only in September 1944 did the first P-63 begin it's long journey across two continents, from Buffalo, New York to Russia. By May 1945 there were only 51 P-63As in service, assigned to PVO air defense regiments, which by that stage of the war had little real chance of combat. Consequently, the P-63 never got to show its stuff against either a panzer or a "messer".

He has footnotes at the bottom of the page documenting where he got his informaiton.

http://oksquad.free.fr/bells.htm




Shade_PW

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#10 14 years ago

Im for it.




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