Complete list of cons and pros for porting to BF:V's engine -1 reply

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[SYN] hydraSlav

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#1 15 years ago

[color=black]This is not just another thread about BF:V, but a Final Summary Thread that will attempt to list all the features and address the commonly expressed cons in the first post[/color]

[color=black]_____________________________________________________[/color]
[color=black]Intro[/color]

[color=black]Firstly, we are talking about porting FH Mod to BF:V’s engine. We are not concerned with how noobish the M60/LAW combo is, or with how easy the automatic weapons and helicopters are. These are the problems of the “Vietnam Game” that Dice/EA created. We are only concerned with the features of the engine that this game was created on[/color]

[color=black]_____________________________________________________[/color]
[color=black]Gameplay Features[/color]
  • Multi-tiered radio commands & shorthand-version Unlike in BF42 where the radio commands could only have 2 tiers, in BF:V, there are at least 3-tiers. You can now have more specific commands. For example:
    • Selecting “Requesting”, you can then select “Pick up”, “Target” or “Support”, and if you chose “Support” you can further clarify whether it’s “Infantry Support” or “Air Support”, etc.
    • Selecting “Tactics”, you can then choose “Attack” and then specify the flag to attack, or you can choose “Defend” and then specify the flag to defend.

[indent][color=black]And in addition you can use a “shorthand-version” of the radio commands. For example, hitting F1 once means “Affirmative” and hitting F1 twice means “Negative”. This way, one button can have several commands attached depending on how many times it was hit, and since these commands are written on top of the button, newcomers can easily communicate on a basic level without going deep into multiple tiers of the expanded commands[/color] [/indent]

  • Movable spawn points Don’t confuse these with “mobile” spawn points that are available in DC (in helicopters). These spawn points you can actually pick up, run with them to some place, and then drop them off. How are these different from “mobile” spawn points in vehicles?
    • Well, for starters, only a certain class can “pick up” the spawn point and move it to some place, while if it would be a vehicle, anyone could drive it off into the enemy base to be destroyed.
    • Furthermore, if it’s a vehicle, people can spawn in it even while it’s moving, and only as long as there are places available, whereas when it’s a “movable” spawn point, you can’t spawn in there until it’s deployed, and once it’s deployed any number of people can spawn around it.
    • Also, if the “spawn carrier” gets killed while moving the spawn, then that spawn is lost.

[indent][color=black]In FH, this could be adapted to setting up a small camp. This spawn points cannot be captured, but they can be destroyed[/color] [/indent]

  • New flag capping system This is a very great feature for team-play. You now actually have to overwhelm the enemy in order to turn the flag. For example:
    • If you sneak into the enemy flag, and there are just 1 or 2 enemy soldiers defending it, you will be able to grey the flag, but you won’t be able to turn it.
    • But if there are more enemies, then you won’t be able to even grey it. This eliminates the stupid scenarios like in Omaha Beach in vanilla BF where a lone German infantry can prevent 32 Allies from taking the beach because he is hiding in some boat.

[indent][color=black]With the new flag capping system, the number of people in the flag radius also effects how fast it turns, so now it really pays off to capture a point together with a group, since you will do it much faster then alone. If you get enough people, you will even be able to overwhelm that flag and take it, although there will still be some lone defender hiding somewhere. Furthermore, you now actually get 1 point for turning the flag grey, and a further 2 points for completely turning it. And finally, something small but still nice: when you grey or turn the flag, the game displays your name for everyone to see[/color] [color=black]Also, there are no uncapturable bases, however, some flags take up to 2 minutes to turn. Considering that the usual spawn time is around 10-30 seconds, these bases can be considered as the “main base” as in BF42. But remember that the time taken to turn the flag depends on the people there. So while a lone infantry won’t be able to turn that base at all (since the enemy keeps spawning there), an organized group could overrun the base and capture it[/color]

[/indent]

  • Visibility range Unlike in BF42, where the “terrain-drawing distance” and the “object visibility” distance are the same thing, in BF:V it’s two different things. In real life, you can see the terrain go all the way until it meets the horizon, however, you can’t see objects that are far away. BF:V also implements this. It also distinguishes between the size of the objects, so if you look far away, you will probably not be able to see enemy infantry, but you will still be able to see a vehicle on the same distance as that infantry.

[indent]

[color=black]Furthermore, the muzzle flashes and explosions can be seen over the longest distance, so even though you cannot see the infantry far away, you could spot their muzzle flashes firing in the distance. Now, speaking about this, you also got to remember that zooming in does increase your visibility range. Also, tanks that had good optics will now be able to actually see enemy before the enemy sees them.[/color]

[/indent]

  • Destroying structures to destroy vehicle spawns Certain objects can be destroyed. When this happens, certain vehicle spawns that are associated with those objects are disabled. For example if you blow up the air-traffic towers, the enemy’s planes will no longer spawn, but the infantry can still spawn there. Of course it takes more then a lone engineer with 4 expacks to blow these up, it takes a well coordinated assault on the structure. In FH this can be adapted in many ways:
    • Blowing up a hangar or a factory will deprive that spawn location of tanks or planes.
    • Another scenario: the Axis have their main base with lots of heavy tanks. These tanks keep respawning (as any BF vehicles do) and the Allies are having hard time fighting them off. Now lets say there is a bridge behind this Axis base that leads off to the out-of-bounds area of the map. The Axis are assumingly receiving all their tank reinforcements from across that bridge. If the Allies coordinate their air-strikes, they could take out that bridge and deprive the Axis of heavy tanks reinforcements. This gives a whole new range of strategic planning and teamplay elements. The axis now have to spilt their forces to defend the bridge against the air strikes and to attack other flags to reduce tickets; the allies have to decide whether to concentrate their airpower on the bridge (and risk being completely overrun by axis tanks in the meanwhile) or to bomb the attacking tanks, although knowing that in the meanwhile more reinforcements are arriving.

[indent][color=black]And finally, unlike destructible bridges in some mods that are buggy and lag because they are introduced “over” the bf42 code, these are coded “in the native code”, thus don’t have this lag and bugs.[/color]

[/indent]

  • Huge Buildings with no lag Close-quarter battles (yes I said battles) in the buildings could qualify as a stand alone game on its own.
    • First thing that you notice about these is that they are huge, much bigger then the ones in BF42 or any of it’s mods.
    • Secondly, unlike BF42’s buildings that lag when a lot of them are placed closely together (Orel for example), BF:V’s huge buildings produce no lag. Not only do they produce no lag, but they are full of rubbish, obstacles, objects, furniture, etc and still no lag, unlike in BF42.

[indent][color=black]This is because the game renders these differently, not the same way BF42 treats these as regular objects. With so much more space and obstacles inside the buildings, the close-quarter battles indoors become much more then just “run-into-the-room-and-clear-all-with-a-nade” and “run in, spray all with StG, run-out”[/color]

[/indent]

[color=black]_____________________________________________________[/color][color=black]
Infantry Features[/color]
  • Ability to change uniforms While this may sound as a useless eye-candy, it is actually a very promising feature. A lot of maps have several “environments”. For example: Orel has a “city-environment” and an “outside-environment”; Adak Island had a “snowy-environment” and a “green-environment”. With the ability to customise your uniform you can now better adapt to the environment in which you plan to fight – while fighting in the city of Orel, you may choose a greyish looking uniform to better mix with the buildings, and while fighting outside the city you may choose a greener looking uniform to be more camouflaged against the bushes.
  • Slower movement while zoomed When “zooming” the game simulates the soldier “focusing down the sights”, so it’s only natural that while focusing the soldier will lose some of his mobility. This was applauded in games like CoD, and this also makes infantry combat more strategic – you should now decide whether you should zoom and lose mobility (thus be vulnerable) or sacrifice the zooming but be more mobile.
  • Delay between going from prone to standing When going prone, or when going to any other state after being prone, there is a small delay of “inactivity” similar to that when you just landed with a parachute. This is also a “natural” feature since you can’t expect to jump up instantly after lying prone, and it prevents exploits like that of “dolphin-diving”.
  • Zooming allows to see further Although making you more vulnerable cause of slowed movement, zooming does give you a better advantage. It actually makes you see further (unlike in BF42, where zooming just makes your view bigger). In smaller maps that means you will see further into the fog, while on bigger maps that means you will see enemies that are otherwise too far to be seen.
  • Ability to customize the class load out Each class has 2 weapon load outs. For example:
    • The engineer can have either the mines or the “sabotage” option. The one with the mines plays a “defence role” while the one with “sabotage” plays an “offence role”.
    • The assault class can chose whatever assault weapon they prefer.
    • In FH, the AT class could be either equipped with the AT-rifle or a bazooka.
    • Russians could chose either to have a rifle or to have bullets ... j/k . The possibilities are very promising and will allow FH to use more of their stuff in game

[color=black]_____________________________________________________ [/color][color=black]Vehicle Features[/color]

  • Shooting from moving vehicles as passengers Once again, this is just one of those “natural” features. Why would a soldier sit with his hands on his laps while enemies are shooting at him when he has a gun that he can use to fire back? This could be used to:
    • Allow soldiers to shoot out from the open-ended APCs
    • Soldiers riding in the back of the trucks can defend the truck from the enemies chasing them from behind
    • Tank drivers could use the pistol-slots to clear enemy infantry close to the tanks
    • Infantry catching a ride on the back of the tanks could now at least attempt to defend themselves from roadside shooters, and will definitely be more useful if some AT jumps out behind the tank
    • Infantry could call for artillery while sitting in the passenger seat of the jeep while the drivers takes a circle around the enemy base. Once again, the possibilities are endless.
  • Ability to be towed (helicopter pickup code)It does not matter that in BF:V the chain comes out of a helicopter vertically. What matters is that there is a code that allows attaching a vehicle to another vehicle and letting it be towed, following the physics rules, such as bending at turns and being effected by terrain elevation and direction of motion. This does not apply only to a certain vehicle, but to all vehicles in general, unless they are disabled from towing. This means that a general purpose truck could tow the Pak artillery, could tow the Flak88 gun, could tow a jeep behind it, or something else. You don’t need different models for all these different combinations, just a vehicle that can tow, and a vehicle that can be towed. And of course, once in place, the towed vehicle can be detached.
  • Gyro meter for planes Considering that most of the real pilots in BF/FH fly “out of visibility range” to avoid ground fire, they need some way to orient themselves when they can’t see the ground anymore (and without clouds, that can be very tricky). With the gyro-meter, they can have the artificial horizon to orient themselves. This can be very useful for the dive bombers when they enter a steep dive.



[SYN] hydraSlav

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#2 15 years ago
[color=black]New coded bits[/color]

[color=black]By this I mean all the extra features that are implemented into the game on the “game-developer’s-level”. These features could be done or may already exist in mods (like the smoke grenade feature), but because mods code “over” the native code, this usually induces overhead (lag) and buggyness to some extend. Having this features implemented by the game-developers ensures that they run optimal with the engine, since they are part of the engine. And some features (like the raising dust effect) I doubt are even possible in mods in BF42. [/color]

  • Smoke GranadesA lot of mods offer their own smoke grenades, however some of them lag while others don’t look good. BF:V’s smoke grenades not only look the best, but they also don’t lag, since they are part of the engine. Furthermore, if FH decides to use smoke grenades, they will have to spend time creating their own graphics and code for these, but with these feature already implemented, this will safe time and will assure stability since it’s part of the native code.
  • Sabotaging enemy vehiclesA very well code feature that allows you to “rig” an empty vehicle by attaching explosives to it that are triggered when the vehicle is started up (someone gets into driver’s position). These explosives stick to the vehicle and furthermore, they won’t work if you try to attach them while a vehicle is already moving, thus preventing the would be “suicide-bombers”.
  • Sticky explosivesYou can attach C4 sticks to vehicles or walls and they will stick in their position. And they work just like expacks with a detonator.
  • Timed explosivesWith these, you can either drop them off with the timer set to max time, or you can use your “alt-fire” button to manually set the detonation timer. And just like sticky explosives, this will stay on the vehicle if you place them well enough. This could also be converted to magnetic mines (if the detonation time is defaulted to something small).
  • Placing objectsBF:V allows you to press objects on ground that hurt other players, such as caltrops (look like 3d ninja stars) or pungi-sticks. Caltrops hurt people walking over them, but will kill instantly if people crawl over them. Pungi-sticks kill the player instantly (impaling). This could be converted to place barbwire barricades or AT-crosses. Although many mods experimented with placing objects, this was always buggy. Now with this feature implemented, it can be easily converted and used.
  • Neutral trapsBF:V also has some traps that are neutral and when they kill someone, no one gets the kill, however they can cause quite a lot of havoc and disrupt the enemy movement. In BF:V, these are in the form of big logs that can be released rolling onto anything down the hill. To trigger the trap, you actually have to shoot at some support branches holding the logs in place. This could be used directly in WWII, since wooden logs don’t really have an “era” in which they were used.
  • AP MinesSome mods tried them, but the latest patches caused them to malfunction. Also, in DC these were used as impact grenades. In BF:V these work perfectly and since it takes time to place them and time before they become “active”, the impact-grenade exploit could be avoided.
[color=black]_____________________________________________________[/color]
[color=black]Graphical Features.[/color]

[color=black] BF:V’s graphical engine is greatly redone. Not only it renders vegetation and buildings differently, thus causing no lag if there are lot of them, but it also gives a lot of better looking animations and other graphics. After being in the immersive environment of BF:V’s engine, you just can’t go back to the bare-flat-ground look of BF42. [/color] [color=black]Personally, graphics is not something i really care about, however it's the FH team that puts high-poly models in game and creates maps with thousands of bushes and objects. So if they do all that to make the mod more graphically appealing, they might as well use the engine that is better at it.[/color]

  • Raising dustIn BF:V, when a helicopter hovers low enough, it raises clouds of dust. In FH this could be converted so that when the big guns (such as Flack88, DefGun, Tiger’s main turret, etc) fire, they raise dust around them. Now you could argue that this could be achieved by applying an alpha texture to the muzzle flash, however, this muzzle flash animation is always the same, whereas the raising dust effect differs depending on the environment, so it raises leaves on grassy environment, raises dust on dirty environment and raises water drops over water. Also, in a similar way, the dust raised by vehicles depends on the terrain they are travelling (unlike in BF42 where it’s just grey-brown), and this animation is much better.
  • Better AnimationsYou all know what this is. I will just add that when reloading a shotgun, the animation puts in exactly the number of shells that was fired, so if you fired 2 shells, the animation will reload 2 shells, while if you fire 6, it will show 6 shells being loaded. With this much detail, these are just awesome.
  • Undergrowth and Overgrowth

veg2_t.jpgThe best way to explain is just to show the above (click on picture). Also note that the since these are not rendered as individual objects in BF42, these don’t cause lag. Bump mapping for models These models can look very realistic when the bump mapping is applied.

[color=black]_____________________________________________________
[/color][color=black]Sound Features.[/color]
  • Better ambient soundsOnce again, since this is coded straight into the engine, it does not produce as much lag as ambience created by mods.
  • Hear footstepsUnlike in BF42, where you just hear your own walking, in BF:V you can hear the enemy soldiers walking, and the sound differs based on whether they are walking on dirt or cement, crawling through the bush, or swimming.
  • Different music for each map loading
  • Voice SupportAlthough not currently implemented, Dice said they are planning to include voice support in future patches.



[SYN] hydraSlav

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#3 15 years ago
[color=black]Commonly expressed cons.[/color]

[color=black] • I am not paying EA any money • I am not buying something I already have Answer: If you hate EA so much, then why did you buy BF42? And if you think that by having BF42 you already have BF:V, then I think you missed what I wrote above[/color] [color=black]• Helicopters and Napalm got nothing to do in WWII • I don’t give a crap about Vietnam • The weapons are noobish and it feels like CS Answer: Read the first lines of the post. We talking about a WWII mod for BF:V’s engine. And of course it will feel like CS since they are using the same weapons. Once again, we are talking about a WWII mod with different weapons[/color] [color=black]• BF:V requires more CPU power then BF42 • FH on BF:V will lag Answer: Yes, BF:V requires more power then BF42, however, if you can run FH, then you will definitely be able to run BF:V. In fact a lot of people said that BF:V runs better on most FH maps. FH lags on BF42 because it introduces a lot of extra coding on top of BF42’s code. If FH will port to BF:V, a lot of that extra coding is already implemented in the game, thus FH over BF:V will not induce that much more lag[/color] [color=black]• ATI have problems • Sound problems Answer: The ATI problems will be solved with drivers or patches (remember the time when new nVidia drivers caused transparent textures in all mods?). And for sound problems, read this fix http://eatech.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/eatech.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=13454 [/color] [color=black]• FH will lose players if they switch • BF:V won’t be as popular Answer: Most of the non-hardcore players will switch to BF:V as a logical “upgrade” step. It offers a more immersive environment than BF42, it supports greater teamplay with the new flag-capping system and the ability to shot from vehicles. [/color] [color=black]It’s been about 2 years since BF42 came out, and its graphical engine is greatly outdated by now. With the release of the new games, the bare-flat-ground of BF is not gonna pull it anymore. BF:V will prolong the life of the BF series by approx another 2 years due to its more modern engine. [/color] [color=black]And most of the FH players said that they would gladly pay for FH if it goes retail, so they will have no problem buying BF:V just to play FH[/color] [color=black]• It’s hard to convert everything • It will take too much time to convert • We are not allowed to use BF42’s stuff in BF:V Answer: Dice/EA also said that unless we are talking about making profit with this, then there are no copyrights involved and it’s perfectly ok to use stuff from BF42 in BF:V. A lot of mods are porting their stuff using the tools provided. As Dice said, it’s very easy to port stuff, however, since BF:V uses extra layers for models and maps, of course time will be needed to add those. And it’s up to the FH Devs to decide whether it will take too much time.[/color] [color=black]• We already have feature X in mod Y Answer: It’s not just the feature X that we are talking about, but all the others too. And as I explained before, having this features implemented in the native code by Dice will make them more stable and optimal[/color]

[color=black]_____________________________________________________[/color]
[color=black]Conclusion.[/color]

[color=black]I did not like BF:V since i heard about it. For me, these "more lethal modern weapons" meant it was gonna be another spam-kill-fest like DC in early versions that did not require skills. I was even more sickened when i saw a couple of videos, one of them showing the M60 guy running and killing someone on the run with virtually no spray from the bullets. Then my clan decided to form a chapter for BF:V. I was trully against it, and i started fighting with all the leaders of that new chapter. I was using the same arguments that you use now: I was saying "most of these things can be done with mods", "the balance/gameplay is crap", and believe it or not, but i did say "the game plays like CS". This turned so ugly, that the clan leaders actually deleted all those posts Then i started to play the game thouroughly in order to find "more dirt" to spill out. It was at this time i started to realize the potential of the engine if mods would use it. It was at this time (while searching for "dirt") that i found all those small but important features. I still stand by my opinion that the Vietnam game is shit. The M60/LAW is bullshit, firing the M16 does feel like CS, the helicopters are just huge noob cannons that anyone can use. The Vietnamese helicopters are virtually unstoppable since US does not have any AA weapons, and so on. But this does not mean that the engine is bad. The engine is far better then that of BF42. It more modern, thus more advanced, it gives better performance, and it supplies a lot of new features, which can make the game far more realistic.[/color]




Ohioan

Not Wise Shitashi - Cheston

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#4 15 years ago

Eh, seems like a lot of good reasons. But then again, you're a biased delivery boy. The reasons NOT to switch are pretty good also. Then there's the whole issue of it being entirely the devs' decision and not ours..

By the way, FH lags under bf1942 NOT because of code, but because of models that weren't optimized. This will continue into BF:V because it uses the same model architecture and code, therefore it will lag even worse. Add vegetation and bump mapping, poor ATI support (who knows if it's a driver problem? I don't think it is.) and poor sound code (EAX 1-3, and none of them work :P), and this mod will be a 20fps monster. Traps weren't really the big thing in 1939 (besides AT mines) and I don't see them adding a lot to the game.

Here's some facts loosely based on opinions:

We are currently using bf1942. It took 5 months to get a second beta out under this engine. Switching engines will probably mean we won't see FH until the rapture and the coming of the ancient one, N'gfaweth.

BF:V has some nice features, but I can live without them and retain my ~90 FPS.

Newer dosen't necessarily mean better. It's known that people who can run bf1942 may not necessarily be able to run BF:V, and that WOULD limit the audience of people who can play (and enjoy) FH.

Read the BF:V forums sometime. It will enlighten you on two things. One is the stupidity of the american internet user, the other is that 80% of the posts are bashing EA and death threats against DICE for making a game that dosen't run right.

The vegetation renders retardedly. If you're far away from someone who is hiding in the grass you can see them clear as day, because the vegetation only renders up to 100 feet away and they are seen as sitting completely in the open and an easy target. If they're right next to you and hiding in the grass, you can't see them at all. This kind of destroys the point of having vegetation to hide in.




Sputty

Master of Kittens

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#5 15 years ago

Some grass is just added in as something to help at close range, some of it is seeable at long range(tall grass, rice paddies). BTW, BF:V handles all models much better than 1942, so it probably won't have worse performance at least, and may be better. IMO, the advantages are too good to be ignored, and completely outweigh the negative




Beast of War

Born to kill

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28th May 2003

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#6 15 years ago

Good argumentation HydraSlav......there is not really one good reason left why a truely dedictated FH fan should be against.

Ofcourse this does not mean everyone has to run to the store now and get a game they are not interested in untill FH really releases a version for BFV. Untill FH does, and that could be well over 3-5 months ( guess from experience ) they do not have to go out and buy BFV, and in about 3 months the game will be half the original price, so money won't be a huge problem at all neither even if you do not like the original vietnam product. When you buy BFV you will buy it for improved FH features. ( if BFV features are not inmidiatly supported then in future releases)

Now lets hope the internal dev discussion goes pro BFV too, so they will actually make the switch to BFV engine and enhance FH features and coding, in a way that would not be possible with bf1942.

The stubborn against players will find themselves quickly in a position they cannot run too many quality mods anymore.......DC switches, EOD switches....if FH goes too, then there's only BG42 left that intends to support RTR instead.

I guess in the long run no dedicated mod player can escape having to buy BFV somewhere down the line.......




SilenT AssassiN

A South African Bohemian

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9th October 2003

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#7 15 years ago

Execellent job hydraslav :clap: that pretty much sums it up, how long did that take you to type that ?




[SYN] hydraSlav

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#8 15 years ago
OhioanWe are currently using bf1942. It took 5 months to get a second beta out under this engine. [/quote]It took that long because they were building thier base of models and maps. Now this base is complete, so as the FH team said themselves, once the base is complete, they can do periodic releases from there. Yes, it will take time to convert, but the things are already made, they just need to port it. [QUOTE=Ohioan]The vegetation renders retardedly. If you're far away from someone who is hiding in the grass you can see them clear as day, because the vegetation only renders up to 100 feet away and they are seen as sitting completely in the open and an easy target. If they're right next to you and hiding in the grass, you can't see them at all. This kind of destroys the point of having vegetation to hide in.

Already explained in the post above! BF:V has a feature where you can't see far away infantry, although you can see the terrain. So at "100 feet" when the vegetation does not render anymore, you can't see the soldier either, just thier muzzle flashes. Next time read before answering. And finally, you still did not provide a reason why FH should not switch, besides your biased assumptions that ATI problem is here for long term (do you really think that money hungry EA won't fix this to boost sales?), and that people won't be able to run it (If people can run FH over BF42, they will be able to run BF:V) And if you are taking into account a P1 computer that crawls BF in 320x240 at 2FPS, then sorry, it's time to upgrade. There was a thread here regarding the hightened requirements of FH over the regular BF42. Most people said that since "FH is a 'newer' mod, you should expect to have an upgraded computer to run FH and screw those with lower system, i want my bullet casings all over the screen". So why change the tune now, eh?




General Taskeen

FH Betatester

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24th November 2002

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#9 15 years ago

There are definitely some great underlying features with BF:V, but as I have said in the past, finishing FH to its completeness on the current engine should be their #1 priority.

Then, and only then, should they worry themselves with a possible port to the BF:V engine.




Odessa

"when will this pain stop?"

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8th February 2004

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#10 15 years ago

:dropsjaw:My god... what a work. Great job Hydraslav............