Fw190 -1 reply

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mondogenerator

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#71 15 years ago

I like the Mustang but I'd still pick a 190D-9 to win a fight, its just plain quicker and its guns far more damaging and im not sure how they worked out the P51 was quicker in a dive, the 190 was regarded as boom and zoom incarnate. The only planes that could outstrip the D9 were the 109k-4 and the P47D-27 in a dive.

Leads to the question that is this writer generalising or comparing specific versions of each plane as they would have met in combat.

BTW there were 6 different A models from originating from 1941;)




emonkies

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#72 15 years ago

I agree that the FW-190D-9 would have the edge over a P-51D, but I'd run a P-51H up against it.




mondogenerator

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#73 15 years ago

Were getting into the realms of planes that never made an impact here or were to few to late. What we really want is (to truly represent what happened) is fights like Me109 G's and FW190 A-6/8's vs Yak 9's and Lavoshkin 5's and 7's, Spit I's and II's vs 109 E's, P51D's Vs 109G's and K's and later Fw190's (A6 upwards), Spit IX's vs 109 f's g's and K's and 190A4-8's(IX's were upgraded throughout the war so...). Spit XIV's vs 190A-8's/D-9's. Tempests vs 109 g's and K's and 190 A8's and D9's and chasing V1's (Tempests took out 683 in there first months of service but I doubt the BF engine could cope with that). Realisic fights that actually happened, not flights of fancy that never took place or only did very rarely.

Also what we need to remember is P51's scored many of there kills when German planes were taking off or landing. German fighters had little fuel because they were designed as dogfighters/intercpetors and could only remain in combat for a short time as they had to powerclimb to meet the bombers which burnt up lots of fuel. The P51D was an escort fighter which carried and efficent engine with allot of fuel (thats why many of the 'P51 was really fast' stuff is not very true as it was weighed down by 2000lbs of fuel, only when returning from misson could it truly stretch its legs as it was rapidly emptying of fuel). Its advantage was it was a good fighter but it had legs and it had the height already. Also there were thousands all in formation at any time so they could swamp incoming German planes. Not to mention the defensive fire from the B17's and the B24's would take its toll.

Im suprised no one has brought up the P51D vs Ki-84 Franks yet.




emonkies

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#74 15 years ago

I do not agree at all that most Mustangs scores were made against German fighters taking off or landing. Germany had a well established air defense system and in combat report after combat report it is repeatedly stated that when the escort fighters and bombers arrived inland the Germans were already awaiting at a higher alititude. What really made the Mustangs successful was when they were given permission to free roam around the bombers and were able to break up German fighters asembling for their attacks on the bombers. It was not til later that the P-51's were released to attack ground targets to expend ammo on the way home. Besides the P-38's P-47's and Typhoons covered the lower altitudes.

Also on further examination of the FW-190D-9. It was rated at 426mph. A P-51D was rated at 436mph. It would be hard for a FW-190D-9 to outrun or outdive a P-51. Since the D-9 is still based on the same FW-190 airframe with a fuselage plug in the rear to balance the aircraft Im going to guess the Mustang could still out turn it.

The weight difference of a P-51D and a FW-190D-9 are minimal. Mustang combat weight was typically around 9000lbs and a FW-190D was typically around 9500lbs. This gives the P-51D a 5.3lbs per hp and the D-9 4.3lbs per hp. Mustang accelerates faster due to the more aerodynamic laminar flow wing and more aerodynamic shape. Climb rate was very similar wiht both planes climbing to 20,000ft in roughly 7min.

Neither aircraft could survive long in the others gunsights. Both aircraft were well armed to take down the other with well placed shots.

Me-109G vs P-51D? P-51 has the definate advantage but a experienced pilot in a Bf-109 could put up a hell of a fight against a Mustang. Same with a FW-109A if the FW pilot got the Mustang below 16,000ft. a experienced FW pilot could give a Mustang pilot one hell of a fight.

I dont feel the G and K models were good dogfighters. By the G model the Me was getting overweight and the wing loading was going up. Best dogfighter was probably the F model. K model was a good boom and zoom fighter but had same problem as the G, overweight and high wing loading.

La-5fn and Yak-2,9 versus Me-109G, K, and FW-190A-8 I would say definate advantage to the Russian fighters. The Russian fighters were lighter, had engines of similar output, were cannon armed, and the Russian and FW-190's had good all around vision. The La-5fn was considered better than a ME and as good as or better than a FW-190A. The Yak-3 was so dominant in low altitude combat over the German types that the Luftwaffe issued a order that their fighters were to avoid combat with the Yaks below 5000ft. Yak -9 I think was a good match for the Bf-109. I think FW-190A had advantage in speed and firepower over the Yaks.

I am a big fan of the late war Japanese fighters, specifically the Ki-84 Frank, the Ki-100 Tony, and the N1K2 George. The Jap fighters were slower but gave a very good accounting of themselves. In combat after combat the George completely dominated the Hellcat and gave the other fighters a headache.

The first combat I am aware of for the Ki-100 was over Okinawa when P-51's tangled with Ki-100's. The Ki-100's were able to hold their own and according to a P-51 pilot it was a pretty vicious fight. The Ki-100 also was a good match for the Corsairs, Thunderbolts, and Lightnings.

I think the Ki-84 was probably the best IJAAF fighter of the war. It was the first IJAAF fighter that was built with the same standards as the west regarding armor and self sealing tanks. It handled well, was fairly fast, and had good armament.

Alot of people think a slow fighter cant compete against a fast one. While not an expert my online gaming experience says that it is the pilots skill and tactics that determine the victor.

I was playing CFS2 online one time and there were IIRC either 5 or 6 of us. I was in a George and two of the opponents were in Corsairs. Corsairs had definite sdpeed advantage and I had manuverability. As the Corsairs would come in on me to do a boom and zoom I would pull a split-s to get out of position for them to get a shot, before they went past I would break into them and get off a good deflection shot and would score hits as they went past. After shooting them down this way the Corsair pilots got frustrated and tried to dogfight where the Georges better manuverability had the advantage and I quickly shot them down. At this point I was accused of cheating. I wasnt it was just me flying my plane to its strengths that neutralized their strengths. On the few occasions when they did get on my tail I developed a little manuver of hard left turn and opposite rudder, plane stalls, throttle back, stick full down and to right, full right rudder and within 2 or 3 spins the George would recover form the spin and I was back to hunting.




emonkies

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#75 15 years ago

I just found info on a report that states that US Occupation troops in Japan after the wars end took possesion of a Ki-84 and shipped it home to Wright Patterson AFB, home of the USAF materials testing section. The mechanics at WPAFB got the Ki-84 in top working condition and topped it of with 100 octane avgas(Japanese typically could only get 84 octane) and quality lubricants and did a fly off with a P-51D and a P-47D. The Ki-84 suprised everyone by outrunning the Mustang by 5mph and the P-47 by 22mph. The Ki-84 was clocked at 427mph. It outclimbed, out turned and outran the two US fighters. It also had self sealing fuel tanks and pilot armor. From Japanese combat reports the Ki-84 also could absorb a good deal of battle damage as well.




Witch Hunter General

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#76 15 years ago

I have heard Japanese pilots claim that they could easily dogfight and win over two US fighters of any type in a Hayate(I really hate western designations). the best thing the enemy could do was to use his superior speed to get the hell out of there.




mondogenerator

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#77 15 years ago
Anlushac11I do not agree at all that most Mustangs scores were made against German fighters taking off or landing.

Did I say that? Nope, I said many kills. And many kills were for the reasons I stated. You'll find what made the FW190D9 out perform the P51D was its MV50 boost which would raise the HP of the engine by 20-25% for short periods. Means the pilot could dive or simple leave combat if desired.

The Ki84 is nice but like the Fw190D9 it was to little to late although they were produced from 1944. Also there ability for the plane to survive damage was mixed. Like late war German plane and tanks, the Japanese suffered from mixed quality materials, workmanship and certainly poor fuel (as stated). I definatly think that for the later war Pacific maps the Zero's should be replaiced by Ki84's. They were also good at high altitude as a number of ki84 pilots had scores of B29 kills.