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fibelsword

I don't spend enough time here

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13th June 2003

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#31 16 years ago

I think it's great the FH team has made this effort to enable people to play the mod legally in countries that would otherwise ban it. I'm pretty sure everyone would get the uncensored one if given the choice, but that is not the case in Germany, though they have contributed a lot to the BF modding community.




Blistex

Been here longer than you!

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21st May 2003

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#32 16 years ago

The swastika isn't banned in Germany, it's the manner in which it's used. Sure you can't wave a nazi flag around and say it's for history, but you can have it in a book or a movie.

Article 86a of the German penal code states: There is a charge of up to three years in prison or a financial fee for: publishing symbols of an organization hostile to the constitution, or using these symbols publicly in meetings or publications. importing, exporting using, publishing, distributing or producing items with these symbols domestically or internationally. symbols are flags, buttons, uniforms, slogans and forms of greetings. Included are variations that are extremely similar to the original ones. Excepted are the use of these symbols for public education, prevention of hostile actions against the constitution, the use in art, science, schooling, news reports, historical reports and the like.

If you not the bottom it states that it can in fact be used in certain manners. The only reason that it was taken out of IL-2 was that most companies are chicken to do anything that might piss somone off. Computer games fall under the "art" category just like movies. As long as you're not glorfying nazism then it's ok to use it in FH in Germany.




Sgt. DinkyDuck

Addicted to GF

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10th November 2003

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#33 16 years ago

me being an American and knowing that i have the freedom of any kind of speach (unless its threatening harm on another) am completly non-understanding of any law that would censor something so symbolic to the history of Nazi Germany. even if its such a horid part of history. as a famous person once said, (probably not word for word) "If we do not learn from our history, We are doomed to repeat it" even though its a small part of the whole, its a detail, that must not be forgoten, right now its not a forgotten symbol, but in another 60-100 years, then where does it go? History is a very limited and Valuable memory, if its forgotten, then its lost forever. and never to be remembered so that it does not come to pass again.




Augustus

Level Design Owns Me.

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24th June 2003

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#34 16 years ago

Morons, it isn't censorship for censorships sake, its to prevent the resurgence of Nazidom.

If you haven't noticed, it was one of the most horrendous and brutal dictatorships that has ever existed, and moreover, it was a dictatorship that was based on feelings that, for better or worse, many Germans at least in some part (most likely to a less extreeme extent) agree with, even to this day, making a resurgence possible if given the right circumstance. Jean-Marie LePenn (spelling?) in France ring any bells?

The banning of the NSDAP and related symbols is designed to prevent any such horror and disgrace to the German state ever happenning again, anyone who says this is a bad thing misses the fundamental concept behind it.

In the 1960's, the Russians dug up Hitlers body, (which was buried by the Red Army in a park in Berlin after it was found burned behind the Chancellery, after they had cut off his head, which the skull with the bullet hole in it is to this day in the former KGB national archives) was dug up, reburned and flushed down a storm water drain.

Why?

So other freaks who don't get the concepts don't have anywhere to go and pay homage to their 'leader'.

Being flushed down a drain is a fitting end, IMHO...




shrinerr

I'm too cool to Post

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2nd October 2003

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#35 16 years ago

Is that guy a mod...?




BAM

I pretend I'm cooler than AzH

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27th April 2003

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#36 16 years ago

he is not a mod he said in another thread that he hosted a stie but he dosnt do it any more and they removed his mod stuff and "You choose one of those files to download based on your taste or law code, then the next file you'll need is the Map install, which will carry Forgotten Hopes large list of Custom Maps" so i guess there will be 1 main file with censoure and a patch for it that adds swastikas and then a map pack but i didnt have any problem instaling any of the patches/files for FH 0.5 ...




Beast of War

Born to kill

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28th May 2003

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#37 16 years ago

AugustusMorons, it isn't censorship for censorships sake, its to prevent the resurgence of Nazidom.

If you haven't noticed, it was one of the most horrendous and brutal dictatorships that has ever existed,

Hahaha !!!!

You should read history books a little further then that. Some things are forgotten by history and never recorded neither.

The brutality of the Nazi's was often matched or even surpassed in history. Maybe you think throwing thousands of defenceless people to the lions in an arena for amusement, that were torn apart alive and often lived for minutes without limbs is less brutal then choking people to death with gas or submitting them to terrible medical experiment that humans cannot even imagine ? Maybe ramming a wooden stake up the anus, wich broke bones in that region and pierced most of the organs in your belly and exiting out of you back half way, and then erect that pole with you still alive and screaming from pain and trauma and leaving you to hang there untill the victim bled to death or died of exhaustion ? Leaving it to hang until the rotting body fell of itself ? That was a normal death penalty in many countries for centuries for certain crimes. Thousands if not millions suffered that fate over time and death penalties like that or similair but often equally gruesome. Romans legions often cut the bellies of defenders of cities they besieged and wich cost a lot of deaths of their own troops. The victims with cut open bellies had to run away with their bowels in their hands....not surprising they didn't get far running. For hundreds of years in Europe it was quitte normal if a city fell, all civilians aswell as military in it were murdered, or tortured to death. Not for information, but just for revenge or amusment. Most women ofcourse first raped several times and then tortured and murdered. Could be quitte a massacre if was a big city, the killing could take days. Quitte a lot of castles had a turret with a deep dark closed pit in it. Captured oponents or criminal were simply thrown down in a pit 20 meter deep and the pit was shut again. Most survided their fall and had to perish in that pit out of starvation, in the dark among other rotting corpses and almost always with the pain of broken bones and falling wounds. Bah... but a few things people did to each other, and in some countries still do on smaller scale.

The Nazi reginme, among them the politcal SS, the armed SS, Gestapo, SD and more organisations were responsible for inhuman activities during the war. Waffen SS were not part of the regular army as many mistake them for. Their symbols, signs, flags and all they stood for is forbidden unless it serves another goal then glorifying it.

The Wehrmacht ( army ) Kriegsmarine ( navy ) and Luftwaffe ( airforce ) were largely non Nazi regular military organisations, but ofcourse were to obey their countries gouvernement as all armies are. That in germany that happned to be Nazi's in 1935-1945 is not all their fault. With the economical revival in the '30 germany after years of bitter economical depression that all but ruined the country and the people, they initially though Hitler was a hero.....The german military was used by the Nazi's just like everything and every other german, if the wanted or not.

That is why you will find many of their symbols, flags and even helmets used throughout history untill this day. Save fighting in the war on the wrong side, in general they did nothing wrong.




sempai(be)

Addicted to GF

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1st October 2003

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#38 16 years ago

Nice post BOW and not that far from truth. Problem is there's no "black" and "white" in this. This issues have and will be discussed for years to come.

Mens history is one of violance and greeve , has been and will be. It's in our genes I guess.

Just look at the attrocities commited in former Yugoslavia. No one imagined this could happen again in Europe .




Augustus

Level Design Owns Me.

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24th June 2003

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#39 16 years ago

From your opening and closing statements you seem to be excusing Nazi attrocities, so I am not going to waste my time reading all the trash you wasted your time typing.

I wager I know a lot more about history than you will ever know. Did it occour to you that the Roman Empire was around about 1000 years before the European Age of Reason? (Or do you even know what that actually is?) Hell, it was even around before the modern concept of the Nation-State. Germany was considered an educated, enlightened and cultured country. Making the regimes horrors even more sad and tragic. People hear "Germany" and think of Nazis and ww2 and anti-Semitism, people don't hear "Rome" and think of how evil Italians are. Times were different, and the level of expected Civility was also different.

I did not say it was THE most brutal, I said it was one of the most brutal. Stalin killed far more people than Hitler, but Stalin didn't do it all in a 3 - 7 year period, with specialist concentration camps with ovens and gas chambers.

Other than that, from what I can gather you did nothing to disprove anything I said, all you did was go off on some tangent about the difference between the Military and the NSDAP. My point was the censorship is to stop the resurgence of Nazidom, which is fact. You stated nothing to prove otherwise, other than to say that the army was controlled by the Regime.... talk about stating the bleeding obvious... this is what the Nuremberg trials were for.

Dispite what you think, losing a war is no excuse to bake 6 million people and attempt genocide, and the Great Depression is no excuse either, the whole world suffered from that.




Lt. Valentine

I'm too cool to Post

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20th September 2003

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#40 16 years ago

i agree with august here stalin wa FAR worse then hitler but did the communist symbol get banned no.The japs had horrible camps during ww2 is the 'Rising Sun' symbol banned no.