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Panzergrenadier

Waffen SS elan

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29th April 2003

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#41 16 years ago

There are very few countries that have not done something horrible or inhumane. It would be rediculous to ban all symbols linked to all attrocities - However the world is made of examples. To argue anymore is nearly pointless. The swastica is banned in most European countries because there are still close ties to its history. However we must also understand the basic truths of what happend so that such a mistake should never happen again. Let the Swastica be an example - let people remember what it stood for and what it did but most of all let people remember so that it may never happen ever again.




Admiral Donutz Advanced Member

Wanna go Double Dutch?

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9th December 2003

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#42 16 years ago

IMO in FH the Swastika is used as art, its not being glorified or something an therefor i think it is legal to use it in the mod, although i do understand why they made a cesored version. I favour realism, i therefor see no problems with the use of Swastikas (as long as it isn't glorified). Can't they put two options in the installation program? So that it will ask you if you would like to install the censored and unsencored version (+some text about that the uncensored version might be illegal to use in some countries), let the installer select/use the censored version by default but implent the a checkbox that will install a unsencored version.




Beast of War

Born to kill

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28th May 2003

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#43 16 years ago
AugustusFrom your opening and closing statements you seem to be excusing Nazi attrocities, so I am not going to waste my time reading all the trash you wasted your time typing.

I never do a thing that stupid. No humans inflicting death, pain and misery upon others that could have been prevented will ever be excused by me.

I am merely saying that what happened in WWII is extremely well documented, and that makes it seem far worse then things that happend in the past but were not so well documented with shocking photo's and film material, were longer ago, so it seems more "fictional" while it was just as real, or were even never recorded at all.

I wager I know a lot more about history than you will ever know.

Don't lose money on it. You completely don't know who i am, what education i had and what age i am.

In militairy service i have been sent to quitte a few countries and spent a whole lot more time there then a tourist does, and more importantly been places where tourists don't go/are not allowed......Demilitarized parts of Israel and Egypt being a few of them. I likely got a diffrent view on things then someone who watches the news never have been in such places.

It is true that i am more focussed on military history then regular history. But often one does not come without the other.

And maybe you might have heard, history books are corrected all the time. Excavations, finds and hidden knowledge ( church didn't like it, wanted it kept from the public ) reveal more and more. What you know now, maybe totally wrong tomorrow....

Enough OT......i want the uncensored version too. I want the vehicles and uniforms as they historically were. For the rest it is a game and i want to see it that way. I am not indentifying myself as a Nazi german wen i play german side, just as i am not pretending to really shoot humans when i kill players in game. It is a game.....




BAM

I pretend I'm cooler than AzH

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27th April 2003

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#44 16 years ago

maybee you can turn the Swastikas around so its one of those Budhism symbols for sun and you wont need to have these censore versions ...




Blistex

Been here longer than you!

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21st May 2003

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#45 16 years ago
Augustus I wager I know a lot more about history than you will ever know.

Debate mistake #1

Saying that you're right/know more than your opponent. Try using facts and logic instead of putting the old Johnson on the table. next time you'll look like less of an ass.




mondogenerator

Wolfgaming.net *****istrator

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24th September 2003

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#46 16 years ago

Some of you might question why the symbolism is banned. Im lucky that my Grandfather has explained this to me from a young age. He was an RAF medic who travelled through France and Germany during 44/45 as a triage nurse treating injured Tempest and Typhoon pilots at forward airbases but as they progresses he saw past the propaganda and saw the horrors of war as after the surrender he was moved to prison camps, concentration camps and then hamburg to treat the thousands upon thousands of burn victims from 1943 (the RAF's most contraversial raid). He tells me even now that censorship is one thing but what happened between 1933 - 1945 must never happen again. Nazi symbolism and related material must be banned and he wishes no man should ever see what he saw again. The lack of respect for human life during that war was terrible and to repeat it would mean the end of us.

We also need to look at the perspective of eastern Europeans, those of Slavic heratige (Hitler classed them as animals), those of African descent, the Jewish amoungst us and any of those who are not of caucasian origian. Hitler wanted them all gone. The world would not be racially pure with them there under Nazi ideology. Nazi symobolism stands for that. How do those people feel about that and how do the German nations feel about this happening 60 years ago? I'd say theres allot of pain and scars remain.

I think people should be allot more sensitive to these things. Some of you may not care either way as its in the past, some people may not understand but there are a lot of people who are sensitive to this and we should respect that and be a bit more mature when talking about it.

AugustusI did not say it was THE most brutal, I said it was one of the most brutal. Stalin killed far more people than Hitler, but Stalin didn't do it all in a 3 - 7 year period, with specialist concentration camps with ovens and gas chambers.

Stalin and Hitler are responsable for roughly the same amount but I think we will never know. Hitler did it over a 12 year period btw;). Chairman Mao is also reputed to have 30 million deaths (disputable I know).

If you want to read about a real basta*d in History read up about King Leopold II of belgium.




[1.SS.Pz]LSSAH

You suck at the Internet.

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#47 16 years ago

mondogeneratorSome of you might question why the symbolism is banned. Im lucky that my Grandfather has explained this to me from a young age. He was an RAF medic who travelled through France and Germany during 44/45 as a triage nurse treating injured Tempest and Typhoon pilots at forward airbases but as they progresses he saw past the propaganda and saw the horrors of war as after the surrender he was moved to prison camps, concentration camps and then hamburg to treat the thousands upon thousands of burn victims from 1943 (the RAF's most contraversial raid). He tells me even now that censorship is one thing but what happened between 1933 - 1945 must never happen again. Nazi symbolism and related material must be banned and he wishes no man should ever see what he saw again. The lack of respect for human life during that war was terrible and to repeat it would mean the end of us.[/QUOTE]

I have the fortunate (and unfrotunate) position of having relatives that fought on both sides during the war. That fact, coupled with the fact that I am an American, makes thes contrast between the two sides very clear. That being said, however, all of my relatives who fought for either side said that everyone was guilty of atrocities during the war. All of them say that pushing down historical fact because someone people are sensitive about what happened is something that degrades the memory of those who perished. You can be ashamed of your country's history, but trying to erase it is the foundation for it to be repeated in the future.

[QUOTE=mondogenerator]Stalin and Hitler are responsable for roughly the same amount but I think we will never know. Hitler did it over a 12 year period btw;). Chairman Mao is also reputed to have 30 million deaths (disputable I know).

The most recent batch of Soviet historical documents that have been released show Stalin was guilty of killing nearly twice the amount of people that Hitler did. Numbers aside, it's very annoying how a majority of uninformed people associate the genocide of the 20th century solely with Hitler.




mondogenerator

Wolfgaming.net *****istrator

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#48 16 years ago

'[1.SS.PzLSSAH']you can be ashamed of your country's history, but trying to erase it is the foundation for it to be repeated in the future. [/QUOTE]

Never a better word spoken. We should remember but without letting those who want to start it all again get that chance. Education is the key to it but that should be taught at school, not in a computer game.

[QUOTE='[1.SS.Pz]LSSAH']The most recent batch of Soviet historical documents that have been released show Stalin was guilty of killing nearly twice the amount of people that Hitler did. Numbers aside, it's very annoying how a majority of uninformed people associate the genocide of the 20th century solely with Hitler.

Its hard to put numbers on it all. Hitler is supposed to be directly responsable for 35 million deaths but the total death for WW2 is said to be almost 210 million though fighting, bombing, starvation, malnutritian, persecution etc. All the time Hilter was percecuting one group of people Stalin was murdering his own side because of his massive paranoia and fear of rebelion (the Germans were welcomed in some areas before the SS arrived with Hitlers orders). He had whole areas of southern USSR population removed. Thats one direct reason who the Chechnean conflict started, it started with Stalin trying to forcably move them all. As I said before, the RAF were ordered to firebomb every German city to the ground. One night in the summer of 1943 Hamburg was bombed and (theres no exact figure) between 40-60,000 people were burnt to death. That does not sit well with me, especially after the descriptions I've had and visiting hamburg last year. its still possible to see the craters and the surrounding fields from the air and the buildings that have been left deliberatly to warn us all of are past.

I can't really say much else but we should be respectful of each others feelings and look to the past so we don't make mistakes in the future.




[1.SS.Pz]LSSAH

You suck at the Internet.

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#49 16 years ago

Agreed. I hope that a world-wide campaign of violence of that scale doesn't break out for many lifetimes.




Augustus

Level Design Owns Me.

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#50 16 years ago
Beast of WarI never do a thing that stupid. No humans inflicting death, pain and misery upon others that could have been prevented will ever be excused by me.

I do appologise if that is not what you meant, but thats how some of your statements came accross (to me anyway). :)

I am merely saying that what happened in WWII is extremely well documented, and that makes it seem far worse then things that happend in the past but were not so well documented with shocking photo's and film material, were longer ago, so it seems more "fictional" while it was just as real, or were even never recorded at all.

I understand your point, but I beleive the fact the these things happened in the perceived 'age of enlightenment' makes these things 'worse', though in a context of setting humankind farther back as a whole, not on a scale of individual suffering. I would prefer to be gassed by Prussic Acid by Nazis than slowly impaled on a stake by 'Vlad the Impaler', or tied up in my house and burned by Ivan the Terrible, but arguably, there is no question which sequence of events set human development farther back as a whole.

And maybe you might have heard, history books are corrected all the time. Excavations, finds and hidden knowledge ( church didn't like it, wanted it kept from the public ) reveal more and more. What you know now, maybe totally wrong tomorrow....

Agreed.