I am hoping that the tank models are as accurate as possible to represent reality. I think that there should be mobility kills (track knocked off or driver killed or wounded) as well as armament kills (main gun rendered unservicable). For a mobility kill, the tank essentially becomes a pill box. I also think the anti-tank guns are too effective (range and killing power). If a 75mm gun on a sherman couldn't kill a Tiger, then why would I think a 57mm antitank gun would have much effect? The anti-tank guns would be effective against rear armor and for mobility kills, though. And the range for the anti-tank guns seems too great as compared to the tanks. For a buttoned up tank, I would expect the effect that the game uses. But many tank commanders would stand up in the turret until taken under fire just to improve visibility and situational awareness. This is not modelled well. All in all, the game has great promise, and with some many people developing mods for it, these kinds of reality improvements will get incorporated at some point.
Wait scratch the last thing I said. I understand what Fy meant about the human element. Yes a tank is just a shell, its the crew that makes it work best. Even a tiger with a crappy crew will die. WWIIOL shows this, because it is a MMO simulator, so the tiger is as strong in game as in real life (Well except for armor quality and shattergap). Some people let the 100mm of armor go to their heads, drive it into a town and proceed to get killed by just about every weapon there, then start whinning on the chat bar that they got killed. On the other hand some people can use the tiger very well and rack up Witman style kills while they are too far away to touch with anything except the 17 pounder.
On the other hand a good tank can make a good tank crew a God on the battlefield. When reading some of the stuff on Witman in Russia fighting in a Tiger tank, his tank would generally take several hits during a battle. If he had been in say a Mark3 panzer, or a Mark4 panzer the armor would have been penetrated, and likely would have ended Witmans career and life.
Strong Armor is good, but it should never be relied on to make up for an inferior tank crew. Many of the kills racked up by tigers were by only a fraction of the tiger crews. That is another reason why using the 5 to 1 ratio is wrong. Many tigers and their crews were lost before they even got a kill, while other tiger crews racked up dozens of kills and survived the war.
Overall in many ways a Good tank crew in a Panzer 4H would be more effective then a Terrible Crew in a Tiger or Panther. Armor only saves you so much.
I am hoping that the tank models are as accurate as possible to represent reality. I think that there should be mobility kills (track knocked off or driver killed or wounded) as well as armament kills (main gun rendered unservicable).
Don't hold your breath, play combat mission if you want that type of realism, this game is not designed for that. Even Mod'ers can only do so much, but they are limited by the game engine. This game is based on hit points and statistical accuracy. They can only take it so far.
I also think the anti-tank guns are too effective (range and killing power). If a 75mm gun on a sherman couldn't kill a Tiger, then why would I think a 57mm antitank gun would have much effect?
You've fallen into the caliber trap here. The 57mm (The Americans copied the British 57mm) penetrated much more armor then the 75mm. Tests done by the British on Captured Tigers from North Africa showed the 57mm could go through the Tiger frontally at 250m to 300m on a fairly consistent basis. Mind you it generally had to be a flat angle impact. At 30 degrees it could go through the front of a tiger at 100m. Not exactly ideal ranges, but given the tank combat ranges in this game are damn well less then 300m I do not see a problem.
My point is just because the gun caliber is lower doesnt mean the gun was weaker. Its all about velocity. The Sherman gun was made for firing HE shells, which it did very effectively, not for AP shells, which it actually did well considering the restrictions. The 57mm had more Muzzle Velocity then the Shermans 75mm gun did, thus it penetrated more. ANother example is the fact the British 17 pounder 76.2mm and the German 75mm on the Panther had more penetration then the Tigers 88mm gun.
For a buttoned up tank, I would expect the effect that the game uses. But many tank commanders would stand up in the turret until taken under fire just to improve visibility and situational awareness.
Well I won't try to dispute you on this, but in reality many German Tanks had Cupola's for the Commanders to use, and many allied tanks had Cupola's and periscopes for the tanks that didn't have one to use. Those should be modelled as well for tank commanders that are buttoned up.
I am diggin the info here. I knew lots of it but not always specific numbers or examples In my view what'd be nice is an approximate of the relative strengths and weakness of the various AFV. I don't expect the 1000 yd + engagement ranges of the 88s or so but mebbe a little more range. Like someone stated here vis a vis roads. A nice straight road can be an awesome kill zone for any weapon much less a tank. So if things could be opened up about 2-300 meters more. I am not expecting combat missions fidelity but more of the visceral feel of the conflict. CoH does that fairly well and is very immersive despite the shortcomings discussed here. SO a little tweaking can go a long way. My hope is that enough of the gamey side of CoH will be nullified by mods and efforts of modders to make CoH an even more enjoyable game than it already is. That I feel is doable within the constraints of the CoH system...at least I hope it is :)
The problem with the tiger in this game is the fact the engagement ranges do not go beyond 100m. Tiger was meant for long range combat, its slow turret that did one full rotation in 60 seconds was not idea for close range combat. The tiger would be the beast it was if there was some form of realistic tank combat ranges, ie 500m to 1000m. The reason I do not have much hope for tank combat is that given the graphics for this game that kind of range is very much unlikely as it would kill your computer FPS. No mod will be able to fix that.
Its a great game, but tank combat is most likely the single weakest area in game, it killed single player for me and until I found a no-tank mod, had killed the game for me.
Well I know this game is not historical but I would like to kill the idea that Tigers were untouchable. Someone from a great WWII tank forum compiled all the data of Tigers knocked out due to exclusively enemy action. These numbers DO NOT include those sabotaged by their own crew or ran out of fuel, but to being knocked out. Ultimately of the 163 Tigers that served in Normandy, 69 were knocked out due to enemy action, representing 42-43% of all tigers in Normandy.
I would like to stress this is NOT my work.
A few people here wondered about the loss rate of Tigers in Normandy. After research and double checking I can now give the following information. Please note this is only losses due exclusively to ENEMY ACTION to make it more telling and losses through self sabotage and abandoned/ broken down Tigers which were more common (and most likely could have been recovered) are not included here. Where possible locations, method of ko and identified enemy unit is given.
Schwere SS Panzer Abteilung 101 ( had 45 Tiger Is and later 14 King Tigers in Normandy. Total = 59 Tigers):
13th June - 3 Tigers ko'd, one by Firefly and 2 by anti tank guns at close range and flank shots. Villers Bocage.
15th June - 5 Tigers destroyed, 4 in an air raid and 1 by enemy armour. Villers Bocage area.
16th June - 1 Tiger ko'd by anti tank gun. Near Cahagnes.
27th June - 1 Tiger ko'd by 75mm anti tank gun(of 199th Battery). Near Grainville.
28th June - 3 Tigers ko'd by enemy armour. Grainville and Rauray.
18th July - 1 Tiger ko'd by Firefly (of 5th RTR) through a haystack! Near Soliers.
20th July - 1 Tiger ko'd by enemy armour ( City of London Yeomanry).
8th August - 6 Tigers ko'd by enemy armour, 5 by Firefly by flank shots around Gaumesnil (including Michael Wittmann) and 1 near Bois Du Quesnay.
14th August - 1 Tiger ko'd by a Sherman at close range. Between Assy and Maizieres.
19th August - 1 Tiger ko'd by infantry (South Alberta Rgt) at close range. Saint-Albert.
24th August - 1 Tiger ko'd by M-10 (Norfolk Yeomanry). North of Montford-Sur-Risle.
27th August - 1 Tiger knocked out by anti tank gun (1st Worcestershires)at close range. Between Tilly and Vernonet.
29th August - 1 Tiger ko'd by enemy armour. South of Tilly.
30th August - 1 Tiger ko'd by Sherman at close range. Near Rozoy.
1st Company of SS 101 was re-equipped with King Tigers and saw action in late August away from the rest of the battalion near the river Seine.
23rd August - 2 King Tigers ko'd, 1 by M-10 (of TD Battalion 749) at Porcheville and 1 by anti tank gun at Melier.
26th August - 3 King Tigers ko'd, 1 by armour, 1 by anti tank gun and 1 by fighter bombers all around the Sailly/Limay area.
28th August - 2 King Tigers ko'd by enemy armour near Sailly/Montgison.
30th August - 1 King Tiger ko'd by British Shermans near Gissors.
(Total = 35 Tigers lost by enemy action out of 59)
Schwere SS Panzer Abteilung 102 ( had 45 Tiger Is in Normandy):
10th July - 4 Tigers ko'd, 2 by air raid and 2 by enemy armour (of 7th and 9th RTRgs). Near Maltot.
11th July - 1 Tiger ko'd by anti tank guns. Avenay.
26th July - 1 Tiger knocked out by close flanking anti tank gun. Feuguerolles.
2nd August - 1 Tiger knocked out by anti tank guns near Vire.
3rd August - 3 Tigers ko'd by enemy armour. Near Vire and towards La Graviere.
5th August - 1 Tiger ko'd by multiple artillery hits. Chenedolle.
13th August - 1 Tiger ko'd by enemy armour. Tournebu.
14th August - 2 Tigers ko'd, 1 by enemy armour and 1 by infantry. Falaise.
17th August - 1 Tiger ko'd by enemy armour near Damblainville.
19th August - 3 Tigers ko'd, 2 by anti tank guns near Brieux and 1 by infantry (South Alberta Rgt) near Saint-Lambert-Sur-Dive.
(Total = 18 Tigers lost by enemy action out of 45)
Schwere Panzer Abteilung 503 (had 31 Tiger Is and 28 King Tigers in Normandy. Total = 59 Tigers)
18th July - 13 Tigers and King Tigers ko'd, mainly by air action and bombing which proceeded Operation Goodwood, and a few by enemy armour. No further Tigers were destroyed exclusively to enemy action after this date in the actual Normandy area.
10th August - 2 Tigers immobilised by enemy armour and left behind. Plessis-Grimoult.
30th August - 1 King Tiger immobilised in heavy fighting and abandoned. Put out of action by Firefly. Beauvais(way north of Paris).
Numbers of King Tigers were damaged extensively by allied fighter bombers in late August and were then self sabotaged by their crews as there was no time or means to repair them. River Seine area around Mantes (north of Paris). It's not possible to determine numbers and work out how many were exclusively destroyed by air power.
(Total = 16 Tigers lost by enemy action out of 59).
On a side note I am not trying to say the tiger was a POS, but by 1944 it was much more vulnerable then it was the previous year.
Also again, the only way the tiger will be the Beast you guys want it to be would be the need to increase the combat ranges of tanks to at least 500m, but given the graphics for the game I doubt we will see many computers that could handle that kind of range for COH.