Spawn killing:Let us continue the debate, please! -1 reply

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Biggus Dickus VIP Member

I would die without my life.

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19th January 2004

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#1 14 years ago

Hi folks

I am sorry to tackle the subject once again but it's, more than ever, necessary.

We have all considering that to define in a clear way what is the spawn kill is very difficult. In fact, this debate only exists in Wild West. In RtCW and ET, nobody paid there the least attention. Then the new players who arrives in WW are unable to dicerne the thing, and do not even see if it's bad or not.

But if the WW community seek for fair game, it must define as a rule, which is the spawn kill, in order to legitimately be able to prevent or if necessary, to sanction a spawnkiller.

Why is it so difficult? One could think: "the spawn killing is the action to kill an opponent at his spawn point" Simple. But not realistic. If, on the beach map, I use the Gatling in bunker and shot the opponents on the beach at their spawn point, then it could be spawn killing, but currently it's not. If I use the sniper riffle in the main corridor of KFG, and shot any opponent who's get out of his room, then it could be spawn killing too. But it's not either.

There is at least an example of this kind to each map. And there are not many maps yet. So what could we do? We could think rightly that the consideration of the spawn killing is a question of good sense and appreciation. Of course! But we should not expect that all the players have the same appreciation. Somehow, it's not the case today. and I doubt that this will come all alone. A rule is NEEDED.

Yes, we can see an announcement in Lone Wolf about this. But is it enough? If a player don't know what is spawn killing, that is used for nothing.

LET US PUT EVERYONE OF AGREEMENT. LET'S DEFINE THE SPAWN KILLING ONCE FOR ALL. (and let's play instead of typing long post during hours!! ;) )

BD




Angel-Eyes

Born again Angel

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21st March 2003

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#2 14 years ago

I have to agree with you there about the debate, A lot of people asked why I didnt post in the last debate thread well it's as simple as this, common sense. If someone tells you you are spawn killing, and you see the opposing team spawning next to you or above you then you remove yourself from the area. There are some exceptions here where people do it to either cause trouble or to ruin a game. Also some people really have no idea what or where spawn is and others have a different idea of what area a spawn point covers. I will post my idea's along with detailed drawings (ok i'm no Rolf Harris) within the next couple of days to see what everyone thinks.




Biggus Dickus VIP Member

I would die without my life.

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#3 14 years ago

Yes, it will be a good start. Thanks for your time. I'm in hurry to see that. BTW, who is Rolf Harris? a new member? ;)

BD




adibou

I'm very active here, eh?

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11th February 2004

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#4 14 years ago

RUN FOREST RUN = don't be spawn killed - this is the name of the map " beach". I think,the gat should be remove from his place to another place or maybe, adding more no hurts time to players in spawn could change the thing. Just my opinion.




Hewster

WildWest Creator

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26th October 2002

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#5 14 years ago

I do agree to a certain extent that rules are needed, but in my experience its fairly obvious when someone is spawn-killing / camping..

Spawn-killing / camping is when a player stays at, or enters a certain spot, in the knowledge that when the opposing team spawns they will be able to shoot at them straight away, or within a few seconds.

IMHO, I believe the above statement pretty much spells out what spawn killing / camping is, and covers the uninitiated player too, since it must be done "with the knowledge" that the opposing team will be spawning there.

Of course it could be argued that we are only having these problems because map makers don't account for this type of abuse when they originally design the map, and to an extent this is true...

I am contemplating adding a "feature" to the mod, where any player killed within "x" seconds after spawn, when the attacking player is within "x" units distance of the spawn point, will be deemed to have been spawn killed, and the attacking player will be penalised... but this has many disadvantages, and possible would need to be setup on a map by map basis and even a spawn by spawn basis !

Also I disagree with you Bigus I have played on many RtCW servers where spawn camping is not allowed, and I have read numerous posts where this very topic have been discussed. At the end of the day its the decision of each server administrator what they wish to allow on their server, most players will understand when asked not to enter here, or camp there because it is deemed as spawn camping.. if they don't listen then a 5 minute kick will soon make then understand.. players who consistently spawn kill, even after polite advise, and kicking, need to be banned IMO, especially those who should know better ;) We are special in some ways since we are trying to increase the player base of WW, and as we all know if a player has a bad time the first time they play, it is very unlikely they will return... this would be different if there were 100's of servers, because they might try another server there they don't get spawn killed, but we don't, so we MUST keep LoneWolf the friendliest / fairest we can, I & the team are prepared to goto extreme lengths to ensure this is the case.

Hewster




Ignacio

Slap leather, varmint!!!

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#6 14 years ago

Something I worked up. Note*** These are just some guidlines, loosely based on the guides that El Dragon did. They are really more about "etiquette" than actual spawn camping, and are primarily to encourage fair play. The lines I drew are intended to be an imaginary line that defending players should refrain from crossing. They are, of course, free to shoot across them!..lol. The only exceptions I would point out are those instances where a player would jump down on the beach to defuse the dynamite, or jump down in the canyon to raise the drawbridge or defuse the dynamite. I have a standalone issue with the lower flag spawn on beach, due to several instances where my entire team spawned there, only to be killed by a perfectly timed molotov or nade. I don't know that I have a solution to it. The defenders have a perfect right to want to secure the flag again, which forces the attackers to spawn back on the beach again. I did not draw a line on the actual beach itself since that can be a whole debate by itself over the gatling gun position. Similarly, the attackers can spawn at the lower bunker flag, run up the left hand side, run past the fireplace, and arrive at the room by the bottom of the ladder, just in time for the defenders to spawn. Technically it ends up being spawn camping even though it is unintentional. Not sure what the answer would be to this either. Ig




Ignacio

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#7 14 years ago

Part II.




Angel-Eyes

Born again Angel

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#8 14 years ago

I think we both have the same idea on where the line is drawn there Ig, but I have to dissagree with the beach map. I think the line should be drawn at the first line of cacti near the wall anybody passing that line towards the beach , then that would be classed as spawn camping/killing. The flag building really is an objective at the moment so can be retaken, If anything I would suggest that if the map is modified then the flag could only be taken once by the cowboys and stay taken. That way then your current line would be valid. As far as the gatlin is concerned then because it is behind the drawn line then technically it wouldn't be spawnkilling. Another suggestion maybe that the gatlin is moved to another location where it is not possible to see the beach or to add another gatlin in the old bunker at the side of the beach, it gives the bandits something to think about then.




Biggus Dickus VIP Member

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#9 14 years ago

Yeah! Lot of topic here. It's good for debate. thank you to take share there! Let's go.

@ PapaAdi : The gat should not be removed or it will be useless. But I think that to give it a handicap, either by a specific overheating, or by a recharging (noticed that it was never reloaded?) would leave more movements to the attackers. Extend the zombie time is useless too because you're stuck during this time.

@ Hewster I would have also understood you without smillie! ;) hehehe but don't worry, for me he's not the only one who's concerned. Everyone is concerned, those which do it and those which undergo it. The new players and the "seniors". I don't think we can prevent that in the game itself. Or it will be a looooooooooooooong work for you, Hew! And the Iggy's example about a massive (or not) respawn near a flag when opponent wants to take it is a good example. I'm glad to know that spawn kill concern RtCW too. (give me a link, please!!!!) But did they found a solution? Something that could help us? Believe me, I sought, then if there is something good to take, it should be taken!

I know the will of the team to prevent the abuses of this kind. And I am sure that it will find out. But all the players don't do that for abuse, they do it (also) because they do not know what/where/when is spawn kill. For me, no need to change all the game for that. Just define what/where/when is spawn kill will be enough. And that's already a big work since there is lot of particular cases. At least as much as the number of maps.

@ Iggy and Angel the red lines are where I would have put them. It's true, the flags which can be taken again can be a problem compared to the red lines (in any map) It thus should be been appropriate if a flag remains with the attacker once taken. There is good and bad in this. I will think about it a little bit before delivering my opinion. But that's a very important point.




Guest

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#10 14 years ago

Iggy, nice work. But according to some of those lines, even I would be a spawn camper! lol Hewster, what if we integrate images of spawnkill zones into the game? For instance, you have 2 map loading screens. Keep the current loading screens while it's actually loading, then have a map specific screen of where the spawnkill zones are. It also requires the player to click an "accept" button to get to limbo.