Before I get flamed let me say, this is one of the, if not best, RTS's I've played to this day. The terrain deformation itself is knock over quality. Now on to my complaint. I've spent since Sac came out, playing regularly, to the point of very little sleep between those things called work periods. I love the game.. Until now. The past few days people have been noticing that charnels ranged unit, Fallen, are incredible. DK-AntPile, myself and one other person all created a private game and we tested it. Here was our results : 9 cogs vs 9 fallen == 2 cogs left, 0 fallen. 9 druids vs 9 fallen == 3 druids left, 0 fallen. 9 cogs vs ANY OTHER RANGED UNIT == 5 cogs or more. 9 druids vs "" = 5 druids or more. Usually the druids came out 1 above the cogs.
Now.. I've read ranged units weakness is meleers. But what kind of weakness is it, when fallen can kill flyers just as well as meleers? It's become common knowledge that Charnel is THE god to choose early game. 3/4ths of players are now either using charnel or a custom with charnel start. Those who aren't, are either brand new, or as deterined as I am to defeat it. But i've given up, as well as ant, in trying. We cannot find a solid strategy vs a fallen rush. I've heard shiny's reasoning for this is that charnel has lousy late game anti air. but Frankly, this is completely screwing up the game. After my last 5 games of being rushed by fallen, I'm THIS close to simply giving up. THe rest of the gods are, imho, perfectly balanced. But please, shiny, answer us this -- how did fallen get past beta phase? They have more HP then most lvl 1 meleers, they hit 90% more then other lvl 1 ranged units, and there's no contest vs flyers of any kind. Even avatars fall like gnats vs a small group of them. I haven't foudn a single way for any other god to defeat a fallen rush, little allone a 3/4ths fallen + a couple scythes. If I see a charnel player rushing me with say, 8 souls max, 6 fallen and 2 scythes, I just surrender. No point in watching the massacre, cuz i've seen the outcome far too many times. PLEASE SHINY! Believe us when we say this! Test it yourselfs! Fallen are going to mess up the game! If they haven't already, that is.
You may very well be right that they are unbalanced and need a revamp. I haven't done the testing and I'm not going to be one of the "it's balanced! STFU" guys. But there are other things to recommend the other units with that don't equate to pure combat. For example, the rangers have divine sight, an ability I am starting to find essential during the early game. Using it, I can cover the board more effectively getting those early souls faster. By judicious use of teleporting and maybe some crucial guardians, it may be possible to hold off the charnel rushes until the later stages of the game where they are less dominant. But I agree that if they appear to take apart meleers consistantly, they should be patched. I'd like to see the numbers for other ground ranged units vs cogs.
Or of course we could start games at level 3 or 4 when we epxect people to use a fallen rush. Get a few trolls in there to shake things up
I posted this a couple of days ago... no one listened
------------------ Fairness is a wonderful attribute... it has nothing to do with war. - Ender's Game
I emailed poopsie asking 'em to read this. We have to get them to listen, because imho it's the ONLY thing holdin this game down now.
Btw, vs other ranged units it was usually 5+ cogs left. Which is what it should be imho because it's the "Weakness", btw I tried the teleporting thing, they just tear you apart too fast. THey are at your altar asap.
And the lvl 3 thing is exactly my point of this whole complaint, by the time your lvl 3 in a game that starts at lvl 1, you've got fallen around your altar and your being desecrated. You have to start that high just to stop them.
And if they try saying charnel is weaker end game, no one stried feeding a couple souls to his devouring creatures, they get AWESOME.
Imho, everything seems really well balanced, cept the fallen
I forgot to mention, the abilities thing is a really good point, but that's also why persephone is the only one who stands half a chance vs the fallen, the other abilities don't really matter when your getting hammered by fallen. Her life shields let her druids live a SLIGHT bit longer then there rest. heh.
[This message has been edited by Zorlon (edited 11-30-2000).]
/me craves hard statistics
i wonder what i'm doing wrong... i usually use charnel / especially lots of fallen and my opponent mops the map with me. course I don't play enough. and I'm not very good. actually i'm not any good. but your post has given even the likes of me hope of someday seeing that elusive victory screen without it being a result of an opponent dropping. hehehe. i, for one, will be happy to use the fallen as my crutch until i can get better at this awesome game. i did not think it seemed unbalanced but then i haven't put enough time into the game either. i thought charnel's scythes (in numbers) were pretty effective too at lower levels. i dunno. good luck
------------------ "my creatures are dying..."
I didn't make it!
I really hate to agree, but it does seem that charnel has an early game lead. I still feel I can handle a multisouled creature end game but playing against charnel early requires a lot of skill. I would hate to see a patch nerf every god to be every other one though.
Well, awesome they may get but... Feeding them souls is somewhat micromanagement intensive, and it raises their cost to 7 or even 8 souls(hellmouths I mean), which is ALOT to pay for a unit that can be gibbed, charmed or raged. How do they compare to dragons & rhinoks for example? They had better be well superior at that cost.
This game punishes those who put all their eggs in one basket.
But in the interim, I think an agreement to start at level 3 would be a decent way of handling this problem for now.
Ahh, don't get me started on fallen. I've tried everything. I've even tried countering them with airforce. It always comes down to the same conclusion.
If the person you are playing is even remotely close to your level of skill, the charnel advantage is too great and you cannot win. If you outskill them greatly, you can win anyway. But ONLY if you outskill them greatly.
The problem is two fold. Scythes deal incredible amounts of damage, but have no hp whatsoever. Test the scythe damage sometime, they really deal it. Now, this is balanced and is exactly the opposite of druids, who are very difficult to kill, but don't deal much damage at all. The problem with the scythes is that you cannout counter them with airforce, which dispatches them quite quickly. Why can't you counter them with airforce you say? Well, because the fallen are so overpowered you can't beat em with melee. If you can't beat em with melee, how can you expect airforce to last more than 3 seconds against em.
Some gods have better melee than others. Some gods have better ranged than others. Charnel has show stopping ranged and very good melee on top of it.
Remember the paper rock scissors strategy Shiny was promoting so much before the game was released. Well, this holds true for every god except charnel. Fallen do NOT have a weakness to melee. They fare quite well against them.
------------------ Anything worth doing, is worth doing right.
I don't want every god to be the same. The gods being different is what makes it fun. Certain gods should have advantages, but they need weaknesses too.
When it goes too far is when I have no choice but to choose charnel to remain competitive. Charnel does not appeal to me and I do not find him fun to use. Although, if it's a 1on1 game that I want to win, and the other guy is using either charnel or a custom book that may have charnel opening units, I have no choice. I MUST pick charnel.
I usually do not use charnel even knowing this because I find Stratos, James, and even an occasional pyro game to be a lot more fun. I lose to a charnel because of this choice quite often. In the end, Stratos is my man and I cannot use him. It sucks really. Now, I love the game. I also know the Shiny team is only human and inbalances slip through when a game first comes our or large changes are made. As long as it is repaired I will be happy.
- Listian aka.. DK-Antpile www.dknights.net
------------------ Anything worth doing, is worth doing right.