Open Source modding -1 reply

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#1 12 years ago

Guys, this is an idea that's been kicking around in my head for a few days.

Now remember, this is strictly a "what if" thread, not an actual plan at this point, although it could become one.

It seems to me we have a lot of folks still modding/mapping for FH. And we have a lot of different teams: FHSW, Forgotten Honor, FN, BF singleplayer, R-BS mappack etc etc etc.

We've all done a pretty good job so far of not duplicating work, but i've been wondering if we could all accomplish more together?

I don't mean have one giant mod merger and be one uber-FH-team, i'm thinking something more along the lines of open source development.

Open Source Open Source development

So, does anyone think there would be any advantages to organizing the FH community into an open source system of development?




Natty Wallo

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#2 12 years ago

Im not a programmer so I might use the wrong terms etc when I say this.

DICE is the owner of the source-codes for bf1942, what we do when we "mod" cant really be "open source", since we dont actually re-program the game, we "re-script" it. For example when we make or edit 3D-models, paint textures, mix sound, re-script objects or make skins and maps, thats all "artistic" work that cant be applied to open-source.

What we could do is to set free all material to be used freely by anyone, anywhere, but thats not going to happen, we want the opposite of that, we want full control over all the work we do so people cant use our work without permission and the correct methods (for example making mini-mods). Is simply too much work behind making maps or 3d-models to just give away to someone, I like competition, its what you draw inspiration from and its sets new levels of professionalism that you need to follow, this makes mod community grow much faster and better than gaming community IMO, simply because there is no commercial aspect of it. IMO MOD community is allready sort of "open-source" since we use material that others have done, but we edit/tweak/alter it to fit our needs and what we want to do with the game. Its important that we follow the conduct that mod communities have, this means if you have made a model, I need to ask you to use that model, but I can do what I like with it if I get that permission, for example give it another skin, new sound, edit the script for that model etc. As long as i state where i got it from and so on. What we really should be focusing on is to make some sort of guidelines when it comes to editing other peoples work, for example a map, as I posted here:

http://forums.filefront.com/fh-mapping/325073-prepare-fight-carentan-2.html

Im still not sure how we can decide when something goes from being edited, to being original work. If some traces are left from the original product, then I think we need to adress this when we release objects and maps, but how to measure it?... in file-size or in time-it-took to make that product...?




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#3 12 years ago

It would be cool! ot: mEGA, HOWS YOUR MAP?




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#4 12 years ago

Well, you're right that the coding process really isn't open source because we already have the game. And attempting to make an entire map open source would probably not work simply because people want (and need) total control over the creative process of map design. I was thinking more along the lines of custom map objects and the like.

For example, I am making my map called Brecourt Manor (which I am working on). For this map I made a dead paratrooper in a tree model (like the German one in FH only with an American). Now suppose Reel-Bad Seed wants to make a Saint Mere-Eglise map and he wants to add a paratrooper hanging from the church steeple like the one in The Longest Day...since my objects would be distributed open source he could just take my para model and put it in his map, no problem.

You're right about community standards though...one thing I would like to add is that if you're mapping for a mod the rules are a bit different...for example, I made a B-25G for Solomons Air Battle. Of course my code is based on the FH B-25 code, just with a modified nose model and cannon added. Am I stealing FH code? Not at all, so long as my map is for FH. Now, if I copied this model and code over to, say, Battlegroup 42, then I would be stealing FH code because it was being used for another mod.

I am thinking about, once i've release my maps, releasing all my custom-made stuff for the FH community to use as they see fit in the future.




Natty Wallo

FH2 LevelDesigner

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#5 12 years ago

Hmm... well, "code" in this case .con files can not be owned by anyone.

If you add a cannon to a plane, you dont own the rights to add that cannon to that plane, so I can do the same object and use your .con file, no problem.

Its different with physical 3D models, textures or sounds, since they are a different type of product, if you use a FH 3d model (a tank) and you import it into 3dStudioMax and change something on it, then you apply a tweaked .con file code to it, then you have "edited" an object from FH and you need to state this in your release. You can't take this object and put into BG42 though, but you can use your code (.con code) and edit a BG42 tank in the same way, since in bf42 codes need to be in a certain way to make a vehicle. (there's only one right way usually, and u cant own the rights to a ww2 vehicle). Same is with maps, StaticObjects.con is not something you can own either.

Your paradrop guy is the same, you cant own the rights to make an american paradropper, and theres only one way to write an objects and geometries.con so it has the standardmesh of american playermodel + a parachute model attached to it, so if RBS takes your or makes his own its the same thing. however if you model an american playermodel in 3DSMAX or some other 3d program and release it as a new model (dead_american_paraguy.sm for example) then thats your work and RBS need your permission to use this. Both versions would still be using the FH skin though and as long as the map is for FH, thats cool, you couldnt use this para guy for BG42, since it has FH material, but you can use your code to apply to an object thats using BG42 parachute + playermodel etc..

confusing? yes... it is...




Mayhemic.MAD

praising the FH devs

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#6 12 years ago

I think the Term "Public Domain" would be more fitting for your intentions. It´s a very good idea in my opinion. Why shouldn´t you release you selfmade 3D models, textures or code lines (e.g. the aurora borealis) for others to use/extend in their mods or maps if they mention you as the creator. All BF42 mods and maps could be better quality or more diverse if more developers would think like you and not everyone developing the same solutions over and over again.

"Natty Wallo"we want the opposite of that, we want full control over all the work we do so people cant use our work without permission and the correct methods (for example making mini-mods).

Permission is needed, sure. But with Public Domain you have this permission. Control over the work sounds quite pointless if you think about it.. I´m pretty sure with some time I could realise the aurora borealis as well, or the FH pushcages and use it in my map. But it would be sad to waste time for something already done. I would rather have the same results mapwise by just using an existing solution and thanking the creator for making it and allowing me to use it. The time saved could allow me to code e.g. a train or more weather effects or something else not done before..

I still remember a BF42 map "Operation Magpie" with randomly moving clouds.. great airbattles.. very sad that no other map has yet used this feature :(




azreal

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#7 12 years ago

fine by me




Natty Wallo

FH2 LevelDesigner

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#8 12 years ago
MagicMAD;3843722 The time saved could allow me to code e.g. a train or more weather effects or something else not done before.. I still remember a BF42 map "Operation Magpie" with randomly moving clouds.. great airbattles.. very sad that no other map has yet used this feature :(

Finnwars mod have moving trains Our mod has dynamic weather :smokin:




Mayhemic.MAD

praising the FH devs

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#9 12 years ago
Natty Wallo;3844187Finnwars mod have moving trains Our mod has dynamic weather :smokin:

But that´s just what I´m talking about ! It´s nice that those teams made these effects and stuff, but what is their reason for not sharing it ? They could still use em in their own mods. Maybe someone else will further improve them, giving them back to the original dev. This way, they could even profit by sharing them.

Just pointing out that you got them and others don´t is exactly the Opposite of the community spirit that is usually associated with "Open Source" apps. :(




Natty Wallo

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#10 12 years ago

Well when we release our mod, mappers can make maps to it and put the rain in them... Forgotten Honor is the same as Forgotten Hope, its just an expansion, since FH stopped at 0.7, so there's really no reason to make FH 0.7 maps once our mod is released.