So I was thinking about Pacific maps recently, and it occurred to me:
Why do we always have to make the whole island?
Every Pacific map models the entire island, and they all end up with a similar layout. Anyways, I was wondering...how would Pacific maps turn out if some of them were made in the style of, say, Omaha Beach or Gold Beach, where an amphibious landing is being simulated.
This layout would be best suited for re-creating larger island battles such as Okinawa, Guam, Iwo Jima, the Philippines and the Solomons, rather than smaller islands such as Wake and Tarawa. It would also allow for a more detailed jungle environment.
Which brings up another pet peeve of mine...Guadalcanal. Good gosh I hate that map...wide open and lightly forested...what the heck? 2 things the DICE devs should have known:
1) This is what Guadalcanal looked like! 2) This is the part of Guadalcanal that was actually fought over! They didn't start off at opposite ends! I originally planned to make a map or 2 based on the REAL battles for Guadalcanal, but I am running out of time. Would make a very good map pack though...Bloody Ridge, Savo Island, Cactus Air Force, Cape Esperance, Battle of the Eastern Solomons, Battle of Henderson Field, Matanikau river...if only I had the time.
Anyways, I realize I got a little off-topic, but this thread was meant to be a discussion of map design for Pacific island maps. Another thing i've noticed is that a lot of Pacific maps are flat. When i've read about Pacific battles, many of them were not so flat...rocky outcroppings, caves, cliffs, tunnels carved into the cliffs complete with massive steel doors that opened to allow artillery to fire out of the mountain...
Anyways, i'd be interested to hear other mapper's ideas on the subject of mapping the Pacific campaign.
Very detailed and I'm sure the mappers will get it right, they didn't bother with the Vanilla map because it was a poorly designed map anyway.
My upcoming battan map is a full jungle map without coast of any kind, set completely inland. And i agree that some battles on big islands should be done differently than in the past. However some need to be done the other way to include naval assets that were relevant to the battle. I also have lots of pics of guadalcanal, including color pics of the terrain. edit: And rommel is right, most of the fh1 pacific maps were just edited versions of dice maps. We wont have that problem with FH2. And BF2's ability to handle large statics without major lag will mean big bunker complexes and mountain cave systems. All the stuff that couldnt really be done right on the bf42 engine. So the future of mapping more authentic pacific battles looks good.
Real-BadSeed;3857995And i agree that some battles on big islands should be done differently than in the past. However some need to be done the other way to include naval assets that were relevant to the battle.
That may be true in a few cases, but in most cases, in my opinion, the naval and land components of the battle happened so far apart that they really deserve becoming 2 maps (For example, the land battles of the Guadalcanal campaign and the sea battles).
Unless I misunderstood you and you were talking about naval gunfire support in amphibious assault maps, in which case my idea would still allow that (in the manner of Vanilla Omaha Beach and RtR Operation Husky.
Well i didnt mean major naval battles necessarily, those should be done stand alone. But some maps need ocean space around islands to place naval assets, and have them involved in the attack. (If that was historically the case) Not them just being an off-shore arti battery. Such as have an AirCraft Carrier for launching air support attacks. And then having a reasonable amount of space for it to move around, and also be attacked by the other team. Im not against your idea at all, in fact it would allow for much more detailed, specific aspects of battles. Like focusing on the ground combat or whatever. Keeping things "to scale" and so on. But i also think theres room for the other kinds of maps also. But i think they should only be done for small islands. The beauty of the other map style is you get all the different parts of combat involved in one map. Air,sea,and ground combat, which adds alot to immersion. Thats why i did Tulagi, its a small island and it fits this map type much better than the Saipan map i did. I dont think ill ever do a full island map, that out of scale and big, again. It just doesnt work imo. It would have been much better to do a series of maps representing different points of the battle. Like Saipan Day1, Day2, etc. etc. For large islands like Guadalcanal, Saipan and Okinawa,.. I fully agree they should do battles on those islands as you point out. And my intention is to do a map the way you describe, if/when i do a map for FH2. If it happens to be of a battle from one of the bigger islands. The reality is, that mappers cant do much without the direct cooperation of modelers, to make custom stuff specific to the location. Like a cave system for Iwo Jima or whatever. So i wont be doing much without that support. But i absolutely agree that battles like "Bloody Ridge" should be done the way you're saying. With the whole map being just the ridge and relevant terrain around it. Edit: Im so looking forward to the pacific theatre for FH2 its literally killing me waiting! Lush jungle undergrowth, dense trees, crazy bamboo stands, swamps and bogs, earthen bunkers and tunnel systems, man it cant happen too soon imo.
Megaraptor, we have around 15 maps that are what you describe, we got amphibious assaults and everything, the invasion of singapore, operation Dracula, the reclaim of Balikpapan city, Operation Thursday (glider operated inland assault) We do have a few whole island also, Java Island for example but I think we succeded to make it interesting still with the whole island visible on that map... it will all be in our mod, where we have this threatre-of-war (south-east asia with dutch east-indies, Burma, Singapore, Borneo, Sumatra etc) together with some very new cool features.
The way i see it. Big full island maps, or just really big maps in general, fit "vehicle play", more than infantry combat. Your suggestion is a much better way of representing famous infantry battles or beach invasions. So i think the trick is to design the map around the kind of play the map will feature. And i think the mistake is trying to meld them together too much on one map. Imo the map should focus on one type of combat or the other, vehicle or infantry. With the other type added in small amounts for immersion and historical reasons if needed. The maps cant be made to full scale, and the game cant support enough players to fully populate such big maps realistically "on the ground" either. So i think your suggestion is the way to go for ground combat maps of famous battles and invasions. I think the full island maps that have failed are the ones that are to overly complicated on the ground, and theres just not enough players for everywhere on the map, and in the air, and at sea. Thats why bf42 Midway vanilla is popular and works from a gameplay standpoint, because the island is very uncomplicated and the flags are close and there's only two land flags. And the sea flags are equal to the land flags value wise. And the map mostly focuses on vehicle combat. So its a matter of what kind of gameplay the map will feature imo. Thats what ive learned from designing maps and also observing how maps turn out in public play. edit: tbh, i was just getting started on making all kinds of pacific maps for Fh1 when it was discontinued, and i was planning maps as you've described. Such as my battan map which i started long ago, and has gone under several revisions. Bloody ridge was next on the list.
Real-BadSeed;3858359And i think the mistake is trying to meld them together too much on one map. Imo the map should focus on one type of combat or the other, vehicle or infantry.
Yeah, that was my main gripe about BF2...every map was like this.
Natty Wallo;3858289Megaraptor, we have around 15 maps that are what you describe, we got amphibious assaults and everything, the invasion of singapore, operation Dracula, the reclaim of Balikpapan city, Operation Thursday (glider operated inland assault) We do have a few whole island also, Java Island for example but I think we succeded to make it interesting still with the whole island visible on that map... it will all be in our mod, where we have this threatre-of-war (south-east asia with dutch east-indies, Burma, Singapore, Borneo, Sumatra etc) together with some very new cool features.[/quote]
That sounds wonderful, Natty. Status?
[quote=Real-BadSeed;3858359]The way i see it. Big full island maps, or just really big maps in general, fit "vehicle play", more than infantry combat....Imo the map should focus on one type of combat or the other, vehicle or infantry.....
Yes, and I get frustrated over "vehicle-centric" island maps. Solution is as you suggest.
jumjum;3858935That sounds wonderful, Natty. Status?
Yes if the god's of technology smiles upon us, we release this baby the 28th of september. And I do hope they smilin' =p