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Von Mudra

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25th September 2004

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#101 9 years ago
AlDaja;5225798Oooh how I love to stir the sh't pot...

Stir away. :naughty:

And well, it doesn't really matter if its still able to be gotten illegally or not, it sucks that your government is falling back on something so Suhartoesque as to ban a book.... What is the book exactly anyways? What is in it that your government doesn't like?




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#102 9 years ago

Well I think part of the problem is that Suharto and his cronies were never tried for what they did, never even investigated. Most of the books banned are histories, mainly about atrocities involving Suharto's consolidation of power, in which thousands of suspected communists were massacred. The government is not yet ready to explore that past. Also banned is the Australian film "Balibo" about the death of five Australian journalists during the invasion of East Timor, and ironically a book titled Lekra Doesn't Ban Books, about the leftist cultural institute. The reason I find all this so unnerving is the luxuriousness democracy the Indonesia otherwise enjoys.




Von Mudra

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#103 9 years ago

Yep, no democracy (or any nation for that matter) should ban books of any kind, no matter if the government doesn't like them, or even if other people like them. I do hope this doesn't end up leading down a bad road for Indonesia, that country is just starting to pull itself back up onto its legs after those decades of complete and utter mismanagement.




Zoo_MotorPool

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#104 9 years ago

OK, lets make this somehow related to topic. You Americans are ungrateful with you government, aren't ya? You call him "communist" "making America into 3rd world country".

Obama spent some of his childhood here. Let's take a glimpse on what he went through. (maybe not all of it, just some), but I went through it. Here is some 3rd world country praised by most western countries:

Well, CPS, about Soeharto, dare you tried him... do you?

Last time he won lawsuit against TIMES magazine for an article about his wealth. Most Indonesians simply feel cheated. The world looks powerless.

Anti-communist

Soeharto himself is not 100% bad guy. He is made into one. When the whole NATO-bloc (especially US) fearing Soekarno turning into Communism and due to the increasing popularity of PKI (Partai Komunis Indonesia/Indonesian Communist Party), he was made into prominence, because of his strong anti communism stance. One of the example is shown here by CPS:

...atrocities involving Suharto's consolidation of power, in which thousands of suspected communists were massacred...

Adding some info: it was suspected in Bali.

I bet he is a very intimate friend of Republican senator Joe McCarthy and Richard Nixon at that time LOL. His ways are: banning PKI forever, ostracized its members, including its descendants (even their innocent grandchildren). But during the cold war, it simply went out of human rights watch, because communism is the ultimate evil. And we are sooo American-biased, we even destroyed most of our communist-bloc weapons, making our military far weaker in order to procure more western-built arsenal so we don't need any more spare parts from them. They basically tried to eliminate any contact with communist countries.

East Timor

The next thing is east Timor. It is not a war that entirely bad by that time's standard. It was 1975, US has left Vietnam into the hand of the communist. While starting to open diplomacy to communist China, they still feared that South East Asia would eventually fell into communism one by one (the domino effect theory), beginning from Vietnam, Cambodia, ... then perhaps Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, and Indonesia, at that time the 5th largest country in the world.

In East Timor, the Portuguese left them in vain, there is a bloody civil war between the Fretilin (communist) against nationalist. At that time, due to a very strong anti-communist stance by Indonesian regime, a decision to invade east Timor were executed. With the help of recently supplied ex-USAF C-130 Herkies (many suspected that it was secretly backed by US via CIA), a massive paradrop mission over Dili (Operation "Seroja") began. Fighting like fanatics, both sides commit a lot of atrocities. The war turned into some bloody massacre for Indonesians, so a very cruel execution is carried to stop more casualties, hence there was a huge blackout on news and reports about the war.

Some war veterans from East Timor are now big bosses, some still remain in the army holding a top positions. Recently, democracy has brought them to return into political arena. Some do it clean, more do it dirty.

What you all are concerning about is not so important to your government currently. As long as what you call this "Soeharto-esque" government is doing is good, like helping the west pursue Al-Qaeda cells, gathering intel on their activities, standing against them, it is all like "whited out". Both Bush Jr. and Obama praised Indonesia as "a leading example of Islam and democracy in Asia". Not to mention praise from Europe and Australia. When SBY won, Kevin Rudd and few neighboring countries was one of the first leaders congratulating him, followed by Obama.

Democracy in Indonesia: At 1960s-1990s, the cause is communism Today, the cause is terrorism The victims are Indonesian people.

A few hints on our anti-communist propaganda fed into school (i was in elementary school when this kind of "special lesson" are compulsory education material):

Our very understanding about communism is their religious stance instead of their political agenda, perhaps only unique to Indonesia:

  • Communist does not believe in God, they insult your God (in Indonesia, we must pick a religion, just pick one, even though you are not really practicing it) This propaganda is meant to capitalize from religious and pious people.
  • In communist, they share everything, not only wealth, they even share your wife! OMG... such animal (they taught us, that communists are animals).
  • PKI
  • Every 30th September, the day PKI started the rebellion, we (starting from 6 years old) are 'forced' to watch G30SPKI (abbreviation for 30 September PKI-movement), a very cruel, unrated film (i guess it must be Mature or +18), showing how PKI activists scheming, planning, and finally kidnapped 8 Indonesian Army generals and officers who were suspected of being anti-PKI. The film was so dramatized that after the bloody massacre (showing gore, dismemberment, cry of pain something unsuitable for kids), the party members danced and dozed themselves over the killings.
I bet McCarthy and Nixon went "Om nom nom nom" reading this.

What we learn is that the truth will always unveils itself on the right time.

The Books

VM,

And well, it doesn't really matter if its still able to be gotten illegally or not, it sucks that your government is falling back on something so Suhartoesque as to ban a book.... What is the book exactly anyways? What is in it that your government doesn't like?

There are 6 books. The most prominent one is "Gurita Cikeas" (Cikeas Octopus), Ciekas is the residence of our current president SBY (A US Ranger tab and airborne badge holder, Fort Benning and Webster University Alumni). It generally throws so many rumors about our president being a mafia-esque, heavily corrupt, and all the bad things to cause turmoil in this government.

Since 1998, Indonesians never trusted their government, it took just as easy as few words to stir a riot and bloody revolt against the government. While the information are unconfirmed, it is less important. They are just wanting to have something against the government. Political oppositions won't waste any seconds trying to capitalize on this. There are actually no solid government in this country.

It is just like China, they want a stable government to continue the development, and they can't let so many uneducated, brutal, short-tempered provocateurs and anarchists to read controversial material and went amok. It halts the development. Same here... hence the banning of the books. Not only PRC and us, Arab countries, Malaysia, Thailand, India... almost all Asian countries including Japan do this. I'm certain.

Scapegoat

When any western opinions like you guys here criticize this kind of policy. The most common reply would be: you (western countries, especially US) don't want us to advance, so you stir problem in our ass. It is basically misunderstand meets scapegoating, nobody is right.

I myself have always been a conservative and generally likes the US Republican party (except their candidates). But in our democracy, there are no political beliefs, it is just political power. They change their stance repeatedly just to gain more power.




Von Mudra

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#105 9 years ago
Zoo_MotorPool;5226145 I myself have always been a conservative and generally likes the US Republican party (except their candidates).

Haha, you and me both. :D

And wonderful post, Zoo. I think you really hit some important points there.... Especially on how the US backed Suharto due to his anti-communist standpoint, whilst ignoring his crimes against humanity. I, for one, have never been supportive of some of the things we did in the Cold War in the name of preventing the spread of communism...supporting brutal dictators just because they sided with us against the communists (Suharto, Saddam, Pinochet, Peron, etc....) was simply a very, very poor policy....

And while I will agree that your nation has been doing wonderfully in the advance of human rights, and the war on terror, it is simply wrong of the world to then gloss over affronts to the Indonesian people's rights such as the banning of books. No government has the right to oppress its people, no matter the good works that it carries out in the world. If North Korea were leading the rescue effort in Haiti, they wouldn't appear as any less of an evil government in my eyes, or the worlds. So imo, the governments of the USA, Europe, etc, shouldn't gloss over the banning of books in Indonesia just because they're advancing else where. It has to be something that is called out, and put pressure against. Otherwise, the Indonesian government WILL simply slowly take over again, much as Chavez in Venezuela. The Indonesian people will suffer, and the world will pat their government on the back and say "Hey, good job on giving women their rights."




Zoo_MotorPool

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#106 9 years ago

Basically i feel that many westerners asked oppressed people from other nations to be "freed". Because, they expect a more well-informed communications with all parties involved being enabled to access limitless information.

What is so wrong

You know, i hate it too when hearing those Ayatollah (Shiite Muslim leaders in Iran) scholars at Qom (holy city of Iran) discussing Tom & Jerry made by giant American corporation Disney being a Jew conspiracy (Jerry representing the jews, Tom, the cat/the Prophet's beloved pet, you know). And Chavez being couldn't get a grip... at first he says car manufacturers are the biggest evil of human kind, he prohibits any desire to own one (I can agree on certain point). Recently he opened a brand new "socialist" car factory on Venezuela, producing copycat old models (WTF? With poor working conditions LOL). I admire Mugabe's aspiration for the advancement of his country, but what did his wife do? I think, many European countries feel obliged to ban her from doing more spending-spree throughout glamorous Paris shop street.

Why

While these leaders are highly anti-American or anti-West, their message wasn't well-informed enough. Although i don't like Bush jr., Chavez' lash at UN conference wasn't any smarter either. Any uneducated hoodlums could outdo him at that anger-filled emotional speech. He basically is just using his position, which he got from an armed coup d'etat to make that kind of cheap insult speech headline-worthy. A well-informed critics at US thrown by experts from Harvard or Cambridge should worth 1,000 times more. Today, it is just too easy for anybody to get power, regardless of their intelligence. As the Chinese says: "Even Chen She can become an emperor" (Chen She is a lucky stupid platoon leader who lead rebellion against Qin empire, secured a small portion of land, and reigned for just 6 months before being slain by his enemies).

Chavez called Obama "a bit smarter than the previous leader." IMO, he is undoubtedly not in any position to speak something like that. Did those Qom scholars know that Tom & Jerry was made by Disney's arch-rival Hanna-Barbera before bought by Warner Brothers? And did they know that Disney has been an adamant conservative (related to their Jew stance)? Did Mugabe (a school teacher) knows what it takes to control your own landlocked country's economy?

Must admit that...

Iran is one of the most "free" Muslim countries, compared to US-supported Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Every ethnic minorities there are guaranteed to have seat in the parliament, even jews have their own freedom to practice their belief, kept nude arts, drink alcohol, and have a representative in the senate. They have broadband internet connections, subways, ski holiday resort just north of Tehran. Iranian hackers are one of the world's best, most of them can access free information through proxy servers, outsmarting the officials. Shari'a law are enforced to women only by police women. Women can still drive, heck, they have their own taxi company which all of the drivers are women. We don't even have it in Indonesia, let alone democratic Japan, and rarely in US or Europe. Al-Qaeda called them heretic and an they are their arch-enemy. Hence the president repeatedly saying "Iranians enjoyed more freedoms than before" (during Ahmadinejad's era, the law of wearing veils/niqab/burqa are relaxed).

And lastly, what Ahmadinejad says is not exactly denying the holocaust, but to be precise: "call for more study about the facts." After that, he repeatedly denies holocaust occurrence. Many interpret this as "denial". The background of this kind of doubt is raised from many conspiracy theorist that believed that the holocaust was a part of international crime of setting up production in Germany and using jews as cheap labor/slaves for some US companies' advantage.

Ahmadinejad is one of the most emotional speakers in front of media though, but as most politician in third world country, they all do... surprisingly, still bewildering many westerners when he said that he will "erase Israel from the world map." One of Indonesia's ad-hoc investigation committee member lashed "fuck you" to another member of the parliament during a live-recorded session. Well, shall I remind you about Silvio Berlusconi? You took his words too seriously.

I have to be fair here... IMO, they owning a nuclear missile is 1,000 times less dangerous than North Korea (which is already tested and working). Their leader, leads by cult of personality and literary, the whole country has already been brain washed and deliberately misled.




Meadow

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#107 9 years ago

Just throwing my hat into the ring here re: democracies banning books. IIRC, the Marquis de Sade was banned in this country (the UK) after it was found on serial child murderer Ian Brady's bookshelf. However, this was quickly downgraded to a restriction (could be found in libraries but not accessed without permission) and eventually it re-entered circulation legally.

Less controversial, however, is the legal status of 'Final Exit' - a book detailing the most efficient ways to commit suicide. For perhaps obvious reasons, this book is illegal to sell or distribute, but as we are not fascists in this country, if a library has it in its stock you have every right to request to read it on their premises. You just can't take it out of the library - like many other rare books these days, anyway. All this was accurate a few years ago - things may have become more lax since then.




Admiral Donutz VIP Member

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#108 9 years ago

The most efficient way to commit suicide? Consult your GP and try to get aproved for euthenesia. Not sure in how many countries that is a legal option but it beats jumping infront of a train, hanging yourself or other selfish options that shock others if not traumatize them for life. If your GP can't direct you to a hospital for euthenesia (because you don't meet the requirements) he'll atleast get some proffesional help to try and get yourself on the road again.

That and with the internet around there are bound to be sites that cover subjects like this. The risk here is probably higher then with a book though. I'd expect any creditable, self respecting author to give some proper, well founded advice (facts), an internet page may be less reliable.

Banning books is quite silly. I believe the only book that is banned here is Mein Kampf, though special versions such ones that analize it are okay. I'm quite sure I saw such a special version of Mein Kampf laying around a major bookstore down town... Sure enough such books are "senstive" subjects but people who really wish to read it will be able to get the book through illegal ways and then there would be plenty of people who read such books to get a better understanding of the author/subject. Reading a book by Hitler/Marx/Bin Laden/Stalin/Ghandi/.../whoever/ doesn't mean (perse) that you agree with their vision...

PS: For those who wish to discuss banning books, edittign books and such this may eb an interesting topic, it concerns the Texas school board and how they ban/censor books and topics to fit their world view: http://forums.filefront.com/pub/415836-texans-re-writing-history.html