I can concur with Lobo's love for the USA. He hates Bush and has liberal tendencies but his heart is in a good place. I don't agree with #3 above for this reason: When you start dragging war-type crimes in civil proceedings you will get the best justice money can buy. Think OJ Simpson. You cannot give your country's civil rights to people that are not citizens of your country. There is no "one world" justice system though I have no doubts of some trying to impose/create this concept. No one in the US can honestly say that his rights have really been violated by changes to get info to combat terrorism. Only international calls, transfers of money and that sort of deed done by terrorists are supposed to be scrutinized. Might some innocent been penalized? Even though I see no proof perhaps. But do the ends justify the means? Yes. Please don't quote Abu Grabme, Club Gitmo (Your Friendly Resort from Jihad) and ***horrors*** waterboarding as anything but pampering and fattening war criminals. That line is just so back of the buss and doesn't say anything of substance to those that know how US/UN people have been treated/kidnapped/killed/beheaded/paraded/mocked by terrorists.
Yes, I guess we will never agree in that.
I like to remember how we dealt at Spain our tragic event in this madness, we didn't tortured anybody, we didn't start a war, we hunted them down, we trialed them and the guilty ones are on jail ------> police work, Justice work, dark not fancy work well done...with each country your armies send to Stone Age with no strategic gain they get more and more brainless recruits
I know our slaughter was not so terrible and USA is dealing with the big boss of terror and not with some of his low level grunts like us but I still think things must be diferent if we want to win and not to loose our principles on the trip
@Gen'l Knight, in Spain liberals are rightwingers, don't call me that, please :lol:
If we could wrap it up as neatly as Spain did that would be great. We are fighting ourselves (government bureaucrats) as much as the enemy. It's been that way since Viet Nam...
Lobo, maybe I was knee-jerking on the hate the USA piece, but that was just my gut reaction at the time. Call it the heat of the moment and if I offended you, I apologize.
Personally, I thoroughly enjoy these discussions and I'm glad we have this forum as an outlet. This is one of the few boards where folks can really "get into it" without it turning into a bunch of four letter insults. And the same group of guys can then move to another thread and have a good laugh - I like that.
I think Lobo is right. The Republican Corporate Police state machine has been looking for a excuse to get tough and implement tougher laws and allow police less restrictions.
The US is no longer run by people for the people its run by people serving the best interest of whatever corporate entity bought them. It has been about corporations for some time.
Should change the name from United States of America to Corporate States of America.
9-11 handed to them the excuse they needed on a silver platter.
As I have said before it reminds me of the scene from "Star Wars: The Revenge Of The Sith"
"So this is how liberty dies – with thunderous applause." ―Padmé Amidala, on the formation of the Galactic Empire
*sigh* Someone please put this thread down.
Meh, that particular Star Wars line was much-commented on at the time as being an intentional attack on Bush. It doesn't count as an ironic instance of life imitating art when it was quite literally the other way around.
***Sigh Sigh*** I don't know if I have the resources to fight a war on two fronts... I'll have to sleep on this one..
My contribution to (attempt to derail) this thread is old, "The Empire were the Good Guys" article from forever ago. The Case for the Empire