Bf 109E Jabo -1 reply

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[CoUk]niu

I take what n0e says way too seriously

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12th March 2004

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#81 16 years ago

ok,some facts then:hurricane with 2x250 lb bomb:top speed 320 mph,with 2x500 lb:top speed 307 mph,clean 340 mph.

stuka:top speed242 mph




Tas

Serious business brigade

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3rd September 2004

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#82 16 years ago

I do agree with butter, there is no real effective counter against planes on the desert maps, no place to run, no place to hide. Mobile AA is fragile as **** and a short MG burst from a plane will rip it apart. The staghound AA isnt worth being called AA, flak88 halftrack is worthless and cant turn worth ****, shield is in the way. other axis AA is impotent at best. you cant set up your mobile AA for long cause friendly tanks are often on the move, positions that offer cover limit your field of fire/view. Enemy armor will have no problem taking you out when cought with your pants down..:moon: But sure, lets add more ground attack aircraft.




MrFancypants Forum Administrator

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#83 16 years ago
LordbutterIf fighter/bombers are reduced to bombing your main spawn...aka..german base....you have already lost the map. The fighter/bombers have probably devistated your tanks, which allowed allied tanks to roll over your infintry, which lead to you loosing your flags, and now you are being camped...at this point talking about aa is worthless... True WWII fighters could just drop their ordinance, but usually they didnt. Only if they HAD to. Wouldnt make much sense to be sent out on a shortie to attack enemy tank formations just to drop your ordinance half way there. They were EXPECTED to take out the formations. Not dogfight. This was left to escorts which were set up to be PURE fighters. To counter the added weight of the bomb loads some planes had to carry less fuel or ammo. These planes didnt want to DF at all. Again, AA isnt a viable option to counter fighter/bombers. Ive seen most so called pilots in FH are dumb as a box of rocks. Just because you can shoot down these pilots dosnt mean its a good counter. There are techniques for taking out flak positions that a good pilot can easily do to which a flak gunner will never see the pilot coming. And at some point most pilots will learn these. Then flak will be worthless. Why shouldnt two planes decide a map? Hmmmm....on a fifty-two player server maps like El Al and Gazala are constantly decided on how good the allied pilots are. If the allied pilots have an inch of skill they can wipe out the entire german armor. Thats rediculous. Two tanks or a ship may decide the outcome at one flag, but not the outcome of an entire map.

About mainbases, I've seen people strafe runways before the map was decided. Remember El Al in 0.5? It was a constant airfield-raping because there simply wasn'nt enough flak. This has changed on most maps and decreased the effect of planes quite a bit.

My point was just that if a plane HAD to dogfight it would rather drop it's bombs than be shot down. I talked about this situation as it is the one which occurs most often in FH.

Sure, you can always take out AA if you are clever, just as you can take out a heavy tank with a light tank. It just takes a bit more time. And look at maps like El Al, if you attack one flak position after another you will be busy the whole round, as the AA guns respawn quite quickly. And if you attack other targets you are always a target for AA fire. What is more, even as skilled pilot it can be difficult to take out flak tanks. At least if there is someone with a brain sitting in the flak-tank.

The planes aren't the problem. The problem is perhaps that there are not enough people who know how to shoot down a plane. How often do you see a skilled Me109 pilot on Gazala? If you have skill then it's ok if your plane helps deciding a map. It's the other side's fault if they don't use AA guns on Gazala, shoot down bombers with tank mainguns, or use their fighters. Maybe the Hurricane is a bit too strong, but IMHO it's a matter of finetuning. When you see that one side is going to win because of one bomber, well, just shoot it down three times in a row. The pilot will get bored of flying and will take a tank instead. Or maybe some idiot will jump into the bomber before he can.




Lordbutter

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#84 16 years ago
MrFancypantsAbout mainbases, I've seen people strafe runways before the map was decided. Remember El Al in 0.5? It was a constant airfield-raping because there simply wasn'nt enough flak. This has changed on most maps and decreased the effect of planes quite a bit. My point was just that if a plane HAD to dogfight it would rather drop it's bombs than be shot down. I talked about this situation as it is the one which occurs most often in FH. Sure, you can always take out AA if you are clever, just as you can take out a heavy tank with a light tank. It just takes a bit more time. And look at maps like El Al, if you attack one flak position after another you will be busy the whole round, as the AA guns respawn quite quickly. And if you attack other targets you are always a target for AA fire. What is more, even as skilled pilot it can be difficult to take out flak tanks. At least if there is someone with a brain sitting in the flak-tank. The planes aren't the problem. The problem is perhaps that there are not enough people who know how to shoot down a plane. How often do you see a skilled Me109 pilot on Gazala? If you have skill then it's ok if your plane helps deciding a map. It's the other side's fault if they don't use AA guns on Gazala, shoot down bombers with tank mainguns, or use their fighters. Maybe the Hurricane is a bit too strong, but IMHO it's a matter of finetuning. When you see that one side is going to win because of one bomber, well, just shoot it down three times in a row. The pilot will get bored of flying and will take a tank instead. Or maybe some idiot will jump into the bomber before he can.

People do straph runways before maps are decided yes...those people are idiots...Love seeing your fighters attacking unmanned enemy ground planes before they take off while your stuka is getting shot down. But basing maps on these people is not the way to go. We dont base maps on the general idiot. Busy bombing aa positions...well consider this....A hurricane gets 2 250kg bombs which is easily enough to take out any flak position. Most flags have 1 to 2 flak positions at them. All you need to do as a fighter/bomber pilot is to follow your main tank force. You take out the flak guns (if manned), reload, then bomb all enemy tanks...this can easily be done way before another flak gun spawns. Your team caps the flag, then you move on to the next. Its real simple...and theres not a whole hell of alot any aa gunner can do. Shoot down bombers with main tank guns? Ya that works for B17's and slow bombers such as that. Hit a Hurricane...dont think so...




Lordbutter

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#85 16 years ago

You need to be clever to take out a flak positition? Its actually quite easy...no cleverness needed. Planes effectiveness recduced because now they cant straph planes on the runway? Please...only nubs need to shoot at planes on the ground. Any player with half a brain can easily get out of that. Hurricanes packing two 250kg bombs have no problem taking out ANYTHING. And have no downsides. You can dogfight with anything, kill any ground target, and dominate a map. I remember people bitching about Expacs being overpowered because they could take out anything. At least you had to walk to the target to use expacs....i can just fly over and bomb your nice KT before you know what hits u, then proceed to shoot down your 109. Too much power.




mondogenerator

Wolfgaming.net *****istrator

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24th September 2003

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#86 16 years ago
LordbutterTheres always gotta be a wiseguy....Im talking if we coded a reduced preformance version of the hurricane. What would be the real FLIGHT differnce between the two. There really wouldnt be one.

Given the flight models are completely unrealistic anyway I don't think it would make much difference.




Major Hartmann

Major Disinformation

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27th April 2003

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#87 16 years ago
LordbutterRealism says planes carrying bombs need to have reduced preformance. That is quite possible in this engine. But its not in..why is that? Because this mod isnt diving into the realm of realism anymore. Look at .65. Not much but a trace of realism is left. Its almost if this mod is taking a different road. So if realism isnt the path we take, we need to at least give anything a countermeasure..which fighter/bombers have none. AA against a Fighter/bomber...Dont make me laugh...Any pilot with half the iq of a monkey can kill an aa gun before the flak gunner even gets a chance to see him. Between new guns and carrying 2 bombs flak positons are a joke. Other fighters....Heres the only real threat they have....but look at it like this....you need a fighter that only can hurt airplanes to kill these fighter/bombers. While fighter/bombers are a threat to air and ground. That is too much power for anything to have. 2 fighter/bombers can easily decide the outcome of a map. El Al and Gazala proving this time and time again. 2 planes shouldnt be able to decide the outcome of 50 player servers. But they can and can easily.

Well, you could tell us how this is possible in this engine....




MrFancypants Forum Administrator

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#88 16 years ago
LordbutterYou need to be clever to take out a flak positition? Its actually quite easy...no cleverness needed. Planes effectiveness recduced because now they cant straph planes on the runway? Please...only nubs need to shoot at planes on the ground. Any player with half a brain can easily get out of that. Hurricanes packing two 250kg bombs have no problem taking out ANYTHING. And have no downsides. You can dogfight with anything, kill any ground target, and dominate a map. I remember people bitching about Expacs being overpowered because they could take out anything. At least you had to walk to the target to use expacs....i can just fly over and bomb your nice KT before you know what hits u, then proceed to shoot down your 109. Too much power.

I meant relatively clever. Like, a bit more clever than the usual noob who flies with 50mp/h 50 meter above the ground. About straginf runways, my point was that it is easier and faster to destroy a plane on the ground, not that it is something heroic :) I agree that the Hurricane may be a bit too strong, that's why I said that it's a matter of finetuning. But it's not that much of a problem. Never saw anyone here complaining about the Typhoons on Breakthrough, they can kill tanks and planes easily too and there are 3 or 4 of them in the air at the same time. Still the Germans have a chance of winning.




emonkies

I'm too cool to Post

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16th July 2003

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#89 16 years ago

I would not call taking a Hurricane II which has a clean top speed of roughly 340mph, add 2 x 500lb bombs which brings top speed down to roughly 305mph nothing. And with the 2 x 500lb bombs under the wings the Hurricane will have a reduced roll rate further reducing its manuverability. So adding the bombs reduces top speed by roughly 40mph, reduces roll rate and turn rate.

In the case of a Bf109E-4 with a top speed of roughly 354mph and a Hurricane IIC with a top speed of roughly 342mph the speed difference is not significant, yes the 109 is faster but fast enough that you would not be able to get a shot at it going by. Now consider a 40mph speed difference and you are now talking about a completely different situation. A 109 chasing a Hurricane about to bomb a target may not be able to get into firing position before the Hurricane reaches its target but a 109 going 40mph faster is much more likely to achieve firing position much sooner. Ever been passed by a car going 40mph faster? it feels like your sitting still.

If the game engine could suport both flight versions then it becomes necessary for a fighter bomber to jettison its bombs in order to defend itself meaning that the interceptor performed its job, the bombs did not arrive on target.




Lordbutter

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#90 16 years ago
Major HartmannWell, you could tell us how this is possible in this engine....

I dont think it is Hartmann...and unless it is adding more uberdominate fighter/bombers will turn maps into horribly boring planerapes...Thats why the idea of fighter/bombers need to be ditched...keep it to simple fighters, divebombers, and bombers...each side has its own plane to suit each role in that fashion. And each plane has its downside so as to be not soo dominate in every arena. No needed coding, no needed testing, simple. This will also allow for time to be spent on the physics of flight in FH and other areas that really need it. Ill even list some examples... American: Fighter- (depent on time) Europe -p40, middle years P38, latter p51 or Clean P47 Pacific - Wildcat, hellcat, Corasair Divebomber....heres a little harder part because american's didnt really have a dedicated DB in Europe. So either code in a P47 with reduced flight (like it used to be on bocage .61) or just dont add one...Americans have better Mulitengined bombers anyway. Bombers....Dont count the b17's or anything larger then that towards the bomber count. These planes are usually worthless in battle and only serve as novelties. Designing an A-20 could go along way here, or just keep the b25. and say vs german... Fighter: Obvioulsy a 109...dependent on year would show us what model to use. Also for something different you could throw some FW around. And maybe in later years a 262. Divebombers...Stuka....You could use this throughout the whole game...Maybe even giving Different varients on a map. A 1000kg bomb, 3 250kg bomb version, 37 mm version. You could spice it up here... Bombers...Ju88....again..the hinkel is nice but only novelity..usually just gets shot down by a tank. Ju88 works nicely.