Mas 38 -1 reply

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Danger X

Giving ideas as I go along

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2nd August 2007

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#1 10 years ago

Maybe it has been discussed before, but I wanted to know if the Mas 38 will be included in the upcoming patch, or in any stage of the game for that matter. If not, could you please consider it? I don't know a hell of a lot about it, apart from the fact that it has been used by vichy france, and many countries used it as a reference when developing other weapons. Many thanks, Danger X




Niebler

[130.Pz]A.Niebler

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2nd August 2006

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#2 10 years ago

Maybe in the early war invasion of france battles as it was in FH1 :P But I wouldn't expect it until we see some more fronts more likely and they go back for details/more maps




Danger X

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#3 10 years ago

I never even noticed it was in FH1. I will check it out first thing. Thanks man




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#4 10 years ago

I don't remember it in Fh1 either. I do remember it in FHT mod though...




Danger X

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#5 10 years ago

I saw the model on teh site, in the weapons section of FH1, under france. I will play that map shortly, to test the MAS. I believe it is on the first map with france.




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#6 10 years ago
Danger X;4440559I saw the model on teh site, in the weapons section of FH1, under france. I will play that map shortly, to test the MAS. I believe it is on the first map with france.

It's in Counterattack-1940 and in Fall Gelb-1940 from Fan Mappack 6.




Danger X

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#7 10 years ago

Just finished playing Counterattack inFH1, and I have Three words for the MAS 38: Great Stopping Power. It is great for tank drivers, the way it is used in the map, and it would really make you run for cover, when you hear it. I want it in FH 2, no matter how restricted it will be.




Johannes

France's Bitch

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#8 10 years ago

It had better be very restricted, as the fact of the matter is it was an extremely rare weapon. Few more than 2,000 (some say 1,900) were produced before the fall of France and irregularly issued (not standardized). They were literally almost unheard of in the colonial empire, even in the powerful North African army. The Vichy French North African Army during the Tunisian campaign had very few submachine guns, most of which were lent to them by the Americans and British (largely 1928A1 Thompsons and Sten SMGs).

Ironically, the MAS 38 was known for having poor stopping power due to the weak 7.65 mm Long type round it fired. On the other hand, its materials were high quality and it was very accurate.

Here's an article I wrote on the MAS 38 a few weeks ago (Sources: Various, including armement reglementaire francais, Osprey Men at Arms series, the official French government's military history of the Tunisia campaign ["Les Forces Françaises dans la Lutte contre l'Axe en Afrique: la Campagne de Tunisie (1942-1943)"], David Lehmann over at the Axis history forums, and others) :

WW2 French Weapons 10: MAS 38 (pistolet mitrailleur modèle 1938)

n779185653_3246472_519.jpg Pistolet mitrailleur de 7,65 mm long modèle 1938

The MAS 38 submachine gun fired 7.65 mm Long-type pistol ammunition from 32-round magazines and was the primary French submachine gun of the Second World War. Contrary to the level of importance associated with that type of statement, this does not mean much at all.

Put lightly, the French high command in the run-up to the Second World War designated submachine guns as being of very low importance. Put less discreetly, the French Army of 1940 entered combat virtually submachine gun-less. The French infantry were riflemen and grenadiers, and, again thinking in First World War terms, the French high command relegated almost all small arms manufacturing to rifles at the expense of pistols and submachine guns.

If the list of French rifles used seems confusing (and I haven’t even gotten to the more obscure ones yet), the list of submachine guns used by the French is positively baffling. Even worse, every last one of these guns was used in such small numbers as to be completely unremarkable.

n779185653_3246501_3525.jpg MAS 38 front sight

The vast majority of submachine guns in French stocks in 1940 were foreign-made, a testament to how little France’s war industry focused on submachine guns. The German and Austrian submachine guns were largely captured from Spanish Republican troops fleeing to the French border following the Spanish Civil War. These included 3,250 German Erma-Vollmer EMP guns, about 1,000 German Bergmann MP28 SMGs, about 200 German Bergmann MP34 SMGs, around 50 Austrian Steyr MP34 SMGs, and an unspecified number of MP18 SMGs from the First World War. All of these weapons were critically short of ammunition upon their capture, and so most remained in storage and didn’t see action in the French war effort. For example, of the 3,250 EMP guns, only about 1,000 were issued, and then each soldier only received about one spare magazine. This, however, was not too significant an issue, as the primary units to receive the EMP were corps francs troops, essentially small teams of raiding commandos used for quick lightning strikes in and behind enemy lines. Besides the captured German weaponry, the French also had about 300 Finnish Suomi M31 SMGs (150 issued to the northern group of armies) and 3,000 Thompson 1921 and 1928 models purchased from the United States. Of the latter, the vast majority remained in storage, a few in Morocco.

n779185653_3246503_6566.jpg The MAS 38 had two rear sights that flip up depending on which you want to use.

n779185653_3246508_9852.jpg Rear sight set for a distance of 100 meters

n779185653_3246513_8682.jpg Rear sight set for a distance of 200 meters

By World War Two’s start, the French had designed four different submachine guns that would be used in the war. Two were test guns (the Petter M1939 and ETVS) of which only around 50 each were made. Another was the STA 1924 of which around 1,000 were manufactured and used in the Moroccan Rif War; the very few that remained in metropolitan France would be in the hands of certain troops defending the Maginot Line.

Now that the multitude of other submachine guns has been covered, it is now time to move onto the official arm: the MAS 38.

n779185653_3246477_4528.jpg MAS 38 with strap attached

The MAS 38 was a tiny, eccentric firearm with an awkward bent appearance, but it was also a very high quality weapon manufactured with only the highest quality materials. It was also a very accurate weapon. However, it was also known to have a slight tendency to jam. Its greatest weakness, however, was the new French 7.65 mm Long round it fired, common for it, the two prototype test SMGs mentioned previously, and the model 1935 pistols. This round was found to be grossly underpowered as a combat round compared to its contemporaries.

n779185653_3246473_3721.jpg The 7.65 mm Long cartridge

The MAS 38 submachine gun was actually first created in 1935. It was adopted in 1938 (hence its designation), but due to industry’s focus on rifles and other weaponry, mass production of the gun didn’t begin until just before the German invasion of May 1940. As a result, only around 2,000 had been delivered and irregularly issued (very irregularly, and, unfortunately, because most documents were destroyed during the time period, it’s almost impossible to know exactly to which units they were issued; nevertheless, the number 2,000 still makes it the most common submachine gun issued to the French troops) to the French Army before the armistice in June.

For an army of 6 million, that number is nothing.

I cannot emphasize that fact enough. This gun was rare.

No, you don’t get it. It’s a game to find photographs of it being used in 1940. It is the Waldo of French weaponry. At the time of this writing, I only had one in my entire collection:

n779185653_3246548_6051.jpg An Alpine group of corps francs troops. The soldier to the left has a German Erma-Vollmer EMP submachine gun, while the man kneeling has a captured German MG34 machine gun.

Did you see it? I didn’t think so. See the guy standing on the very right of the photograph? If you look closely, you’ll see the MAS 38’s small barrel in his right hand. I kid you not. It’s kind of cute peeking out like that, isn’t it?

What’s not cute is the extent to which video games have exaggerated its presence. I’m not even going to focus on this much, but to give an example, practically every other French soldier in Call of Duty 2: Big Red One uses this gun. You play through Operation Torch seeing this gun everywhere. I assume the reason for this is the same behind why the post-war MAS 36 was used: the developers of this game saw some cheap book list (as most books do) the MAS 38 as the primary French submachine gun of the war (which it technically was), assume it was common as dirt like submachine guns were in the other armies, and went out to make another silly video of themselves firing guns at a range (Call of Duty developers, in particular Treyarch, love showing off that way) to pretend they were doing actual research like they advertise.

This is all the more felonious because of the fact that submachine guns of any sort were extremely rare in the French North African Army at the time of its re-entry in the war in 1942. The French high command didn’t even bother to keep track of them, and as a result it is impossible to know how many submachine guns were actually in service. Of the small number in existence in North Africa, it can be assumed that a mix of the very few 1921 and 1928 Thompson guns that had been stored in Morocco, the very few left-over STA 1924 guns from the 1920’s, and whatever small number of MAS 38 submachine guns had been sent from metropolitan France were issued to and used by the troops during the Tunisia campaign. All of these guns would quickly be supplanted in number as the Americans gave the French more Thompson guns and the British sent the French Army in early 1943 Sten submachine guns.

n779185653_3246516_2271.jpg MAS 38 magazine pouches

The MAS 38, however, was not finished. After the fall of France, production of the weapon continued until it fully equipped the metropolitan French Army of the armistice. Thus, beginning in 1941, this weapon became common for the Vichy mainland army. Unfortunately, save for the 1er Régiment de France, the entire army was disbanded following the German occupation of the free zone in November 1942. Thus, ironically, this French weapon would be in the hands of mostly German occupation troops and the traitorous Milice, the anti-Resistance, above-the-law militia founded by Joseph Darnand of the Vichy government in 1943. During the liberation of France, the MAS 38, like most French weapons, was thus on both sides of the conflict, Resistance and French Army forces (plus the 1er Régiment de France, fully equipped with the most modern French weaponry and uniforms, which had re-entered the war on the side of the Resistance in August 1944) taking them from the hands of German occupation troops, the Milice, and Vichy stockpiles.




GirlsHateMe

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#9 10 years ago

It's a lovely French weapon and I'd like to see it back in action. I remember using this weapon way back in Call of Duty 2: Big Red One.




Kev4000

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#10 10 years ago

big.jpg I believe that model is good enough for FH2 if its given normal maps. But we can't really expect this weapon before France is ingame, which might be a while. A good while. If you ask me the entire gun looks kinda wired, like its crooked or something.




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