Since when could a Sherman Firefly, go toe to toe with a Tiger I and live? -1 reply

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emonkies

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17th July 2003

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#1 15 years ago

I was on Market Garden and in a Tiger I . Opponent was in a Firefly. We both got onto the Stone bridge at the same time. I fired first and hit the Firefly and he started smoking. Firefly shot me and knocked me down to about 15% health.

Due to faster rate of fire apparently, the Firefly got off the second shot first and I died and was left sitting ther saying WTF?

I could understand a Churchill or KV-1 surviving a shot to the front but not a Sherman.

Sherman Firefly was a stock Sherman hull with a 17lbr, its a glorified tank destroyer. Not some armored behemoth, it only has 45mm front armor.




striderx2048

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16th May 2002

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#2 15 years ago

yep




S1l3ntSt4lk3r

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27th May 2004

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#3 15 years ago

Because the devs have great testers. :rolleyes:




Fireblade 666

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#4 15 years ago

If he had the first shot he should have won, but since you shot first you should have won.




Major Hartmann

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27th April 2003

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#5 15 years ago

Befor you state such crap, you should check your sources. Sherman frontal armour is between 38 and 75mm. And that is at a favourable angle, as opposed to german tanks. I don't know why everybody thinks that the Sherman was that crappy, but even the stock version is better than a T34 in terms of armour and gun. About that faster shot: I highly doubt that you shot first, because the difference in reloadtime between the Firefly and the Tiger is only 0.3030 seconds.




striderx2048

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#6 15 years ago

well i was in the firefly, one hit a tiger should have killed me, but it didnt. it happened extactly the way he described. my second shot was the front thread.




Major Hartmann

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27th April 2003

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#7 15 years ago

It should not necessarily. A Firefly has 115 hitpoints (Don't ask why, that's complicated). That means the Tigers gun has to cause about 120 damage to compensate for range and archive 115 damage. Higest ID that suffers 120 damage from 88L56 is 43, means 50mm of armour. This would be for total destruction. Now, you said the Firefly was only smoking. That means between 11 and 50 HP were left. Means only 65 to 104 damage. 70 damage is caused against 80mm of armour, 110 against 55mm. Those are 90° hits, mix some little angle in and you get ingame values. Looking back to the Firefly armour values, you'll see that 80mm is more armour than the Firefly had. That's because we didn't take angle into consideration befor. The above values indicate that the Tiger hit the Firefly into the turret front, or with an unlucky hit in the upper hull.

Now the other side of the encounter: 15% left after a Firefly hit: Tiger has 118HP. 10 HP are critical damage, which don't show up in the status bar. Leaves 108. 15% would be 16. Means 92 taken by Firefly gun. This translates to an armour strength of about 75mm that was hit. Probably it was 80mm what was hit, which would result in 90 damage, 17% left. 80mm is almost everywhere on the Tiger. Second hit was to the tracks, where there is only 60mm of armour, causes 130 damage. That hit alone would have been enough.




emonkies

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#8 15 years ago
Major HartmannBefor you state such crap, you should check your sources. Sherman frontal armour is between 38 and 75mm. And that is at a favourable angle, as opposed to german tanks. I don't know why everybody thinks that the Sherman was that crappy, but even the stock version is better than a T34 in terms of armour and gun. About that faster shot: I highly doubt that you shot first, because the difference in reloadtime between the Firefly and the Tiger is only 0.3030 seconds.

US M4A3/75mm was not 47mm as I stated, but 51mm at 47degrees. My apologies.

US M4A3E8 was 64mm at 47deg but no record shows them being used for Brit Firefly conversions.

US M4A3E2 "Jumbo" was 101mm at 47 deg. but was not used for Firefly conversions.

The Fireflys had the turrets removed, ammo boxes removed, and the hull radio operator/hull gunner removed. Custom 17lbr ammo boxes were put in place and IIRC the R.O.'s position held more ammo. The Brits also used stock turret with a turret bustle in hte back to hold the radio gear. It was basically a stock M4 hull modified to hold 17lbr ammo, nothing special was done to the hull otherwise.

The US converted not only 75mm M4's and M4 Hybrids not distinguished in the text, but confirmed by the only known photo published in AFV News in the 70's, (but unavailable for use in Sherman Firefly) but also 75mm M4A3's of the dry hull form and the late wet hull (often referred to as the 47 degree glacis hull).

US conversions differed in detail from British ones, the main change being the radio box, which was slightly bigger to allow for US radios.

http://freespace.virgin.net/shermanic.firefly/usnew.html

We were on a bridge, not much room for flanking shots even if he did shoot the tracks.




MrFancypants Forum Administrator

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#9 15 years ago
Major HartmannBefor you state such crap, you should check your sources.

Hey, don't forget that Anlushac is our number one tankexpert on these forums. I guess he knows all the armor values + armor penetration values of Shermans and Tigers by heart :)




Major Hartmann

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#10 15 years ago

Well, everybody makes mistakes, and 45mm frontal armour on a Sherman is one of those.