Since when could a Sherman Firefly, go toe to toe with a Tiger I and live? -1 reply

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Fireblade 666

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#11 16 years ago

And you should not forget that a Firefly could penetrate the frontal armour of a Tiger I at almost 2 kilometers.




Major Hartmann

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#12 16 years ago

Anlushac, only just now saw your post. What you didn't state is the turret armour, which you could have hit just as well.




Exel

The stubborn Finn

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#13 16 years ago
Fireblade 666And you should not forget that a Firefly could penetrate the frontal armour of a Tiger I at almost 2 kilometers.

Yes, it could, but it could not withstand a Tiger hit from any practical range, assuming the shot came at a decent angle and wasn't otherwise unlucky. But according to my experience, it is more of a rule than an exception in FH for a Sherman to take 2 frontal hits from a Tiger before blowing apart.




Major Hartmann

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#14 16 years ago

Why should a Sherman die with one hit if you accept that the Tiger doesn't die with one Firefly hit?




emonkies

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#15 16 years ago
Major HartmannAnlushac, only just now saw your post. What you didn't state is the turret armour, which you could have hit just as well.

I hit the upper front hull between the two front hull positions just to my right (Shermans left) of what would normally be the hull gunners position, almost dead center front hull, little above center.

I am not complaining that the Firefly killed the Tiger in 2 shots, I was one of the people that argued that the 76mm,17lbr, 85mm, and 90mm should have their damage revised upwards. What I have a problem with is any version of a Sherman surviving a direct hit from a 88mm AP round to the front hull at 500m or less.

The Tiger firing PzGr39 could penetrate 110mm of armor set at 30deg angle at 500m. The Shermans front hull armor was set at 47deg which being a steeper angle at would make the Shermans front armor easier to penetrate.

If I am not mistaken you have stated before that FH uses the second best round or the worst AP round and figures damage at 500m. Second best for the 88mm L/56 still figures to be the Pz.Gr.39 round

How long is the stone bridge on the right side of Market Garden? We were both about a 1/4 of the way onto the bridge. The stone bridge is not very wide so flanking shots should have been unlikely or be very high angle at best.




emonkies

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#16 16 years ago
Major HartmannWhy should a Sherman die with one hit if you accept that the Tiger doesn't die with one Firefly hit?

Because FH is a realism based mod and whether you accept it or not history tells us German 88's, Panther's 75, and Pak 40 were Sherman and T-34 slayers of much reknown.

Because a Tiger I's 88 should be utterly lethal to a Sherman.

Because 3rd Armor Division alone between June 6th 1944 and end of war IIRC had over 1500 Shermans knocked out and over 600 of those were destroyed. The Sherman was world reknown as the Ronson (after the cigarette lighter who's motto was something like "lights on the first strike every time"), Tommy cooker, Coffin for five brothers (Grant was coffin for seven brothers).

It was a good tank in 1942 but was totally outclassed by mid 1943.

@Fireblade666:

A Tiger can penetrate a Sherman at over 2.5Km, so which one should die first? The one that gets off the first shot? that doesnt seem to be the case anymore.




Major Hartmann

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#17 16 years ago

You got your angles confused there. The 30° are 30° from vertical, meaning the impact is 60° to the armour. You round hit's at an angle of 43°. Game calcualtes your damage down by using sin, means you have an effective strength of 0.682 times the original damage. The Firefly on the other hand strikes at nearly 90°, giving him about 99% of the original damage. I guess the length of the bridge as about 300m, both of you were roughly 50m onto it, leaves a combat distance of 200m, which causes a strength loss of about 11% on the Firefly, and 10% on the Tiger. In the end, the Firefly strikes with about 88% of his power, while the Tiger strikes with 61%.

FHs damagesystem uses the weakest AT round, and we start counting at 10 damage with the first penetration, dig up some thread where I explained in detail. Both a Tiger and a Firefly would go down with one hit in reality. They don't do that in FH, for how the damagesystems works. Live with it.




emonkies

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#18 16 years ago

Major HartmannYou got your angles confused there. The 30° are 30° from vertical, meaning the impact is 60° to the armour. You round hit's at an angle of 43°. Game calcualtes your damage down by using sin, means you have an effective strength of 0.682 times the original damage. The Firefly on the other hand strikes at nearly 90°, giving him about 99% of the original damage. I guess the length of the bridge as about 300m, both of you were roughly 50m onto it, leaves a combat distance of 200m, which causes a strength loss of about 11% on the Firefly, and 10% on the Tiger. In the end, the Firefly strikes with about 88% of his power, while the Tiger strikes with 61%.

FHs damagesystem uses the weakest AT round, and we start counting at 10 damage with the first penetration, dig up some thread where I explained in detail. Both a Tiger and a Firefly would go down with one hit in reality. They don't do that in FH, for how the damagesystems works. Live with it.

"Live with it"

Thats your answer?

What a FUCKING crock of shit.

So your gonna tell us that a Sherman Firefly in WW2 had no problem surving a 88mm shot at 200m distance. History tells us otherwise.

Hartman you need to quit smoking so much crack

If your gonna stand there and tell people that a Sherman could survive a 88mm round from200m then you guys need to quit calling yourself a realism based mod.

This is the kind of performance I expect out of BG42 not FH, at least they admit they are an arcade mod.




Major Hartmann

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#19 16 years ago

Try to stay calm buddy, let's handle this professionally. The Tiger couldn't stand a Firefly hit neither, why do you accept that, while you don't accept the Firefly standing a hit?




emonkies

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#20 16 years ago
Major HartmannTry to stay calm buddy, let's handle this professionally. The Tiger couldn't stand a Firefly hit neither, why do you accept that, while you don't accept the Firefly standing a hit?

I am annoyed because you explain why the damage system works like it should. No problem there. But your damage system is flawed somewhere. A Tiger never had a problem penetrating a Sherman or T-34 except for the Jumbo or the T-34's with the applique armor.

The Tiger was a feared tank in WW2 and it does not feel that way anymore.

If I was in a Sherman Firefly and I was going against a Tiger I would be thinking of how I can get a flank shot, not thinking "If I charge him and get off the first shot I can defiantely kill him before he gets off his second shot because I know I can survive the first."

Either the settings for the 88mm gun are too weak or the Shermans front hull is too strong. That fight should have gone to whoever fired first, the Firefly should not have been able to absorb a 88mm hit and then go motoring on past the flaming Tiger wreck on its merry little way.

I have been around here long enough and you should know me well enough by now to know I dont post idle gossip or base my information on what I may have sseen on the History Channel. I pride myself on trying to be as accurate as possible and researching the data first. I would not have posted this unless I saw a problem.

I do not feel the current setup is historically accurate and whatever you think of me aside I feel in this case it as necessary for me to voice a concern here.