It doesnt work like that. Tiger should always beat a Sherman unless he manages to get behind the Tiger.
Neighbor KidMaybe the shell glanced opposed to penetrate....
Not to continue arguing with Hartmann but to reply.
It is possible, however unlikely the shell glanced off but FH does not model this.
Germans used a soft ballistic cap on their armor piercing composite ballistic cap shells (PzGr39) for the sole purpose that when the shell hit sloped armor the soft cap would distort and conform to the shape of the sloped armor. The friction of the round scraping across the armor would cause the round to want to plow into the armor and increase the chances of penetration.
The German APCBC shells were so well designed that teh Russians and US copied the design for their own shells.
Then there is this thing called T/d also referred to as normailzation. If a 75mm shell hits 75mm of vertical armor there is a 50/50 chance the shell will penetrate, all things being equal. Velocity and mass of shell can tip the scale either way to penetrate or not penetrate.
When you increase the size of the shell the probability of penetration goes up. If the shell is of high enough diamater the chance of penetration goes up exponentially, and even with sloped armor if the round is large enoughnit negates the effects of sloped armor.
Due to the excellent design of the PzGr39 ammo and the normalization effects 75mm L/48, 75mm L/70, 88mm L/56, and 88mm L/71 had very little problem with penetration, even with sloped armor. Only the late model IS-2 was considered relatively penetration proof and that was against 88mm L/56. 88mm L/71 and 128mm both penetrated.
Sherman Firefly: Armour plating on hull front: 76 mm (3 inches) Tiger 1: Armour plating on hull front: 100 mm at 80 degrees Armour plating on hull sides: 80 mm at 90 degrees Armour plating on turret front: 100 mm at 80 degrees Armour plating on turret sides: 80 mm at 64 degrees All I know, and the Panther is much too strong. Ingame it looks like it has even more armour then the tiger :S
Well, efectively the Panthers front was stronger than the Tigers.
Hartmann said it right frontaly it is effectivly stronger.
'[WOLF JChaser']Hartmann said it right frontaly it is effectivly stronger.
Everyone knows a tanks front armor is effectively stronger than the sides. I dont know of a tank made that has weaker armor on the side that normally faces the enemy than the sides whicjh are normally facing away.
The front turret manlet is 76mm, what was being argued was the front upper hull which was 45-51mm on dry storage hulls, depending on whose source. Wet stowage hulls were 64mm.
Firefly's were made from dry and wet stowage hulls, wet stowage 76mm hulls being preferred due to less customization work needed. Due to a shortage of 76mm hulls majority were 75mm dry stowage hulls.
Whether the Firefly could penetrate a Tiger was never questioned. What was being argued is why a 88mm L/56 fired from a Tiger could not penetrate a Shermas front armor when in reality it had no problems killing a Sherman frontally.
From Belton Coopers book "Deathtraps: The survival of a US armored Division in WW2"
"In comparison, the German high-velocity guns could not only penetrate the lighter armor of a Sherman with a single shot at long range, they could knock out a Sherman even after shooting through a brick wall and in at least one instance, by shooting through another Sherman tank. " - pg.308, paragraph 2.
7th December 2003
Anlushac11...and in at least one instance, by shooting through another Sherman tank.
Wow, this is impressive.
I think Shermans should blow with one shot from the front.. but, with that, the Tiger should then also be blown with one shot from the Firefly.. even at the front. Not that it matters.. if you're hit the first time you can count on it that you're dead within a few seconds anyway. To survive you need to see him before he sees you.. we're talking about the current system here.. but, I'd prefer the way I suggested.. one shot, one kill for both of them.
I whole-heartedly agree. There is almost no way in hell that a Sherman, save for a Jumbo, could survive a direct frontal hit by a Tiger's 88mm, unless God himself intervened. Likewise, the Tiger shouldn't have survived the first hit by the Firefly, either.
Within 1km i beleive, good ol' british 17 pounders :P.