small arms to aircraft -1 reply

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Pietje

People say I post too much

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14th December 2005

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#21 13 years ago
FuzzyBunnyThat's the keyword though, "massed". Fh has what, 32 players max to a side? Don't know about what BF2 allows. Would you scale this? In this case, it'd be too easy for 3 guys with PPsHs to wreck a plane. If not, it'd take a long time to damage stuff.[/QUOTE] Hmm, im not too sure about that. If a plane fly's that low then its no surpise he is going to be wrecked.
As it stands, I'd agree with Pietje, but argue that rifles/SMGs/pistols shouldn't cause terrible amounts of damage to planes.

Well, im not saying it should cause terrible amounts of damage, but atleast enough to force the pilot not to do foolish things such as flying extremely low and making ground attack alot more risky, like real life.

And the chance of them being shot down at low heights should be pretty big, like in real life. This will help to force pilots fly at non absurd heights and force them to act a WW2 pilot and not as a stunt pilot.

Wich is extremely common at the moment. Too common, if you ask me. And no, pilots arent forced to fly at 15 meters height. :) [QUOTE=Wooly_Bully]Birds like the Il2 would pretty much just take all that fire and keep flying, whilst others could be really torn up by some accurate fire.

True, the Sturmovik could take alot of damage. But like all planes it had its own weaknesses. Such as the the oil radiator, located on the underside of the fuselage. Wich was vunreable to 7,92 bullets IIRC. Atleast that was the case by the early models. Another thing to keep in mind is that only the later models where fully armoured. The early models where only armoured in the front and in the rear they where made of wood.




Fuzzy Bunny

Luke, I am your mother.

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2nd May 2005

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#22 13 years ago
PietjeHmm, im not too sure about that. If a plane fly's that low then its no surpise he is going to be wrecked.

You're right. However, consider a fighter-bomber breezing by at 200kph (that's being _very_ conservative). In between becoming aware of his presence, getting out your weapon, taking some sort of aim and squeezing off a few bursts, not to mention probably being under fire and having to aim ahead of something that moves a lot faster than infantry, you're not likely to get many hits.

Now, have 500 guys doing this at the same time, and we're talking serious money.

Well, im not saying it should cause terrible amounts of damage, but atleast enough to force the pilot not to do foolish things such as flying extremely low and making ground attack alot more risky, like real life.

I dunno about "a lot more risky", but it'd certainly be nice to give him something to think about. As it stands, not-so-light weapons like the .50cal are already pretty harsh against planes.




Pietje

People say I post too much

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#23 13 years ago
FuzzyBunnyYou're right. However, consider a fighter-bomber breezing by at 200kph (that's being _very_ conservative). In between becoming aware of his presence, getting out your weapon, taking some sort of aim and squeezing off a few bursts, not to mention probably being under fire and having to aim ahead of something that moves a lot faster than infantry, you're not likely to get many hits. Now, have 500 guys doing this at the same time, and we're talking serious money.

Yeah, but i think you see it wrong. Its all scaled down. In real life a single fighter bomber isnt going to last long in a fight.

I dunno about "a lot more risky", but it'd certainly be nice to give him something to think about. As it stands, not-so-light weapons like the .50cal are already pretty harsh against planes.

You must be playing a different game then me. :lol: The only thing that happens when you fire at a plane with a .50 ingame is that you basicly saying ask the pilot "He, there! Wanna drop a bomb on my head?". Try playing wake. You will know what i mean. Man a .50 cal and see how the planes fly at you like bee's at honey, hehe.

Or try firing at a plane with the AA mount on some tanks. Its the same problem. Little damage to airplane, big chance that you die within 5 minutes. Nah small arms ingame are pointless to use against a plane. Might aswell give the pilot a insta kill button. The only time when i have seen someone get a kill on a plane with a MG was when they where lucky enough to kill the pilot. And so far i have only seen it happen twice. In most cases the MG simply overheates and even then the plane doesnt even begin to smoke.




Fuzzy Bunny

Luke, I am your mother.

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2nd May 2005

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#24 13 years ago
PietjeYeah, but i think you see it wrong. Its all scaled down. In real life a single fighter bomber isnt going to last long in a fight.

You're absolutely right. However, in RL it's going to be proportionally more difficult to get 500 guys shooting at the same target and actually (a) hitting, and (b) hitting something effectively and repeatedly, compared to how hard it is to have a flight of fighter bombers chewing things up at the same time. That's kinda my point--by saying "1 guy in FH represents x hundred soldiers" you're making it too easy for one person to have a disproportionate effect.

You must be playing a different game then me. :lol:

No, I just aim :-)

Seriously though, I find the .50cal (and all heavy MGs) to be pretty effective, really. Even with my 200+ ping, I consistently light up planes--even if you don't kill them, you'll often drive them off.

If you can get just a couple of hit indicators, you're gold.




Pietje

People say I post too much

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#25 13 years ago
FuzzyBunnyYou're absolutely right. However, in RL it's going to be proportionally more difficult to get 500 guys shooting at the same target and actually (a) hitting, and (b) hitting something effectively and repeatedly, compared to how hard it is to have a flight of fighter bombers chewing things up at the same time. That's kinda my point--by saying "1 guy in FH represents x hundred soldiers" you're making it too easy for one person to have a disproportionate effect.

But i might aswell say that in real life bombing tanks was aswell alot more difficult then ingame. Seeing as pilots couldnt see 360 degrees and most ground attack planes had little in the way to know where their bombs would land.

No, I just aim :-) Seriously though, I find the .50cal (and all heavy MGs) to be pretty effective, really. Even with my 200+ ping, I consistently light up planes--even if you don't kill them, you'll often drive them off. If you can get just a couple of hit indicators, you're gold.

Funny, i have been trying this for ages. On crete for example it doesnt matter where i hit a JU52. It doesnt even begin to smoke. I can empty all my ammo in the damn thing but with little succes. Wich is one the reason why you rarely if ever see someone firing a on plane with a MG. Its pointless.

Wich is aswell one of the reasons why pilots fly so low. There isnt much on the ground that can effect them. SPAA is next to non existant. Unless you include the oh so lovely poorly programmed sdkfz series wich is so unbelievably buggy. And AAA is static and most pilots know where they are located. Ofcourse, maybe your good or simply lucky. In either case most people dont waste their time trying to attack planes with .50 Cals, Mg34's/MG42's/etc.

Ofcourse thats just my experience. :)




Bikewer

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17th October 2003

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#26 13 years ago

I find the effectiveness of AA fire to vary wildly from map to map. On many, especially the Pacific maps for some reason, the ground-based AA is near useless. (for some reason, the guns on ships work fine...)

On others, like Bocage and El Al, it's almost too deadly. Those Vierlings on the Axis side are real sky-sweepers. Some claim the various big guns, like the fixed 88s, are effective against aircraft, but I don't believe I've ever brought down a plane with one, even if the guy is flying straight down your throat!

Of course, I remember shooting down Zeros with my BAR in the original game...

Historically, aircraft with radiators and liquid cooling were fairly susceptible to small-arms fire. The plane wouldn't crash and die of course, but the pilot would be watching his rapidly-overheating engine with trepidation!

Ground attack should be dangerous, and pilots should have to worry about ground fire all the time. On too many maps in this game, the flyboys can buzz around with impunity, and the fly-over-the-airstrip-to-reload buisness is rather silly.

Of course, I spent a lot of time flightsimming. Lots of Stuka missions where you'd fly for half an hour to try to locate a target, then drop your bomb (one!) and go home. Hopefully...




The Ultimate Drifter

*Professional Drunk Driver*

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1st October 2004

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#27 13 years ago

I remember seeing a program on the history channel about the P-51. Since it had a single water cooled engine small arms did in fact bring some of them down. They said the Germans were "masters of using infantry to bring down aircraft." I think the comment about scale speed sums it up best. Its far too easy to get hit marks on an aircraft with a rifle. If infantry did damage to vital parts it would be far too common to bring down planes with rifles. You can't get the speed, angles, and alt right so its best to leave that out. However, I do think it would be cool to see aircraft do more damage to each other. Sawing off wings with .50 cals and zeros exploding when hit and such. Also, can a plane which is on fire be locked so that only someone with a pilot kit can bail from it? Or, better yet, only someone with a kit can get into the plane in the first place...




Admiral Donutz VIP Member

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9th December 2003

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#28 13 years ago

Don't forget about entry and exit delays to prevent people from bailing at the last second (bail to early and lose a plane for nothing, bail too late and... well. Just as in real life :) ). Entry delays would prevent lame pickup flights.




Fuzzy Bunny

Luke, I am your mother.

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#29 13 years ago
PietjeBut i might aswell say that in real life bombing tanks was aswell alot more difficult then ingame. Seeing as pilots couldnt see 360 degrees and most ground attack planes had little in the way to know where their bombs would land.

True, but in a real game, pilots could also look around, up, (usually) down, etc. Not this "static cockpit view, chase front, chase rear, flyby and that's it" business.

Funny, i have been trying this for ages. On crete for example it doesnt matter where i hit a JU52. It doesnt even begin to smoke. I can empty all my ammo in the damn thing but with little succes. Wich is one the reason why you rarely if ever see someone firing a on plane with a MG. Its pointless.

Yeah okay but then we're also talking apples and oranges. The Ju52 is a tough, large, robust target. It's essentially a moving van with 3 engines, which has been known to fly on one motor left. A huge corrugated metal winged barn like that isn't going to be easy to bring down. Something like a Zero, on the other hand, should be a bit easier.

Interestingly, anything made primarily out of wood/fabric, as a lot of early-war planes were, should be more difficult to nail with small arms fire (it'd just pass through the fuselage/wings.)

Wich is aswell one of the reasons why pilots fly so low. There isnt much on the ground that can effect them. SPAA is next to non existant. Unless you include the oh so lovely poorly programmed sdkfz series wich is so unbelievably buggy. And AAA is static and most pilots know where they are located.

This is a problem, agreed. At least for Allies. I honestly don't know how you'd deal with this on Pacific maps, as the Japanese didn't use that much SPAA.

Ofcourse, maybe your good or simply lucky. In either case most people dont waste their time trying to attack planes with .50 Cals, Mg34's/MG42's/etc.

No, once again, my main aim is usually to drive a plane off, not kill it. Today on Wake, there was _no_ chance of doing what I described, due to at least 4 planes in the air at any given time plus infantry picking off AA machine gunners. But then again, at that point your team is sort of screwed anyway...