Team tactics and strategy training -1 reply

  • 1
  • 2

Please wait...

mydjinny

I live on Gaming Forums

50 XP

2nd August 2006

0 Uploads

1,185 Posts

0 Threads

#1 10 years ago

I brought this up in a thread, but not as an idea of its own.I believe that FH2, an already excellent war game, will be 2ice as good and twice as much fun a war game if the devs could not only encourage, but teach military tactics as well incoorporate it into their game's architecture. In other words, if possible, the devs should come up with videos (Most prefered) perhaps when the Americans come out (As the basic training was the British), to teach tactical manouvers such as flanking, suppression etc... Ofcourse simple PDF will work too, justnot half as effectively as the videos...Other strategies such as Lightening warfare and combined force, mechanised warfare can be taught by the Germans - As can cose-in assault Other tactics that should be taight include:•Moving in (And doing from cover to cover, shoot-and-scoot etc)Fighting retreat (Hopping over each other)•Charging (Bayonets, smoke cover and unified numbers and when its neccesary)•Holding off a counter attack at all costs(Entrenching, fighting and displacing)•Setting up booby traps aroud a perimeter (Especially useful when your team has the furthers base, closest to the enemies main uncap base and needs to hold it from an enemy counter-attack - Included here is combined mining, how to lay both AP and AT mines in a mixed-high density field)•Moving with tanks (The positions infantry should assume around or behind tank cover, mechanised warfare etc




Uberhauptstormfuhrer

Dread pwns me!

50 XP

17th August 2006

0 Uploads

459 Posts

0 Threads

#2 10 years ago

Could be a job for the beta testers i they have the time for it. But in my opinion this is not going to work if there are not ways to communicate. And i think that VOIP is not enough (atleast in the public servers)




mydjinny

I live on Gaming Forums

50 XP

2nd August 2006

0 Uploads

1,185 Posts

0 Threads

#3 10 years ago

I think I agree... But something has to happen first. We can have these training sessions coming out and have them slowly taking effect, and perfected when the devs add their own custom voice overs - And a whole lot more voice overs.... the meer fact that 2 voice/Radio overs can exist on a single command rose option (Leftclick/Rightclick) opens a whole lot of doors, not to mention increases voice overs 2 fold at least But that's not this thread's topic... I also think the devs should add in more in the architecture that supports these tactics: They already have suppression effect - Personally, I'd hope any gun fired close to a person would cause 1/2 a sec of suppression so enough guns firing would be able suppress an enemy force....I'd also add hand signals in 3rd and 1st person to go along with the voice overs A clearer distiction between radio and voice overs. For your regular infantry man, radio sound should be non exisitent. Not even from a scout. All he should get is enemy units blinking on his minimap and his captian's VOICE-over so team tactics become more important due to the level of abstraction of the battlefield per soldeir class The Damage system as well as accuracy per gun needs to undergo serious retweaking with alot of beta testing to balance the damage system, ROF and accuracy with the speed of a dash, the distance of a target, the position of a shot etc... So that the gameplay centers more and more around team tactics and lone wolfs will find it less wise(For lack of information) to go out by themlseves... Heck, single squads should be happy to move in tandem with at least one another and tanks and armored vehicles should also consider the help of infantry as useful to them as they are to infantry.... Considering the last point, I'd say its absolutely crucial that the devs consider multi-speeds on vehicles. The dash should be able to act as a one-click toggle to change vehicles moving at top speed to them moving at infantry trot speed. So a force may consist of so many vehicles as well as infantry and they would all move together... I can imagine people actually hating the fool, who suddenly switches to hugh speed and leaves the group... After all, planes have 2 speeds and it works wonders for interception work, why not vehicles....maybe more tweak on the mgs so that planes can find strafing as useful as randomly blasting targets with their cannons - And so enter, close air support I still haven't figured out an architecture that allows infantry, armor etc to work in tandem with long range artillery, but all I can say is, an arty strike should leave the enemy at ground 0 (Survivors) completely shell shocked for a good while longer than simple suppression...




Deadmonkiefart

GF makes me horny

50 XP

23rd April 2008

0 Uploads

85 Posts

0 Threads

#4 10 years ago

Artillery works pretty damn well if you have just 1 good spotter.




mydjinny

I live on Gaming Forums

50 XP

2nd August 2006

0 Uploads

1,185 Posts

0 Threads

#5 10 years ago

But doesn't contribute nor contradict my initial argument, DeadMonkiefart... I was refering to suppression from artillery not the artillery gun itself That said, I must say I prefered the pan camera from BF42 so that arty crew could adjust their fire based on moving targets rather than see a vertical top view where fast targets could have moved well out of range by the time they get firing... It also simulated the idea of 'Shift-firing' which cannot be done well with top view - And for those who believe arty will be too accurate - Think of how long arty in Fh2 takes to reload and how no one exactly knows how elevation translates into distance. You might get an idea of how innaccurate that leaves the ' shift-firing gunner




Flippy Warbear

One of Kelly's Heroes

50 XP

2nd January 2004

0 Uploads

2,600 Posts

0 Threads

#6 10 years ago

Heh, being an artillery master (*cough* whore *cough*) I can say that moving targets arent such a big problem now that HE-shells damage them aswell. Besides, it doesnt always have to destroy the enemy vehicle.

Case; a tank is sitting on a ridge, spamming shells to infantry positions and destroying all tanks who try to encounter it. Now, give a spot and an artillery gunner can either try his luck and score One-shot-One-kill with AP (I've done it billion times) with first try but the best bet is to fire away HE-shells close to him. Even if the tanker wont die, he will be distracted, damaged and he needs to move away. Also, firing smoke shells to him will blind him aswell, making him vulnerable for flanking measures. Artillery is an excellent piece of war machinary and it works well even if it doesnt exactly remove the problem, it can soften it enough to achieve victory over hard obstacles.

To brag; I can hit targets that have already moved away from my view by listening to where it is going and quickly changing the angle of the gun as the vehicle engine sounds go further away. I have succesfully fired "blind" by listening where the enemy tank is going, destroying the tank and two other crewmembers (alongside with the driver of course) with it. I can switch targets and hit them spot-on in couple of seconds after receiving spot. And I sometimes wont even bother _killing_ some targets, when you can have almost same effect by just lopping smoke all over them.

The difference between HE and Smoke rounds is that smoke can be used to both defensive and offensive measures while HE is mainly good for offensive, BUT it can be used as a defensive bufferzone when used correctly. To spare HE- shells, use Smoke to soft (yet deadly) targets, such as marders, unless they are causing serious trouble. Problem with tank-killers such as the marder is that it cannot turn its turret and it requires a gunner. So when blinded, the marder must move, this means it must turn its side and drive out of its hidey-hole and expose himself to enemy fire. This makes it very easy prey.

Attacking a well positioned defenses can be tricky, send HE-shells in first before your teammates get there. This will kill the infantry and destroy defending vehicles, static weapons and even tanks. Now the enemy has been kicked in the balls, its time to poke into his eyes, fire blinding smoke all over the flag area and to the direction where your teammates are attacking from. This will confuse them, making them run blind and grippled without proper idea of what is left to defend with and how many enemies are actually coming. Nothing beats tommygun-infantry charging to smoke-filled trenches to clean them out of jerry scum!




[79th]Sgt-D

Netdahe

50 XP

6th May 2006

0 Uploads

1,951 Posts

0 Threads

#7 10 years ago

I would like to agree with your point mydjinny, but you have to consider the BF2 scale, rythm and context. FH2 made it really more realistic, but still :

*scale : even if much wider than every other FPS, it's still tight *rythm : very fast *context : it's still a game, and a high percentage of players don't bother about collective objectives, and just wanna shoot at everything's moving.

So let's figure a simple situation : an infantry squad has to storm a trench.

Assuming that you can count on a good gunner and have a LMG in your squad, you'll spot the enemy position, asking for a barrage (3 HE shells, then two smoke shells, then another 2 HE), while your LMG gunner put his weapon in order to provide covering fire from a 45° angle, the rest of the squad moving to flank the position.

That's what happened in RL, and I would like to be able to do this ingame.

But, due the scale, rythm and context issues, there are so many chances that your LMG gunner will get shot whitin seconds by random frag hunters who didn't even have a clue about your well prepared assault, then your remaining squadmembers will also get shot from nowhere.

I mean, even well trained clanmates couln't get 30 seconds to set up such a basic tactic in the FH2 context where bullets are flying on every square centimeter.

So WWII tactics couldn't work ; you just can inspire from it according to the context : for example at the moment you have two tanks and three available riflemen, so yeah, the infantrymen have to stay behind and cover the tanks from enemy infantry, but you cannot try to gather five tanks and fill two halftracks with mounted panzergrenadiers then follow a correct blitz scenario, it would take too much time and cooperation from too much players.

I wish, but I'm afraid it couldn't work in a public game.




mydjinny

I live on Gaming Forums

50 XP

2nd August 2006

0 Uploads

1,185 Posts

0 Threads

#8 10 years ago

Okay, so pan on the arty barrage. At least an angled view, high above the the earth from about 60degrees up. E.g. Imaging spotting a tank at the mid-first line bunker in Tobruk. You get a 60degree high angled point of view about 100-200 feet above the head of the spotters last spot position in the direction of the spotted enemy unit. That way you get a static camera that wont cause lag, you get a view wide enough to catch a moving target - AND, you don't get any more freabies than one the spotter could provide himself. The spotter gets shot, the view is immideiately lost. A time out, the view is lost I've tried to manually reorganise my post to make it more read-ableI believe that FH2, an already excellent war game, will be 2ice as good and twice as much fun a war game if the devs could not only encourage, but teach military tactics as well incoorporate it into their game's architecture.In other words, if possible, the devs should come up with videos (Most prefered) perhaps when the Americans come out (As the basic training was the British), to teach tactical manouvers such as flanking, suppression etc... Ofcourse simple PDF will work too, justnot half as effectively as the videos...Other strategies such as Lightening warfare and combined force, mechanised warfare can be taught by the Germans - As can cose-in assaultOther tactics that should be taight include:1)Moving in (And doing from cover to cover, shoot-and-scoot etc)2)Fighting retreat (Hopping over each other)3)Charging (Bayonets, smoke cover and unified numbers and when its neccesary)4)Holding off a counter attack at all costs(Entrenching, fighting and displacing)5)Setting up booby traps aroud a perimeter (Especially useful when your team has the furthers base, closest to the enemies main uncap base and needs to hold it from an enemy counter-attack - Included here is combined mining, how to lay both AP and AT mines in a mixed-high density field)6)Moving with tanks (The positions infantry should assume around or behind tank cover, mechanised warfare etc




mydjinny

I live on Gaming Forums

50 XP

2nd August 2006

0 Uploads

1,185 Posts

0 Threads

#9 10 years ago

There is a reason why tactics worked in WW2 versus everyone running and firing. You'll be amazed to find that a random fragger may get 2 or even 3 crew members, but a squad leader spawn balances the odds alot and a well organsed squad brings alot of fire power to bear... With enough people playing tactically, lone wolfs will find their lone-wolfing depression and unfruitful, not to mention, tactics makes teams less of targets by allowing them to move from cover to coverAfter all, there IS a suppression effect that disorients even the most gunho of people, enough for squad mates to move behind the line of fire and out of danger of return-fire. If the training is in place, people CAN know what to do and MAY apply it. If the architecture exists, people will benefit from it if they decided to use it - But if they don't, no one loses for its exisitence. And I'm sure there are alot of WW2 fans who would like to play more as a squad than currently do. Another useful tactic I thought of is having a differen spawn time for squad leader spawn. I think squad leader spawn time should be alot less than flag spawn. Reason being, a real squad contains alot more people - A shorter spawn time allows a larger team to exist while a team still has hope. Increase spawn time increases the chances of the captain getting shot and killed too quickly for this to be realized - And shorter spawn time on squads equalizes with your random fragger by further nullifying the effect of his kills. He gets 3 shots off, kills maybe 2, someome quickly respawns and takes the bastard out. Everyone continues to play tactically, The guy gets off the server and posts insulting thread entries, everone's happy. I did mention, rebalancing through game testing of tactical gameplay, didn't I.... This means such things as reload time, damage and spawn time will be rebalanced to cater best to team tactics...Bottom line, no loss if team tactics exists Sgt-D




[79th]Sgt-D

Netdahe

50 XP

6th May 2006

0 Uploads

1,951 Posts

0 Threads

#10 10 years ago

As a WWII fan I agree with you, and as A FH clanmember again I agree with you. Teamwork, especially from a trained squad (I remember on FH1 we spend special training about infantry movements - a leader, a covering mate - with one of us IRL a french army NCO in the commandos), would take off most of lonewolves threats, but as it's still a game, I don't think it would be possible to strictly transpose WWII actual tactics in FH2. Sometimes we can set up tactics inspired by WWII ones, some other moments we have to use tactics specific to a videogame, which wouldn't be approved IRL by military trainers. But again, I would like to see more historically accurate tactics, I'm really interested in WWII small units tactics (for example I read somewhere than german groups and sections used to fire one MG with tracers intentionally too high, so enemy soldiers thought they could safely run under the hail of bullets - then, of course, the second MG - without tracers - could easily get rid of them. If this is wrong, Von Mudra will soon correct it ; if true, imagine such a tactic ingame :naughty: )




  • 1
  • 2