Time for another one of my complaint threads -1 reply

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emonkies

I'm too cool to Post

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17th July 2003

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#1 13 years ago

Wel come to the 15th meeting of my Bimonthly complaint thread. I will start by putting on flame proof suit and boxing gloves because I just know Major Hartmann will be in shortly. :)

My complaint is that last night I was playing on Deadmeat server and while playing Sector 318 I noticed something odd. I was west of the bottom flag on the little hill the village sits on and engaged a M4A3(75mm) that was in the field just my side of the farm house. I was in a healthy Jagdpanther.

The enemy was at about my 11:00 when the first round hit and did damage. I then turned so my strongest armor would face him. The Sherman was stationary and so was I.

My first shot hit the Sherman in the front armor and I saw the smoke and the hit indicator register but the Sherman didnt even break into flame. The Sherman fired again and did more damage. I could not see well due to smoke and my shot went just over the Sherman and missed. The Sherman fired a third time and killed me. I thought it might have been a Sherman Jumbo with a 76mm gun but the score tag said it was a normal Sherman.

First off, I applaud the enemy gunner on his superior gunnery skills.

Second...why is a Sherman 75mm gun even able to damage the Panther's or Jagdpanther's front armor?

The side and rear armor seem fine but the front armor on both feel weak. The main reason the US Army adopted the 90mm gun for the M36 Jackson was because the M10's 76mm gun was not capable of penetrating the front armor of a Tiger I ausf E or the Panther. In Belton Coopers book "Deathtraps" in the center of the book by page 200, picture number 6 is a photograph of a Panther shot in the front hull at very close range at Le Dezert France in June 1944. All that happened was two gouges in the front armor but no penetrations.

Yet in game the 75mm gun which is weaker than the 76mm gun in the Sherman Jumbo or M10 can kill with 3 shots to the front. The Panther seemed to die in a similar number of shots.

Oddly enough it took more hits than that to kill me when a M10 or Jumbo were shooting at me. In one instance R4DG was shooting at me from very long range with the M10 and it took several shots to kill me.

It seems that either the US 75mm gun is overpowered, there is a bug versions material map assignments, or the Panthers armor is too weak.

My request or reccomendation is to up the armor on the front of the Panther. Only the front, the sides and rear feel about right. The gun is good, mobility seems right, and all else seems correct.

As far as the 88mm L/71 not killing the Sherman with one hit but I will write it off as a glitch, although this is not the first time I have hit a regular Sherman in the front armor and it didnt seem to do much.

Is their a possible bug in the hit detection on the front armor of the Sherman?

My other complaint is what did you guys do to the Sherman (105mm)? I was on Bulge the other night on our Clan server and was suprised when within several minutes my cherry Tiger II ausf B was destroyed in one shot from a Sherman 105mm. I was in shock and then screaming WTF? in clan TS much to the delight of my fellow clanners (Sorry guys) but assumed it was a fluke shot and moved on. I respawned in base and grabbed a newly spawned Tiger I ausf E and proceeded to get back into combat. I was once again killed in one shot by a Sherman 105mm. Several minutes later I was in IIRC a PzIV entering South St. Vith and suddenly a Sherman 105mm popped out from behind a house and hit my vehicle in the front armor and it exploded from one shot to the front armor.

My complaint is the Sherman 105mm was designed to replace the aging M7 Priest chassis and give infantry level fire support. The 105mm used a HEAT round which was capable of penetrating 75mm of armor. As it stands now the Sherman 105mm seems like a more capable TD than the M10.

In all honesty I have had very few complaints with .66.




Beast of War

Born to kill

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28th May 2003

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#2 13 years ago

As usual Anlushac, wasn't it a top armour hit on your Tiger ? You only have to be just a tidy bit not level and your top armour is exposed.

I have experience too my beautifull Tiger being wasted in one shot of something, that could only have been in front of me and it wasn't an aircraft, artillery or naval gun.....i was rolling down a bridge, so it must have been a top armour hit. A waste of such an otherwse thick armoured tank.

Have you tested reproducing the situation it in an empty ( your own computer ) local server ?




emonkies

I'm too cool to Post

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17th July 2003

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#3 13 years ago

With the King Tiger I had just come off the south bridge into St.Vith and Im pretty sure the Sherman 105mm was behind the wall on the left and shot me in the left side as I was engaging a Sherman Jumbo about 20m in front of me.

With the Tiger I was sitting on the same bridge at the top arc and the Jumbo was behind the wall on the other side of the wrecked house.

With the PzIV I had just entered St. Vith from the south coming from the Allied base which we had captured. I was on level ground and was close to the first houses. The Sherman 105mm pulled out from behind a row of houses and was at a 45 deg angle to me. He fired first and I exploded. We were at short to medium range and on level ground.




silian

40 years of the Ford Escort!

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10th October 2004

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#4 13 years ago

I feel sorry for you.

However you mentioned that the M4(105) replaced the M7 Priest, this is not the case. The M4(105) replaced the M8 HMC in tank units, the Priest's service life exceeded the end of the second world war, and Priest's went on to serve in the Korean War in it's M7B2 form.




NoCoolOnesLeft

My Blood Is Olive Drab

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19th November 2003

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#5 13 years ago

I really feel as though this penetration and armour value stuff needs to be adressed. It's as though the 'penetrate or deflect' rule doesnt really apply to Forgotten Hope, instead it's more of a game of 'hit the other tank untill it's health goes to zero and blows up' and for a realism and historical accuracy mod this isnt a good thing. It feels as though we're going back to normal BF1942 in some instances.

I know it sounds harsh, and I dont mean to offend at all. If XWII can apply this 'penetrate or deflect' rule then why cant Forgotten Hope? I've played XWII quite a bit and to kill a tank it has to be a penetrating hit, just one, not two or three untill it's health runs out. Take the front of the Tiger's armour for example. In Forgotten Hope you can hit it in the front about twenty times untill it's health runs out, where in XWWII you can hit it as many times as you want but you cannot penetrate the Tiger's front armour with anything less than a 76mm, and that's at a good distance.




Major Hartmann

Major Disinformation

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27th April 2003

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#6 13 years ago

Anlushac11Wel come to the 15th meeting of my Bimonthly complaint thread. I will start by putting on flame proof suit and boxing gloves because I just know Major Hartmann will be in shortly. :)

My complaint is that last night I was playing on Deadmeat server and while playing Sector 318 I noticed something odd. I was west of the bottom flag on the little hill the village sits on and engaged a M4A3(75mm) that was in the field just my side of the farm house. I was in a healthy Jagdpanther.

The enemy was at about my 11:00 when the first round hit and did damage. I then turned so my strongest armor would face him. The Sherman was stationary and so was I.

My first shot hit the Sherman in the front armor and I saw the smoke and the hit indicator register but the Sherman didnt even break into flame. The Sherman fired again and did more damage. I could not see well due to smoke and my shot went just over the Sherman and missed. The Sherman fired a third time and killed me. I thought it might have been a Sherman Jumbo with a 76mm gun but the score tag said it was a normal Sherman.

First off, I applaud the enemy gunner on his superior gunnery skills.

Second...why is a Sherman 75mm gun even able to damage the Panther's or Jagdpanther's front armor?

The side and rear armor seem fine but the front armor on both feel weak. The main reason the US Army adopted the 90mm gun for the M36 Jackson was because the M10's 76mm gun was not capable of penetrating the front armor of a Tiger I ausf E or the Panther. In Belton Coopers book "Deathtraps" in the center of the book by page 200, picture number 6 is a photograph of a Panther shot in the front hull at very close range at Le Dezert France in June 1944. All that happened was two gouges in the front armor but no penetrations.

Yet in game the 75mm gun which is weaker than the 76mm gun in the Sherman Jumbo or M10 can kill with 3 shots to the front. The Panther seemed to die in a similar number of shots.

Oddly enough it took more hits than that to kill me when a M10 or Jumbo were shooting at me. In one instance R4DG was shooting at me from very long range with the M10 and it took several shots to kill me.

It seems that either the US 75mm gun is overpowered, there is a bug versions material map assignments, or the Panthers armor is too weak.

My request or reccomendation is to up the armor on the front of the Panther. Only the front, the sides and rear feel about right. The gun is good, mobility seems right, and all else seems correct.

As far as the 88mm L/71 not killing the Sherman with one hit but I will write it off as a glitch, although this is not the first time I have hit a regular Sherman in the front armor and it didnt seem to do much.

Is their a possible bug in the hit detection on the front armor of the Sherman?

My other complaint is what did you guys do to the Sherman (105mm)? I was on Bulge the other night on our Clan server and was suprised when within several minutes my cherry Tiger II ausf B was destroyed in one shot from a Sherman 105mm. I was in shock and then screaming WTF? in clan TS much to the delight of my fellow clanners (Sorry guys) but assumed it was a fluke shot and moved on. I respawned in base and grabbed a newly spawned Tiger I ausf E and proceeded to get back into combat. I was once again killed in one shot by a Sherman 105mm. Several minutes later I was in IIRC a PzIV entering South St. Vith and suddenly a Sherman 105mm popped out from behind a house and hit my vehicle in the front armor and it exploded from one shot to the front armor.

My complaint is the Sherman 105mm was designed to replace the aging M7 Priest chassis and give infantry level fire support. The 105mm used a HEAT round which was capable of penetrating 75mm of armor. As it stands now the Sherman 105mm seems like a more capable TD than the M10.

In all honesty I have had very few complaints with .66.

The Sherman gun data was faulty, don't ask me why. It was dialed to 90mm of penetration, I just reverted that to be 70mm. The 76mm is stronger, though, the range on the occasion you described must have made the difference. About the Sherman 105mm: I just checked both the gun data and the penetration values, and the tank is set to 105mm artillery (short), which is set to 70mm of penetration. It follows the normal tank gun rules, but below 50mm of armour the damage caused by this shell increases dramatically, to take care of the fact that a big HE shell coming INTO your tank will send your pieces flying all over the place. Less then 50mm of armour (necessary for instakill) on the KT is only to be found on top, means you were unlucky. (Another possibility is that you took two shots in nearly the same instant) Due to the low muzzlevelocity it's pretty likely to get a top hit, so you probably only just had an unlucky night. Ah, the PIVh: He hit you in the side, 30mm there, -> less then 50mm, big time damage.




Ohioan

Not Wise Shitashi - Cheston

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6th October 2003

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#7 13 years ago

Anlushac11Wel come to the 15th meeting of my Bimonthly complaint thread. I will start by putting on flame proof suit and boxing gloves because I just know Major Hartmann will be in shortly. :)

My complaint is that last night I was playing on Deadmeat server and while playing Sector 318 I noticed something odd. I was west of the bottom flag on the little hill the village sits on and engaged a M4A3(75mm) that was in the field just my side of the farm house. I was in a healthy Jagdpanther.

The enemy was at about my 11:00 when the first round hit and did damage. I then turned so my strongest armor would face him. The Sherman was stationary and so was I.

My first shot hit the Sherman in the front armor and I saw the smoke and the hit indicator register but the Sherman didnt even break into flame. The Sherman fired again and did more damage. I could not see well due to smoke and my shot went just over the Sherman and missed. The Sherman fired a third time and killed me. I thought it might have been a Sherman Jumbo with a 76mm gun but the score tag said it was a normal Sherman.

First off, I applaud the enemy gunner on his superior gunnery skills.

Second...why is a Sherman 75mm gun even able to damage the Panther's or Jagdpanther's front armor?

The side and rear armor seem fine but the front armor on both feel weak. The main reason the US Army adopted the 90mm gun for the M36 Jackson was because the M10's 76mm gun was not capable of penetrating the front armor of a Tiger I ausf E or the Panther. In Belton Coopers book "Deathtraps" in the center of the book by page 200, picture number 6 is a photograph of a Panther shot in the front hull at very close range at Le Dezert France in June 1944. All that happened was two gouges in the front armor but no penetrations.

Yet in game the 75mm gun which is weaker than the 76mm gun in the Sherman Jumbo or M10 can kill with 3 shots to the front. The Panther seemed to die in a similar number of shots.

Oddly enough it took more hits than that to kill me when a M10 or Jumbo were shooting at me. In one instance R4DG was shooting at me from very long range with the M10 and it took several shots to kill me.

It seems that either the US 75mm gun is overpowered, there is a bug versions material map assignments, or the Panthers armor is too weak.

My request or reccomendation is to up the armor on the front of the Panther. Only the front, the sides and rear feel about right. The gun is good, mobility seems right, and all else seems correct.

As far as the 88mm L/71 not killing the Sherman with one hit but I will write it off as a glitch, although this is not the first time I have hit a regular Sherman in the front armor and it didnt seem to do much.

Is their a possible bug in the hit detection on the front armor of the Sherman?

My other complaint is what did you guys do to the Sherman (105mm)? I was on Bulge the other night on our Clan server and was suprised when within several minutes my cherry Tiger II ausf B was destroyed in one shot from a Sherman 105mm. I was in shock and then screaming WTF? in clan TS much to the delight of my fellow clanners (Sorry guys) but assumed it was a fluke shot and moved on. I respawned in base and grabbed a newly spawned Tiger I ausf E and proceeded to get back into combat. I was once again killed in one shot by a Sherman 105mm. Several minutes later I was in IIRC a PzIV entering South St. Vith and suddenly a Sherman 105mm popped out from behind a house and hit my vehicle in the front armor and it exploded from one shot to the front armor.

My complaint is the Sherman 105mm was designed to replace the aging M7 Priest chassis and give infantry level fire support. The 105mm used a HEAT round which was capable of penetrating 75mm of armor. As it stands now the Sherman 105mm seems like a more capable TD than the M10.

In all honesty I have had very few complaints with .66.

I agree that the Jagd armor is weaker then it should be.

As for the Sherman105, it only takes one hit to the top armor to kill a Tiger1 OR a Tiger II. If he was above you and fired down, using the arc, and hit your top armor at a decent angle, that would waste you. I've done it and had it done to me as well. If you hit the front armor dead on with a 105, you won't do much damage at all.

With the Panzer IV, it may have been a fluke, or you may have been satcheled at the same moment as the shot. I know Stug3Gs don't die from a frontal 105mm shot.




MR.X`

I'm too cool to Post

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30th April 2004

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#8 13 years ago

It has seemed for ages that German armour is vastly underpowered. Either the FH devs are incompetant, or are turning to Battlegroup.

Aren't I just the optomist?

Great post though. I just started back earlier today, and I have found much of what you said to be very true.




Ohioan

Not Wise Shitashi - Cheston

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6th October 2003

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#9 13 years ago

Nah, the German armor is about right. There are some bugs and issues, like this one, but for the most part its pretty accurate.

And I KNOW its possible to make Schurzen (armored skirts) nullify HEAT rounds. You just code the armor or material to be invulnerable to the Bazooka/Shreack/Faust/P4D rounds.




Major Hartmann

Major Disinformation

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27th April 2003

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#10 13 years ago

'[11PzG USMA2010']It has seemed for ages that German armour is vastly underpowered. Either the FH devs are incompetant, or are turning to Battlegroup.

Aren't I just the optomist?

Great post though. I just started back earlier today, and I have found much of what you said to be very true.

Hey, did you read what I wrote?




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