20mm/30mm HE Ariplane Ammo? -1 reply

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The Jackalx2k

FHmod Developer

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27th April 2003

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#71 14 years ago

Beast of WarSo a .50 ( 12.7 mm right ? ) equipped allied fighter could down an enemy aicraft in 2 seconds but a German fighter equiped with 13 mm or 15 mm machineguns like later versions of the BF109 and FW190 could not ?

Explain :)

If I am not mistaken no 109 or 190 carried 15mm cannons except the F2 version of the 109F. But it only had one mounted on the prop hub.

The 109s only had two 13mm MGs mounted on the nose meaning that six 50 cals will do more damage than just two 13mm MGs.

[edit] Damn, beaten. :p




Lateralus

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6th October 2003

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#72 14 years ago
The Jackalx2kIf I am not mistaken no 109 or 190 carried 15mm cannons except the F2 version of the 109F. But it only had one mounted on the prop hub.

This is correct too; I forgot to mention it.




mondogenerator

Wolfgaming.net *****istrator

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24th September 2003

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#73 14 years ago

Beast of WarSo a .50 ( 12.7 mm right ? ) equipped allied fighter could down an enemy aicraft in 2 seconds but a German fighter equiped with 13 mm or 15 mm machineguns like later versions of the BF109 and FW190 could not ?

Explain :)

They had Mg151's and Mk108's etc;). Large calibre cannons for one pass 'bounces'. Late was FW190's had probably the most vicious forward firepower going....upto 4 20mm's and 2 30mm's. The BF109's fighting late in the war all had Mk108's or 151's minimum, some had gun pods too, they needed to take B17's out, 12.7mm's were not up to the task themselves. German weapon philosophy was like VVS's, stick a huge cannon on the plane through the hub or on the fuselage. Wondered why the VVS liked the P39 and P63 so much?;).

They would use the 12.7's for lining up. Late war German planes were really gearing towards downing bombers and were equiped as such.




emonkies

I'm too cool to Post

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17th July 2003

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#74 14 years ago

Another thing is Western Allied fighters had a reputation for taking lots of damage before going down. Allied fighters with multiples of .50cal MG's were capable of knocking down Axis fighters very capably but the Axis fighters would have been hard pressed to bring down Allied fighters even if they had been armed with multiple MG's. Allied fighters were just more durable.

There is a reason a Bf-109G weighs roughly 6,000lbs and a P-51D weighs close to 8500lbs.

And a P-47 IIRC was close to 14,000lbs. Thats alot of metal

A FW-190A by comparison was over 9000lbs.

Grummans aircraft, the Thunderbolt, and Typhoon in paticular were considered to be built like tanks. Its no accident that Grumman was nicknamed "The Ironworks".

The FW-190's and late war Jap Ki-84's, Ki-100'S, and N1K2 Shidens were also considered very rugged and capable aircraft.




Beast of War

Born to kill

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28th May 2003

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#75 14 years ago

Anlushac, did you also read/hear BF109 were very small fighter aircraft, wich resulted in they were very hard to spot at a distance........

US fighters were usually very bulky.......now multiple .50 mg and armour or not, the fighter aircaft that is seeing the other one first and moving into position ( works the same way in FH, ask 42 ;) ) almost always wins.....

And that is clearly in favour of the small and hard to detect BF109. A considerable downside was the confined space a German pilot found himself in......there was litterally no room to move a muscle inside a BF109.

The 13 and 15 mm were no cannons but still machineguns. And i did read the german 13 mm machinegun fired a lighter and less powerfull round then the .50.....but that doens't mean it is a weak anti aircraft machinegun, and certainly more powerfull then the 7,92 mm machineguns !!

Do not forget what ammo was used in machineguns in fighters......it wasn't one type but a mix of incendary, armour piercing and tracer rounds. I don't think even "armoured" P47 can take armour piecing 7.92 mm, 13 mm or 15 mm bullets well......they piece armour and do damage in the fighter or bomber itself.......the pilot and crew is in there and can be shot dead by it you know, and the engines can be wrecked, control cables/hydraulic lines severed, the fuel tanks ignited and the onboard weapons ammo too. And the control surfaces weren't armoured at all wich can be wrecked with even normal machineguns.

I personally believe the air supriority had nothing to do with superior American aircraft, but the simple fact if a German fighter would chase an American fighter, several other American fighters would jump on his tail........there were simply many more American fighters then German fighters, and you can only attack one at a time.......for the German pilots it was fighting against rediculous odds, and they were not after the fighters but after the bombers wich made it only harder on them.....

When some of you state there were no BF109 or FW190 with 15 mm or 13 mm machinguns, that maybe true for studybooks that only cover mass production models by their factory design, but especially late in the war almost no fighter fought as factory equipped......at least not the factory they originally were build in. Like all longer time surviving german units aircraft too were regularly called back for upgrades into newer existing versions or often also non existent versions. This was caused by not having the time to test new experimental weapons, and plain shortage of the original weapons and parts. There were even BF109's and FW 190 that never were built in a factory........these were assembled from parts of crashed BF109's and FW190's. Your books don't cover them......

Really not so strange, reconstructing whole fighters out of wrecks happend with Spitfires and Hurricanes during the Battle of Brittain aswell.




Lateralus

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#76 14 years ago

Beast of WarAnlushac, did you also read/hear BF109 were very small fighter aircraft, wich resulted in they were very hard to spot at a distance........

US fighters were usually very bulky.......now multiple .50 mg and armour or not, the fighter aircaft that is seeing the other one first and moving into position ( works the same way in FH, ask 42 ;) ) almost always wins.....

And that is clearly in favour of the small and hard to detect BF109. A considerable downside was the confined space a German pilot found himself in......there was litterally no room to move a muscle inside a BF109.

The 13 and 15 mm were no cannons but still machineguns. And i did read the german 13 mm machinegun fired a lighter and less powerfull round then the .50.....but that doens't mean it is a weak anti aircraft machinegun, and certainly more powerfull then the 7,92 mm machineguns !!

Do not forget what ammo was used in machineguns in fighters......it wasn't one type but a mix of incendary, armour piercing and tracer rounds. I don't think even "armoured" P47 can take armour piecing 7.92 mm, 13 mm or 15 mm bullets well......they piece armour and do damage in the fighter or bomber itself.......the pilot and crew is in there and can be shot dead by it you know, and the engines can be wrecked, control cables/hydraulic lines severed, the fuel tanks ignited and the onboard weapons ammo too. And the control surfaces weren't armoured at all wich can be wrecked with even normal machineguns.

I personally believe the air supriority had nothing to do with superior American aircraft, but the simple fact if a German fighter would chase an American fighter, several other American fighters would jump on his tail........there were simply many more American fighters then German fighters, and you can only attack one at a time.......for the German pilots it was fighting against rediculous odds, and they were not after the fighters but after the bombers wich made it only harder on them.....

When some of you state there were no BF109 or FW190 with 15 mm or 13 mm machinguns, that maybe true for studybooks that only cover mass production models by their factory design, but especially late in the war almost no fighter fought as factory equipped......at least not the factory they originally were build in. Like all longer time surviving german units aircraft too were regularly called back for upgrades into newer existing versions or often also non existent versions. This was caused by not having the time to test new experimental weapons, and plain shortage of the original weapons and parts. There were even BF109's and FW 190 that never were built in a factory........these were assembled from parts of crashed BF109's and FW190's. Your books don't cover them......

Really not so strange, reconstructing whole fighters out of wrecks happend with Spitfires and Hurricanes during the Battle of Brittain aswell.

I had to read this post three times to figure out what the hell you were trying to say. You speak in such a condescening manner, but yet don't present opinions that necessarily contradict those of other posters. Strange.

No one was arguing that 13mm machine guns weren't effective. They just weren't as good as the Browning .50. That was what you asked originally, and that was what was answered.

The 15mm was a cannon, in the sense of the weapon's size and weight. When considering what weaponry to install on an aircraft, the MG151/15 was considered to be a cannon. More important than the /15 is the MG151 designation. The MG151/15 weighed almost three times as much as the MG131/13. The MG151/15 was nearly identical to the MG151/20 cannon in most. Both had the exact same weight. The major differences were the differing barrel bores and type of ammunition fired.

Moving on, no one here said that Luftwaffe fighters didn't carry 13mm or 15mm guns late in the war. I'll say it now though - 15mm were [I]not used at all[I] in any 109s after the F series. The G series just didn't use them. The only reason the MG151/15 was used at all was because there were development delays with the MG151/20. By the time the G series came along in 1942, the MG151/20 and MG131/13 were standard weapons.

The FW190 never used the MG151/15 at all, whether factory-fitted or otherwise. There was just no reason to when better weapons were available.

The MG131/13, however, was widely used. No one here said otherwise. They were typically mounted above the engine. My original point, though, was that they weren't the main armament - they were used as a guide for the pilot. When tailing a fighter, he would first fire the MGs until he got hits, then open up with the cannons to deliver the coup de grace. The MG131/13 was just not a good enough weapon to serve as a fighter's primary armament, especially considering that the focus of the jägdgeschwadern in the West, during 1943, shifted more and more to attacking the waves of high-altitude heavy bombers.

The MG131/13 just wasn't a good weapon. The Browning .50 cal wasn't either. It was better than the MG131/13, but it still many of them, six or eight, to deliver sufficient firepower for air-to-air engagements.




Lateralus

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#77 14 years ago
Beast of War When some of you state there were no BF109 or FW190 with 15 mm or 13 mm machinguns

Just highlighting this. No one here said this. At all. In reference to the 13mm at least, I said just the opposite. The MG131/13 was widely used.