NOTE: This origionally started out as a reply to a thread in Suggestions, but I'm feeling especially boisterous tonight (and it's 4AM, crimminy) I felt like giving it its own thread.
nosispowerFrom personal experience with rifles, they are very very accurate weapons indeed. The bullets go exactly where the rifle is aimed, but for a really great shot, it does take a few seconds to aim. Truth is that the rifles are too accurate in the game, because most of the time I aim at a dot on the horizon and I can get a kill. I'm actually very good at long range moving target kills, but even I get annoyed with killing people that way. I know it's unrealistic and I know IRL there's no way I could hit shit at that range even if it weren't moving.
With regards to what noispower said, yes, I mostly agree. The rifles NEED to be very accurate, but the pixel-shooting is a little much. This is just off the top of my head, but it would be nice if the aim closed fairly quickly down to a good shot, then, if you stay still, it will further compress the crosshairs into a VERY accurate shot. Seems possible, because the Bazooka seems to do this. Closes in very quickly, then when the shot is semi-accurate, it continues closing in very slowly, until it is perfectly aimed. This last bit of aiming time could be for the real unscoped rifle-snipers.
Oh, and please make the crosshairs expand more when you crouch and strafe while firing. I'm getting tired of having crouch-strafe wars with riflers. I've never tried it myself IRL, because it's a STUPID thing to do, but I don't think it would actually be all that easy to walk sideways in a crouch while keeping a bead on someone AND keeping your balance while firing a high-powered rifle. Come on.
Finally in my rant for the day, I've mentioned this before, but it's something that would get easily ignored. I'm sure you all have seen, that Walking in FH is absolutely, completely useless. (Default holding SHIFT for you people that have never bothered to try). When you are running ingame, you are RUNNING full tilt. There is no way you would be able to shoot straight with a rifle while running (which IS properly represented ingame now) but it would also be VERY difficult with SMG's. They can (I'm assuming, never tried one) be very accurate prone, crouching in a good position, standing ready, but not while running.
I'd like so see someone run with any kind of gun and try to put bullets even marginally close to where they meant them to go. Again, walk. It's sensible that one could walk slowly, and keep short bursts semi-on target. It would just require a little bit of work on the aiming system, but I think it would be easy. If you run, then slow to a (shift) Walk, your aim should close to where it could be somewhat useful quite quickly. Then, if you stop walking, OR crouch, your aim should close down to near-100% accuracy AT THE SAME RATE whether you CROUCH or STAND STILL. Therefore you could move into a ready stance OR crouch, depending on the situation, and one transition will not improve your aim much faster than another. No more immediately dropping for a crouch for riflers, they could simply do what's more convenient at the time.
Again, think IRL. If I'm walking with my .300 Weatherby and see something, how would I ready myself the fastest for an accurate shot? Personally, I would just stop, steady myself, shoulder the rifle, and fire. (assuming I'm not being safe at all of course). Crouching down into a comfortable position then doing this, would take longer IMO. I don't believe crouching is as steady a firing stance as games make it out to be. I would rather have my knees on the ground, or better yet, sitting on my ass with either my legs out.
Let me clarify and summerize what I'm saying, for those who don't follow my insane ramblings, or those lazy ones who skimmed through and will yell at me because they don't understand. For the % of accuracy, I simply refer to the amount of expansion your crosshairs move. When I say CROUCH, think of it as Crouch OR Prone please.
If you are RUNNING, your aim will be at nearly it's worst point (worst is when jumping). For the sake of why the fuck not, lets say it's 10% accurate (0% would be jumping). From here, you have 3 options really. Hit Shift to walk, crouch, or stand still. When you do ANY of these 3, your accuracy will start increasing at the SAME RATE. Crouching will NOT increase your accuracy faster than standing, and WALKING will increase your accuracy just as fast (OR slightly slower). The difference would be, the max accuracy that they will reach before stopping. If you walk, your accuracy will only go to a maximum of, say, 80% while you continue walking . If you STOP or CROUCH (This is there area where there are several options.. some may not be possible), Your accuracy will quickly go to about 90%. If you remain still, the accuracy will continue, slowly, to 95%. If you are in the PRONE position, it will close to 100%. Like I said, this may be a little too complex, so you could ignore the slower accuracy increase to 100% part, and just simplify it.
Cripes, what a simplification that was. Anyway, please read and comment appropriatly. Let's see if it's possible to have a constructive thread without any one-line answers or flaming. And I apologize for the length of the post, I do go on sometimes. And if anybody thinks it's fine the way it is, great. This is just an idea.
For the most part I agree completely. I recently went back for a game of operation flashpoint to re-experience what realism can do to a game. The graphics may be dated but that undescribable spark that first captivated me is still there. Going back, games like FH seem rather timid in comparison. Operation Flashpoint is the 'civilised' choice if you will. I can't help but love it. The standard crosshair is large (although you can remove it if your mad enough) not particularly accurate and when running its impossible to hit anything smaller than the ground. Switch to the iron sights (not 3d but who cares) and accuracy is great, but still not as much as the rifles in FH. I usually use up half a m16 clip trying to hit a prone target at 200m whereas I'd get him in 1-3 shots in FH. I think the point is that you cannot question the accuracy of WWII rifles or the m16 for that matter as you said, but rather the ability of the soldier who uses them. It is difficult to encompass into a mod like FH what everyone wants. FH is a realism mod, but also for a balance between realism and gameplay (read this I think, correct me if I'm wrong). A lot of people love the 'run crouch fire kill, run crouch fire kill' and a lot don't, it places a lot of emphasis on skill rather than thought. The old 'wisdom before strength' idea has a hard time in this game. I would not change the accuracy of the rifles at all. I would add the 'piat wobble' to all large weapons, rifles included. This would in my opinion keep the accuracy of the gun and at the same time simulate the inaccuracy of the soldier. Considerable wobble standing, less when crouched and little when prone. :)
If it were up to me, I wouldn't add the wobble. I don't like it much because that doesn't feel too realistic either (my handle doesn't sway from side to side when I shoot). However, I'd fully support having the crosshairs close to a point where they're still slightly open.
Yeah, no infantrymap could hit the scalp of a Jerry's head at 600 yards without a scope and years of training and god-given talent. Just a little innacuracy would be nice for the rifles.
I'm not really a fan of wobble myself, but it is an option. If you'll notice with the PIAT, if you switch from the pistol to the PIAT, the wobble isn't there for a few seconds. So, it encourages abusing the aimbug even more. If that started to be the way to use rifles in FH (run around with pistol, pull out rifle, fire) I would just stop playing it. If the crosshairs would just not .quite. close completely with all weapons (unless maybe if you are prone) that would be nice.
OT, but like i said before, I think the solution to the abuse of the AT aimbug is removing the extremely slow closing crosshairs for something more reasonable, and adding a FIRE DELAY to the weapon. Backblast would be cool too.. MG's? Easy, not a selectable class anymore. Have the run-around MG42 only in pick-up kits, or, when the disappearing bipod problem is fixed, ONLY have MG's available as the deployable bipod kit.
In my opinion the rifles should not be pinpoint accurate, no matter if you aimed for a second or minute, prone or standing. A slight spread should be added to the max accuracy. A really slight sway would also do the trick. Nowere near to pzb39's or Piats, but enough to prevent the so called pixel shooting, making it harder to kill MG nests from 500 meters, while keeping them accurate enough to hit an object at <300 meters with no problem.
Close defense at-weaponry should have some kind of deployment delay instead of huge spread on crosshair. I find myself abusing the AT weapons bug nearly all the time, without even thinking of it. However, the changes in accuracy between .5 & .6 weren't in vain. It still quite well prevents soldiers from actually chasing the tanks or jumping around a corner while simultaneously firing the weapon.
Anyway, a lesser maximum accuracy or really slight sway should be added to rifles. Infantry carried AT weapons should probably have a "deployment delay" instead of wide crosshairs, to preven bug abuse. Possibly having the player to reload it everytime he draws it? Somewhat the same way as when you pick up another players kit and for some weird reason have to reload the weapon, only to loose one bullet from the magazine instead of getting a full one. Same system should be used with rifle grenades.
A little less acccuracy would work, and a LITTLE bit of wobble maybe, but keep in mind, any little change like that will hit high-pingers 10X as hard.
Who knows how those crazy code-monkeys will decide to do it, but there are lots of options. Force a reload animation every time you pull it out (but not actually reloading, it will allready be loaded) or some sort of fire delay. I'm sure they'll figure it out. But they have to understand that it's just not acceptable as it is.
Using a firearm is more difficult in real life than it is in game. It is far more difficult to squat, raise the gun to your shoulder, aim & fire in real life than it is in game. While the in-game guns may represent historical accuracy they dont take into account that it is far easier to push a combination of keys & mouse buttons than it is to actually fire a real firearm. Realism is not only making..lets say the Kar...accurate as it was in real life, but also the making it so it reflects how ppl actually used the weapon.
I dont even like to use the Kar in-game anymore. Why? because it is too damned easy. Im not a good player by any means, but with the Kar I do pretty decent kill wise....& this is what scares me. When Teufel does well with a weapon then you know something is wrong.
What should be done? I dunno....but something should be done that reflects the real life firing of a firearm.
I take what n0e says way too seriously
27th April 2003
I definitely agree something needs to be done to the rifles and all the weapons for the matter.
But you cannot make a weapon be more or less accurate depending on the stance nor can you add a seperate modifier for walking.
Sure, very few real soldiers could aim with such accuracy, but then again, every soldier on the FH Battlefield is capable of doing so, so it evens out. Trying to add in every little bit of realism possible will eventually take the fun out of the game, not to mention make it so the only people who get kills are tankers and pilots, or even worse, everyone will run around with their rifle grenades out to forgo the problem of aiming with a blast radius. While I do think something needs to be done about riflers being able to snipe a dot on the horizon, I don't think that aiming itself needs to be much more complicated. Running, on the other hand, is a good place to introduce some sway, if possible. Seems like sometimes, when I'm laying prone in a good position, someone will run around a corner and shoot me before I can get a shot off at them. I don't think that immediately after running around a corner, your aim is going to be that good to be able to stand and shoot me, but that is just me. SMGs especially need it when running. This isn't Unreal Tournament with the mini-gun, so you shouldn't be able to strafe around me shooting me up, and expect to hit my body alot of the time. Running with the SMG and firing should be the equivalent of shooting wild. One of my only real beefs with the PPSH is that it doesn't seem to lose much accuracy when running. Now just get rid of dive and shoot MGers, and I'll be a happy boy. Removing the MGs entirely from maps isn't necessary, as long as these little cheats can be corrected in which MGs can be used as melee weapons and sniper rifles, instead of supporting fire. The MG42 would be fine, I think, if its aiming was similar to that of the current Panzerfaust.