affecting soldier performance in fh2 -1 reply

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Tsunami Bomb

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18th June 2005

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#51 15 years ago
jumjumI am beginning to tire of boys who haven't yet shaved dispensing their wisdom about what categorically happens when a person is shot. Tiresome as well are those who have a little knowledge of classroom Newton, but none of applied physics, lecturing on how, ipso facto, only a bullet which when fired knocks down the shooter can knock down a human target. I'm trying not to be offensive, but you really don't know what you're talking about. And as much as I enjoy watching them, Mythbusters is a reliable source for what techie gays do for fun in San Francisco, nothing more. There are literally dozens, scores, hundreds of factors which relate to any question of whether a human can be knovked down by any weapon which may be fired unsupported. Physics, whether kinetics or mechanics, is only a part. But the short answer is, you better damn sure believe that ANY round in FH can slam a man down or throw him in the air. Just as he may slump. Just as he may twitch, or not. Just as he may stand motionless though dead. Just as he may continue moving or walking even though dead. There is no way of predictng, nor is there a hard and fast rule. But a hit man is moire likely to be slammed down by a .45 than a 9mm, and so on. And you are almost certainly going to break into a few pieces if hit by .50 cal. As for those of you young Newtonians unconvinced, how is it that a man can confortably shoot a rifle that will knock a 700 pound elk off it's feet? Under you're application, it's not physically possible, but it happens commonly. You're not wrong about the laws you stated, but it's not so simple, there are far more factors to be considered, and your conclusion is just wrong.

:gpost: There are many factors, your weight, height, size. You can be knocked down by a bullet, ive seen it with my two eyes. So if you doubt me, (like the mythbusters), you outta be the ones fighting in iraq right now to see it for yourself.




Arisaka

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#52 15 years ago

jumjumAs for those of you young Newtonians unconvinced, how is it that a man can confortably shoot a rifle that will knock a 700 pound elk off it's feet?[/QUOTE] Easy - gravity does the job :D

[QUOTE=Tsunami Bomb]:gpost: There are many factors, your weight, height, size. You can be knocked down by a bullet, ive seen it with my two eyes. So if you doubt me, (like the mythbusters), you outta be the ones fighting in iraq right now to see it for yourself.

It's not the bullet that knocks them down, it's gravity, and them being unable to cope with it because of the momentum and shock caused by the bullet. :D




Tsunami Bomb

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#53 15 years ago
ArisakaEasy - gravity does the job :D It's not the bullet that knocks them down, it's gravity, and them being unable to cope with it because of the momentum and shock caused by the bullet. :D

Dude, like I said, there are many factors, im sure we could go on and on about all of them.




Arisaka

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#54 15 years ago
Tsunami BombDude, like I said, there are many factors, im sure we could go on and on about all of them.

No doubt about it :)




Comrade0Red

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#55 15 years ago

I'm sorry but anything short of a tank shell will not lift a human off the ground. I know police men who have shot people before and they say all they do is twitch once, and then die. He shot someone at 3 foot range with an m-16 and he said the guy's rib cage basically caved inwards, but he still didn't lift off the ground, he just died before he even hit the ground.




jumjum

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#56 15 years ago
Comrade0RedI'm sorry but anything short of a tank shell will not lift a human off the ground. I know police men who have shot people before and they say all they do is twitch once, and then die. He shot someone at 3 foot range with an m-16 and he said the guy's rib cage basically caved inwards, but he still didn't lift off the ground, he just died before he even hit the ground.

Surely you don't truly think that having been told of an instance or two is sufficent basis for such an overstatement, and a false one at that? Aren't you a little embarassed to actually present that as if it is some sort of definitve answer? But then you're the guy who literally called me a racist in "poor Japan" when I mentioned Russian massed-infantry assaults, as well as the Wehrmact's consistent ability to retain unit cohesion and morale with losses as high as 80% (both statements which are correct and historically verifiable, and I have no IDEA how you torture "racist" out of that). So I guess I shouldn't be surprised when here you've made an incorrect and grossly oversimplified statement of fact based on plainly insufficient data, research or thought. roll%20eyes%20%28sarcastic%29.gif BTW, Arisaka, not collapsed (which is also possible), but what I mean is knocked off it's feet. Very different.




Arisaka

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#57 15 years ago
jumjumBTW, Arisaka, not collapsed (which is also possible), but what I mean is knocked off it's feet. Very different.

Please, explain more in detail what you mean by that, english is not my mother tongue. When you knock somebody down, isn't that just what you're doing? Causing the victim to become unbalanced, and thus fall down? Or do you unbalance it, and then knock it vertically to make it fall? It doesn't have to collapse for the gravity to come into effect.

Perhaps we can come closer to an agreement to what's happening if at least we can agree on what the other part is meaning.

The absolute maximum velocity that bullet will be able to give the person is 3,4 inches per second. Anything above that is not done by the bullet (linear motion, if it's a high hit only parts of the body will be accelerated, and thus attain higher speeds). I suppose a high hit could under rare circumstances push a person over its balance point, and swing the person somewhat for instance around C.G., causing the person to lift the legs somewhat before falling down, but again - we are talking hunting bullets, not military bullets.

Either way, this is what the ragdoll physics are supposed to be animating as we play, but is doing a most horrible job at.




jumjum

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#58 15 years ago

Momentum is merely a factor. It's footpounds that I think you're talking about. And we can use Newton's 3rd and figure KE = (m x vv) x 1/2 , or KE = (vv x 450400) x m. We can even get fancy with ol' Albert and figure KE =[(m x cc) - (m(at rest) x cc) / 225200 and get essemtially the same answers. But.it.doesn't.come.close.to.amswering.the.question. This way lies madness. This is where all the myriad variables I'm really trying not to tangle with come into play: bullet shape and composition, angle of entry, area (measurement of space, not part of bullet) of bullet presented, area of, well, flesh, presented, composition of that flesh and what is in flight/wound path, size/volume of wound channel (have you ever tracked some ultra -high-speed film of gel blocks or cadavers getting hit?), etc., etc., etc. And that doesn't even begin to address the various biological and physiological repsonses involved. It's an insane number of variables. Short answer: yes, I mean the target dropping like a ton of bricks, and yes I also mean the target being knocked horizontally until gravity takes over; it just DEPENDS. A hit to the medulla oblongota, if it doesn't bust the skull like a pinata, will drop a man like cutting the strings of a marionette. A hit to torso or thigh will just as likely knock a man forwards or backwards off his feet, or spin him a cartwheel. And this includes those occasions when a man is knocked off his feet and another part of his body hits the ground first. You know, like American football? If you think military small arms and human flesh combine like in Jimmy Cagney gangster movies, you're just wrong. You're gonna have to trust me, and anybody else who not only has read and studied but has seen and done, okay?I'm done; let's go on.