Because YOU demanded it! A new poll on SMGs. -1 reply

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Dee-Jaý

Always 1 point ahead of you

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17th February 2004

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#121 16 years ago

^Amen to that !

Btw: On that Server screnny there are also 0 AT-players. Also rather unusual for a map like Nordwind.




MR.X`

I'm too cool to Post

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29th April 2004

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#122 16 years ago
SkipsterNot arguing one way or the other, but showing Nordwind as an example is almost as bad as using Alpenfestung as an example. My take on this whole issue is that the lion's share of the complaints about SMG's is due to the manner in which they get used, (bunnyhopping, etc) moreso than the guns themselves. I think the root of the whole thing is the unrealistic speed of some movements (ie. you can move at the same speed in any direction, be it forwards, backwards, or sideways, and the jumping is way overdone.) If the movement of the soldiers could be made more realistic, (dunno if that's possible) there would be less benefit from bunnyhopping or running-n-gunning.

:nodding: Its like using the fact that no one takes assault on Prohorkovoka.




Dr. Schmerzgeber

YOU! wanted me... No excuse.

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15th July 2004

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#123 16 years ago
'skipster' I think the root of the whole thing is the unrealistic speed of some movements (ie. you can move at the same speed in any direction, be it forwards, backwards, or sideways, and the jumping is way overdone.) If the movement of the soldiers could be made more realistic, (dunno if that's possible) there would be less benefit from bunnyhopping or running-n-gunning.

Yes, that would be fine. But presumably not possible :( ...




Solo4114

Scoundrel Extraordinaire

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16th September 2002

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#124 16 years ago

Beast of WarJackal, i'm sure it is intended 1 shot 1 kill, but in reality it is more then often not. I can't count the number of rifle hits in the chest that did hit but didn't kill.

That guy was right: a headshot is now the only way to be certain a riflehit truely kills. Then again aiming for the head is more difficult, less surface to hit.

I read about bullet drop but in the ranges i shot persons in the bullet couldn't have dropped much yet, afterall you are firing a high velocity bullet and not thowing a brick at someone.

No need to lecture me on bulletdrop or bulletspread : like a lot of guys here i have been in the real army, for 4 years and had to go to firingranges 2x a week, so much i was utterly fed up with it. I fired pistols, SMG, semi automatic rifles and LMG there. Modern ones, but not so dramticly diffrent then WWII ones.

It is a fact the Uzi SMG they gave me was railgun accurate on semi automatic or short bursts (3 bullets ) at 100 m when you aimed carefully, without bulletdrop. And that is a weapon with pistolbullets and a barrel barely longer then that of a pistol. I think Thompsons, MP40 and PPSH with a much longer barrel can do much better then that. SMG accuracy for up to 100 m is fine in FH.

On the other hand when shooting SMG from the hip ( standing still ) all of us missed the target at only 30 m, or hit the target board but not the human figure on it.....we never did, ( not allowed to ofcourse, hehehe ) but moving or running toward the target only makes accuracy worse, to the point you'll hit nothing with a full magazine.

Maybe the answer lies in making the crosshair spread wider quicker when moving with an SMG, thus ruining aim on the move. That would be realistic but spoils a lot of fun in the game.....

I found riflebullets only began to drop a few cm after 150 m or so and you only had to adjust for 200 m or 300 m ranges......and in FH we almost never fire that long range, ( 150 m ) so except for sniperrifles i wonder why if i hit a player with a rifle anywhere, he is not thrown to the ground out of action ( in FH that means dead ) ALWAYS. Because that is what power rifles have, even when you hit a leg....that soldier is going nowhere after that.

Military pistols are very inaccurate by default, forget about hitting something further away then 30 m, even when carefully aiming ironsights. Sportspistols do better, but those are not WII military pistols. Forget about all those Hollywood movies : if you fire a pistol running, you might not hit a target spending a full magazine as close as 10 m ! That is caused by the lenght of the barrel mostly, and the less powefull pistol round. ( wich most SMG use too, but they have longer barrels )

In short : i think rifle and SMG accuracy are fine, but rifles need more "killing" power ( legs too ) and SMG may need to be more inaccurate while moving.

Beast,

Your post is EXACTLY why I think scaling and/or map design really need to be considered as far as rifle and SMG performance are concerned (as opposed to the issue of distribution/availability, which is separate).

You said it yourself. Most combat in FH takes place at what feels like around 150m. The rifles just don't get to use their inherent advantage that often, either because of the type of map (close combat vs. armor vs. open range infantry), or because of environmental conditions on some maps (IE: visibility issues).

If all your combat, or at least the vast majority of your combat, is going to occur within 150m, why would you bother taking a rifle with you? An SMG will be able to close the distance and then has the distinct advantage of a high rate of fire and a considerably larger magazine than any of the rifles out there, even the semi-auto ones like the G43 and the SVT.

You do, however, bring up a very good point -- when running, if you fire even in short bursts from the hip, you should be missing a LOT.

Here's an idea, though. Right now, I don't think the crosshair spread system really works. You've got a random chance of having a round go somewhere within the spread crosshair, although I don't know what the percentages are. Still, there's always a chance that you'll be able to spray and pray and hit the guy, even at 100m currently, while running AND hopping.

This is why I think the barrel sway/recoil/barrel climb system with a locked crosshair would be far better. The rounds will go where the barrel points, but the barrel may end up pointing all over the place while you're running and/or jumping/diving. This would probably be more disorienting to players who'd try to control the movement of the crosshair (and likely would find it quite difficult to do), which would end up with players missing while on the move and firing a lot more often than they do currently. Which should be how SMGs work. Granted, in close, you should be pretty damn accurate. When kneeling, prone or standing, and firing in short controlled bursts (basically firing range conditions), you'll be accurate out to 100m. But otherwise, your engagement range is going to most likely be half that (as it should be).

The end result of this change would be that rifles (which anyone who uses will tell you requires you to STOP running and/or kneel before firing) would be used in the same manner, but people would end up using SMGs much differently. Rifles would thus be able to maintain more of an edge in terms of longer range combat, and would remain weaker at close range.

That still leaves the issue of availability and distribution, but I think that the above system would help solve some of the inherent weapon performance issues. That or they should just consider scaling things so that the SMG is basically worthlessly inaccurate at anything above 50m. But that seems a rather inelegant way of solving the problem.




The Evil Pumpkin

Wolfgaming Staff

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16th May 2004

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#125 16 years ago
SkipsterMy take on this whole issue is that the lion's share of the complaints about SMG's is due to the manner in which they get used, (bunnyhopping, etc) moreso than the guns themselves. I think the root of the whole thing is the unrealistic speed of some movements (ie. you can move at the same speed in any direction, be it forwards, backwards, or sideways, and the jumping is way overdone.) If the movement of the soldiers could be made more realistic, (dunno if that's possible) there would be less benefit from bunnyhopping or running-n-gunning.

Exactly, very well said. Personally, my biggest problem is how SMG's are used. With a rifle, you need to sit still, and aim(usually crouching achieves this quickly as well). Whereas with an SMG, you can literally run, zig-zag, and even jump and still make multiple kills effectively. Simply put, this is a problem.

The very fact that players come to FH(knowing its a supposed realism mod), and then choose to play as if its a quake fest, kinda defeats the purpose of coming to FH in the first place, doesnt it?




Solo4114

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16th September 2002

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#126 16 years ago

Definitely it's HOW they're used which is the problem, but they're being used that way because there's nothing stopping them from doing so. I suspect that if the SMGs operated as Beast and I were discussing, they'd become a lot less popular and a lot more situational.

That said, on infantry maps like Berlin and such, I still think that it'd be important to promote rifle usage through SMGs as pickup kits.

Look at it this way -- we limit the usage of sniper rifles in FH, right? I suspect it's because, on certain maps, they'd just be too powerful, and also because you could end up with a map with seven scouts (DICE Omaha, anyone?), and because there just weren't that many damn snipers.

I think SMGs, at least on certain maps, should be treated the same.




[SYN] hydraSlav

SYNERGY Member

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2nd October 2003

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#127 16 years ago
SkipsterNot arguing one way or the other, but showing Nordwind as an example is almost as bad as using Alpenfestung as an example. [/QUOTE] So what do you suggest? To show CQ map such as Berlin? Although i do agree with the rest of your post [quote=|HV|MacGyver]on Wolf (which I don't recognise as a n00b server at all, nearly everyone there has decent skills, is polite, adminned excellently etc...).

Just for the record, i never said "n00b/noob", i said "newcomers" which Solo correctly translated as "newbie". Just for the record... And back to your reply, Solo: Newcomers from Vanilla pick SMGs not because they are good and they can use the same style they used in Vanilla, but because they can't use Rifles or simply don't know their power/efficiency. If you imply that FH SMGs are just as easy to use as Vanilla SMGs, i can only conclude that you haven't actually fired the FH SMGs while moving :uhoh: And when you have 20+ ppl firing at you with SMGs, it doesn't matter how experienced you are, some stray bullets will kill you. ... Hold on ... I am sure that right now you are itching to say "See, that's why we need class restrictions", yet i don't agree. It's not the problem with "distribution", it's the problem with the particular population of the server (any server). All experienced players choose rifles as the prefered weapon. Most of the people who voted here, whether they voted for or against change, still prefer rifles over SMGs. And if you get killed often by SMGs, maybe you shouldn't be out in the open... And no, the oncoming of the new players will not make everyone choose SMGs. There maybe a temporary period of "upset distribution values", but that will go away as those SMGers become more experienced. They will be beat and pwned by riflemen hiding in cover, and they will realise, sooner or later that rifles do a better job, so they will get tired of being killed from a distance and will choose to hide themselves now. Here is my speculation, just as yours.




tvih

The Village Idiot from Hell

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29th December 2003

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#128 16 years ago

Beast of WarOn the other hand when shooting SMG from the hip ( standing still ) all of us missed the target at only 30 m, or hit the target board but not the human figure on it.....we never did, ( not allowed to ofcourse, hehehe ) but moving or running toward the target only makes accuracy worse, to the point you'll hit nothing with a full magazine.

Military pistols are very inaccurate by default, forget about hitting something further away then 30 m, even when carefully aiming ironsights. if you fire a pistol running, you might not hit a target spending a full magazine as close as 10 m ! That is caused by the lenght of the barrel mostly, and the less powefull pistol round.

Beast, I know my military training compared to yours is VERY minimal, but yet I can't fully agree with all you said above. I do agree that from the hip hitting a human from 30 meters is pretty much a matter of luck. Also, military pistols are not all that accurate. The Finnish military pistol (produced by FN if I recall correctly) is just about usable from 50m against static targets when aimed properly. Of course WWII pistols probably weren't good. Still, at 10m, I don't think it is all THAT hard to hit someone. At least I can run steadily enough to keep a reasonable enough aim to hit a man from <10m. Of course you couldn't fire in rapid succession much due to recoil though and hope to hit. But with the movement speed of FH, pistols could be used accurately to some extent on the move. And in ranges less than 10m, spraying with a SMG or assault rifle is bound to get hits to the target as well quite easily (right now it's hard for me with 80+ ping) even on the move and shooting from the hip - that's how it is now I guess, and shouldn't be changed.

And on the rifle vs SMG issue in general, indeed, I prefer rifles myself, in closer-range battles. I'll take a semi-auto rifle over a SMG 9 times out of 10 in CQC, and 10 out of 10 in longer ranges. Even bolt-action is nicer than SMG, because I just can't deal enough damage with the ping I have using SMGs most of the time :uhm:




Skipster

I live on Gaming Forums

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29th July 2004

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#129 16 years ago
'[SYN hydraSlav']So what do you suggest? To show CQ map such as Berlin? Although i do agree with the rest of your post

Actually, now that I think about it... Hey! What's that? (points at something, then turns and runs in other direction) :D




Lordbutter

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#130 16 years ago

Hydra, what are you taking about? Sure on that server you showed i saw ?8? people playing. So either ?Half? the team is dead, or your only playing about a 10 on 10. Maybe on that small of a server people can get away with only using rifles because you dont see an enemy every 3 seconds. Show me a Zelona Gora or like you said a Berlin on that server. Ill bet thats smg filled. With that few players on a map like Norwind, you could use a rifle all round. But when its 26 on 26 or more, forget that idea. Experienced players only pick rifles you say? Lol...Ive seen tons of experinced players switch over to smg's now because the best shots with rifles can aim the same way and get kills over distance, and have the luxury of running into a area and spray ammo. Some of the best players wont switch because its almost like cheating to us. Some of us i say, because the rest only care about score. These players will use whatever is the easiest means to get kills. Be it exploiting or using smg's all round. Once good players constantly start using machine guns, what choice will the rest have? Smg's will be beaten by hiding riflemen? Hiding riflemen dont cap flags. They sit around all map and do nuthing. Sure you might get kills, but your team usually loses the map. Its that time you do decide to run into the radius you get killed by 3 smg's because you killed them 2 seconds ago and they respawned back at the nearest flag. Anyone can hide in the bush and get kills. But capping flags with rifle...Lol...try that on a server with more then 8 enemys.