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Real-BadSeed

Science experiment

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5th December 2004

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#121 13 years ago

information isnt just collected from these forums. information is also collected from server admins, and from those servers forums, aswell. and from many a dev and betatester, playing online. watching and listening for countless hundreds of hours, to the comments from players, during actual play. aswell as making our own observations. there are over 50 betatesters and im certainly not the last. and this information collected, is discussed. i certainly know the sentiments of these people.

btw i also made the new saipan-1944 map in the official build, not just tulagi. and historical, also means a certain level of realism. at least to the point of placing some restraints on what happens, and when. name one FH map, that leaves no room to manuver? just because you wont be able to manuver anywhere you feel like, doesnt mean you cant at all. taking measures to restrict cheap tactics that exploit weaknesses in the games engine and limitations, is exactly what the betatesters and devs are trying to achieve. this includes 1 man rambos, the topic of this discussion. or spawncamping another game design problem, and a host of other subjects. yet you insist some of these, are good for this game, and are what make it good. and so many like it. when the info collected, and overall sentiments of, from almost all soarces, says the exact opposite. just go read the bf2 forums, and you will see massive numbers of complaints regarding everyone of these issues, and dozens of others. all with the same theme, cheap exploitive tactics that ruin the game, and fun for the majority of players. and the only supporters are always the persons doing the exploiting...who generally resort to name calling etc. trying to belittle anyone who objects. riddle me this hydra. if so many people like these tactics, why are most of them forbidden on 98% of the servers?




Fuzzy Bunny

Luke, I am your mother.

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2nd May 2005

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#122 13 years ago
Real-BadSeedif so many people like these tactics, why are most of them forbidden on 98% of the servers?

Hangon, I thought we were talking about temporarily uncappable flags in pushmaps? Hanging out there certainly isn't illegal on any servers I know. I think this discussion has taken on dimensions way beyond the original disagreement. There's a lot of lameness, and server rules handle most of it fairly well on the more popular servers--naturally you can't control it so well when hordes of noobs descend on a particular server at a given time.

As for BF2, it has many other problems beyond back-flag capping. Among other things, there's at least the mechanism by which it takes 1 person longer to cap the flag than many, and I agree with Hydra insofar as a team really should pay attention if they're being flanked by a bunch of dudes.

My suggestion to this would be to make it impossible for 1 person to grey a flag meant to be taken by 2 or 3. Does that sound like a sensible approach?

BTW, Saipan-1944 is a great map.




Catraphact

Slightly cooler than a n00b

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24th May 2004

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#123 13 years ago
USMA2010If they don't care enough to register and voice their opinions, screw 'em. The great thing about this forum is it gives the players the ability to give feedback to the developers. Those who do not utilize this gift don't matter to me. Lobo, I'm all for removing bunnyhopping! Just make sure we can still jump enough to get over the occasional fence or fallen tree. ;)

Ok my friend, people aren't registered here and yet play. If they play, they are worth consideration. Don't dismiss them by saying, "they don't matter." If you do that, have fun on the server with 8-10 people on Prokhorovka! You guys here in this fourm need to understand that some people don't join because of language barriers. Yes, that is correct. So many Europeans don't join because of language barriers. Also, you are ignoring the Asian factor. Beleive it or not, this mod has a surprisingly large Asian following! As some of you might know, I live in Hong Kong. I went to a cybercafe, they had BF1942 installed, just for FH! They had a 0.7 release party! People play this mod in Hong Kong, Japan, Korea and other big Asian gaming centres. BELEIVE IT! I'm am not lying. :nodding: You guys over at FH have done a fantastic job of creating a worldwide audience. Fantastic. After you Americans go to bed, and you Europeans are just waking up and going to work, the Asian FH gaming scene THRIVES. Not lives, but THRIVES. There can be 2 full 64 player servers, one from Japan, (Jude) and 1 from Hong Kong (MyOrc) Go over to the MyOrc forums, and even though you won't understand much of it, they have a large FH following. Quite a big clan that you European panzer clans would find formidable! (Although I'm not too sure they are a competitive clan) They talk but good things about FH! They have a very active FH forum. So, there, a big Fh forum that exists, but, doesn't post here. They aren't registered here because of language barriers. I am not lying when I say, Asian players make up 40% of the FH gaming crowd. Almost NONE are here. But they can't be dismissed. Here, an example of a full, adminned Asian server. Jude is the name:




Niles[DK]

GF makes me horny

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1st September 2004

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#124 13 years ago

A lot of postings about keeping FH open ended, how rules would ruin gameplay and so on..but in reality very few maps are open ended as it is. On a map like Arnhem, the same thing will happen over and over (axis rushing to rear) either that or they never break through, same with Iwo Jima and the airfield..the maps that are truly open ended like Kharkov Outskirts are just a huge mess of running around in circles with no front lines. A map like Meuse River Line, will mostly end with axis holding the town flags, sure allies are free to try and cap any flag they like, but capping anything but the boat or the SW town flag is pointless and will get them nothing, so even though its open ended there is still a specific way the map plays. I can only see it as an advantage trying to root out the things most people view as bad for the game and controlling the way the maps play out with push system, anti camping and so forth. As i said a map will always have a couple of most likely outcomes, why not make sure those are at least somewhat realistic..of course flanking should still be possible, and it is - Axis still attack first defense line on Tobruk from the flanks, they just cant rush to the rear anymore..and whats wrong with that ? People arguing that the rear shouldnt be left unguarded and the defenders can blame themselves for rushers still havent gotten the game I'm afraid... You are not supposed to have to defend uncaps or the material within them, that be mains or uncaps on a push map. It's very simple logic, we are a limited amount of players so to simulate the remaining soldiers at the battle, some flags are uncappable. In some distant future we might have a game that can generate a realistic amount of bots to defend those bases, and if so no one is going to be able to get near them anyway..cant be done now, so we have uncaps and anti basecamp system. I really dont see how this can be so hard to understand..driving a jeep through a defense line of 30 ppl and trying to pass it off as realisticly flanking the enemy is just dumb. My opinion of course :)




[tR]Mad Mac

Aerospace Engineering FTW!

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19th May 2004

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#125 13 years ago
'Niles[DK']A lot of postings about keeping FH open ended, how rules would ruin gameplay and so on..but in reality very few maps are open ended as it is. On a map like Arnhem, the same thing will happen over and over (axis rushing to rear) either that or they never break through, same with Iwo Jima and the airfield..the maps that are truly open ended like Kharkov Outskirts are just a huge mess of running around in circles with no front lines. A map like Meuse River Line, will mostly end with axis holding the town flags, sure allies are free to try and cap any flag they like, but capping anything but the boat or the SW town flag is pointless and will get them nothing, so even though its open ended there is still a specific way the map plays. I can only see it as an advantage trying to root out the things most people view as bad for the game and controlling the way the maps play out with push system, anti camping and so forth. As i said a map will always have a couple of most likely outcomes, why not make sure those are at least somewhat realistic..of course flanking should still be possible, and it is - Axis still attack first defense line on Tobruk from the flanks, they just cant rush to the rear anymore..and whats wrong with that ? People arguing that the rear shouldnt be left unguarded and the defenders can blame themselves for rushers still havent gotten the game I'm afraid... You are not supposed to have to defend uncaps or the material within them, that be mains or uncaps on a push map. It's very simple logic, we are a limited amount of players so to simulate the remaining soldiers at the battle, some flags are uncappable. In some distant future we might have a game that can generate a realistic amount of bots to defend those bases, and if so no one is going to be able to get near them anyway..cant be done now, so we have uncaps and anti basecamp system. I really dont see how this can be so hard to understand..driving a jeep through a defense line of 30 ppl and trying to pass it off as realisticly flanking the enemy is just dumb. My opinion of course :)

Very good post, thank you for putting my feelings so elequently into words.

To me (and I believe most everyone else) FH represents realistic BATTLES and combat in WW2, not a management simulation that incorporates every facet of war. When "we" play, we play as average Joe infantryman/tanker/pilot, not Joe the cook at the batallion HQ, Joe the General's secretary, Joe the guy that checks on the tank fuel in the 55 gallon drums, or Joe the soldier on relieve who is currently stationed back at the main base.

These are the people who in REAL LIFE would have kept you from running into enemy controlled territory and stealing their BRAND NEW best tank/vehicle. FH isnt about chefs/typists... its about the actual frontline combat, thats why uncap basecamping/theft is unnacceptable for a realism mod.

The next person to bring up the "flanking" defense should be hit across the head. You are in no way limited in you "flanking" maneuvers in game. If you wish to flank a defensive position or control point, by all means do so. Go behind it and catch the enemy DEFENDING IT off guard.

But please, stop trying to sell your desire to rape an uncapturable base as a bastardized version of tactics.




Real-BadSeed

Science experiment

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5th December 2004

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#126 13 years ago

fuzzy almost all servers have no basecamping rules. and it applies almost always, to yet uncappable pushmap flags aswell. or they have specific rules regarding them, allowing for maybe stealing of vehicles. but hanging out raping, is rarely allowed. most servers have changed to the no camp rule, as its heavily disliked by the majority. and causes problems on their servers and arguements. and the few servers that do allow it, are mostly empty or only have basecampers that play their. deadmeat was such a server, was mostly played on by fellow baserapers. it eventually died, but its now back since .7 and is almost always empty. so what does that say...

and ill say it again. where push cages and antibasecamp code have been employed, it is to simulate the situation of the time of the battle. and the inability of said attacker to flank, except in certain ways, and to the degree that was possible in the real battle. fh's stalingrad map is a perfect example. imagine how stupid the map would be if it was much wider, and the russians could flank wide to cap the back flag. it wouldnt be the battle of stalingrad anymore would it.




Lobo

All your base are belong to FH

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27th April 2003

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#127 13 years ago

'[SYN hydraSlav']Yeah.... you, and i am suprised to say Lobo too, seem to have forgotten what the philosophy behind the mod was. Oh wait... you weren't even part of these forums back then

FH (untill the "change of management") was always advertised as a historically accurate mod, not a realism mod (nor a WWII re-enacment script)

All you have to do is search the old posts comparing FH with BG42 and XWWIIO. The devs of that time clearly stated that all these mods had different goals, thus not in direct competition between each other. BG42 was defined as an arcade-style play, but with a full assorment of WWII toys (missing from BF42), XWWIIO was defined as a complete-realism mod, and FH was defined as a historically accurate mod.

In the past, whenever the "realism" argument was raised, it was common to hear from the devs that "FH is not a realism mod, it's a historically-accurate mod"

At those times, people would choose which mod to go with,. Whether it was the complete realism (and not fun) of XWWIIO, or the arace of BG42, or in-between, that is FH.

And as obvious from the amount of new posters (Catraphact, Qban, etc) voicing their protest, those that choose FH for what it represented back then are not happy with the sudden turn towards the "FH is a realism mod now" card that came out of nowhere with the upcoming of 0.7. Had we wanted complete realism, we would have chosen XWWIIO back then (now virtually extinct due to no fun in the gameplay). And the more FH turns into a no-fun-complete-realism-repeat-battle-per-script game, the more people like Catraphact would show up. Hmm... maybe it's a good thing, we will have more voices on our side then

You are wrong, FH goal was always to create a realistic mod (and we got it, imho), but some persons has always tried to convince you we were not a realism mod, you are a wise person so I guess I don't need to say you who they are.

There is two ways to create a realistic mod in the battlefield engine, that has large maps but limited in size: the fanatic system>to translate raw data, or adapt the raw data so the players "feel" is real. IMHO the first system is plain and simple wrong, my little sister could code that "realism" mod in one evening and you would see things that nobody could feel as real, like a chi-ha destroying a kingtiger or a maniouverable fighter that can't turn in the size of a BF42 map.

I don't understand why all this polemic about push or ABC code, it's used in very few maps, only in the ones were is really necesary to create an intense and fun battle, and no dozens players sneaking to a back flag, perverting absolutely the recreation of the historic battle, and BTW, playing a boring battle because sneaking usually means you only shoot against the cactus of the road.

BTW, I must team up with Catraphact, not all FH players post in this forum, we are doing the mod for everybody and everybody has the right to give opinions.




Tas

Serious business brigade

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4th September 2004

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#128 13 years ago

Catraphact~stuff~[/quote]

Prove it, you are pretty arrogant to even think you can represent a group. Fact is, they are not posting. "They might be against it!" doesnt get us anywhere, speak for yourself, and yourself alone.

[quote=HydraSlav]Definition of "to exploit" as defined in the first entry from Dictionary.com: "To employ to the greatest possible advantage" As defined in the Merriam-Webster Online dictionary: "To make productive use of " Umm... so, what is wrong with that? Everyone in WWII exploited everything, in order to gain the greatest possible advantage over the enemy and to make productive use of what they had in order to win.

There is a series of concepts known as cheat-exploits, such as walking through walls, falling under the world but shooting through, etc, and those are a big no-no for anyone.

He was probably refering to things like the Knife/Mg glitch, or these days even the knife/rifle, using artillery to destroy the enemy's vehicles right as they spawn as the game starts, etc.

I feel clans and clan members should leave their exploiting at the door of a public game, and should not expect the developers of a realism mod to condone(sp?) weasily tactics and exploits.




Fuzzy Bunny

Luke, I am your mother.

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2nd May 2005

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#129 13 years ago
Real-BadSeed fh's stalingrad map is a perfect example. imagine how stupid the map would be if it was much wider, and the russians could flank wide to cap the back flag. it wouldnt be the battle of stalingrad anymore would it.

Hrm, in the real battle of Stalingrad, "flank wide to cap the back flag" is pretty much exactly what the Russians did. Same with Arnhem (although admittedly we know how that ended), the invasion of France, and numerous other examples.

That notwithstanding, I've not seen rules against fighting (I won't call it camping) at not-yet-capturable push flags. It is my understanding that hslan does not have these, although they are strict about camping mainbases, and I simply do not know about WOLF or TDP--maybe one of their admins would care to comment.

The fundamental equation of still-restricted push flags and mainbases is fallacious notwithstanding. A mainbase is the spawn of last resort, not to mention where (more often than not) the most valuable and crucial equipment spawns. Hence camping it is taboo, as it provides an unfair and admittedly unrealistic advantage.

Let's now take, for example, Foy. I'm an American--before flag 1 is capped, I managed to sneak around the barrage of fire coming through the village and the flag--it's not cappable for Germans, but are they wrong to defend it? I have no chance of getting to #1 by myself through the German lines, so my best bet is to raise holy hell in the town square, shovel their gunners from behind, possibly steal a truck and try to set up a death trap at #2 for those people spawning, in which case my guys can cap #1. Am I camping? Is it unfair and unrealistic of me to not just limit myself to linearly attacking head-on in the super-effective US Civil War school of infantry tactics? Hardly.

Second example, your (once again, superb) map Saipan. I drive an LST up left of the harbor to flank around the Japanese Eastern defenses, and to take out as many people as possible trying to spawn at #2 and #3 for whatever reasons. I'd say, if I did this at the airfield, I'd be camping. But where's the limit? 1 flag back? 2 flags back? No, I am giving my team a legitimate advantage through superior tactics. The other guys always have the choice of spawning elsewhere and trying to out-flank the flanker.

Anyway, I don't think we're going to convince each other here. I'll leave it with my point that I hope this is left to server admins as a matter of policy and to players as a matter of good judgment about where tactics end and camping starts, rather than implemented as a technical restriction that cannot be turned off.




[SYN] hydraSlav

SYNERGY Member

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2nd October 2003

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#130 13 years ago
FuzzyBunny
"Real-BadSeed"if so many people like these tactics, why are most of them forbidden on 98% of the servers?
Hangon, I thought we were talking about temporarily uncappable flags in pushmaps?

Yeah... me too... There is just 1 server that i know that considers out-of-order push flags as "uncaps". 98% you say? Ha!

BTW, Catraphact, i am just genuinely curious at to what types of rules, if any, exist on those asian servers?