FH critics Second Edition -1 reply

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AussiePepsi

Addicted to GF

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20th December 2004

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#41 13 years ago

Don't know if you have listed this yet,

The panthers MG is bugged bad i mean you try turn it, it gos crazy.




caeno

Yeah.

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9th August 2003

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#42 13 years ago

Strumtrupp:

You missed my point from my post. As this thread is about tank accuracy and not about "100% realistic game".

I just stated my opinion, that every weapon and vehicle should be as accurate as they were in real life under. Now, when everyone knows that some weapons are really accurate and really deadly, MAYBE, just maybe people will learn to play more carefully and use team work to over come all problems.

I emphasize my point only to realistic weapon handling and accuracy. Imo, artificial emotions such as fear etc. should never ever be implemented in games. If weapons are as accurate as in real life then THAT creates the fear factor you want and that should be enough to affect players behaviour in the game. If you don't care about your virtual life then i guess you don't "fear the enemy" nor their weapons. I do care about my virtual life and try to play carefully and i do "fear the enemy and their accurate weapons".

Put in short: Realistic accuracy on weapons should be enough to create "the fear and pissing your pants" feature and affect the gameplay and players.

I don't see any downsides to weapons being as accurate as in real life. I can adjust my playing style to any situation.




Nick666

Slightly cooler than a n00b

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13th May 2004

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#43 13 years ago
Strumtrupp FH is not nearly close to realism and that is good. It, nor any other game, could ever reach that goal! So we sacrifice that which we cannot achive for that which will make the game playable.

Right, no game is 100 % realistic and FH will never be. But FH wants to be as accurate as possible.

A big problem in gameplay FH actually has are the rail-gun like carbines. Atually, it is a hard job to hit an enemy at 300 m even with a modern aimsight! In FH you can "pixel aim" at an even longer range. This ends in a sniper tactic gameplay in FH, where the majority of your team combats the enemy at long range with carbines. This is far from realistic.

FH2 will probably do the job better with accurate ironsights for ALL weapons! So, the FOV is limited and at long ranges your target is (or should be) to small for 100 % acurate pixel-aiming with an iron sight.

Also, the MG in FH (MG42) actually is not the weapon it was in WW2! The muzzle flash is far over-the-top and it is to inacurate. CoD2 has a better implemented MG42. There, the muzzle flash is realistic and your clear sight will be limited because of a lot of smoke the MG is producing! I hope FH2 will also do this job better with a powerful MG that is lmited (when squad-system is implemented hopefully some classes (e.g. the MG) will be limited to squad-members only!! Thus, you can simulate accurate platoon equipment (e.g. 1 MG per squad OR 1 special troop per squad (sniper/MG/engineer...))!

P.S. FH is much fun to play and I think FH2 also will. But it could be even better!




Strumtrupp

FH:STURMTRUPP4|BF2:HG_The Tank

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2nd January 2005

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#44 13 years ago

caenoStrumtrupp: You missed my point from my post. As this thread is about tank accuracy and not about "100% realistic game". I just stated my opinion, that every weapon and vehicle should be as accurate as they were in real life under. Now, when everyone knows that some weapons are really accurate and really deadly, MAYBE, just maybe people will learn to play more carefully and use team work to over come all problems.[/QUOTE] But you are missing the point I was trying to make that yes, they might be as accurate as they where IRL but those using them are the problem.

I emphasize my point only to realistic weapon handling and accuracy. Imo, artificial emotions such as fear etc. should never ever be implemented in games. If weapons are as accurate as in real life then THAT creates the fear factor you want and that should be enough to affect players behaviour in the game.

Nope. The MG42 is one hell of a weapon IRL. In FH no one cares as you can strafe-duck-nametag-kill the mg guy from 200 yards away.

If you don't care about your virtual life then i guess you don't "fear the enemy" nor their weapons. I do care about my virtual life and try to play carefully and i do "fear the enemy and their accurate weapons". Put in short: Realistic accuracy on weapons should be enough to create "the fear and pissing your pants" feature and affect the gameplay and players. I don't see any downsides to weapons being as accurate as in real life. I can adjust my playing style to any situation.

But it won't because you will never be able to map the RL combat to virtual combat. Never ever! Unless we strap wires to people and then shock them everytime they get hit/die. In games everyone knows that no matter how carefull they play, it is still a game and you will respawn shortly. So you take that extra chance here or there, run into a room guns blazing.

If we made the tanks realistic, no one would play them anymore because it would take 3+ people (that MUST work together) to actually be usable. It would be stachel/AT-bait!

Don't get me wrong, I agree on the realism part BUT it must still be playable. Trying to copy RL into a game will make for a pretty boring game. One of the ww2 freaks will probably correct me but I presume an attack took multiple hours, if not days, using all the equipment you can get your hands on. First bombers and stuka then artillery then tanks and finally infantry move in to clean up what is left. That which was destroyed was not replaced until later.

(come to think of it, a counterstrike-style round-system might just work. Each round is an assault and destroyed-killed stuff is NOT replaced.)

[QUOTE=Nick666]Right, no game is 100 % realistic and FH will never be. But FH wants to be as accurate as possible.

And that which you cannot achive you must ballance. We cannot bestow battlefield fear or shell shock or whatnot in the game so we must find a way to handle them. And one possible way is to map the effect to the weapons.

A big problem in gameplay FH actually has are the rail-gun like carbines. Atually, it is a hard job to hit an enemy at 300 m even with a modern aimsight! In FH you can "pixel aim" at an even longer range. This ends in a sniper tactic gameplay in FH, where the majority of your team combats the enemy at long range with carbines. This is far from realistic.

Bingo! The problem is the human component is missing. Irl people actually have to stand still for a few secs, control their breathing and then still fight the little sway that is left. Not only carabines are that way, many weapons iirc.

FH2 will probably do the job better with accurate ironsights for ALL weapons! So, the FOV is limited and at long ranges your target is (or should be) to small for 100 % acurate pixel-aiming with an iron sight.

It would help but not eliminate. Many players are already bitching about removing the regular crosshairs.

Also, the MG in FH (MG42) actually is not the weapon it was in WW2! The muzzle flash is far over-the-top and it is to inacurate. CoD2 has a better implemented MG42. There, the muzzle flash is realistic and your clear sight will be limited because of a lot of smoke the MG is producing! I hope FH2 will also do this job better with a powerful MG that is lmited (when squad-system is implemented hopefully some classes (e.g. the MG) will be limited to squad-members only!! Thus, you can simulate accurate platoon equipment (e.g. 1 MG per squad OR 1 special troop per squad (sniper/MG/engineer...))!

Agree 90% But I think the problem is on both sides. MG42 is nerfed but the other side is to much in favor.

DoD1.3 is also a very good comparison. One well placed MG42 in Cean and you controled the area! BUT it still had its weaknesses. Also the Kars, scoped and normal, remind me of FH. People used the normal version to snipe because the 'zoom' did not have the sway.

P.S. FH is much fun to play and I think FH2 also will. But it could be even better!

Exactly! You or I or anyone else is writing their hands numb for a game they could care less about! ;)




Sgt.kar98

Back from the dead

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23rd November 2004

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#45 13 years ago

Stauffenberg,you´re right.The AT grenades SUCK MAJOR TESTICLES! In Tobruk,using the N.73 is a disaster!You have to hug the tank to trow a grenade that do more damage in you than in the tank! You till can´t see the explosion.To make that @#%&¨%$# do something,you must hit the tank with it,and not trow near...




caeno

Yeah.

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9th August 2003

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#46 13 years ago
Bingo! The problem is the human component is missing. Irl people actually have to stand still for a few secs, control their breathing and then still fight the little sway that is left.

Product of the crosshairs. I don't know, but i really hope the devs can make a sensible and atleast somewhat realistic "getting ready to shoot" (taking the weapon up, aim and be ready to shoot the perfect shot) So i hope this will be eliminated from FH2. And if nametags will be removed or nametagdistance changed by the devs then it will atleast help the issue.

But i agree, when players don't care about their virtual lives, it changes gameplay. But i do believe when weapons are as accurate and deadly as in real life, they will learn their lesson once they get killed by one single dude with mg42 in a good place 10 times in a row :)




Nick666

Slightly cooler than a n00b

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13th May 2004

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#47 13 years ago
Strumtrupp Bingo! The problem is the human component is missing. Irl people actually have to stand still for a few secs, control their breathing and then still fight the little sway that is left. Not only carabines are that way, many weapons iirc. It would help but not eliminate. Many players are already bitching about removing the regular crosshairs.

I hope the "aiming system" will be implemented that way in FH2! You should have to aim with your ironsight to actually hit something and there should be no crosshair. Also, there should be a certain amount of time until your ironsight "stand still" dependent on your position and constitution. This would be nice ;) This way, the weapons will have a more realistic look and feel! Shoot from your hips and aim with an fictive crosshair is rambo-style Hollywood cinematic!




sidtherat

Da Ya Think I'm Sexy?

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7th September 2004

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#48 13 years ago
Shoot from your hips and aim with an fictive crosshair is rambo-style Hollywood cinematic!

so you've never shot a weapon.. after even short training you can succesfully engage cqc targets from the hip, or on the run. it is a matter of skill and training. play paintball/asg sometime and youll see yourself. maybe reciol isnt as big as with normal guns, but first shot isnt as much affected anyway, so..

im also possitive on removing crosshairs, but im strongly against f.. with iron sights, as dice did with bf2

iron sight works simple - bullet goes where IS points. exactly where IS points. not some 'magic' distance away added for greater 'fun' and realism [bs]

i still cant believe, that only game that did things right is operation flashpoint...




Nick666

Slightly cooler than a n00b

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13th May 2004

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#49 13 years ago
sidtheratso you've never shot a weapon.. after even short training you can succesfully engage cqc targets from the hip, or on the run. it is a matter of skill and training. play paintball/asg sometime and youll see yourself. maybe reciol isnt as big as with normal guns, but first shot isnt as much affected anyway, so.. im also possitive on removing crosshairs, but im strongly against f.. with iron sights, as dice did with bf2 iron sight works simple - bullet goes where IS points. exactly where IS points. not some 'magic' distance away added for greater 'fun' and realism [bs] i still cant believe, that only game that did things right is operation flashpoint...

sure I did with the G36 in my time at german army! Shooting your G36 in single-fire mode from the hip at a 20m target. Sure you can hit something when it is near enough! but you will not hit a target in e.g. 100m with more than luck! That is what I mean. The crosshair and the pixelaiming and rail-gun style in FH whilst shooting from the hip is rediculous!! Remove the crosshair and have a little random spray when shooting from the hip, so you can hit targets when near enough but you can't really shoot precise!

I also don't want the BF2-style aiming! I think of a little wobble of your ironsight for a certain amount of time dependant of constitution/weapon/position but you will always hit where your sight is aiming at (but don't forgett the ballistics)! No randomness like in BF2. So, with a little skill and concentration you can always hit your target.




Strumtrupp

FH:STURMTRUPP4|BF2:HG_The Tank

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2nd January 2005

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#50 13 years ago

caenoProduct of the crosshairs. I don't know, but i really hope the devs can make a sensible and atleast somewhat realistic "getting ready to shoot" (taking the weapon up, aim and be ready to shoot the perfect shot) So i hope this will be eliminated from FH2. And if nametags will be removed or nametagdistance changed by the devs then it will atleast help the issue. But i agree, when players don't care about their virtual lives, it changes gameplay. But i do believe when weapons are as accurate and deadly as in real life, they will learn their lesson once they get killed by one single dude with mg42 in a good place 10 times in a row :)[/QUOTE] The 'getting ready to shoot' could be realized with the spread. Since you are not yet set you have spread. Even then IMHO there should be a minimal spread left enough to make long range sniping (without a scope) subjected to luck. Also I'd make the bullets deadlier to ballance the minimum spread. Dunno if BF2 system would help because your aim in IS mode is ALWAYS 100% which, if you have played BF2 (can't remember you mentioning it ATM) makes every weapon usable to snipe. (some can shoot better with the G3 then someone with a sniperrifle)

I agree 100% on the nametags. I had mentioned elsewhere my experiances playing on a server where nametags were at like 10cm and no hit indicators (or was it no death messages?) THAT rocked! Yeah I killed some teammates who had thought it smart to enter the infight or fell prey to my snap-shooting. After I got my ass chewed out and finally got into the flow it turned into some of the BEST games I have ever played. Again a reference to DoD where one could turn off the death messages server-side, which ment you never knew if the person you were shooting at is dead or not. Different example: See 3 guys run into a building, you throw in 1 gren. With death messages you looked to see if 3 deaths poped up. Without you and your buddy threw in all you had just to be sure. The pace slowed down but the fighting got a LOT more intense. You change your style of play VERY quickly on such a server!

Nick666I hope the "aiming system" will be implemented that way in FH2! You should have to aim with your ironsight to actually hit something and there should be no crosshair. Also, there should be a certain amount of time until your ironsight "stand still" dependent on your position and constitution. This would be nice ;) This way, the weapons will have a more realistic look and feel! Shoot from your hips and aim with an fictive crosshair is rambo-style Hollywood cinematic!

Exactly! The minimal sway that will always be there maybe does exactly what it should. SMGs are not effected as the minimal spread only effects the first shot (the rest spread even worse) and even then the distance at which it comes into play is beyond the optimal range for a SMG. For regular rifles it would also only affect the weapon near max range (iirc the optimal range is med-long, correct?). Anything beyond optimal range would again be a matter of luck.

[QUOTE=sidtherat]so you've never shot a weapon.. after even short training you can succesfully engage cqc targets from the hip, or on the run. it is a matter of skill and training. play paintball/asg sometime and youll see yourself. maybe reciol isnt as big as with normal guns, but first shot isnt as much affected anyway, so..

Spray and pray. Would not really change anything with our suggestions.

Also, even if I would also use Paintball as an example, they are still not compareable. Different recoil, trajectory, munition size, 'environment'.

im also possitive on removing crosshairs, but im strongly against f.. with iron sights, as dice did with bf2 iron sight works simple - bullet goes where IS points. exactly where IS points. not some 'magic' distance away added for greater 'fun' and realism [bs] i still cant believe, that only game that did things right is operation flashpoint...

IS, well like spread, is a matter of implementation. Even using IS IRL there would be minor effects to the aiming. BF2 made the IS 100% accurate, one thing I hope is avoided as well.