Gazala changes. -1 reply

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Ohioan

Not Wise Shitashi - Cheston

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6th October 2003

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#1 13 years ago

Lets start with a breakdown of some of the equipment featured in this map.

Allies Churchill - 6pdr (57mm) gun, capable of destroying any axis tank in 1 shot. 2 max. Armored to the point of being a truly heavy tank. Only effective counter: P IV F or bombs.

Matilda II - 2pdr (40mm) gun, capable of destroying most axis tanks in 1 shot. 2 at long range. Armored beyond practical engagement by anything less then a P IV F or a bomber.

Sherman - 75mm gun. Gun slightly less powerful then P4F gun, armor about the same. These are pretty close to equal. High profile makes it a poor choice when there's not much cover. Still above and beyond most axis armor.

Crusader - 6pdr (57mm) gun capable ofdestroying any axis tank in 1 shot, 2 max. Low armor but high top speed.

Daimler - 2pdr (40mm) gun. Capable of high speed and good maneuverability. Small size.

Hurricaine - 2 250kg bombs, 20mm cannons. Plus there's 2 of them. It flies like its unarmed, despite carrying almost 900 lbs of bombs which would severely reduce its agility in A2A combat.

Defiant - sucks and rocks at the same time. 250 kg bomb, maneuverable. Totally useless gun turret and no front guns, no armor, crazy takeoff physics.

B-25 - the .50 FW190 of bombers. Maneuverable, nearly silent, carries tons of bombs, has front-firing .50 cals.

Axis Panzer IV D - Shortbarreled 75mm that is worthless in any role. Still dosen't kill infantry worth a damn. Not like anyone is infantry on this map.

Panzer II - 20mm POS cannon and no armor. Can't survive 7.92mm bullets to the back. Easy prey for any armored vehicle. Only effective against Daimlers, Crusaders, or jeeps/arty/halftracks. Who uses halftracks?

Panzer IV F - Long 75mm capable of killing most Allied tanks from long range, decent front armor, decent speed. A good all-around tank about equal to a Sherman in FH.

Stug 3 G - Long 75mm effective at range against most Allied armor. Tight winding desert paths make the turretless square an easy target for allied planes.

Stug 3 B - Short 75mm not effective against anything, weak armor, crap crap crap.

Stuka - Great bomber.. if there weren't allied fighters around.

BF109 - 2 7.92mm guns and a couple of 20mm guns that fire individually. Dosen't do enough damage per second to make it worth a damn. Can barely outturn Hurricaines with 900 lbs of bombs on them. Takes several seconds of sustained, good hits to kill allied fighter/bombers.

JU88 - huge, less bombs then the B-25, slower then B-25, can't turn as well as the B-25, crappy turret guns that do negligible damage to planes, IF they can hit them. No front firing guns. Cool cockpit though.

So.. every allied tank has a longbarreled long range gun that is capable of killing any axis tank with 1 or 2 good shots. Only one axis tank has that ability. The Stug is unable to use its gun in many situations given that the desert roads are too thin to turn the entire vehicle in the direction of any enemy. Most other axis tanks are dog food.

Allies have 2 hurricaines, 1 Defiant, and 1 B-25. I know allies had air superiority, but there's no counter on axis. No mobile AA at all. This makes 4 bombers in the air at any given time, which is overkill on ANY map of ANY size. The allied bombers are far superior to the axis bombers.

Allied fighters, which are ALSO bombers, are also completely superior to the 1 axis fighter. Dual 20mms that fire quickly are not hard to shoot axis planes down with. Also really good for diving on Panzer IVs and destroying them with roof shoots. They don't even need bombs. Their guns fire fast enough and are accurate enough. The BF109's 20mms are slow firing and don't converge nearly close enough to make it an effective ground attack plane.

What I'm trying to say, is that Gazala is ridiculous. Axis have no chance. They may have won once in some game you played on a pub, they always do ONCE. But for the most part, axis get raped. Their equipment is crap. That alone is a dead giveaway. Allies get all sorts of powerful vehicles and good equipment, including 4 damn bombers, which never stop raping the axis tanks, as if the tanks would make a difference with their crap weapons. No mobile AA to protect them means its even worse then it sounds. No AA spawns in the "valley" area at all. There used to be an 88 in .61, but it got replaced with a PAK40.. don't know why. The 88 could have at least tried to shoot down enemy planes, but it is pretty useless at that. Alright, history speaks, and history says Axis had crap equipment. That I can understand. Axis, however, has NO advantages on this map. Absolutely none. There needs to be some saving grace or oppurtuity for Axis players to win, or else it ends up being a 40 minute spawn camp.

Any argument stating "I once killed a Matilda with a Panzer II, so its balanced" can be shoved. They prove nothing but that in one situation, you were able to kill someone. I'm talking about facts (equipment) and trends (wins/losses). I have screencaps of the final scores on several games, and its always the same. A good 50% of Axis ends up with 0 kills, while Allies have 1 guy with like 45 (the B-25) and everyone else with 20ish. Yes, kills matter. If your dead, how are you going to get flags?

What needs done?

Remove both Hurricaine bombers. Make 1 Hurricaine with guns only (20mm is fine). Leave Defiant and B-25. Give Axis the Panzer III, and a couple of mobile AA halftracks with Vierlings or 20mms. AA needs to spawn in the flag valley, anywhere is fine, as long as some exists.

Sure Axis has the P IV F, which is great. But with 4 bombers in the air, they don't last. No mobile AA or ANY AA in the Flag valley means its all allied wins there.

So what have your experiences been on Gazala?




[11PzG]matyast

[11PzG] clan leader

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5th October 2003

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#2 13 years ago

I agree...that map is an overkill for the allied...




Mp5-Killa

FH Betatester

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20th April 2004

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#3 13 years ago

I pretty much agree with every single point you made there....

Just came off a round and it was pure 'ownage' to the allied side. Not nice when you're trying to get out in a pzr IV F2 and suddenly a hurricane come screeching down dropping a bomb on your head...




[11PzG]matyast

[11PzG] clan leader

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5th October 2003

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#4 13 years ago

Well...that map is screwed...all I have to say...

It represents the ballancing issue in 0.65




Tuge

Perfect Gentleman

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1st November 2003

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#5 13 years ago

I agree completely. Allies airforce can destroy almost all armor what axis got. Allied armor aren't even needed.




Apro-FIN-

Real men don't change avatars!

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1st September 2004

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#6 13 years ago
Ohioan Who uses halftracks?

:uhm: ... I like to use them. I like to lay down mines where according to my logic no-one of my own team has business to go to (roads to axis base when I'm allied for example) and then get loads of TKs when some idiots think it's cool to baserape and drive over my mines with a full jeep. Well the later part I don't like but it happens constantly. That if my halftrack doesn't drive to a 5cm deep hole and get turned around roll%20eyes%20%28sarcastic%29.gif ... The Stugg would be a great tank in this map if only they could be driven at least one minute without being bombed by at least 2 enemy planes... In which year this battle took place anyways? Is it possible to give axis inf. any more effective AT weaponry? Panzershrecks or faust 100's?




Ohioan

Not Wise Shitashi - Cheston

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6th October 2003

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#7 13 years ago

I think Gazala is '42.

No faust100s. The mines are suicidal to use. You can lay them, yes.. they hide well. But your team WILL send an armored column loaded up with infantry right through them and will continue doing it until you are kicked for TKing.




MkH^

FH tester

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25th September 2003

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#8 13 years ago

Haven't tried it in .65. Servers rarely run it, which is good, because even without any balancing issues it's just one crappy vanilla map, designed for vanilla. I dislike all vanilla desert maps. Either they are too small or big without proper equipment. Alamein is complete airplane rape for both sides, the balance is somewhat ok though, Gazala seems to be complete airplane rape too, Tobruk just sucks. Wonder why they weren't removed along with other crappy maps in .65...

How fun is it to drive five minutes in your MatildaII to some distant flag, only to hear the divehorn from Stuka and respawn 20 seconds after? FH's Africa maps are very nice, but those vanilla ones are just terrible.




Flakpnzr

Slightly cooler than a n00b

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22nd June 2004

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#9 13 years ago

I just checked wwiirelics... the first deliveries of panzerfaust 30 didnt start until august 1943. so should axis maybe have geballte ladung instead? :) panzerfaust 100 didnt appear in numbers until november 1944 i believe. regarding the air balance: allies need to have 1 single fighter, not 2. and get rid of the bombs on the fighter. (a hurricane mkI or a spitfire would do) this retains a marginal air superiority for allies but not quite such a crushing advantage as it is now. I dont think tank balance is a big problem on this map really. In my opinion the axis have an advantage in the map layout since all roads from the allied base towards the flags are exposed to hostile fire and restrict your movement heavily, so I think its fair that the allies have more/better tanks. (maybe im just biased, I remember being blown to bits by the stuka on a regular basis in 0.61)




Ohioan

Not Wise Shitashi - Cheston

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6th October 2003

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#10 13 years ago

The allies have a pretty much straight shot path to the Xroads flag, and can spawn at the Valley with a couple of Churchills and Matildas which are next to invincible. Axis have a LONG way to go to get to any flag from their spawn without taking a plane and bailing.