How does Arnhem usually play out for you? -1 reply

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Solo4114

Scoundrel Extraordinaire

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16th September 2002

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#31 16 years ago

Donitz, your plan sounds interesting, but I'm curious as to the Germans owning flags 5 and 6 (but not 7?) on the second day. Were the Brits actually completely encircled? I thought they were just holding off the Germans on the other side of the bridge? I'm not that familiar with this battle, by the way.

Oh, second question. Would the map be in push mode? If so, what order would the flags have to be taken in? I suppose if the Brits are surrounded on day 2, Push mode doesn't really work.

Also, keep in mind a few things about player psychology:

1.) Bleed will influence their behavior. Are the Germans bleeding because they have to capture the British position? Are the Brits bleeding because they have to hold (BAD IDEA)? Or is there no bleed and it's a question of who can outlast whom?

2.) If the Brits are surrounded, players will absolutely try to extend their borders by having the Brits move to capture flags. If they're being hit on 2 fronts and have no weaponry for such an assault (IE: tanks), this will be suicide, but make no mistake, people will do it anyway.

Remember, your MAP may be realistic, but players will NOT behave realistically. Try to keep in mind how the map will be played by both disorganized pub players and by clanners, and make it friendly towards both (if possible). If not, I'd suggest a (c) and (p) version of the map -- one for clans, one for pub play. Just be sure to keep in mind that players won't play like real soldiers, so not all real world tactics will be used. It's far more likely that players will exhibit literally suicidal bravery (or stupidity), and end up losing the map.

Finally, remember this maxim -- pub players NEVER just defend. The British team, therefore, cannot be expected to hunker down, get into position, wait for the Germans, and "hold until relieved." This may lead to boring play where players just complain about being "camped" the whole map.

Just things to consider.




Solo4114

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#32 16 years ago

Black WarshipProblem in this community is clear.

1st side like fragfestmaps (Unreal Tournement style). Make a small map, lots weapons and let everybody kill eachother a much as possible. (Berlin/Zilona Gora)

2 other side likes realism, just use equipment given on the map and fight your way out with skill/patientce and if nessesary kill. (Breaktrough/Prokerovka)

I do think it's a bit more complex than that, but those four maps are definitely at the extreme ends of the spectrum. There CAN be small maps that are tactical and interesting, but a lot of that will require things like push mode or literally having one path to take.

For example, Berlin COULD be really cool if it was a long slog up a few streets for the Russians, and lacked pretty much all the armor. It'd be small, but still interesting.

Foy could also be awesome if the Americans didn't have that damn jeep, and the Germans didn't have that damn APC, and the church was actually a spawn. Then maybe the map wouldn't end so quickly.

Likewise, not all huge maps are great all the time. Berlin Outskirts was a pretty big map, and had a cool concept to it, but often played out in a boring way.

Charlie Sector is another huge map, but (at least in its current version) it also plays out poorly.

I also don't know if the community is as sharply divided on the issue as you might think. I suspect (and I'm just guessing here) that most people don't like maps like Zielona Gora because they're essentially Q3 deathmatch maps. They lack any thought and are just meat grinders. Berlin at least can involve SOME thought, although it's not fantastic.

I suspect more people are into maps where tactics really come into play and it isn't just spawn, shoot, die, repeat. The size, however, isn't 100% determinative of that. A lot has to do with equipment, team balance, and especially map layout.




Admiral Donutz Advanced Member

Wanna go Double Dutch?

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9th December 2003

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#33 16 years ago
Solo4114Donitz, your plan sounds interesting, but I'm curious as to the Germans owning flags 5 and 6 (but not 7?) on the second day. Were the Brits actually completely encircled? I thought they were just holding off the Germans on the other side of the bridge? I'm not that familiar with this battle, by the way.

Hehe the germans would have wished that -to be on the other side of the bridge- since they needed to get their panzer III, IV, V, VI and eventually even the VII to Nijmegen in the south ASAP but for that they had to cross the bridge first.The main german force (the 9th SS panzer division hogenstaufen) was refitting in the area of arnhem and quikly reacted by building a defence wall of man and tanks between the landing areas near Oosterbeek and arnhem/arnhem bridge. Then they send troops and small a small hand of panzer III and IV to the bridge, later during the day of the 18th and 19th of september panzer V, VI and VII arived from germany by train. These immidiatly drove down south after ariving on the railwaystation of Arnhem to help to defeat the british at the bridge. So yes the british where entirly surrounded with the main german force attacking them on the north, west and east flank. The areal is taken at a 90 degree angle, the right side is actually the north and the top of the photo is east (towards Oosterbeek). Nijmegen is to the left -south-.

Oh, second question. Would the map be in push mode? If so, what order would the flags have to be taken in? I suppose if the Brits are surrounded on day 2, Push mode doesn't really work.

Day 1 could be in push mode but i'm not sure yet about which flags they would have to take, the bridge should be able to take the perimeter flags at roughly the same time. The germans first should capture the flags from north to south preventing them to simpl dash acros the bridge. On the 18th pushstyle probably wouldn't work at all, but this will all have to be found out during beta testing. I probably will only release one version (either the 17th or 18th of sept) but this also depends weither the differnces are large enough and which maps proves to be more fun.

Also, keep in mind a few things about player psychology: 1.) Bleed will influence their behavior. Are the Germans bleeding because they have to capture the British position? Are the Brits bleeding because they have to hold (BAD IDEA)? Or is there no bleed and it's a question of who can outlast whom?

The germans probably will bleed or bleed as soon as they lose a single flag, he brits won't bleed for sure or they would be doomed for sure. So it is either non-bleeding british versus a bleeding or non bleeding german force, both sides would start bleeding as soon as they lose a flag though. (a two flak perimeter would be very small/weak and thus the bridge would bleed).

2.) If the Brits are surrounded, players will absolutely try to extend their borders by having the Brits move to capture flags. If they're being hit on 2 fronts and have no weaponry for such an assault (IE: tanks), this will be suicide, but make no mistake, people will do it anyway.

Well the british will be flanked on all sides, but the germans won't start of with a tiger (only panzer III and IV) and they have to manouvre their tanks through the narrow dutch side streets (with nasty windows on the 1st and second floor or even the roof which make for nasty tank traps), they would also have to deal with the rather good positioned 6 pounder (about 4-6 of them and a small set of mortars).

Remember, your MAP may be realistic, but players will NOT behave realistically. Try to keep in mind how the map will be played by both disorganized pub players and by clanners, and make it friendly towards both (if possible). If not, I'd suggest a (c) and (p) version of the map -- one for clans, one for pub play. Just be sure to keep in mind that players won't play like real soldiers, so not all real world tactics will be used. It's far more likely that players will exhibit literally suicidal bravery (or stupidity), and end up losing the map.

Very true, i will first try to find i good balance between real live (tactics and weaponry) and gameplay (acti0ons and weaponry) , if these differneces are too large i might make a realism (clan) version and a pub. version but i would rather have a map that is plays extremly well for clans and a bit less -but still pretty well- for public servers-. I am a realism freak and i would try to please the clans and realism freaks first. Again this all have to be found out during beta testing and it is not likly that this map will be ready for beta testing before april or even later.

Finally, remember this maxim -- pub players NEVER just defend. The British team, therefore, cannot be expected to hunker down, get into position, wait for the Germans, and "hold until relieved." This may lead to boring play where players just complain about being "camped" the whole map.

The british can alway try to capture the south side of the river where there would be a single flag with almost no german vehicle spawns, i might even think of somekind of "reward" for achieving to capture the enitore bridge on both sides. The map would have to feel like a "threating" atmosphere for the bridge and it would have to play as a defense map for them but i would prevent the camp/rape element or the map would just plain suck :) .

Just things to consider.

Thanks! But we better get back on topic and talk about the real arnhem map since i am pretty sure some people hate me for "advertising" my map. *hides from the angry -thou-shall-not-critize-the-holy-arnhem-map mob*




Beast of War

Born to kill

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28th May 2003

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#34 16 years ago

Black WarshipProblem in this community is clear.

1st side like fragfestmaps (Unreal Tournement style). Make a small map, lots weapons and let everybody kill eachother a much as possible. (Berlin/Zilona Gora)

Most of them will be playing HL2 in a few days......bye bye and good riddance. ( they will be back for BF2 though :( )

@Donitz :

Any Arnhem map that has the allies first having to fight to get that bridge in the first place is a good Arnhem map. I'd rather have them fight all the way from the landing zones to the bridge, but that is obviously not possible since the map is too small.

I hate Arhnem map as it is now, Allies miraculously in position already, shooting german vehicles on the bridge asif it were a fancy fare attraction.

Allies should have to fight to secure that bridge in the first place ( wich is in German hands ) and there is a probability they fail at achieving that. Because that is what the real allies faced. And when they have it, they should be very hard pressed not to lose it again.

I think you are trying to do that and that is great. Make a map that will cause those two unrealistic Arnhem maps dissapear. ;)




Horrible Tank Hunter

BOOM!!!

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16th September 2004

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#35 16 years ago
Beast of WarMost of them will be playing HL2 in a few days......bye bye and good riddance. ( they will be back for BF2 though :( )

dont worry beast ill still be zig zagging twards your tank with satchel in hand after the HL2 release... Forgotten Hope is too good to abandon and i still havent purchased a vid card worthy of HL2 (or Forgotten Hope for that matter) :D




Beast of War

Born to kill

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28th May 2003

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#36 16 years ago
Horrible Tank Hunterdont worry beast ill still be zig zagging twards your tank with satchel in hand after the HL2 release... Forgotten Hope is too good to abandon and i still havent purchased a vid card worthy of HL2 (or Forgotten Hope for that matter) :D

Then i trust the devs to one day make tanks realistic, so this will be your fate ( and this is only the MG damage ;) )

tankdamage2.jpg

tankdamage.jpg




UTHER

ARTE ET MARTE

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5th December 2003

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#37 16 years ago

I was just woundering about this ticket bleeding issue, do we have to have it that one side needs to lose tickets just because of how many flags they have. Could we just not bleed the tickets as and when people lose there lives. For example the Geramns have proportianaly more tickets than the British to start with to represent there greater numbers on the ground. This way i think the fight would truly represent what a slogging match it actualy was. And the flag still represent tacticval importance cos the more flags you own the more spawn points you have and so can surround your enemy.




Skipster

I live on Gaming Forums

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29th July 2004

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#38 16 years ago
Beast of WarThen i trust the devs to one day make tanks realistic, so this will be your fate ( and this is only the MG damage ;) ) tankdamage2.jpg tankdamage.jpg

Heh, the devs can do whatever you want to tanks, and you will never see that. I've never seen that many infantry grouped together like that :D




=Boche Buster=

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1st May 2003

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#39 16 years ago

I'm the prick that Piat's the Puma thats managed to get past all those wrecks on the bridge - I usually hide at the 2nd flag from the top, because they go for that one when in a tank.

The no2 takes care of any infantry..




Ace114

I don't spend enough time here

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12th November 2004

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#40 16 years ago

I like your ideas Donitz, I think it would make for an awsome Arnhem battle. Myself on Arnhem, I am usually the idiot sitting on the 6pdr at the end of the bridge looking a stunned mullet waiting for anything to pass. :D