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Kämpfer

I take what n0e says way too seriously

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27th April 2003

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#111 16 years ago

There were at least three plans for the actual campaign: the on ethat was executed, another one by General Marcks, who was killed during the fighting in Normandy in 1944 and a third one by General Paulus. Yep, exactly: Stalingrad-Paulus, he was the Quarter Master (translation?, Quartiermeister in German, the chief of logistics) by then in 1941.

Marcks' plan suggested an attack in the Ukraine and an advance to Rostov-on-Don, then a turn in attack direction by 90° towards Moscow - it would have become the largest (maybe the greatest? ;) ) encirclement battle in history. The Wehrmacht would have operated in a similar way to the "Sichelschnitt plan" of 1940, where one active attacking wing cut through the front, penetrated deep into enemy territory and afterwards pressed the enemy troops against the passive wing that basically would have acted as an anvil.

If I am thinking of the same thing as you are I believe they called it Super Cannae from the encirclement battle of Cannae done by Hannibal Barca in second Punic Wars? And I am interested about this, did they expect to weak the central and northern fronts to accomplish this? Because in reality the southern front did advance to Rostov-on-Don in I believe October 1941 but had to fall back behind the Mius River because of a counterattack by Timoshenko(Hitler was furious and this led to the temporary removal of Richtofen-no idea on spelling). So the forces they were alloted in reality was hardly enough. I guess that is why it was just a plan :nodding:

Hitler denied this plan as too complicated. He also denied Paulus' plan to would have foreseen a halt around Smolensk to rebuild the railroad lines and generally get logistics back in order.

Actually the Germans did stop just a little East of Smolensk and for nearly one and a half monthes. In which time they could had advanced to Moscow and captured it before the winter.

But you're right, the Russian counter-offensives of winter 1941 were useless from a strategic point of view. I believe that it the Russian High Command had used a fighting style similar to the Wehrmacht (massive armored attack on one point of the front, breakthrough and spreading out into the hinterland to destroy enemy military infrastructure) in winter of '41, the Wehrmacht could have been de facto defeated by February of 1942.

The German troops were exhausted from six months of non-stop fighting, their tanks were almost useless because of the weather, their weapons and their vehicles froze in, they had no winter uniforms and so on. With one concentrated strike, IMHO the Russians could have turned this fighting army into a running army. There were signs of discipline loss in the Wehrmacht in winter '41.

Actually the Russians did not have the proper communications, reserves, and transportation to advance much farther than they did the in Winter offensives. There is really no way the Germans could have been defeated in Winter 1941/42 for these reasons, battered but not put into a mass retreat. They also did not support their attacks conducted, for example Vlasov's 2nd Shock Army that counterattacked at Leningrad was encircled after it had broken through the front without proper support and was utterly destroyed. Vlasov even came to the German side and raised a small German army of Russians.

Just my two cents, nice argument going on :)




Kämpfer

I take what n0e says way too seriously

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#112 16 years ago
TugeIf 300 million people country can succesfully use their soldiers as humanwaves, what would happen if you piss off chineses? :eek: :fistpunch:

Well its a bit different now adays because of ratio of population. Germany had ~60million and was facing ~300 million USSR and "partially" facing the even larger population of the Allies also.

In the case of if the USA attacked China(though this is not what you exactly said) atleast the Americans are only outnumbered three to one.




MelanchOli

Dread thinks I'm a special person

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31st March 2004

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#113 16 years ago
KämpferWell I still think that the Germans came quite close to defeating (and as I said before defeating does not necessarily mean to conquer, the USSR could have collapsed). There are not many obstacles between the Volga and Urals ;)

Well, yes - the Germans never again came closer to getting Russia to collapse than they came to in 1941. The sheer fact that they didn't make it by then leads me to the conclusion they wouldn't have made it at any other point of time.

But in fact the Russian campaign was not lost in July or August of 1941. The attack was doomed from its very start, I think. The German army was way too weak to conquer Russia. According to a source of mine, the Wehrmacht had Diesel reserves enough for one month of war!

And if they had sucessfully conquered Russia to the Volga, they would have been successfully cut off from the oil, a token amount of their population, and a large amount of their industry. This also would have had a huge amount of political effects also and probably would have led to Persia and Spain joining the Axis side.

Yes, and that was exactly what the Caucasus offensive of 1942 was supposed to do. The attack to conquer the Crimea and the Volga line up to Stalingrad was aimed at isolating the Caucasus and allow its safe conquest.

So the general strategy of 1942 was basically sound. It did not work, as we know - for the simple reason that the Wehrmacht was not mobile enough, had not enough forces to conquer an area this large and there was an overall lack of petrol. Ah yes, and the fact that Hitler did not know when he would have needed to slow down or even cancel the attack on Stalingrad.

There were at least three plans for the actual campaign: the on ethat was executed, another one by General Marcks, who was killed during the fighting in Normandy in 1944 and a third one by General Paulus. Yep, exactly: Stalingrad-Paulus, he was the Quarter Master (translation?, Quartiermeister in German, the chief of logistics) by then in 1941.

Marcks' plan suggested an attack in the Ukraine and an advance to Rostov-on-Don, then a turn in attack direction by 90° towards Moscow - it would have become the largest (maybe the greatest? ;) ) encirclement battle in history. The Wehrmacht would have operated in a similar way to the "Sichelschnitt plan" of 1940, where one active attacking wing cut through the front, penetrated deep into enemy territory and afterwards pressed the enemy troops against the passive wing that basically would have acted as an anvil.

If I am thinking of the same thing as you are I believe they called it Super Cannae from the encirclement battle of Cannae done by Hannibal Barca in second Punic Wars? And I am interested about this, did they expect to weak the central and northern fronts to accomplish this? Because in reality the southern front did advance to Rostov-on-Don in I believe October 1941 but had to fall back behind the Mius River because of a counterattack by Timoshenko (Hitler was furious and this led to the temporary removal of Richtofen-no idea on spelling). So the forces they were alloted in reality was hardly enough. I guess that is why it was just a plan :nodding:

I don't know how much they really planned on this one since it was just General Marcks' idea. The plan was extremely bold and courageous. If it had worked better than the plan of Barbarossa, nobody can really say.

And there was no chance of Marcks' plan being executed in the first place. Hitler hated Marcks - and therefore that had to be the end of this idea.

@retreat of German troops from Rostov-on-Don: According to my clever book, it was in late November of 1941 that the IIIrd Panzerkorps took Rostov. The town was heavily mined and fiercely defended by Russian troops. Even more, the Russian performed a determined counter-attack over the Don.

As a result, von Rundstedt (Supreme Commander of Heeresgruppe Süd / Army Group South) ordered to retreat behind the Mius as he considered his army's situation as too dangerous. This was the first time of entire German army retreating, it made Hitler furious and as a result, von Rundstedt (one of the best generals in the Wehrmacht at all) was dismissed. As a side note, his successor as commander of Heeresgruppe Süd, von Reichenau, had to do exactly what von Rundstedt had done: retreat behind the Mius. But still, von Rundstedt was not put back into his former position.

FYI: The name is Wolfram von Richthofen - he was in fact related to the Red Baron (his son or cousin, I believe). At the time he was commander of the VIII. Fliegerkorps (air group?) for Heeresgruppe Mitte (Army Group Center).

Hitler denied this plan as too complicated. He also denied Paulus' plan to would have foreseen a halt around Smolensk to rebuild the railroad lines and generally get logistics back in order.

Actually the Germans did stop just a little East of Smolensk and for nearly one and a half monthes. In which time they could had advanced to Moscow and captured it before the winter.

Yes and no. The difference was that Paulus had planned to stop there for a while to get the Wehrmacht back into state - repair tanks, re-enforce infantry, re-establish railway connections and the like. The stop that happened was not only unplanned, but actually counter-productive.

As it were, the attack on Moscow always had to be delayed for an enemy army either to the left or the right wing of Heeresgruppe Mitte (Army Group Center) that had to be defeated.

The actual stop of Heeresgruppe Mitte near Smolensk you are talking about had to do with the huge encirclement battles of Kiew and Uman. HG Mitte had advanced way further than the Army Groups on either side of it. And since Hitler had decided to conquer the Ukraine first and Moscow later, Panzergruppe Guderian (consisting of several armored korps) was ordered to make a sweep on their right wing and charge into the Russian armies' backs. And by the time the battles of Kiev and Uman were over, the chance to charge to Moscow directly were over, since the town again had troops to defend.

But you're right, the Russian counter-offensives of winter 1941 were useless from a strategic point of view. I believe that it the Russian High Command had used a fighting style similar to the Wehrmacht (massive armored attack on one point of the front, breakthrough and spreading out into the hinterland to destroy enemy military infrastructure) in winter of '41, the Wehrmacht could have been de facto defeated by February of 1942.

The German troops were exhausted from six months of non-stop fighting, their tanks were almost useless because of the weather, their weapons and their vehicles froze in, they had no winter uniforms and so on. With one concentrated strike, IMHO the Russians could have turned this fighting army into a running army. There were signs of discipline loss in the Wehrmacht in winter '41.

Actually the Russians did not have the proper communications, reserves, and transportation to advance much farther than they did the in Winter offensives. There is really no way the Germans could have been defeated in Winter 1941/42 for these reasons, battered but not put into a mass retreat. They also did not support their attacks conducted, for example Vlasov's 2nd Shock Army that counterattacked at Leningrad was encircled after it had broken through the front without proper support and was utterly destroyed. Vlasov even came to the German side and raised a small German army of Russians.

Honestly, I don't know enough about Russian infrastructure during winter 1941 / 1942 to judge this. But you are right in the point that Russia did not support her attacks correctly.

The Russian Supreme Command underestimated the Wehrmacht, just like the Wehrmacht had underestimated Russia. The Russian counter-offensives of winter 1941 were actually planless, they attacked everywhere without a tactical priority. They wouldn't even have needed to attack very far, just cut the Germans' most advanced positions. IMHO, the Russians would have been able to encircle large parts of the Wehrmacht that was not allowed to retreat anyway - by order of Adolf Hitler himself.

Just my two cents, nice argument going on :)

Thanks, I like this one quite as well. ;)




Kämpfer

I take what n0e says way too seriously

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#114 16 years ago

FYI: The name is Wolfram von Richthofen - he was in fact related to the Red Baron (his son or cousin, I believe). At the time he was commander of the VIII. Fliegerkorps (air group?) for Heeresgruppe Mitte (Army Group Center).

I got Richthofen and Rundstedt confused. Whoops.

The actual stop of Heeresgruppe Mitte near Smolensk you are talking about had to do with the huge encirclement battles of Kiew and Uman. HG Mitte had advanced way further than the Army Groups on either side of it. And since Hitler had decided to conquer the Ukraine first and Moscow later, Panzergruppe Guderian (consisting of several armored korps) was ordered to make a sweep on their right wing and charge into the Russian armies' backs. And by the time the battles of Kiev and Uman were over, the chance to charge to Moscow directly were over, since the town again had troops to defend.

Yes, I knew that. It would have been a gamble, advancing on Moscow without a secure flank. But then again they could have guaranteed either Moscow or the Ukraine, I would have taken Moscow and then the Ukraine in Spring '42.

The Russian Supreme Command underestimated the Wehrmacht, just like the Wehrmacht had underestimated Russia. The Russian counter-offensives of winter 1941 were actually planless, they attacked everywhere without a tactical priority. They wouldn't even have needed to attack very far, just cut the Germans' most advanced positions. IMHO, the Russians would have been able to encircle large parts of the Wehrmacht that was not allowed to retreat anyway - by order of Adolf Hitler himself.

I would not call them planless, more like their objectives were too large. I also agree the Russians could have encircled large amounts of Wehrmacht troops, especially Hoth and Guderians force's north and south of Moscow respectively, had they not taken the "extreme measures" of retreating back east of Smolensk with upwards of one hundred miles in ten days. A proof of this is the Demjansk pocket, 100.000 strong encircled!




BAM

I pretend I'm cooler than AzH

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27th April 2003

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#115 16 years ago
'[CDCGreywolf1']Does anybody know what the hell I'm talking about? Does anyone know of the battle at Eban Emaul? The German glider attack on the Belgian fortress (just use tweaked Brits ;) ) so the Germans would be able to launch their Blitzkreig into Belgium...the most high-tech fortress in the world...ok w/e :)

yes we know it have already been suggested a couple of hundred times in this forum ;)




Dee-Jaý

Always 1 point ahead of you

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17th February 2004

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#116 16 years ago

Ok, I rarely visit this place anymore and I wasn´t prepared to read all the posts in this thread. Yet that dosn´t stop me from posting my some favorite scenarios. -"D-Day Airborne Invasion" based on Band of Brothers or CoD/MoH:SH. -"Pegasus Bridge" based on CoD. -"Siege of Bastogne" with plenty of Foxhole and trenches in a thick forest. -"Monte Cassino" firce uphill combat for the ruins of Monte Cassino. -"Berlin" with Reichstag and maybe some more Tankcombat. -Any map that combines trenches, Infantrie and Artillery. PS: Basing a Map on a popular scenario and inserting features and symbols people recognise really improve the atmosphere a lot !




Artie Bucco

Guey>Tio(a)

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27th April 2003

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#117 16 years ago

I have had a map dea that i have thought of for a while. One day i was thinking what map can play like a Mediterranean Midway. After some research the Siege of Malta would be intresting. The islands is under British control with Axis bases and it contains several Seafires flow off carriers in the Area. The Brits will have 2 Aircraft carriers a containing Martlets (Wildcats), Sea Hurricanes and Swordfishes, 2 destoryers and 2-3 liberty ships. Germans will start with several U-Boats and two-three destoryers, several E-Boats as well. The Germans will also have an Airbase that will contain. 1 FW 190, 2 Bf 109s, 1 JU88 and an He 115.




MelanchOli

Dread thinks I'm a special person

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31st March 2004

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#118 16 years ago

KämpferFYI: The name is Wolfram von Richthofen - he was in fact related to the Red Baron (his son or cousin, I believe). At the time he was commander of the VIII. Fliegerkorps (air group?) for Heeresgruppe Mitte (Army Group Center).

I got Richthofen and Rundstedt confused. Whoops.

Well, there were quite a lot of people involved in WW2, weren't they? ;-)

The actual stop of Heeresgruppe Mitte near Smolensk you are talking about had to do with the huge encirclement battles of Kiew and Uman. HG Mitte had advanced way further than the Army Groups on either side of it. And since Hitler had decided to conquer the Ukraine first and Moscow later, Panzergruppe Guderian (consisting of several armored korps) was ordered to make a sweep on their right wing and charge into the Russian armies' backs. And by the time the battles of Kiev and Uman were over, the chance to charge to Moscow directly were over, since the town again had troops to defend.

Yes, I knew that. It would have been a gamble, advancing on Moscow without a secure flank. But then again they could have guaranteed either Moscow or the Ukraine, I would have taken Moscow and then the Ukraine in Spring '42.

If that would've worked out is at everybody's guess. First of all, not even the advance on Moscow would have been guaranteed to work out, secondly - leading a winter war along a front from East Poland to Moscow against Russia? :uhm: I don't think that would have gone well. Even if the Wehrmacht had taken Leningrad in the first place.

The Russian Supreme Command underestimated the Wehrmacht, just like the Wehrmacht had underestimated Russia. The Russian counter-offensives of winter 1941 were actually planless, they attacked everywhere without a tactical priority. They wouldn't even have needed to attack very far, just cut the Germans' most advanced positions. IMHO, the Russians would have been able to encircle large parts of the Wehrmacht that was not allowed to retreat anyway - by order of Adolf Hitler himself.

I would not call them planless, more like their objectives were too large. I also agree the Russians could have encircled large amounts of Wehrmacht troops, especially Hoth and Guderians force's north and south of Moscow respectively, had they not taken the "extreme measures" of retreating back east of Smolensk with upwards of one hundred miles in ten days. A proof of this is the Demjansk pocket, 100.000 strong encircled!

Well yes, the objectives maybe were too large, but that shines a bad light on the Russian generals overall, I guess. A good general knows what's possible given the state of his troops, weather and supplies conditions etc - and he knows how to explain to his superiors if some things just can't be done. Or he can find ways how to make impossible tasks possible.

There are many examples of the Wehrmacht conquering enemy positions that were considered invulnerable. But this is only possible if you've got a general with cleverness and wit who's able to quickly adapt to a certain situation and make best results out of it. Names like Rommel or von Manstein come to mind in that respect.




tvih

The Village Idiot from Hell

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29th December 2003

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#119 16 years ago
Artie BuccoThe Brits will have 2 Aircraft carriers a containing Martlets (Wildcats), Sea Hurricanes and Swordfishes, 2 destoryers and 2-3 liberty ships. Germans will start with several U-Boats and two-three destoryers, several E-Boats as well. The Germans will also have an Airbase that will contain. 1 FW 190, 2 Bf 109s, 1 JU88 and an He 115.

One word: lagfest :cool:




ManiK

Dance the dance of life!

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10th November 2003

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#120 16 years ago

Battle of the Scheldt

Battle of Ortona

And Juno Beach (3 Canuck maps Right there)

and for BoW to stop saying bunnyhoppers as if everybody does it