Is the mod becoming too spray 'n' pray-oriented? -1 reply

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Solo4114

Scoundrel Extraordinaire

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16th September 2002

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#1 13 years ago

When I first came to this mod, I loved it because it did two things:

1.) It made the bolt action rifles actually useful. (IE: high damage, useful but not unbalanced ROF, etc.)

2.) It made spray 'n' pray weaponry something you had to use in really close quarters, or that you had to use in controlled bursts. Or being prone with an LMG.

That was 0.5. Now, 0.5 had plenty of other problems that needed fixing, most of which were fixed. But in 0.61 and now in 0.65, it appears something has changed. More and more people use spray 'n' pray weapons and the weapons are plenty effective, even at range. Rifles seem considerably weaker now, to the point of being (unless you're at extreme range or have a semi-auto one) sort of a "why bother" weapon.

To me, this is a BIG problem. The flavor of 0.5 infantry combat felt to me like what I figured the war was really like -- dominated by rifle combat and mostly bolt actions at that. Sure, you saw an SMG now and then, but mostly, the rifles were the way to go.

I'm troubled by the new direction of the mod. It's not as much fun on infantry maps anymore and infantry combat in general is losing its charm to me. The vehicles and such are fun, but come on, infantry is what we all start and finish with.

I'm doing this poll just to guage how people feel about SMGs and LMGs being overused as spray 'n' pray weapons, and the decline in the use of rifles.




lumpeh

FH Groupie

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25th September 2003

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#2 13 years ago

I havent had this problem so far, i've done over plenty of SMG'ers with my one shot kill rifle. If they're well entrenching, a rifle grenade sorts em out. I think lag & packetloss attribute to some of your troubles though. If you aint got the hardware to take em on, hold back untill someone comes along that does and support them in the fight.




ww2freak

Ingame name: Major.

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27th April 2003

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#3 13 years ago

I agree. SMG range should be reduced to discourage their massive use. It's an Unreal Tournament Tard Paradise out there. Too arcadey.




Solo4114

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16th September 2002

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#4 13 years ago

Lumpeh, but that's just it. Back in 0.5, I didn't have to worry. I had an even chance and I'm running on identical hardware. What changed is the balance between the two weapons which, in my opinion, has tilted considerably in favor of the SMG. There is, quite simply, no practical downside to the SMG.

If you hit an enemy at long range, it does just as much damage as up close.

It has a high rate of fire.

It's not worthlessly inaccurate.

Due to ANY (well, maybe not the MP18) SMG's high rate of fire, it doesn't really matter how accurate the weapon is. You WILL put enough lead into the air to kill the enemy.

Reduced ammo capacities, random clip sizes, etc. don't matter so much when you've got plenty of ammo boxes lying around.

And finally, even assuming that the rifle IS useful over long range, there aren't that many maps where you actually can take advantage of this. Especially not in the infantry maps where it's basically all run 'n' gun with an SMG.

Is it possible to kill SMGers? Sure. I've never said otherwise. But, look at what you see when you play the mod. People don't take classes with rifles to use the rifle. They take classes with rifles to use whatever other stuff the rifle comes with. IE: panzerfaust, satchels, (back in 0.61) rifle nade. But if they could have an SMG with those weapons, they'd absolutely take one. Try playing Valirisk some time. Tell me how many bazooka troopers you see and then compare that to how many tank hunters you see.

Put simply, I see very few people who play a rifle-using class FOR the rifle itself. Rifles as infantry weapons are on the drop and SMGs or even LMGs up close are on the rise.

It wasn't always this way, either. Back in 0.5, rifles were just as useful as SMGs, but infantry combat was far more "rock, paper, scissors". Yes, a rifle could kill in one hit, but you had to land that hit and if an SMG player got in close, you were toast. But, if you got that hit, game over. It was balanced and fun. And you saw some real variety on the battlefield, at least as far as small arms went. That started changing in 0.61 and is becoming even less the case with 0.65. I think it's a problem not because I can't kill an SMGer (I can and do), but because it makes the game less fun when EVERYONE is using an SMG.

And yes, I know the russians had "OMG!! ENTIRE DIVISIONS!!!" with the PPSh or whatever. But on average, throughout the war, that wasn't true. The rifle was the dominant infantry weapon. I'd like to see this mod move back to that.




MR.X`

I'm too cool to Post

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30th April 2004

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#5 13 years ago

Yes, this is bothering me quite a bit as well.

It does, however, depend on the map or armies being simulated. There are far more people willing to take a PPSh41 into combat than an MP40 or Stein Mk.2. The problem is quite easily fixed, just add more crosshair bloom to the weapons. XWW2 did this, and it does work well. But I am in no way saying that the bloom should be as large for rifles.

The as soon as you crouch down for a few seconds, all crosshairs will totally close up. This is just not realistic, sorry to say. You could be the steadiest shot in the entire war, yet miss because you forgot to clean the barrel, or there were imperfections in the powder.

All in all, rifles should not be railgun accurate as well. The idea that you can hold a heavy, fully loaded, full sized rifle completly still is laughable.




Dee-Jaý

Always 1 point ahead of you

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17th February 2004

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#6 13 years ago

SMGs are more usefull then they were before.

But then again, most SMGs (except for the Ppsh-41) are only effective up to medium range. Above that, rifles have the edge.

And since most combat in FH is over great distances you always find the majority of people using rifles.

I don´t see the SMGs themselves being much of an issue, but I think the hit-boxes should do more damage (arm/leg only do 50%).




Nurenig

FH Xlite

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26th December 2003

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#7 13 years ago

Yea this mod has gone to shit, I want my uber Rifles back, They owned. The Drop on Rifles is to much if you ask me




MR.X`

I'm too cool to Post

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30th April 2004

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#8 13 years ago

The PPSh41 is too accurate. Not because of quality of design or anything, but weight. That was a very large SMG, larger than many carbines of the era, and heavy too.

The Stein just sucks. Its inaccurate, and by the time you hit someone, he just says ouch and shoots you with his SMG.

The MP18 is the same story as the Stein. It sucks. And so would a Type 100 if it was ever included.

The Thompson is a beast. .45 ACP is a big round, lots of power there. Yet it too was inaccurate due to design and weight.

The M1 Grease Gun is, well, ok. It is too accurate given its low build quality. However, the size of .45 ACP made up for its inaccuracy and low rate of fire.

The MP40 is in the same class as the M1 Greasegun in my opinion.

Realize that SMGs were rare, given to specal units, tankers, and officers only.

My thoughts are, if the range of tanks and artillery are scaled down, why should the SMG be given full range? The PPSh was effective up to 200 meters, which is still rifle combat in most situations.

The general cure until a fix is just to play smart. Dont assault a house with a bolt action rifle. Furthermore, if you must do so, at least toss a grenade in.




[tR]Mad Mac

Aerospace Engineering FTW!

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19th May 2004

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#9 13 years ago

Your poll is biased. The smg crosshairs should be a bit wider, but its not that big of a deal, IMHO. I always use a rifle, and I dont have any trouble with infantry combat. Find good cover and its not a big problem.




vesseli

Another Finnish madman

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23rd June 2004

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#10 13 years ago

Agreed, Solo.