Solo4114 - How far away the target is - How many rounds hit the target - What would've happened if the guy was running, jumping, diving, etc. while firing at a target that's also moving.
1. How far away? Who fires full auto on long range? If he would have used small bursts he would have hit even on longer ranges. PPSH was quite good - up to 200m effective combat range. And with a bolt-action rifle you won't hit anything as well when just pulling the trigger. The recoil showed that aiming wasn't changed too much. Only a little correction here and there. I bet a person of 25m would be dozen times dead. And I also bet that out of 50 rounds all of them were in a 25cm radius. 2. Depending on where the target is. On 25m range - more than 90%. Fired MP2 on 25m - 12 shots with 3 bursts 119 points. So only one in the 9 ;) 3. Rifle or SMG - you will hit shit while jumping and diving. But on short range you will stand a better chance with an smg for sure! And while running - if not too fast you hit some rounds. Tried it already with a MP2 (Uzi),G36 and G3. It's not too difficult. Biggest problem is not to fall over your own feet though... and when not going to aim down the sight but shoot out of the hip - you don't hit to well but with the rof of PPSH you should be able to play gravedigger up to 50m easily...
I'm with you in terms of the discussions of how the SMGs do perform in close range. Just by sheer volume of fire, you're bound to hit at least a few times and really, all you need is one bullet to the brain to do the job. Anyway, I think we can debate the issues of performance ad nauseum, but Lobo's right -- the real issue is availability. There may still be issues with performance, but the availability magnifies this drastically.
As far as the class restrictions argument goes, I don't think it'd necessarily be a bad thing. Sure the people who get an SMG will own in close quarters and those who don't have one will lose in close quarters when up against an SMG user. But that's no different from what we have now. The only difference now is that EVERYONE has an SMG in close quarters if they want one.
But let's say we restrict them in some way. Maybe everyone spawns with a basic rifle assault kit, and there are SMG, LMG, and AT/Engineer pickup kits available to round out the platoon. Maybe when you click "assault", there's a % chance that you'll get an SMG. Or maybe you just say "there can only be X number of officers on this map" or let servers define how many of each class there can be in class selection. What would the effect be on actual gameplay?
People would be killed more often and kill more often by/with rifles than any other weapon. In close quarters, you'd be FAR more likely to meet someone with a rifle than an SMG, so folks would get used to close quarters rifle fights where necessary (or they'd switch to their pistol or whatever). Yes, the guy with the SMG would own in close, but hey, that's what they're for. Right now, the guy with the FG42 owns in pretty much any infantry fight, but I don't see people complaining about that on Berlin much. Do you? It's a pickup kit and people accept that. If SMGs were treated this way, I think folks would accept that too. Especially if you told them WHY the change was made (IE: not everyone had access to an SMG in the war, and the mod is less fun when everyone does have access to it).
I don't think you can make the rifle classes that much more useful either, at least against infantry. Unless you're on a map with a lot of tanks, or a lot of open space, you won't find people taking rifles. They'll take LMGs or SMGs. Even if the choice is for the officer class, you'll just have 20 officers running around per team. If you give people the ability to choose an SMG, they will choose an SMG for all but long range fighting or tank killing.
As for the argument about the U.S. having an advantage, that's true, but it was true during the war as well. Some of this could be adjusted by possibly speeding up the bolt cycling time (though it's pretty quick on all the rifles as is), but hey, the U.S. gets a gimpy LMG as compared to the MG34 or 42. That's life. I don't see that as a huge issue, at least no moreso than it is currently.
To my way of thinking, there's basically three solutions to availability:
1.) Hard and fast class limits at the selection screen. Numbers are determined server-side, or at least can be determined server side. (IE: out of 26 players, only 4 can be SMG users per team). Probably the least popular way to do it, but it'd work.
2.) Random spawns. No more SMG or rifle class. You pick your general role (assault, defense, support, demolitions, scouting) and you get a random chance to get a bunch of weapons. Also not that popular probably, but better than #1.
3.) Server-definable RFAs per map that have all non-rifleman kits as pickups. Everyone spawns as a rifleman, but you can grab non-standard gear at the main base. Probably the best solution, given how people react to pickup kits in general right now. The accept this for sniper rifles, panzerschrek kits, and "cool" weapons (IE: scoped Stg44, FG42, etc.). I think they'd accept it for overall loadouts.
And here's the IDEAL alternative:
Do two setups for all maps. One is the default setup (IE: no restrictions of any kind), and the other is the "Historical Availability" setup. Let servers choose rather than dictate how the mod will be played. Everyone wins.
Solo4114 To my way of thinking, there's basically three solutions to availability: 1.) Hard and fast class limits at the selection screen. Numbers are determined server-side, or at least can be determined server side. (IE: out of 26 players, only 4 can be SMG users per team). Probably the least popular way to do it, but it'd work. 2.) Random spawns. No more SMG or rifle class. You pick your general role (assault, defense, support, demolitions, scouting) and you get a random chance to get a bunch of weapons. Also not that popular probably, but better than #1. 3.) Server-definable RFAs per map that have all non-rifleman kits as pickups. Everyone spawns as a rifleman, but you can grab non-standard gear at the main base. Probably the best solution, given how people react to pickup kits in general right now. The accept this for sniper rifles, panzerschrek kits, and "cool" weapons (IE: scoped Stg44, FG42, etc.). I think they'd accept it for overall loadouts.
"solution 1 and 2" Trys to nearly eliminate the smg from the game altogether. Considering how many people use smgs now, this forum would soon be flooded with. Why did u take all the smg's away threads. "solution 3" will up the number of base campers exponintally. Kinda like when those 3 or 4 losers wait for that tank or plane to spawn. only this time it'll be half the team waitng for a weapon with a good rate of fire. trying to force people into rifles ain't the way to go. this is "Forgotten Hope" not "Total Rifle Domination"
Jetro "trying to force people into rifles ain't the way to go. this is "Forgotten Hope" not "Total Rifle Domination"
True, but when you downloaded this mod you probably heard it was a "realism" mod. So full well knowing this YOU downloaded this mod. WWII was dominated by gulp, RIFLES. Its not that much of a huge step to ask that in reflection of this the majority of players use rifles. Not all, but the majority.
Yes and In World War 2 they didnt have computers and they were getting shot at for real...i mean do you really want to sacrifice gameplay so you can feel as if...through your computer your a soldier in WW2..i know i don't. Keeping realism is good but to the point of making everybody Rifleman i mean cmon.It just blows.
FH is a realism mod, period. If i would want to spray super-dupper machine guns, i would play DC or whatever. Most FH players seek exactly the "ww2 soldier feeling" and that should be offered.
If people want to whine that they can't have any and every toy they want in the game now, let 'em. This is a realism mod or at the very least an historical accuracy mod.
How realistic or historically accurate is it when, on a round of Foy, at least half the Allied team is packing greaseguns? It's not. Plain and simple.
The ideas I proposed offer a chance to return the game to a more historical feel. And you know, we can bring up the argument about "Well in real war you can't respawn and you feel pain, etc." ad nauseum. It's a valid point for things like, for example, making the flight code the way it was in 0.61. But that was more an issue about how the game scales and what the engine permits.
In this case, there's nothing stopping us from implementing a change in class loadouts and such. And it's hardly a step towards hooking up pain sensors and hurting or killing people when they get shot in-game. That's what we call a reductio ad absurdum.
As far as "kit campers" goes, we don't see it all that much currently. Granted, that's because there's usually at least two or three options for a rapid fire weapon at the spawn, but trust me, the FG42 is THE weapon to have in this mod currently, yet I rarely see people camping for FG42 kits. Even if they were to camp, some servers at least have rules about this. Let the servers deal with it. The camping issue isn't or shouldn't be the concern of the devs. It's not the devs' responsibility to code things that stop smacktards. It's the server admins who should be handling them.
You'll also note that I said these should all be server side OPTIONS. Which would mean if you wanted to run a server with the more vanilla-like class loadouts that we currently have, great. Knock yourself out. But at least the OPTION would be there for servers to run the more historically accurate option.
And frankly, I doubt that switching to this would so severely detract from the fun of the game. Back in 0.5, hardly anyone took SMGs or LMGs, unless they were going to use them >GASP< as they were intended: namely for close quarters combat or for going prone somewhere and laying down a field of fire rather than trying to pick off individual targets. And you know what? Not too many people minded. In fact, I'd bet that a LOT of the veterans here came in at 0.5 and loved the mod back then. The mod's improved plenty since then, but it's not like it wasn't fun back when people were using mostly rifles. What might happen is that a lot of the people who came here from vanilla or DC and are used to spray 'n' pray rambo style gaming would get pissed. You know what? Let 'em. There's plenty of other options out there for that type of gameplay, but there aren't as many good options for gameplay that's DIFFERENT.
Right now, that's my problem with this mod. It feels less DIFFERENT than it used to. It used to feel a lot more unique and with its own character. But nowadays, infantry combat feels a lot like vanilla or DC. I don't know about you guys, but if that's what I wanted, I'd be playing vanilla or DC.
Anyway, if this stuff is coded as a server OPTION, I don't see what the big deal is. The servers will then decide how they want the game played: either with the current settings, or with the updated ones. If you're a member of a server community or a clan, you can go and vote on how that server runs things. But at least then we'd have the OPTION to do these things instead of dictating to both sides "THIS IS HOW THE GAME WILL BE PLAYED FROM HERE TO ETERNITY!!"