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FF|cihset

GF makes me horny

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4th May 2004

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#161 14 years ago
ArtieYou wouldn't just call off a battle right in the middle because of something that was happening elsewhere. If you're trying to say that the German armor/personnel was pulled out of Kursk in order to reinforce the southern front in Italy, that is just stupid.

What? Are you questioning the wisdom of Hitlers and his peers? :naughty:




Major Hartmann

Major Disinformation

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27th April 2003

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#162 14 years ago

The KV2 won't be able to stand a Tiger all alone, but it is able to survive one (or 2 if you are lucky) hits, what no other soviet tank of that period can hope for.




Kämpfer

I take what n0e says way too seriously

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27th April 2003

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#163 14 years ago

Artie:rolleyes:

The German 9th army was withdrawn because it had become obvious that it was trapped north of Kursk and that the operation was bound to fail. Anyways, the battle in the central and southern sectors continued and the Germans lost in both areas.

Operation Citadelle was called off on the 14th of July, the tenth day of the battle and the forces involved withdrew to their starting lines.




Kämpfer

I take what n0e says way too seriously

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27th April 2003

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#164 14 years ago

And here is another source that has an account of a German tanker talking of the possibility of spotting KVs(though not necessarily KV-2s) at Kursk, sounds like they atleast thought there were KVs hanging around at Kursk.

"We had been warned to expect resistance from pak and some tanks in static positions, also the possibility of a few independent brigades of the slower KV type." pg. 337 Barbasrossa, Alan Clark




Beast of War

Born to kill

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28th May 2003

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#165 14 years ago

KämpferAnd here is another source that has an account of a German tanker talking of the possibility of spotting KVs(though not necessarily KV-2s) at Kursk, sounds like they atleast thought there were KVs hanging around at Kursk.

"We had been warned to expect resistance from pak and some tanks in static positions, also the possibility of a few independent brigades of the slower KV type." pg. 337 Barbasrossa, Alan Clark

KV1 that is...... ?




Kämpfer

I take what n0e says way too seriously

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27th April 2003

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#166 14 years ago
Beast of WarKV1 that is...... ?

Yes, it could be one or the other or both. It does not specify.




Nishat

iN GaME NaMe: Desert Fox

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19th April 2004

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#167 14 years ago

BAHRRRG!!!!!!Another dark Russian map....I can never see anything!!! O well nice map otherwise




Sgt Saunders

Master of space and time

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29th September 2003

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#168 14 years ago
SacredLizardno *I* wouldn't call off a battle, and it *was* stupid for OKH.

Stupid to call off the attack? It was his one smart move. The Russians knew of the attack from a spy in OKH. Hitler delayed the original start date which gave the Russians still more time to prepare. The Russains had a VASTLY numerically superior force and an intensive in-depth defense. The Germans were depending on their wonder weapons the Tiger I and the Elephant/Ferdinands, both of which were failures. The German forces were being decimated until they went on to the defensive. Whether Manstein beleived he could have reached his objective is moot. He may have reached it, but would never have held it. I beileve it was wishful thinking on his part. The Germans were fought to a standstill and only by pulling back was total disaster averted. By this time in the war Germany could not fight a war of attrition with the Russians. They had neither the material or the troops while the Russians continued to poor in fresh units. Realize also that a German division of this time was ot the same as a division of say 1941. Hitler created his new divisions by stripping units from existing units. He had more divisions, but they were less effective.




Kämpfer

I take what n0e says way too seriously

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27th April 2003

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#169 14 years ago
schristi69Stupid to call off the attack? It was his one smart move. The Russians knew of the attack from a spy in OKH. Hitler delayed the original start date which gave the Russians still more time to prepare. The Russains had a VASTLY numerically superior force and an intensive in-depth defense. The Germans were depending on their wonder weapons the Tiger I and the Elephant/Ferdinands, both of which were failures. The German forces were being decimated until they went on to the defensive. Whether Manstein beleived he could have reached his objective is moot. He may have reached it, but would never have held it. I beileve it was wishful thinking on his part. The Germans were fought to a standstill and only by pulling back was total disaster averted. By this time in the war Germany could not fight a war of attrition with the Russians. They had neither the material or the troops while the Russians continued to poor in fresh units. Realize also that a German division of this time was ot the same as a division of say 1941. Hitler created his new divisions by stripping units from existing units. He had more divisions, but they were less effective.

Sure he called off the attack, after the damage was already done to his divisions. But the battle of Kursk damage to the divisions was not the troops(only 60,000 troops were lost during Citadelle a neglible number compared to all of the loses throughout 1943) but the loss of the armor.

Since they actually abandoned territory many of their tanks had to be left to the enemy. The Russians on the other hand was able to recover and repair most of their tanks lost during the battle. At the start of Kursk there was around 3,800 Russian tanks and by the 13th that number had dropped to a mere 1,500 but in early August the number as back up again at 2,750 even though they received no reinforcements.

I personally, and so do many others, believe the offensive should not have been halted. Even though the northern pincer was doing *unsatisfactory* the southern pincer was already facing the last Russian defensive line. But then again, I also think the offensive should never had started after late April as originally planned.