Modding maps server side - Wrong? -1 reply

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[SYN] hydraSlav

SYNERGY Member

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2nd October 2003

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#1 15 years ago

OK, lets first explain what this is. I am not talking about custom maps (which are downloaded separately). This is different Servers have the ability to modify a map on the server, without the clients (players) knowing about it. Then the player connects to the server, he thinks he is loading the official FH map, but in fact, the map is changed (not the whole map of course, but various bits of it, primaraly kits/vehicles/classes/etc). The client has no clue that the map is actually changed, cause the client did not do any explicit downloads, nor is it specified anywhere. So, the player loads Omaha beach, expecting to have 1 pickup sniper rifle kit, and instead, the map features spawnable sniper rifle for the allies! A player can load Berlin, expecting to have a regular battle that he is used to, and instead, the map features Tigers and paratroopers spawns. Or a player loads Storm, and expects allies not to have AT weapons, but in fact, they can all spawn with AT, with Bazookas and Satchels (dispite the fact that Armin removed that). This is what i mean by "server-side modding" of the maps. It's different from custom maps. I like custom maps. Custom maps have a different name and a player must willingly download the custom map (so the player will be aware that this is not the official FH map, and will be expecting to see changes). But these "server-side-modded maps" are presented as the official FH maps, cause the client doesn't download anything new, nor is the player aware that the map is changed (untill he starts noticing the changes). It is disturbing to know that the server admins can add/remove vehicles to their liking, offsetting the balance of the map. But what's outrageous is that these maps are presented as if they are official FH maps, cause the player isn't aware he is playing a changed map The purpose of this thread is two-fold. 1. To find the opinions of the community regarding these fakes, impersonating to be official FH maps. 2. To find what are the "legality/morality" issues of this in terms of copyright and stealing? Pretty much, the server takes someone's mod, changes it to thier liking, and then puts it back as if it was still the FH mod, yet now it's not officially done by FH. The players are fooled into playingf the server's mod, thinking that they are playing FH... but they are not. If there were humans involved, this would have been identity theft! I really need to know the Dev's take on this, please




-|DKS|- deathBOB

The BOB of Death

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3rd June 2004

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#2 15 years ago

Whats wrong with server side editing? Remember the bug with the japanese knee mortar? Remember not being able to play any pacific maps? Guess what fixed that: Server side editing. Is that wrong? No. Is it still an FH map? Yes, just weaked slightly.




Eglaerinion

Vault Dweller

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22nd September 2003

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#3 15 years ago

I don't see the problem as long as it is advertised in the chat/console or maybe even the server name I guess. Adding a sniper class to omaha beach maps is utterly retarded though.




Yossarian

Moose frots Obama

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28th March 2005

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#4 15 years ago

I think its good in moderation, I guess. Sometimes it can make for a fun time. I remember one server I played had paradrops onto omahabeach. Sure, it was lame and unrealistic, but it was just good old fashioned fun.




CrimeScene

The forums staffers think I'm Cool

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15th March 2005

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#5 15 years ago

I myself being one to server side mod maps,see nothing wrong in it,but the server should give some kind or message that there modded,mostly to get people on the server, I know some don't like change but how many times can you play the same map over and over? You never played a map that maybe a extra tiger or sheman would be nice? It just breaks things up a little, breath some new life into an old map. As far as the copie right thing if someone was to sell it or make a $ on it ya it would be a problom,but as I recall FH is a mod of BF42,the best thing I can tell you is if you don't like modded servers then just move on,I do agree there should be some kinda message to let you know it's modded though. CrimeScene




[SYN] hydraSlav

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2nd October 2003

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#6 15 years ago
-|DKS|- deathBOBWhats wrong with server side editing? Remember the bug with the japanese knee mortar? Remember not being able to play any pacific maps? Guess what fixed that: Server side editing. Is that wrong? No. Is it still an FH map? Yes, just weaked slightly.

Pacific maps were physically unplayable cause of the bug. Removing the cause of the bug (mortar) was a direct fix allowing to play a number of maps. Here, we are talking about servers adding/removing vehicles/kits/classes, not cause of any particular bugs, but simply because the server admin didn't like some vehicle, or wants more of that vehicle. These modifications offset the balance of the map, from the way FH devs meant for the map to be played. And they screw the "realistic" moniker FH has, cause now the admins can put Tigers/Jumbos in 1939 maps, or make everytank a flamethrower tank, etc, etc. And as i said, the players are not aware of the changes, cause the server doesn't inform them in any way. Players think they are playing an official map, but in fact they are not. You are saying that copyright doesn't apply here? Then why is it that when one mod uses the skins of another mod, the whole community gets up on the toes, but when a server takes a mod, remakes it, and releases it's own version as if it was official FH version then it doesn't apply.




sidtherat

Da Ya Think I'm Sexy?

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7th September 2004

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#7 15 years ago

i think you bit overreact - fh' realism has nothing to do with realism - it is a game. period

changing one unrealistic map into another unrealisic map means nothing to me - it can cause problem, when you focus tactics around one specific vechicle which was. removed.. it my be annoying, but then adapt and improve

nowhere is said that fh devs know best how the map should look like - in fact oryginal maps are sometimes unbalanced as hell - or have serious flaws [ticke bleed on certain maps] - with current fh relase rate [once per one/two months] it is better to fix these issues server side than to live with them

i'd gladly see battle isle without planes, but with few more mortars and spawnable, deployable HMG's - to make it pure inf carnage, or see the 1ton ju87 removed from some maps - form all of them in fact, replaced with something more fitting to reality, see battle of britain with decreased plane spawn times etc.. and thats the server side mods are for

ps. i agree with risk of fighting tiger on fall weis - but if the admin is stupid, his server soon will be forgotten

ps2. if player cant tell the oryginal from modded he as well dont need to know [and probably dont care] about this - noob cant tell stug from wespe...




NoCoolOnesLeft

My Blood Is Olive Drab

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19th November 2003

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#8 15 years ago

I've hardly played on custom modified servers, but when I do it's usually quite fun.

I remember playing on a BF1942 Omaha Beach server where the Americans had only Thompsons and M1 Garands, whilst the Germans had K98's and MP40's. In all honesty, it wasnt unbalanced at all and along with a few other modifications like taking out the tanks it was one of the best few rounds I played in a long time.

I'm all for modding maps, as long as they dont go over the top. Then again, some FH maps do need modifying quite a bit. Take Fall Wiess - 1939 as an example.




CrimeScene

The forums staffers think I'm Cool

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15th March 2005

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#9 15 years ago

There a 2 sides to this coin, 1. I have seen some clans (groups) do this for then to have the advantage,solution don't go there. 2. Some have done it to get more traffic on the server,all the while keeping it balanced,thus in turn becuse it was done right have alot of members and more then 1 server and or running diffrent games. I don't kow why you would be so mad about what someone does on the server there paying for, as far as remaking it,that would imply more then you can do server side copy right infringment is based on taking someone's creation and calling it yours, provided that they have it copyrighted,it has to be filed with and according in (in this case)international laws, saying or slapping a copy right on it means nothing with out the that,so maybe the approch here is they should at least ask the dev's if it would be cool with them if they did it. CrimeScene




Solo4114

Scoundrel Extraordinaire

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16th September 2002

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#10 15 years ago

I think there's nothing wrong with it. Especially if the map you're talking about is one that is, in it's native FH state, unbalanced or somehow problematic, or if you're fixing a bug.

IE: let's say on Goodwood someone decides to mod the map so that the StugIIIG that spawns is NOT the one with camo (the camo that blocks the gunsight and driver's view), but the normal StugIIIG. Is this problematic? Hardly.

Another example would be a map that's really unbalanced in some way, and the server decides to mod it. Or let's say someone wants to test out one method of class limits, adds pickup kits to the main bases, and has everyone spawn as a rifleman.

The bottom line is, if you like the modification, stick around and play. If you don't, just hop on to a different server. But there's no real need for outrage.

Now, as to the legal aspect of this, there IS no legal aspect, at least under U.S. copyright law. FH is a derivative work, legally speaking, and thus, the creators have no rights to the mod in and of itself (although they might have the right to use things they put INTO the mod elsewhere, like a render or something). So, a server modding maps is not in any way legally problematic.

Like I said, play if you like the change, leave if you don't. There's plenty of servers out there.