Neo Nazism In FH. -1 reply

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Strumtrupp

FH:STURMTRUPP4|BF2:HG_The Tank

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2nd January 2005

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#221 14 years ago

Some people really seem to be getting their info off movies and cartoons then from certified resources.

First thing to remember is that no matter what country/nationality people with power do bad things. Period.

I am in no way defending the actions of the germans in WW2! Just trying to set the facts straight.

Next Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe = NOT SS Most professional Soldiers had a code of conduct to what they did and what they don't do. Even opposing nation authors will tell you that. Problem was when the SS got in control. Like someone else said they were a buch of non-soldiers and bullies. (often turned collaborateurs after being take POW) It depended on your CO. If an order came in and he was a soldier the did nothing, if it was a SS or radical nazi officer he did.

There was no strategic bombing fleet in the Luftwaffe. As someone above correctly states there was a 4-engine bomber but the leaders did not want it. Presumably because it did not fit the blitzkrieg tactics just like carpet-bombing.

The Luftwaffe did not purposely target civilian targets. F.i. over Britain this was a Fuehererbefehl! Hitler did not want to anger the british and cause an all-out war by dropping bombs on civilians.

The Wehrmacht were just like other soldiers. Following orders and protecting their homeland, even if the truth was unknown to them. The (foolishly) followed orders to the end (f.i. see Rommel) Among these (dumb) sheep there were a few that dared think differently and tried to kill Hitler (some of the 45 attemts iirc). (I have a very critical view of soldiers in general but that is a subject for another topic)

Also if you say it is a "nazi" idiology then you can simply call others similar because it is not just the "nazi" but others often 180° opposed idiologies that did similar, because it was not the "name" but the actions. Both Nazis (Nationalsozialisten) and Communists did such. Just like Republicans and Socialists. Throughout the world we have had mass genocide by all kind of idiologies. Name one continent were hundred of thousands were not killed because they had the wrong skin color or wrong religion. A party could call itself the Peace and Love party and still be corrupt to the core. People have committed crimes beyond belief for ghostly-idiologies. And it is the small people that are often most fanatical and willing to fulfil the wishes of their leader... because the leader often does not have the guts to do so.

Communism might be about equality but in the end it, like other system, still has a weak spot called "humans".

@MrFancypants: Although I agree to an extent it is neither a solution and hypocritical (sp?). The problem is not the tags (heck all airplanes have swastikas on them) but the idiology. We could ban all the symbols we want and it would not change a thing. The Neos still parade down our streets, they just have different flags (the ones that are not banned).

We need to cut out the cancer and not treat its synthoms. People with SS or Hitler nick bother me but when they let out stupid remarks I hit the roof. If I could I would not only kick them but drive to their place and kick them in the balls as well. That not only goes for them but for anyone that pulls that crap.

I do believe that most neo voters are frustrated voters. (they should vote for some beer-party or something like that)

Choosing sides might not be your best option either. Often it is the case of one of two evils. Then what? Stay neutral but opposed to both? Then one side will take power. Then what? Then they start a war, then what? Then they tell you if you do not fight you are a traitor and a [insert opposing-idiology-demonization here] and causing the death of others... then what?

A, tis a tangled web.




MrFancypants Forum Admin

The Bad

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#222 14 years ago

Strumtrupp @MrFancypants: Although I agree to an extent it is neither a solution and hypocritical (sp?). The problem is not the tags (heck all airplanes have swastikas on them) but the idiology. We could ban all the symbols we want and it would not change a thing. The Neos still parade down our streets, they just have different flags (the ones that are not banned).

We need to cut out the cancer and not treat its synthoms. People with SS or Hitler nick bother me but when they let out stupid remarks I hit the roof. If I could I would not only kick them but drive to their place and kick them in the balls as well. That not only goes for them but for anyone that pulls that crap.

I do believe that most neo voters are frustrated voters. (they should vote for some beer-party or something like that)

Choosing sides might not be your best option either. Often it is the case of one of two evils. Then what? Stay neutral but opposed to both? Then one side will take power. Then what? Then they start a war, then what? Then they tell you if you do not fight you are a traitor and a [insert opposing-idiology-demonization here] and causing the death of others... then what?

A, tis a tangled web.

Well, don't understand exactly why what I wrote seems hypocritical to you. You are of course right that Neonazis will just find other symbols to unite under, but as I see it many young people are drawn to nationalism because they feel that these symbols, SS-runes, swastikas etc. are cool. Of course they may seem even more attractive when they are forbidden, but allowing them is not possible due to (German) laws and would make even less sense if you want to do something against Neonazism.

You are also right with saying that curing the disease at the source is more effective. I'd join you immediately in your quest to visit Neonazis and give them some brainactivityencouraging claps to the backs of their heads ;) But as this isn't really an option here I'd thought the best thing we could do is show those guys that we really don't like them. And this means picking a side. I don't want to force anyone to do this, it's just a suggestion (which seems logical to me, but that doesn't necessarily mean very much :) ). I hope that applied to a small community like this it won't lead to an all-out war.

To add some spice to this discussion, to everyone who thinks that SS-names are ok: Do you also think that calling yourself ""1stKKK-division:******killer" would also be a good name? This would of course be historical correct, as such people existed in the 40s and some of them probably fought in WWII. I know it's a strange comparison. But what you feel when you read such names in a game is probably what many people in Europe feel when they see names like "arischerSS-Held" on a server.




roterschnee

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#223 14 years ago
Al CaponeThe SS were Hitlers storm troops, a break away group from the SA.The SS were not recognized as German army and usualy did what they wanted.. The SS usualy did not co operate with the Wermacht, infact they did their own things such as carry out raids on villages, reprisals etc[/quote] Oh really? This is taken from the testimony of SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Paul Hausser at the International Military Tribunal (IMT) proceedings in Nuernberg.
HERR PELCKMANN: Was there a uniform or unified SS High Command during the war? To whom were the divisions subordinate during the war? HAUSER: A unified SS High Command did not exist during the war. The main office in Berlin was the leading administrative agency. All divisions of the Waffen-SS were incorporated into the Army and fought under the command and, in the final analysis, under the responsibility of the Army. I personally, in the 5 years and 6 months of the war, received orders only from the Armed Forces offices and agencies. HERR PELCKMANN: Did Heinrich Himmler have any influence on the divisions of the Waffen-SS, and if so, what influence did he have? HAUSER: The divisions which had been incorporated into the Army were subordinate to Heinrich Himmler only in matters dealing with personnel and replacements, with judicial questions and fundamental problems of organization.
Al Capone It was not until late war that they even had any artillery or armoured divisions.[/quote] The SS-Verfungstruppen (SS-VT) was the organisation that was later renamed the Waffen-SS and greatly expanded. [quote=SS Das Reich, Gregory L. Mattson (Page 29)]Towards the end of the 1930's the SS-VT established more units, including a Flak machine-gun battalion, a reconnaissance battalion, and an anti-tank battalion, along with an artillery regiment
[quote=SS Das Reich, Gregory L. Mattson (Page 21)]Until 1942, the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler was to exist as a motorized infantry regiment, before being reinforced and designated the 1st SS Panzer Division

Al, if you are to engage in a proper debate you should give a decent source as to where you found the information. I suggest you do some research into what the Waffen-SS actually were, and what they did, before posting.




roterschnee

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#224 14 years ago
Al CaponeName one confirmed act of attrocity America, UK or any other allied nation commited (outwith Russia) so we can all see, with a reliable source also[/QUOTE] I don't have a direct quote to support this one, as my copy of Band of Brothers is on loan at the moment. On 6th June 1944 Lt. Spears of 101st Airborne Division executed at least 8 German POWs shortly after offering them cigarettes. This was a widespread rumour in his battalion, which he finally admitted to commiting several years ago. I believe this is confirmed in both the DVD and book versions of Band of Brothers. [quote=David Thompson, Axis History Forums] "I regards to small scale allied war crimes...... Charles Whiting in Siegfried, The Nazis last Stand cites a Cpt. MacDonald, 2nd infantry stated that a German POW was shot by men in his unit with out his knowledge. Donald Burgett, 101 Airborne combat infantry veteran in Seven Roads to Hell cites an example of another trooper killing a prisoner he (Burgett) took in Bastogne area. Burgett then assaulted the perpetrator. (from a different post in the same thread) 1. In Sicily, July 1943, an American Army captain and sergeant were courts martialed for executing 30-35 German POWs. The two were given relatively light sentences of only a few years imprisonment. According to the source I read, the captain made reference to inflammatory sppeches made by Patton to his unit, and he therefore thought the killings were in accordance to Patton's speech. I think Patton had to respond in writing to the court (a disposition?). I am sorry, I can not cite the source at the moment, I do not have my notes ready available. 2. During the Battle of the Bulge, two American regimental commanders issued orders in writing that no SS prisoners were to be taken. Wiengarten, in his book, The Malmedy Massacre, gives one of the reigments. The second regiment, I have never learned it's number. The American journalist, Eric Severide (spelling?) once commented he stopped reporting German attrocities after he witnessed an American soldier killed two German POWs because he didn't want to walk them back to the POW collection point. I think this is quoted in Citizen Soldiers.

The above quote came from this thread http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=24148 . There are many similar accusations in the thread but I chose to pick some with actual citations. Kurt Meyer's book, "Grenadiers" he mentions that captured Canadian officers were found carrying papers stating that no German prisoners were to be taken during the Normandy offensive as to not slow the Allied advance. Kurt Meyer was the commander of the 12th SS Panzer Division during June and August 1944.




yuiop

Snowden's Secret

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23rd May 2003

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#225 14 years ago

Has anyone read Martin Gilbert's history of ww2? I think I remember him saying that when some U.S. troops found one of the concentration camps they killed all of the gaurds there.




Cap.Miller

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17th January 2005

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#226 14 years ago
yuiopHas anyone read Martin Gilbert's history of ww2? I think I remember him saying that when some U.S. troops found one of the concentration camps they killed all of the gaurds there.

If i was an allied soldier in and attacked a concentration camp. I would command all the german guards to get in the gas cell and do with em what they did before some hours with the jews.




Zehnder

Hands up. Who wants to die?

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27th July 2004

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#227 14 years ago

This thread is a waste of time. Someone should please make a thread called "Nazis etc." then sticky it. Then people can drive this infinite conversation online straight through to BF3.

Why? Because the one guy hit it when he said that when the word Nazi appears in a thread title, a 44 page blockbuster ensues. And no matter the original topic it always turns out the same. People showing off their WW2 "knowledge" or lack of I should say, with all the correcting that goes on. Nothing is being said here that hasn't been said before. And the minute somebody tries to bring it back to a FH perspective, the very next post (I've seen this a hundred times) says "Yeah, well the Russians did bad things too." Or "Stalin was worse than Hitler." I'm so sick of hearing that. Why even say that? WE ALL KNOW. Mind as well be talking about the Third Reich and then come talk about some sicko in your community who tortures cats for all the relevancy that carries with the topic at hand. I don't want an F-ing history lesson, I don't need it, some of you do. If I wanted that I would go read the thread about Nazi history not Nazis in FH Sooooo all you people with something to prove, where's the FH in all this? If you can't find it PLEASE, somebody please shut this thread down.




emonkies

I'm too cool to Post

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17th July 2003

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#228 14 years ago

I have received several requests asking me to reclose this thread. It is now closed and will remained closed unless my superiors deem it necessary to reopen.