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plee

aka [A47]Paul Lehmann

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8th June 2004

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#181 14 years ago

Just found interesting figures at http://members.tripod.com/~dietmagic/panther.html There are some real penetration tests tank vs tank (Panther vs T34/85, JS122, Sherman M4A4 (76mm), Churchill, not some theoretical values. I can't backup them up with a second source (and the setting like used ammo etc. is not clear), but if we'd take them for real just for now, one concludes: - the front turret is more prone to penetration than the front hull although the turret has more armor (slope effect?) - 75mm M3 can't even penetrate any front part of the Panther (see churchill stats) - 76mm has a hard time to penetrate the front except the front turret - from any other angle/direction the Panther's pretty much dead meat




Luscious

I want to be like Revenge

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2nd August 2003

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#182 14 years ago

AceSOnce we switch to a new engine there will be no FH for months, and once it's out it will be small and bugged. :p

This will be the time when you can really show your support. Organize yourselves and get discussions going. You will see that its NOT that easy to discuss armour systems - if you want to come to a conclusion that has to be brought ingame - even if it is only one tank against another.

There always is a huge difference between what people think is real and what actually would be real. This pseudo-reality as I may call it, makes you go "wow" if we do skins that have very little to do with actual colors of trees, vehicles or gras. FH gamer's experience pseudo-realistic unit behaviour, but due to the fact that most people judge a game more according to what they THINK is real unit behaviour but what actually WOULD be realistic, they enjoy it.

A very old and true statement about Computer Games: "The player will not accept unfiltered reality in a computer games. Many realistic features will seem akward and unrealitic to him: colors, physics, movement speed... A game that want to reflect a realistic environment has to create its own reality, that is congruent with the concept of realism that the majority of players have."

And because of this pseudo-realism that people celebrate, it is very hard to satisfy the majority. There are hundreds of opinions and ways of posting criticism - ranging from : "The Sherman Jumbo had a frontal armour thickness of XY mm, at an angle of XY degress a 88 can penetrate this at XY m distance with XY shots". to "Balance the Jumbo! It is way overpowered"

You want us to listen to the community? Then speak as one community. What would really help us are not hundreds of posts with different opinions - but a discussion among you guys that results into a post of a moderator, where he sums up the impressions, that players made during the game, and their suggestions, how problems could be solved. Our aim has to be a structured, organiced and constructive criticism system that makes it possible for us to check your ideas and wishes without having to read through hundreds of opinions.

As I stated before, this is not an easy task because of several reasons. But if you manage it to establish and run such a system, it will be a great help for us.

The armor is fine but the gun is not. It needs toning down.

My 2 cents!!




Zehnder

Hands up. Who wants to die?

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27th July 2004

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#183 14 years ago

All I know, devs, is that I play your mod because it gives the impression of realism, whether I like it or not. This gamer would appreciate that the mod continue to intrerpret reality as accurately as possible and not bend to what people ASSUME happened in real life.

To me, that is the essence of the Forgotten Hope mod.




NoCoolOnesLeft

My Blood Is Olive Drab

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19th November 2003

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#184 14 years ago
lumpehOh my Cool, your sigs just keep getting better & better mate! :D

Thanks Lumpeh. Drop me a PM and I might just make you one.

;)




Heligrin

Panther Commander

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15th July 2004

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#185 14 years ago
SputtyHeligrin isn't listening at all. The devs have said the armour and gun on the Panther remains unchaged, and the Jumbo was weakened(the 76mm being removed and put on a 50/50 chance to spawn with a 76 or 75) What you're saying proves you're unable to listen and you're just kicking and screaming about something that has been countered and disproven multiple times by multiple devs

I am just going to stop with the whole jumbo issue now, i am not going to post on it anymore unless my name or that i feel the need to post on it again. Something is obviously iffy with the Jumbo or it might be the armour of the Panther not having the slop effect, all i know is, from what everyone is presenting, the Panther should be able to take the Jumbo on without dieing in a few shots.




The Red Barron

{TDB} Tek Jansen

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8th July 2004

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#186 14 years ago

This is a realism mod, and the Devs are constantly looking for ways to get a better game. The 76 was not much of an improvement which mutliple American and German tankers comfirmed. On a side note, why can the M10 take a shot frontally from the Tiger at oh I'd say 25 feet? M10's were lightly armored tank destroyers using a shoot and scoot method, I would definatly not want to be in a direct head on engagement at close range with an 88. EDIT: Heh this belongs about a page back, didnt realize we were on numero 7 In addition though yes, Armin you are right, at close range (200 300m) the 76 was going to knock out a Panther, but since FH only ever happens at ranges even less than that, any tank should be able to knock out pretty much any tank correct? If the BF engine permitted seeing 1000m+ then the German tanks would have a definate advantage, but since it doesn't allow that why take away one of the German tanks only advantages, long range gun, thick armor?




Solo4114

Scoundrel Extraordinaire

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16th September 2002

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#187 14 years ago

Another thing that's crucial to acheiving a sense of realism in a game is relative consistency, which, unfortunately, the BF1942 engine does not really help us with. Put simply, the engine we're on now was NEVER meant to be modded and was slapped together in order to get the job done. It's not particularly elegant, it's not particularly efficient but for vanilla, it gets the job done. It's kind of like the Sherman M4 of games, if you want to think of it that way. :)

That's not to say that DICE didn't make a great game, just that there's a lot of weirdness and inconsistencies in the game, and it has absolutely ZERO to do with reality. DICE's game isn't about realism, though, so people don't really care that much. It was meant to get the job done in an arcade way, and wasn't intended to be modded.

So, in light of that, there's a lot that the FH devs can't do. I used to bitch and moan for things like camera sway, etc., until I learned how the camera system in this game works (IE: the camera is located in the CHEST of the model, not the head, and the aimpoint is ALWAYS located at the same place on the camera, so rather than have the camera stationary and the aimpoint move, the camera itself has to move so you'd feel like a bobble-head doll). We'd probably all love to have realistic armor penetration values and have them dependent on range, too, but that's just not possible in this engine. There's only so far the devs can take this engine, and even now they're REALLY squeezing every last drop out of it.

Anyway, my own views on realism in general are that, especially given the engine, absolute real world values create the FEELING that things are not real (mostly because the game world can't handle real world values and doesn't scale consistently enough for them). What has to be created is a general FEELING of realism, and that's a really tough thing to create when you've got this clunky engine AND a community that wants fairly disaparte things (IE: some want only a vague semblance of realism, some want absolute realism, etc.).

I don't think the community will ever be able to speak AS a community, except on certain issues. Overall, I think the devs should stick to a vision and let the community sort itself out. Unless it's something where a large portion of the community actually agrees on the issue, I'd say follow the vision and let the chips fall where they may.




Smurf

Loving FH2

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20th May 2004

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#188 14 years ago
Anlushac11After reading this Im not even sure why I bothered with studying and learning armor and armor history.

If I ever notice a change in the armor amount on a tank, I just adapt. coolx.gif As for the quote, ^^ I'm glad you do and please continue, I find your information to be very interesting and I have a hard time not reading your posts. smilie.gif The gun's abilities, I would say the meters were cut in half or more. So the German guns still have an advantage, but I really don't know for sure. Better ask this question, but aren't bullet and shell damage different depending on range? Some say yes, some say the engine can't do it. As for people saying the engine can't do things, on another forum someone said BF can't handle swords, etc. (we all know that isn't true) I never thought about the camera and the views, but what you said makes sense. Very interesting indeed. P.S. One last thing, with beta testing and all, I wouldn't say the BF engine is severly limited. It is limited however, but I feel severly doesn't describe the engine correctly. COD or CODUO is severly limited.




[SYN] Ace

Dread thinks I'm a special person

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7th October 2003

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#189 14 years ago
Solo4114I don't think the community will ever be able to speak AS a community, except on certain issues. Overall, I think the devs should stick to a vision and let the community sort itself out. Unless it's something where a large portion of the community actually agrees on the issue, I'd say follow the vision and let the chips fall where they may.

Yep. "Too many cooks spoil the broth" --- or irritate the head developer.




plee

aka [A47]Paul Lehmann

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8th June 2004

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#190 14 years ago

*dammit I should rather get back to study instead reading all this stuff*

Solo4114 So, in light of that, there's a lot that the FH devs can't do. I used to bitch and moan for things like camera sway, etc., until I learned how the camera system in this game works (IE: the camera is located in the CHEST of the model, not the head, and the aimpoint is ALWAYS located at the same place on the camera, so rather than have the camera stationary and the aimpoint move, the camera itself has to move so you'd feel like a bobble-head doll). We'd probably all love to have realistic armor penetration values and have them dependent on range, too, but that's just not possible in this engine. There's only so far the devs can take this engine, and even now they're REALLY squeezing every last drop out of it. [/QUOTE] If there are things that just can't be done on the engine, than the community will accept that if explained. On the other hand, there were certainly a lot of issues that were impossible to do on the first sight, but some smart coder found a way or workaround, just look at all the different mods on the old BF engine, with some feature not believed to be possible (well, can't name you one special feature right now, but you get the point). And oh, distance dependent damage code is built in already since vanilla BF. My guess would be that the devs tried really hard to model realistic damage code, but each new vehicle raised the complexity of this fragile balance of damage and armor code, and trying to fix one issue breaks the balance on the other side. [QUOTE=Solo4114] Anyway, my own views on realism in general are that, especially given the engine, absolute real world values create the FEELING that things are not real (mostly because the game world can't handle real world values and doesn't scale consistently enough for them). What has to be created is a general FEELING of realism, and that's a really tough thing to create when you've got this clunky engine AND a community that wants fairly disaparte things (IE: some want only a vague semblance of realism, some want absolute realism, etc.).

Well, how do you even GET the feeling of realism or know what it is? Noone here ever sat in a Tiger and took out shermans. Or took cover because of suppressing fire... So the only way to get an impression of what might have been real back then comes by watching TV, reading books, search the web, etc., and create an imagination of reality. How can you blame people if these imaginations differ?