Rifles and Smgs...I know I know -1 reply

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Beast of War

Born to kill

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28th May 2003

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#181 16 years ago
ExelYes but see, that is not the case in FH at the moment. The rifles are not powerful or accurate enough compared to the SMGs to give them that advantage. They don't kill with one shot if you hit the arms that are protecting the torso, and by the time you can send off another shot, the SMGer has had plenty of time to insert enough rounds into you for it to be fatal. And as of .66 the rifles are no longer 100% accurate either, so there goes that advantage.

So you have nothing against SMG, but simply want rifle damage to be more lethal....

I haven't had the same negative experiences as you have with FH rifles, but with that i could agree.......

Contrary to a relatively low velocity SMG or pistol bullet that punctures organs and at most breaks bone, a high velocity rifle shot in the arm or leg shatters bone and completely destroys muscle and blood vessles there.....no soldier will stand up after such a hit and fight on, but rather bleed to death on the spot in minutes if he isn't rushed to a field hospital right away where they will often seen the situation - especially of they can hardly keep up with the flood of incoming wounded - will decide to amputate that limb. A military field hospital in wartime is not a civilian hospital in peacetime. When they are already in time to save his life, he would be cripled for life and can never fight again. In FH such damage is equal to a "kill"




Solo4114

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16th September 2002

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#182 16 years ago

Beast, there's a separate issue with range. 100m in the BF1942 engine has a different practical value to 100m in the real world.

If a map like El Al is only 2000m in any given direction, and viewdistance is at most about 500m, at which range, humans are rendered as literally two or three pixels, the rifle's range advantage doesn't do much good. And that's on a big open desert map. On a map where you have more cover, you've got even more problems as a rifle user. Rifles still have range, but they don't have accuracy and power, and the range advantage WITHOUT those other aspects, is nowhere near as good as it should be.

Add to that the fact that SMGs ARE effective at range, and you've got some real problems.




Beast of War

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#183 16 years ago

Solo4114Beast, there's a separate issue with range. 100m in the BF1942 engine has a different practical value to 100m in the real world.

If a map like El Al is only 2000m in any given direction, and viewdistance is at most about 500m, at which range, humans are rendered as literally two or three pixels, the rifle's range advantage doesn't do much good. And that's on a big open desert map. On a map where you have more cover, you've got even more problems as a rifle user. Rifles still have range, but they don't have accuracy and power, and the range advantage WITHOUT those other aspects, is nowhere near as good as it should be.

Add to that the fact that SMGs ARE effective at range, and you've got some real problems.

Count the number of players using SMG in maps like Goldbeach.......and many other "open" type maps. Even if there is a SMG class in the menu, almost all players will take a rifle or other weapons over a SMG there. And in Goldbeach it is more or less even possible to fight with SMG, because of the many bushes. I fight with SMG there, but often am shot like a dog by rifles at distances it is impossible to retalliate with the SMG.

I'm not complaining.......that map with it's open stretches of terrain is rifle territory.

There is no rifle problem, nor SMG problem. There is only a problem with players wanting to use rifles in unsuitable enviroment/maps.




Solo4114

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#184 16 years ago

No, there is a problem with how both weapons perform. You may not agree, but that doesn't make the problem go away. :) It's nice that most people use rifles on a map like Gold Beach. But that doesn't change the performance values of SMGs and rifles. Rifles still take 2 shots to kill in a LOT of situations (especially if the enemy is running sideways from you -- that's almost a guaranteed two shot kill), and SMGs can kill at distances that they shouldn't be able to, given the way that the BF1942 engine handles distance and scale. Even on maps where you've got good visibility and open terrain (IE: Gold Beach, most North African maps), the numbers are still off. That doesn't mean that rifles aren't useful or worthless or anything, but it does mean that SMGs, within the ranges depicted by the BF1942 engine, are more effective than rifles are, considering that rifles are not always 1S1K weapons.

My problem has not been with SMGs and how they're used in close combat. They should be spray 'n' pray weapons in close combat or highly effective in burst fire mode. The problem lies in the definition of "close combat" within the game engine. The devs are looking at raw numbers, and saying "What? It's 100m. What's the big deal? Well, the big deal is that, if the entire Berlin map is only 500m long, for example, having an SMG capable of shooting across 1/4 of it kind of screws things up.

Here's a few possible solutions to this problem:

1.) Scale all the hand weapons. Personally, I think this should be done anyway. The raw numbers ain't where it's at. You have to look at how gameplay is affected by those numbers. The effect of SMG ranges, in terms of the game engine renderings, is more than the devs seem to realize. They have, as I've said over and over, a greater practical range than they would in real life, due to how the BF1942 engine scales things.

2.) If they steadfastly refuse to do #1, return rifles to 1S1K regardless of where you hit. I'd also add that L/M/HMGs should all be doing this anyway. You can shoot someone with a .50 cal gun and it won't kill in one hit every time. That is just flat out wrong. But as far as rifles go, the effect of an SMG's extended range (within the BF1942 engine) would probably be far less decried if, in a duel situation for example, the rifleman could kill with his first hit. I think most rifle users are generally pretty good with the weapon, but the problem is even if you do get the drop on the other guy, you're often liable to hit his arm, which, as we all know, is made of high tensile steel and coated in kevlar. ;) Note -- personally, I like the bullet drop code on all the weapons. I think it adds an element of skill and removes the potential for "laser gun/railgun rifles" complaints.

3.) Increase viewdistances on all maps. This will be problematic because it'll likely increase framerate drops (which are already being complained about), and even if you lift the fog somewhat, you've still got the problem of how well the engine renders things.




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#185 16 years ago
Solo4114even if you do get the drop on the other guy, you're often liable to hit his arm, which, as we all know, is made of high tensile steel and coated in kevlar. ;)

Sums it up perfectly for my money. :bows: