Some info regarding the KV series and German A/T guns. -1 reply

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emonkies

I'm too cool to Post

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17th July 2003

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#1 14 years ago

A German tanker with Pz.Regt 4 at the Dubissya river near Rasieninya June 24, 1941 wrote:

" The KV-1 and KV-2 which we first met here, were quite something. Our Companies commenced firing at 800m but it was ineffective. We moved closer and closer...soon we faced each other at 50-100 metres. A fantastic exchange of fire took place without any German success...our armor piercing rounds simply bounced off them. They drove right through us towards the infantry and rear services. We turned around and followed behind, where we succeded in knocking some of them out with very special purpose rounds (Pz.Gr40) at very close range: 30-60 metres!!!"

From another source:

"On the afternoon of June 23rd, the Lydaverai Battalion realized it had been cut off and sent some of their A/T guns frm PzJg.Abt 41 and some 105mm howitzers from Art Rgt. 76 to cover their southern flank in case the Russians tried to attack them from the rear. The next morning a a relief column from Rasieninya tried to link up with the isolated battalion and were quickly blown up by a KV-2 which had placed itself in a position overlooking the crossroads leading to the two bridgeheads. Further attempts proved equally fruitless and the situation at the river was getting very precarious. The attacks against the isolated battalion were intense and the Pz.35t's 37mm gun was worthless against the KV's hull. Only the 105mm guns of the artillery Rgt. had any effect on the Leviathians. The situation was so critical that 6th Panzer was obliged to request 1st Panzer to the West to attack the Russian flank. In the Afternoon a battery of brand new pak 38 50mm A/T guns were carefully moved up towards the KV from the bridgehead. The lead gun was only 600 metres from the KV when it began firing and was soon joined by the others. The KV-2 was not in the least disturbed by a direct hit, nor by the six other rounds that struck in quick succession. The KV-2 then destroyed the first Pak 38 with a direct hit, followed by several more rounds that quickly damaged the other guns. In the meantime a 88mm Flak 18 from Flak Abt 298 was carefully pulled out of its emplacement at Rasyeinyia and camoflauged with branches. The half track towing it moved carefully behind the wrecked trucks for concealment and the crew hastily lowered the gun off its limbers.

The activity had been spotted by the KV-2 and when the 88 was only 900m away the KV-2 destroyed the 88 and the tractor with two direct hits. Relief parties were kept away by machine gun fire. That night a squad from Pz. Pioneer Bn. 57 crept up to the KV-2 and placed a double charge of explosives next tot he hull and detonated it...only to duck as the KV began spraying the area with MG fire. A straggler from the team approached the vehicle and discovered that the charge had only broken the track and riped the fender off without any effect on the armor. He placed a second charge on the barrel, but this had negligible results.

The next day a platoon of Pz35's was dispatched from the bridgehead to a woods near the lone KV-2 at the crossroads. They kept up a steady stream of fire to distract the Russian crew while another 88 was carefully brought up from Rasyeinyia. When in position the 88 opened fire and scored 6 direct hits. The tankers dismounted to inspect teh KV-2, whicvh had not even started to burn. On inspection the tankers were appalled to notice that only 2 of the 6 88mm hits had even penetrated. There were seven small gouges from the 50mm hits and their was no damage eveident from the 37mm guns of the tankers Pz35t's.

As a couple of tankers climbed on board the main gun began to rotate toward the tankers who scattered. A engineer who had accompanied the tankers had enough presence of mind to drop a few grenades into the holes in the back of the turret, finally putting an end to the troublesome roadblock."

The 6th Pz was equipped mostly with Pz35t and Pz38t. The 1st Pz was mostly equipped with PzIII and PzIV.

The roadblock and the need of the 6th Pz to call for a attack on the Russian flanks brought about one of the largest tank battles in the heavily wooded and swampy area north of Rasyeinyia by the Tilsit-Shaulyia highway. During the battle PzGren Rgt 113 was almost overrun by KV-2's and attempts by PzJg. Bn 37 to stop the KV-2's resulted in their PAK 36 37mm guns being run over and crushed.

The Pz35t's took a heavy toll of the T-26's and BT's and the PzIII's and PzIV's took on the KV's and T-34's. Caught between two Panzer Divisions the Russians were crushed and forced to retreat into the swamps where their tanks were easily picked off. By nightfall nearly 180 burning Russian tanks littered the battlefield.




DuoGodOfDeath

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30th April 2004

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#2 14 years ago

Since im not totally familiar will all tank terms with different sized guns. Does this mean since the Tiger uses a 88 gun and they stated there 88 PAK could barley penetrate the KV-2. So being I dont know whats the difference between a PAK and a Tiger cannon, does this mean the Tiger will have a hard time killing a KV-2 or no?

Cause this beast tells me one thing so far.

"Find the closes plane and kamikaze into it"

^.^




emonkies

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#3 14 years ago

yes, basically it should have a hard time killing it.

The Flak 18 is the towed 88mm gun which is virtually identical to the 88mm L/56 used in the Tiger except teh Tiger uses a muzzle brake on the end of the barrel to lessen teh recoil felt by the vehicle.

And in .62 you wont be able to kamikaze with aircraft anymore




DuoGodOfDeath

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#4 14 years ago

What do you mean no kamikazing? I would hope a airplane flying at 300 MPH would kill a tank :/ Or does Divine Wind to tanks does little or no damage. Also 88 L/56 What does the 56 stand for? On a side note can a King Tiger easily destory a KV-2? Also on a quick search this one site claims the KV-2 didnt last long.

The KV-2 mounted a powerful 152 mm howitzer, but this gun was of less value in armored engagements. Additionally, the turret was so large and heavy that the the tank had very poor mobility and its height made it easy to spot and hit by enemy gunners. Production of the KV-2 stopped at the end of 1941.



Dancing Jesus

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23rd November 2003

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#5 14 years ago

I could see how the tiger would have a hard time knocking out the KV2 if it was shooting outside of 500m and was shooting the turret, but I dont think it would have a hard time penetrating under 500m anywhere on the tank, especially if panzergranate 40 was used. You know what the side hull armor was on the KV2 Anlushac? Im guessing the 110mm was on the turret front, making it the only tough place for an 88 to penetrate. As Achtung Panzer cites, the tiger's 88 could penetrate from as far as 2000m using the '40 ammo. Cant argue with real life experience though, that KV2 does seem like a beast. Also shows you can penetrate a tank without taking it out of action.




judge reinhold

BOY I SURE POST ALOT

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28th April 2003

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#6 14 years ago
DuoGodOfDeathWhat do you mean no kamikazing? I would hope a airplane flying at 300 MPH would kill a tank :/ Or does Divine Wind to tanks does little or no damage. Also 88 L/56 What does the 56 stand for?

the 56 stands for the length of the barrel. also regarding the thoughtline "a 300mph plane wouldnt kill a tank?" really requires some thinking doesnt it?




the_unborn

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3rd November 2003

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#7 14 years ago

Everyone is talking about Tiger, what about Panther, it should penetrate better --- 124mm@500m // 111mm@1000m // 99mm@1500m (well that isnt the case in current FH ver). KV-II has 75mm of armor on the front and sides and 110mm on the mantlet, which is almost as big as the whole turrent front. Rear armor is around 65 or 70mm thick, i think.




emonkies

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#8 14 years ago

88mm is the inside diamater of the barrel at the breech. The calibre is the length of the gun from breech to tip divided by the inside diamater at the breech. So its overall length divided by 88mm.

The side and rear armor of the KV-2 turret should be 75mm.

A Tiger II's 88mm L/71 or a Panther's 75mm L/70 both outperform a Tiger I ausf E's 88mm L/56.

Yes a 300mph plane should kill a tank but its become such a cheap kill tactic now. Once in awhile its not that bad, but I have been kamikazed 14 times in one game. Because it takes no skill to dive on a tank but it does to bomb or rocket.




Beast of War

Born to kill

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28th May 2003

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#9 14 years ago

Kamikazing tanks with planes should be made impossible......not for realism, for gameplay.

People that lack the skill to kill otherwise with these aircraft (regardless if they have bombs or not.....because air supriority fighters didn't carry bombs ) should keep bunnyhopping about on their feet....really. :rolleyes:

Tanks do not nessesarely have to be taken out by aircraft.......so if a fighter hasn't got bombs, it isn't "useless" but meant to kill other aircraft. There are usually enough bunnyhoppers around with nOObpacks and nOObsticks to take tanks out, and there are usually other tanks and artillery that can do that too......so no need to wreck aircraft at all.

Now i agree the devs did a strange thing to the aircraft mg and cannons making them virtually useless to strafe groundtargets ( whatever the reason was for that has still got to be answered ? ) and seriously compromised fighters-without-bombs effectiveness. Lets hope FH 0.62 will restore aircraft a bit to their former FH 0.5 glory and realism.......at least when it comes to weapon damage.

Anlushac, i think the flak 88 used less powerfull (AT) munitions early in the war since the german only recently found out they could use the flak 88 against tanks.

It could well be the KwK 88 mm was more devastating, due to it's more powerfull munition that had a few years to be developed.




RgrBouch

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11th April 2004

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#10 14 years ago
DuoGodOfDeathWhat do you mean no kamikazing? I would hope a airplane flying at 300 MPH would kill a tank :/ Or does Divine Wind to tanks does little or no damage.

The Divine wind was not wasted on tanks, they were used against ships. Even when used against ships the Japanese were pick about which ships would be attacked. I never complain about people Kamakazing ships, but tanks I have a problem with.