So basically I can get killed while inside my tiger & leave a nice little Tiger out on the Battlefield for some Russian to take.
Yup :cool: Though who the hell would want a Tiger anyway, if you can use a T-34? :D
tvihWell that's what I was basically after. I mean, the HE artillery shell doesn't NEED to penetrate, it can destroy a tank without actual penetration. I don't know if a SU-152, for example, used a HE round of equal HE capability as compared to indirect artillery, but in any case it packed one hell of a punch. But what I meant with the rattling, well basically I meant lighter shells with that. Like, even if a 76,2mm field gun hit a tank, even if it didn't penetrate it could knock the crewmen out of their chairs. Happened to Finnish T-34 crews quite often when their tank was blasted with a round that didn't penetrate. The first Finnish T-34, according to one description, was hit repeatedly by a 76,2mm field gun while the tank rushed towards it (I'm guessing it was a field gun since an AT gun with AT rounds probably would've busted the tank), with the last round hitting from a range of 2 meters (!) before the tank crushed the gun. That blast a long with the collision literally threw the crew all around the inside of the tank. Also one example is a Finnish KV-1 - the type with the bolted-on armor on the turret - that took two direct hits from T-34/85s simultaneously while leading some Finnish tanks around a road curve, since they knew the enemy tanks were waiting, and no other Finnish tank had any chance of surviving going first. As it happened, the shells didn't penetrate, but the crew got basically knocked senseless. Quite soon after the hit the driver managed to get the KV back a bit, and the rest of the crew jumped out. They could barely run away from the tank, all very wobbly, with blood coming out of their ears and noses, due to the hellishly loud bangs and the jarring force of the rounds' impact. I tend to get a "bit" long-winded, don't I? :D So, to put a long story very short: a round doesn't have to penetrate to kill or disable :cool:
The SU-152 had a HEAT round specifically designed for its gun with the sole purpose of countering the Elefant, Tiger, and Panther. The new round was capable of penetrating 200mm of armor at any range if it hit right.
The SU-152's took a nasty toll of the German "Animals" at Kursk leading to its knickname of "Zvierboy" which supposedly means AnimaL Killer.
And the ringing and dazing is bad and so is the unnerving effect of AP rounds bouncing off of the tank. Two different books I have mention how the KV tank crews were hand picked so as to have experienced tank crews who wouldnt bail under fire.
It was natural survival instinct when a tank came under fire for inexperienced tank crews to bail and try to run for cover. Axis and Allied both experienced this. The superior German training took this into account and tried to prepare crews with training and live fire simulations. As the war started going south for the Axis crews didnt receive as good as training as the early war Panzer troops. Early war Russian tankers were known to panic and bail under fire only to be cut down by MG fire.
German tank crews were known to bail at the first sign of smoke or fire.
one more thing, the KV-2 looks like a beats, and it was a beats to handle. To use its gun it had to be on FLAT ground and come to a FULL and complete stop. And even then the recoil damged the tank ever so slightly. It may have stopped the german advance here and there, but in effectiveness it was about the same as the Jagdtiger with its 128 mm gun. Moveable pillbox, no more no less.
Also, why was sloped armour so effective versus "earlier" AT cannons? Well because the first AP grenades all had a "sharp" tipped projectile. Later this was covered with a lead cap to flatten the nose, negating the bouncing effect and thus making sloped armour very m,uch less effective
OrdosIt may have stopped the german advance here and there, but in effectiveness it was about the same as the Jagdtiger with its 128 mm gun. Moveable pillbox, no more no less.
Holding up the entire 6th panzer division by yourself for 2 days is hardly "stopping the german advance here and there"
piffle, back in the day, when i was a boy i could hold back ENTIRE nazi army groups WHILE walking 60kilometers to school through sleet and snow
you forgot having to go uphill both ways.
In regards to the effectiveness of the KT and Panther vs the KV-2 its a mute point since after -42 there were no more KV-2 in service. The KV-1 however should be damned near invincible when it comes to anything under 75mm L/43. The 50mm long could penetrate it, but not easily or very reliably. the 88Flak (and L/56) is a whole other story. This beast could cut right through it at some distance. but not at the distances that the germans were used to knocking out tanks with it.
When it comes to knocking out tanks with HE. There are a number of accounts of 122mm and 152mm guns knocking out tanks like Tigers, Kingtigers and panthers with he shells. basically they just tore it apart with the force of the blast. The turret was probarbly the most vulnerable part. Several reports of turrets being knocked off the tank by HE shells exist. This would NOT be a pleasurable experience for the three crewmembers in the turret.
AussieZaitsevpiffle, back in the day, when i was a boy i could hold back ENTIRE nazi army groups WHILE walking 60kilometers to school through sleet and snow
When I got home from a day of holding back Nazi Army groups my father would cut me in two with a breadknife.
Regarding HE and tanks.
There is an account in the book "Deathtraps" by Belton Y. Cooper about an incident where The lines were fluid changing and German and US units would bump into each other unexpectedly leading to firefights.
In one such instance a M12 "King King" Self Propelled 155mm howitzer was moving down a rural road toward its ordered rendevous point with a HE round in the chamber "just in case" when suddenly a Tiger II ausf B came out of the brush and turned to face the M12. The panicked SP gun crew imediately fired the chambered round without hesitation and with a stroke of incredible luck the round hit the base of the front of the Tiger II's turret.
The force of the blast was deflected down through the thin hull top armor killing instantly the driver and R.O. before detonating the ammo inside which blew the turret off of the vehicle. There were no survivors from the Tiger II's crew.