Some info regarding the KV series and German A/T guns. -1 reply

Please wait...

Akatosh

.

50 XP

28th December 2003

0 Uploads

299 Posts

0 Threads

#41 15 years ago

I just want to add some things when i saw this thread. 88 Flak 18 /L56 is NOT the same gun as the Tigers gun 8.8cm KwK 36 L/56. The KwK 36 had about 40% better armor penetration (with same APCBC round - the panzergrenate 39) Even the panzergrenate 39 HL (HEAT) which could be fired from the Tiger but not from the Flak had better penetration...

(No i dont talk about the superior panzergrenate 40 (HVAP), i am just saying that the Tiger probably would have some easier task to blow up a KV2 than peoples can maybe be mistaken in their belief based on a Flak 18 having problems, its different cannons, even if they was same lenght and such)




LIGHTNING [NL]

FH2 Developer

50 XP

30th May 2003

0 Uploads

9,811 Posts

0 Threads

#42 15 years ago

Then, in which aspect are they different?




emonkies

I'm too cool to Post

50 XP

17th July 2003

0 Uploads

15,096 Posts

0 Threads

#43 15 years ago

AkatoshI just want to add some things when i saw this thread. 88 Flak 18 /L56 is NOT the same gun as the Tigers gun 8.8cm KwK 36 L/56. The KwK 36 had about 40% better armor penetration (with same APCBC round - the panzergrenate 39) Even the panzergrenate 39 HL (HEAT) which could be fired from the Tiger but not from the Flak had better penetration...

(No i dont talk about the superior panzergrenate 40 (HVAP), i am just saying that the Tiger probably would have some easier task to blow up a KV2 than peoples can maybe be mistaken in their belief based on a Flak 18 having problems, its different cannons, even if they was same lenght and such)

The 8.8 cm KwK 36 L/56 was an adaptation of the famous 8.8 cm Flak 36, which was a development of the Flugzeugabwehrkanone Model 18 (Flak 18), and was first used in combat by the Condor Legion, in Spain, where it earned the reputation of being an excellent anti-aircraft gun as well as a tank killer. This capacity would be confirmed during the French campaign in 1940, and most spectacularly in the hands of Rommel's Afrika Korps in North Africa. The Flak 36 was essentially a Flak 18 mounted in three sections, making possible to change the part of the barrel that suffered most attrition from the high-velocity rounds. By the time the Wehrmacht was heavily committed in Russia, it proved to be the only gun in the German inventory capable to destroy the new T-34 and KV-2 Russian tanks at longer ranges. In 1938 the 8.8 cm Flak 18 was considered for firing against ground targets, specifically armored/concrete pillboxes and enclosures. and the armor piercing ammunition that would be in service from this time onwards consisted of the 8.8 cm Panzergranate weighing around 9.5 kg with armor piercing cap and ballistic cap with a high explosive filler of 160 grams. Muzzle velocity is listed as 810 m/s from the L/56 barrel of the Flak 18 and Flak 36/37. During early 1942 the penetration ability was improved with the introduction of the Pzgr.39 of 10.2 kg weight with reduced HE filler of 59 grams. Muzzle velocity was 800 m/s. The early Blitzkrieg up to early 1942 saw the use of the large capacity Pzgr. with penetration less than 100 mm at 30 degrees. The 88 mm Flak APCBC round which fought the KV and T34 tanks during 1941 and early 1942 was less effective than the round fired by the Tiger's 88 mm KwK 36 L/56. Even the later 88 mm Flak round with a large capacity high explosive filler (and 9.54 kg weight) penetrated from 8% to 23% less than the 88 mm KwK 36 L/56 APCBC round.

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1.htm

Flak 18 - Was replaced by the Flak 36 which had a 3 piece barrel for easier servicing. Performance is identical. The Flak 36 was the gun on which the 88mm KwK 36 was based on. My book mentions that the KwK 36 was based on the Flak 36 and differed mainly by having a muzzle brake and possibly a revised more compact recoil system.

Flak 18, Flak 36, and Flak 37 Length of barrel in calibres: L/56 Muzzle velocity: 795-810mps Projectile weight: 9.5kg Maximum horizontal range: 14815m - 14860m Maximum Rate of Fire: 15-20 rounds per minute (sustained would be less) Penetration: 128mm @100m and 97mm @ 1500m

WWIIvehicles.com lists the penetration of the 88mm KwK 36 as 120mm at 100m and 95mm at 1500m.

Achtung Panzer lists the penetration for the 88mm KwK 36 as 120mm at 100m and 91mm at 1500m




AussieZaitsev

Revenge was here.

50 XP

14th December 2003

0 Uploads

1,970 Posts

0 Threads

#44 15 years ago

woah, looking at those figures really shows you the velocity of those shells, only 30mm of difference in pentration over 1400m.




tvih

The Village Idiot from Hell

50 XP

30th December 2003

0 Uploads

718 Posts

0 Threads

#45 15 years ago
Anlushac11And the ringing and dazing is bad and so is the unnerving effect of AP rounds bouncing off of the tank. Two different books I have mention how the KV tank crews were hand picked so as to have experienced tank crews who wouldnt bail under fire. It was natural survival instinct when a tank came under fire for inexperienced tank crews to bail and try to run for cover.

Yeah... and considering how the tanks - Finnish at least, most likely German and Soviet often too, in pitched battles - often had to fight for days with practically no rest, it's no wonder one's nerves cause him to bail and run. For the Finns especially true for the '44 offensive when facing overwhelming enemy forces and fighting under constant huge pressure, with no rest. And then you get knocked senseless by hits from a powerful gun. No wonder you try to make a run for it (and in that case the crew did survive, as did the tank that got to safety). Usually Finnish crews stayed in their tank even under heavy fire (as is most certainly the case in other armies too), but of course not always - like one cowardly crew abandoned their fully working StuG just because a shell hit NEAR it! As if the Finland Armored Division could afford losing any potent AFVs. But well, war is tough, and not all can handle it equally. As a contrast, the StuG Ps.231-3: "Took a hit shortly after destroying a Soviet tank. Continued fighting until another three hits destroyed amoung other things the drive sprocket. The StuG had to be abandoned." It shows that often the Soviet tank crews that were against Finland were inexperienced. They often seemed to abandon their tanks for no reason whatsoever. At least on a couple of occasions Finns saw a tank or tanks somewhere, retreated, went back... the tank had been abandoned. Talk about bravery :) Some go on as long as they can, some break down under even small pressure. I'd say that in FH people seem to lose their nerve much more easily than the real crews did, with bailing out of IS-2s, King Tigers and the like when basically being hit by anything larger than (or even a) pistol ;)




Kämpfer

I take what n0e says way too seriously

50 XP

27th April 2003

0 Uploads

2,394 Posts

0 Threads

#46 15 years ago
Anlushac11The force of the blast was deflected down through the thin hull top armor killing instantly the driver and R.O. before detonating the ammo inside which blew the turret off of the vehicle. There were no survivors from the Tiger II's crew.

Isn't that one of the main changes in the Panther Ausf G, well I mean preventing that from happening one of the main changes?




emonkies

I'm too cool to Post

50 XP

17th July 2003

0 Uploads

15,096 Posts

0 Threads

#47 15 years ago
KämpferIsn't that one of the main changes in the Panther Ausf G, well I mean preventing that from happening one of the main changes?

This was the force of a HE blast on the front of a Tiger II ausf B which has no shot trap so no the revised Panther gun manlet with the chin would not have made a difference in this occasion.

It was just a very lucky shot.




TheWharGoul

Tank Modeller

50 XP

18th March 2004

0 Uploads

221 Posts

0 Threads

#48 15 years ago

heres a story of a KV-1 and what it took to take it down.

"One KV-1 managed to reach the only supply route of the German task force located in the northern bridge head, and blocked it for several days. The first unsuspecting trucks to arrive with supplies were immediately shot a fire by the tank. There was practically no means of elimination of the monster. It was impossible to bypass it because the area was surrounded with swamp. Supplies could not be moved up and the wounded could not be brought out, They died. The attempt to put the tank out of action using a 50mm antitank gun battery which had just been introduced at that time at a range of 500 yards ended with heavy losses to the crews and equipment. The tank remained undamaged even though after the fact it was shown that there were 14 direct hits, these only produced blue spots on the armor. When an 88 was brought up the tank calmly permitted it to be moved in place then smashed it before it was ready to fire. There were attempts to blow the tracks by demolition during the night but the charge was not large enough and only blew pieces of the tracks off. The tank was still mobile and continued to molest the rear of the front and block supplies. The tank finally became victim of a German ruse. Fifty tanks were ordered to feign an attack from three sides to draw its fire while an 88 was set up to the rear of the tank. The 88 scored 12 direct hits on the tank. Three of which actually penetrated."

taken from the book Fighting In Hell

Three of the 12 shots got in. And it was in the rear of the tank. Ive read lots of the same types of things happening, with KV-1's and KV-2's..




D-Fens

uwe bolltastic!

50 XP

2nd May 2003

0 Uploads

4,837 Posts

0 Threads

#49 15 years ago

Slightly ot, but I was wondering if the KV's are getting winter skins, so the placeholder T34/85's can be removed?




judge reinhold

BOY I SURE POST ALOT

50 XP

28th April 2003

0 Uploads

2,112 Posts

0 Threads

#50 15 years ago
D-FensSlightly ot, but I was wondering if the KV's are getting winter skins, so the placeholder T34/85's can be removed?

yep already do