Wrong on so many levels -1 reply

Please wait...

FryaDuck

All my base are belong to n0e

50 XP

30th September 2003

0 Uploads

515 Posts

0 Threads

#1 11 years ago
we have the Ordnance QF 25 pounder field gun/howitzer. With the wheels resting on its circular firing platform, it provided direct anti-tank fire. With the platform attached to the carriage, it could be used in traditional indirect fire support role, with ranges of up to 12km possible with specially designed rounds.

This statement from the main page concerning QF 25pr is so incorrect that I've had no alternative but to create this thread in an effort to correct the gross inaccuracies. For those of you who have a short attention span please leave as this will be long. I won't be citing any references as I trained (and fired) the gun as a Gunner with the Royal Regiment of Australian Artillery (RAA).

QF 25pr 25pounder.jpg.thumb.jpg

Corrected statement

we have the Ordnance QF 25pr Mk 2 field gun/howitzer. The wheels rested on a circular firing platform which provided the gun with 360 degree rapid traverse, so well balanced was the gun that one man could traverse it through 180 degrees in less that 4 seconds, it could be fired with the wheels on the ground but with a limited traverse (4 deg left and right). Range of up to 12,250m with supercharge. Smaller in caliber than the other main protractors in WWII, 3.45 inch ( 87.6 mm) as opposed to 4.134 inch (105mm). The 25pr was nevertheless considered by all to be one of the best artillery pieces in use. The devastation caused by the gun (and the speed at which the British artillery control system could respond) in Normandy and the rest of North-West Europe made many German soldiers believe that the British had secretly deployed an automatic 25pr.

The detail

During my early military service I had the opportunity to train as a gun number on the gun for recruiting and display/salute purposes. Normally, at the time, I was a gun number on the 105mm M2A2 Gun/Howitzer (yes the same gun used by the US during WWII). The differences between to two is so marked that they do rate a comparison so much so that the current field gun for UK, USA and Australia/NZ is the L118 Light Gun (US M119A1) which takes some of it's design features from the 25pr. Among these features are its vertically-sliding block breech, and a box trail instead of a split trail; a traversing platform is normally used.

The 25pr used a one man lay; that is the No.3 layed the gun for line and elevation (direction and range) and fired the gun. The remaining crew, except the No1 (gun commander), were used for ammunition/loading and unloading spent cartridges. The 105mm M2A2 (and the 105mm leFH 18) used a two man lay, one for line and one for elevation, breech operation and firing. Many would consider the two man lay to be a faster method of operating the gun in fact the one man lay is faster.

The box trail and firing platform allowed for rapid deployment where the split trail (M2A2 and leFH 18) took more time to set the gun up. The key to this was the firing platform. To get the 25pr into action only required that the gun be unhooked from its tractor (truck), the platform dropped (self digging btw) from the traveling position and the gun pulled onto the platform (when the platform was dropped it came to rest just behind the wheels) and the cradle (what the barrel rested on) unlocked. The split trail required the brakes to be applied, axles to be unlocked, barrel to be unlocked, and the trails to be split and pinned. The 25pr didn't require any more space width wise as it was never going to get any wider, the M2A2 and leFH 18 did. The box trail and platform didn't require a recoil pit to be dug, the split trail did. Some digging was required to ensure that the split trail gun did not move once fired, with the box trail and firing platform it was not.

Ammunition and loading; both the 25pr and 105mm leFH 18 used the separate loading method of ammunition, the M2A2 used semi-fixed ammunition.

Separate loading required the round to be loaded and rammed home prior to the loading of the cartridge case. The 25pr used 4 charges plus supercharge (max range or AT 1700ms m/v) and a balestite catridge (eg rifle grenade cartridge). The M2A2 used semi-fixed primer fired cartridge the gun being loaded with the round mated to the cartridge much like a rifle or tank gun ammunition. I am unsure as to whether the 105mm leFH 18 used a balestite cartridge or primer firing mechanism. The advantage of the primer fired cartridge was that it provided a quicker and more even ignition hence burning of the propellant.

Side Note: The Germans never were able to design an adequate breech mechanism, such as interrupted thread (Albert type), to preclude the use of brass cartridge cases to obtain obduration (sealing the chamber). The weight factor and size restrictions of a brass cartridge as well as the manufacturing requirements boggles the mind. Spiral steel has been used but it is no where near as effective as brass.




ctz

FH Devolver

50 XP

17th May 2004

0 Uploads

655 Posts

0 Threads

#2 11 years ago

so the question is -- when firing in an indirect fire support role, why would you need more than +/- 4 degrees traverse? it seems to me that being able to quickly traverse 360 degrees is useless there, and only useful when operating with the direct fire telescope.




Yossarian

Moose frots Obama

50 XP

28th March 2005

0 Uploads

1,768 Posts

0 Threads

#3 11 years ago

I looked up "nitpicking" in the dictionary and found this thread.




pvt. Allen

I would die without GF

50 XP

20th July 2005

0 Uploads

5,654 Posts

0 Threads

#4 11 years ago

Depending how you want to look at it. I'd say it's very welcome in comparison to repetative obvious suggestions or anti-fan rants.




Admiral Donutz VIP Member

Wanna go Double Dutch?

735,271 XP

9th December 2003

0 Uploads

71,460 Posts

0 Threads

#5 11 years ago

Interesing information but a bit too long for a newsupdate. ;) Newsupdate useless are a very rough summary. I think you will find the information "missing" from describing battle X in 10 lines even worse. :lol:




Guest

I didn't make it!

0 XP

 
#6 11 years ago

OMG IM COMPLETELY DEVASTATED BY THIS historical inaccurate treason!

Big freakin woop man the gun is still gonna do the same thing in the game, and thats blowin the sh*t out of stuff... like you with a convoy of tanks.




It's Happy Fun Ball!

aka Killed in First Minute

50 XP

21st October 2005

0 Uploads

1,297 Posts

0 Threads

#7 11 years ago

Trust me, in these forums, historical inaccuracy is a sin....




FryaDuck

All my base are belong to n0e

50 XP

30th September 2003

0 Uploads

515 Posts

0 Threads

#8 11 years ago

ctz;3860855so the question is -- when firing in an indirect fire support role, why would you need more than +/- 4 degrees traverse? it seems to me that being able to quickly traverse 360 degrees is useless there, and only useful when operating with the direct fire telescope.[/QUOTE]

At 1000m 8 degrees (+/-4 deg) is only a 142m wide arc. At 10000m it is only a 1420m arc. Normally, with interlocking frontages an artillery regiment is required to cover up to 25000m at max range. A circular platform is more stable at all angles of traverse and also allows for the "what if" close action.

Yossarian;3860860I looked up "nitpicking" in the dictionary and found this thread.[/QUOTE]

Well that is the Catch 22.

[QUOTE=Admiral Donutz;3861109]Interesing information but a bit too long for a newsupdate. ;) Newsupdate useless are a very rough summary. I think you will find the information "missing" from describing battle X in 10 lines even worse. :lol:

Hence the reason why I bothered to post.

[QUOTE=The French Boner;3861254]OMG IM COMPLETELY DEVASTATED BY THIS historical inaccurate treason!

Big freakin woop man the gun is still gonna do the same thing in the game, and thats blowin the sh*t out of stuff... like you with a convoy of tanks.

Ah the mindset of the pebble, stone, rock and boulder troglodyte.

"Who cares if the music is woeful just as long as it is very loud!!!"

Thanks for the bump btw.




Flippy Warbear

One of Kelly's Heroes

50 XP

2nd January 2004

0 Uploads

2,600 Posts

0 Threads

#9 11 years ago

"I like turtles :]"

;)




Pavy

i like pudding

50 XP

12th March 2005

0 Uploads

146 Posts

0 Threads

#10 11 years ago

"Incoming spam at 10 o'clock" "Stay on target"