No! I'm Spamacus!
17th June 2003
It shouldn't be too long before someone does.
17th June 2002
>Omen<;5594281Happens every time in my experience. You know how NPCs oddly slide vs walk in some segments of games? It's like that, only faster, then they just seem to disappear.
That's odd. I'm off to YouTube to see if anybody's posted a video of it. That sounds like it looks amusing...
LOL, if that doesn't make it obvious their detection and crime reporting system is bugged, I don't know what does, and it also takes your answer of just killing anyone that sees you steal, and tosses it right out the window. Now you might say kill the horse after riding it, but as I said, by the time I got to Rivertown, there were already 3 guards from Whiterun that appeared out of nowhere, and it's pretty hard to kill a horse anyway when it's quickly sliding away then disappearing.
If nothing else it shows that their horses are bugged, if they're being classed as NPCs. I might say, sneak up to the horse and mount it from behind so it doesn't see you. Whenever there's a bug, there's a workaround. Killing it after you've ridden it won't work, as I think once an NPC has come into contact with other NPCs after witnessing a crime it's no longer possible to silence them. Word has spread too far already, if you like. Again, I'm still not sure where these guards are appearing from. I've committed a lot of crimes, having completed both the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests, along with 'personal projects', and carelessly been caught a few times. I've seen guards running towards me from the distance, usually when I'm in proximity to other NPCs without being in stealth mode, but I've never seen them mysteriously appear from nowhere. Are you sure they're not just emerging from nearby buildings? I'm not saying it's perfect by any means. I am saying it makes sense, to me at any rate. Perhaps it helps that I've had hundreds of hours to grasp exactly how the system works from both Skyrim and Oblivion
There was no indication it was a quest of the Jarl's steward, again, poor, inconcise game structure in key areas.
Those bounty quests are quite common repeatable quests; not only did the quest giver explicitly state that the Jarl's men came along and issued the bounty, but your quest log will instruct you to see the Jarl's steward after you've completed your objective. Even if you didn't look in your journal, the next step of the quest should pop up on the screen when it occurs.
Nevermind the bounty amount and exact crime/crimes charged. The main point was the 3 guards I first encountered didn't even make it clear there WAS a crime or crimes being charged, and NO bounty was mentioned. It also wasn't clear whether that ONE dialog option was going to be the start of a physical conflict, or a debate proving they had no evidence against me as you suggest, thus I was reluctant to use it.
I'm afraid you've lost me here. So I deliberately incurred a small bounty and wandered around until I found a guard, so I could quote exactly what happens. So with a small bounty (12 gold in my case), when I walk past a guard he will say, "wait... I know you!" He won't do anything else if I don't engage him. If I do engage him, he will repeat the sentiment, and I get one dialogue option - "You're making a mistake..." On choosing that option, the guard will say - "There's no mistake, you're a wanted man and it's time to pay for your crimes!"
At this junction you get several dialogue options.
- "I don't have time for this, do you?"
- "You caught me. I'll pay off my bounty (# gold)"
- "I submit. Take me to jail."
- "I'd rather die than go to prison!"
If you leave without saying anything at this point, or wait long enough for the guard to get bored and leave the conversation of his own accord, he will dismissively say, "you know what, you're not worth the hassle, go, be some other guard's problem!" And if you choose the first option, he will say the same thing. The other options are reasonably self-explanatory - clear your bounty by either paying it off or serving time in jail, or start a fight to escape. Was it the first one you were having trouble predicting the outcome of? Perhaps I'm just used to Bethesda's writing style, or perhaps it was just the context of the other options, but I immediately went for the first option the first time this situation happened to me. I agree that it could be more explicitly worded as a 'get out of jail free' option, but I have to wonder how much hand-holding it would entail if they made every conversation option in the game so obvious. On the other hand, if you garner a larger bounty, there is no ambiguity: "You have committed crimes against skyrim and her people - what say you in your defence?" At this point, you only have the latter three options. The only reason a guard would attack you without provocation is if you are walking around with your weapon ready while having a high enough bounty for them to actively try and arrest you. If your weapon is sheathed, or if you sheath it during a fight with them, they will immediately converse with you and you will get those same three options.
OMG are you kidding, are we even playing the same game? Like clockwork they seem to popin for me, though I'm still not sure if it was due to the game not being able to tell if I was actually guilty of anything, since the first guards didn't seem sure.
Again, when I have a small bounty, sometimes a guard will think I look familiar, and when I have a larger bounty, they will actively chase me. I see them running towards me from the distance sometimes in the latter situation, but popping out of nowhere? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean.
Understand that I'm not just talking about the eye itself. Sure it's easy to see it's a line or shows detection to indicate whether you've been seen. What is unclear is what follows sometimes if you HAVE been seen. That's why I feel the eye in and of itself is insufficient. Most games that have crime committing and authority figures pursuing criminals have a clear cut way of showing when you're actually being pursued, ASIDE from the stealth meter, be it the way the mini map looks, heat circles whatever. Now immersion of the onscreen look is one thing, I can fully understand why some prefer an uncluttered HUD, but clearly this game needs either better, more clear cut pursuit, with guards that aren't chasing you without seemingly knowing why, or SOME kind of indication you're actually BEING pursued. That THREE guards would be chasing me without even knowing why is pretty odd in itself.
Fair enough. The eye doesn't tell you who can see you, just that you are being seen. I think that's what your problem with it is. In a dungeon this is sufficient, as typically there is nobody non-hostile in a dungeon unless you have a companion, who doesn't figure into the stealth detection anyway. But in town, there's little way of knowing whether it's a guard who can see you or a random chicken. Maybe, again, it's because I'm used to the mechanics of the system, as I can generally avoid the notice of guards without too much issue unless I'm careless. I tend to assume that if I have a bounty and can be seen, I'm at risk of being pursued, especially if I see guards running towards me. That's generally enough for me, and I'm not sure if I want the game to be telling me anything more than that anyway. But as you seem to be having a problem with guards teleporting at you, that might make it a bit harder. When you say they didn't know why they were chasing you, what do you mean exactly? They would only ever chase you if you had a sufficiently high bounty - and as explained in my prior post, there's a reason for that. Again, maybe it would have been possible to get them to list each crime you'd committed, but given the scope of the game and the number of ways to get their attention, I can understand why they chose not to.
Had that been made clear, I'd have just put in some sleep hours to warp through it, but it wasn't. For that matter does it REALLY make sense you can get off scott free without paying ANY fine, or giving up ANY gear by just doing time, and be fed on their dime while you're there, yet when you choose to pay a fine they want to rape you of yet another fine and take your gear too?
You will lose all progress you've made towards the next skill level by spending time in prison, for one thing. That might not sound like a big deal now, but when you've reached a higher level, particularly when your skills have reached the 80s or 90s, it can take a lot longer to improve them. Besides, I think you just described our own prison system there... And I'm still not sure what you mean when you say that you paid two fines. Unless you somehow immediately committed another crime, that sounds like a bug. If they're taking your gear, chances are it's stolen property. They're meant to do that.
At some point one has to be rational enough to come to the realization that the whole alert/detection system of this game is very flawed. It takes a bit of time to pick an Adept level lock. I was not detected for actually LEAVING the cell, as I said I was automatically detected right after successfully opening it, yet as I'm picking the lock they're oblivious and don't react at all. Doesn't make sense.
That they are alerted to the fact that you are breaking out of prison makes sense; they have to know to arrest you if they see you, because they have to know that you're not supposed to be out of prison yet and your bounty still stands. As for not detecting you while you're picking the lock, I'm afraid that has to do with the game effectively pausing while you're completing the minigame. That kind of thing is hardly exclusive to Skyrim, however.
Like I said, they only detected the door being picked. Had they spotted me they'd have run right into the cell straight to me. Instead, as I hid in the corner of the cell, they entered as if looking for someone, then turned and spotted me.
All I can think of is that they've programmed the guards patrolling the jail to respond to the door being opened, presumably suggesting that they hear the door opening - or see it open. That they spotted you once there indicates they have a high awareness versus your low sneak skill. Admittedly it might have been easier for the player had the guard not noticed the door was open until he walked past it on his patrol. I'd find either way to be believable, though.
Again, there's no clear indication of the trust level, the game gives mixed signals throughout. I'm trusted to take on a fairly important task of retrieving this Dragonstone he so dearly wants, yet for a "crime" that A) took place OUTSIDE the town walls, B) was not even charged a bounty for by the 3 guards not even sure I'd committed one, I'm rounded up by not 3 but ONE guard, whom now insists the Jarl has deemed me guilty of crimes against Skyrim with a 50 gold bounty.
It's this issue that I'm really having trouble accepting, considering the zeal with which you've complained about it thus far. Are you actually suggesting that you should be able to get away with crimes because you've agreed to go and fetch something? The Jarl didn't pick you to do it because he trusts you implicitly, he's picked you because you're an adventurer who happens to have survived the dragon attack at Helgen and have a vested interest in the situation, and therefore thinks you might have a chance at surviving the attempt. Other than that you're just some yokel who happened along at the right moment, under the right circumstances. As his mage pointed out, the Dragonstone might not even be there (so it can't be that vital), and he even doubts your ability to survive the task. More importantly, while you might well be capable of fulfilling the task, they have no way of knowing whether you'll even bother doing it or just bugger off back to Cyrodill, ne'er to be heard from again. In which case, the Jarl would likely just recruit another passing mercenary to do it for him. Either way, giving you a get-out-of-jail-free card just because you've agreed to take on the task is a bit optimistic; if that worked, every wannabe criminal in Skyrim would be in his throne room, offering to do things for him so they could get one too. Moreover, the lands outside the town walls aren't lawless expanses owned by nobody; they're controlled by the various Jarls who command the holds. Crimes are still crimes, you can still be held accountable for them if you're caught.
The things I've mentioned are key elements in an RPG that shouldn't be so flawed. It's the equivalent of playing a shooter with a very flawed combat system, unacceptable.
It's nothing like playing a shooter with a flawed combat system. A shooter is the combat system. An RPG is about the world, the story, and character progression (in which I include things like combat, as it is intrinsic to the way characters progress in these games) - none of which you've actually experienced properly yet because you're so hung up on the way guards react. Your complaints against Skyrim so far have been levelled seemingly exclusively at the guards and punishments for committing crimes, with a couple of half-mentions of the stealth system not being as helpful as you might like, and the combat against the guards being difficult at early levels. What you're doing here is more akin to dismissing a shooter, its developer, and mocking anybody who plays it, because one of the guns doesn't deliver quite as much damage as you thought it would. Fair enough if you don't think the way guards deal with crimes makes any sense to you. Personally, while I think the system could be improved in a few areas, I don't think it is senseless. I've tried to explain why I think that, in response to your own explanations, and if you still don't think it makes sense that's fine. But to toss the entire game aside and disregard the developers as incapable of making games, because stealing a horse didn't go according to your expectations, is just churlish.
I could just as well say, esp after you've extensively admitted most RPGers accept crap quality in key, critical areas like detection, pursuit, AI interaction/reaction and combat (which wasn't even one of my primary complaints btw), are a big part of the reason SO many makers of RPG games get away with sub par quality in those regards. Basically customers only get as much as they expect, and if all you expect is an engrossing story and environment, a few dynamic lore based creatures, and a fairly tale soundtrack, then that's all you're going to get.
I never said RPGers accept crap quality, I said that gamers in general will overlook flaws in some areas of a game if areas more important to them are of a sufficiently high quality. I also said that improvements to the flaws would be desireable. I have no particular love for the Assassin's Creed series, to use your example; I find the combat to be dull and repetitive, I find the parkour, which consists of holding one button down and then running forwards, to be equally dull, and the storyline meanders around from one seemingly random event to another and is only tied together very loosely by a mediocre plot - and you can multiply this sentiment by at least three for the modern-day aspects. I love the cities themselves, though, Ezio is a likeable character (moreso than Altair who just sucked completely), and stealth is handled well enough. I get why people like the series (although I know you're not a fan of the latest installment), but nothing about it stands out to me, and in my mind the good doesn't outweigh the bad. I don't believe that the developers are incompetant as a result of any of my gripes with it. They do things the way they think are best - some people agree with their methods, others prefer different ways. To me, the latest two Batman games, and the Uncharted series, are much better examples of the third-person action genre than Assassin's Creed could ever be. But there are flaws in both of those that I have to deal with, despite enjoying the products as a whole. If Bethesda have one big flaw that can't be considered subjective, it's more to do with their quality control than anything else. From TES I: Arena to TES V: Skyrim, bugs are too common. And despite Morrowind being one of their better efforts at world-building, I never spent as much time on it as I have other Bethesda games. Unlike the flaws in Skyrim, which are sufficiently small in my mind to be eclipsed by the awesomeness of everything else, I couldn't enjoy the combat enough for everything else to make up for it in Morrowind. But there is no such thing as a perfect game. In every single game you have ever played, you have been forced to overlook at least one gripe, however minor, because you enjoyed something else about it. For some people, the gripes outweigh the pluses. For a lot of people, Skyrim is such a game.
Come now, how many people into these games get SO immersed in them it's like reality to them, yet they accept such obvious flaws without a peep. Reality and practicality are two different things though. We all know these games aren't real, we'd be schizophrenic if we didn't, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have practicality in key features regarding AI interaction/reaction, and crime detection, reporting and pursuit, esp in an RPG game.
Again, flaws there may be, but I don't have any major problems with what you're having major problems with. I have issues with Skyrim, don't get me wrong, but until you weighed into this thread, the crime and punishment system didn't even occur to me as something that was a serious issue.
I'm going to end this and respectfully say I'll agree to disagree. I've spent far too much time repeating myself already, only for you to imply I'm not being clear or somehow nonsensical. Suffice it to say what you see as insignificant are quite significant factors to me, esp when they DIRECTLY affect one of the 3 main types of character models you're given to assign to yourself, mine being stealth. And no, I never once implied I should be allowed to commit ANY crime. I in fact said there should be at least SOME level of offset for a crime as minor as 50 gold bounty when already given a fairly important task specifically for the Jarl, like making you compensate the horse owner as I already stated. That is far from ALLOWING me to commit any crime as you make it sound I was implying.
Odd how when you first waltz right into both Whiterun AND the Jarl's palace, all it takes is a few words about a dragon attack and he trusts you to retrieve the Dragonstone. When at first treated like some stranger invading his home, he's all good with you over a few words. If you can't see that the justice system of this game is a separate entity with no respect for what a significant authority figure has trusted you to do, there's no point arguing it.
I was also easily able to lurk around in the guards barracks with them coming and going and talking to me, acknowledging my going in and out off their sleeping chambers, without them being suspicious at all. Like I said, this bit about as long as you're not SEEN stealing is a load of BS. There's certain things I expect they shouldn't let me do if a complete stranger.
This has only made me further realize that those avidly into RPGs are into them for very shallow reasons. I doubt I'll ever trust Bethesda to competently design such crucial gameplay elements. They've already proven to be far too inept at it to think otherwise. Just the fact that they treat such elements, and even have their fanbase treating them, as insignificant, is an indication of how destructively they've influenced the gaming industry.
Skyrim is amazing.
Pretty much says everything I wanted to say.
While I think it would be a little too good to be true to see a Morrowind or Oblivion port as future DLC, it does make for some interesting possibilities.
That is interesting. I remember in Oblivion this was done too- though most of it was for the purpose of distant LOD looking appropriate to the landscape. Particularly the province of Hammerfell had a great level of detail (down to the peninsula and the isle of Stros M'kai), leading some people to speculate then we might see a DLC in the southern parts of Hammerfell. Again though this was for the purpose of distant LOD much to the disappointment to some over eager people.
If I can find this again I'll post it, but it was a sizable chunk of Tamriel. But it's interesting to see they put this level of detail, putting the isle of Vvardenfell in the Morrowind area and the Imperial Isle in Cyrodiil (even down to the smaller isle that was only accessed in the Mages Guild question line iirc...). At the very least it'll make mods adding new cities outside of Skyrim much easier (ignoring potential problems this could cause with performance...)
That's...fucking awesome actually.
Feel me. Do I feel pretty?
15th September 2004
So I fire this game up, and the action and epicness pretty much start right away. This is a chance from what I encountered with Morrowind and Oblivion, which started slowly.
I decided to play an Orc because I want a strong fighting character. Would have chosen Kajhiit (sp?) since they can see in the dark, but the game says that they are more suited for stealth. I might choose one later.
Killer Kyle;5594332So I fire this game up, and the action and epicness pretty much start right away. This is a chance from what I encountered with Morrowind and Oblivion, which started slowly.
I decided to play an Orc because I want a strong fighting character. Would have chosen Kajhiit (sp?) since they can see in the dark, but the game says that they are more suited for stealth. I might choose one later.
In my opinion the races don't really matter except for the looks. Most race abilities have to be activated and often they just aren't good enough to bother with that. The skill bonus isn't significant either.
So just play whichever race/class combination you like, the game won't be more difficlt because of it.
Race abilities are fine, but the 1 day a thing for it's capabilities or power just isn't that worth it.... The Battlecry for nords, histskin for argonians really useful just 1 day per use is stupid...
I didn't make it!
Aye, it isn't really useful with such a limitation. I've only used the battlecry once and it was "meh", so I haven't even tried any of the others. As for the bit about character stats that Fancy was talking about. I sorta disagree on that.
As a Nord I've found battling enemies that use frost attacks much easier, thanks to the inherent 50% resistance that Nords receive. In my previous but short lived game, I was a Breton and its very much noticeable. Also, the Breton was much better with Magic than my Nord is. It seems to take so much longer to begin recharging, let alone filling up as compared to the Breton. These things aren't major, but they're noticeable.