Starting from Scratch 11 replies

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Pb2Au

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4th October 2004

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#1 11 years ago

On a tangent from the Would You Kill a Puppy discussion, Nemmerle and I were debating the causes of human repulsion to animal cruelty: One of his statements, concerning the results of psychological experiments on desensitization,

It's not blocking relevant to determining whether initial sensitization was caused by biological factors or by conditioning.

Got me thinking: there's no real way we can tell the absolute extent of conditioning in today's society. Now, wouldn't it be interesting to place a large group of babies (about 100, from different cultures) into a large, self-enclosed habitat like the bio-dome, except completely blocked off from seeing the outside. Allow them to start from scratch, no beliefs imprinted in the by parents, grow up with each other, and see what form of social system, what religious or philosophical beliefs, etc. develop. The major problems with this are: -Babies are vulnerable and cannot care for themselves. If they are placed in the habitat after they are weaned onto solid foods, they will likely retain mental images of greater beings which will make a development of belief in 'gods' more likely. -The most obvious one: it's incredibly cruel by the standards of any society. We haven't abandoned children in the West for over 1000 years, and we have never attempted such an involved society. -No artificial habitat on Earth can ever approach perfection. It can never fully imitate the complex ecosystem, with insects, plants, bacteria, animals, and humans, that the Earth presents. Ignoring those issues and for the fun of it assuming this was socially acceptable and the habitat they were placed in was a perfect replica of Earth, what are some of the beliefs you guys think this group of humans would develop as they grew up? You don't have to write a hundred pages, but if you have an interesting idea on religious developments, social developments, communication (writing, speech?), diet (would they become omnivores, or remain vegetarians), and any other topic, please share it.




Liquid fire

I pretend I'm cooler than AzH

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10th June 2006

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#2 11 years ago

Is it spamm when I say...

FOR THE LOVE OF SWEET JESUS ! PUPPIES THIS AND PUPPIES THAT!!!

Now we have 3 threads for this debate

This one

puppies

and one in the pub debating if life has value...all credit the puppy thread...

:lol:




Pb2Au

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#3 11 years ago

It's not the same debate at all: The Puppy thread addresses the overriding instinct of viewing the dog as an 'artificial' consumable or as an inedible, unthreatening creature when money is involved. The Pub is talking about the value of life. I am talking about what you guys postulate would happen in an enclosed environment to humans never subjected to conditioning. Therefore, none of the posts in any of the threads should look even remotely like each other (or at least the posts in this thread and the other two). I'm not interested in the value of life that we have in our society, I'm interested in what would develop if humans never experienced 'our' society.




Liquid fire

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#4 11 years ago
Pb2Au;3538674t's not the same debate: The Puppy thread addresses the overriding instinct of viewing the dog as an 'artificial' consumable or as an inedible, unthreatening creature when money is involved. The Pub is talking about the value of life. I am talking about what you guys postulate would happen in an enclosed environment to humans never subjected to conditioning. Therefore, none of the posts in any of the threads should look even remotely like each other (or at least the posts in this thread and the other two).

Hmph. Very well , you have proven me wrong.




Liquid fire

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#5 11 years ago

Pb2Au;3538655On a tangent from the Would You Kill a Puppy discussion, Nemmerle and I were debating the causes of human repulsion to animal cruelty: One of his statements, concerning the results of psychological experiments on desensitization,

Got me thinking: there's no real way we can tell the absolute extent of conditioning in today's society. Now, wouldn't it be interesting to place a large group of babies (about 100, from different cultures) into a large, self-enclosed habitat like the bio-dome, except completely blocked off from seeing the outside. Allow them to start from scratch, no beliefs imprinted in the by parents, grow up with each other, and see what form of social system, what religious or philosophical beliefs, etc. develop. The major problems with this are: -Babies are vulnerable and cannot care for themselves. If they are placed in the habitat after they are weaned onto solid foods, they will likely retain mental images of greater beings which will make a development of belief in 'gods' more likely. -The most obvious one: it's incredibly cruel by the standards of any society. We haven't abandoned children in the West for over 1000 years, and we have never attempted such an involved society. -No artificial habitat on Earth can ever approach perfection. It can never fully imitate the complex ecosystem, with insects, plants, bacteria, animals, and humans, that the Earth presents. Ignoring those issues and for the fun of it assuming this was socially acceptable and the habitat they were placed in was a perfect replica of Earth, what are some of the beliefs you guys think this group of humans would develop as they grew up? You don't have to write a hundred pages, but if you have an interesting idea on religious developments, social developments, communication (writing, speech?), diet (would they become omnivores, or remain vegetarians), and any other topic, please share it.

Actually if you take an animall besides human . A wild animall or maybe even tame house pet that originally came from the wild. Stick it with these infants in a large closed off forest area. I think that you may be suprised of their survivall. Animalls have been known to raise humans like animalls but in the end their is little to no hope at all for these abnormall humans to blend or develop into propper civilized beings.

Your experiment could work I theorize if you had a tame wolf who was used to humans and loyal to humans . The wolf would actually tend to the babbies. Well atleast their is a debate. I dont ignore the possiblity of the wolf eating the infants but their has been cases in history where dogs and other such animalls keept infants alive when they were in danger. Feed them , noursihed them...




Pb2Au

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#6 11 years ago

brian, just ignore all the problems and impossibilities with this experiment. I realize that babies are incredibly vulnerable, I realize it's nearly impossible to get an artificial earth habitat. But as I said, just for the fun of it, ignore all flaws and think about what would happen if this experiment was actually performed.




Liquid fire

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#7 11 years ago
Pb2Au;3538720brian, just ignore all the problems and impossibilities with this experiment. I realize that babies are incredibly vulnerable, I realize it's nearly impossible to get an artificial earth habitat. But as I said, just for the fun of it, ignore all flaws and think about what would happen if this experiment was actually performed.

Well if human beings Could start off in nature they would not be much of a fighter. A baby wolf or bear would easily kill a baby human. So there is the start. The infant would have to learn to eat simple things at 1st like bugs and plant life. The infant would have to remain hidden to survive. The problem is that even if the baby could roam freely at the beginning of its life with a intellect for indepedent survival it would be crawling on ground level. The bears and wolves would easily munch the little guy up.

However the interesting survival instinct can be applied here along with the intllect that does not exist nor may it ever exist. The infant could roll or scent itself so that it may be hidden or undesired to be attacked by other animalls on the grounds surface. Later on the infant would grow and start to make weapons, would probabally learn to use the trees for survivall like monkeys and apes. Would continue to eat mostly plant life like bannas and fruits like monkeys.

Monkeys would most likely protect the ground level infants. However it is not for certain. It is an intersting concept when an intellect and mobility is suggested for independent survivall of human infants in nature.




Lukeh

Yay for cotton mouth!

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10th March 2006

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#8 11 years ago

What have I done? My puppies are making things very difficult. :3

That would be cool about the babies though. I have a feeling they would somehow become murderous pretty quickly though. I can see some 13 year old evil sons of bitches killing eachother in the biodome. Reminds me somewhat of that movie about the guy whos life they turned into a tv show.




TurdFerguson

i will marry her

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13th February 2007

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#9 11 years ago

here's what i think would happen: a hierarchy would probly evolve. a languasge would probly devlop but would consist of just a few words. i don't think that the group would last long because of survival of the fittest theory. i don't think they would have a religion so to speak because they would be clueless to what's going on. i also think there would be a lot of sex. just like dolphins. done.




Sh0wdowN

Skeptic Extraordinaire.

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31st December 2003

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#10 11 years ago

I believe it would equate to a similar social regime as the one primates currently employ. Perhaps even developing to tribes (and thus competetive tribes). As for religion, I believe similar beliefs such as a 'sun God' would be created, and language would be of the same level as primates'.

I do not see such an experiment as reprehensible, to be perfectly honest, as it would be one of the best studies in order to determine essential information regarding the human mindset. Sacrifice for science. The problem with the experiment, though, is that the babies will have to be self-taught in the art of survival. And due to our very nature, that is a feat we cannot produce as infants; thus making the experiment virtually impossible without our influence which could compromise exact results.




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