The sense of society 12 replies

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Draco_2k

A spark of freedom

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18th August 2005

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#1 12 years ago

Well, just found this around somewhere and I was wondering, um, if anyone could drop a line or two of comment on it... It just seems to be quite a subject to discuss. So, okay...

The experiment:

Take, say, 5 monkeys, put them into the cage, lock it down. Now take a pile of bananas - tie `em to the cage ceiling - plus a pump and a hydrant, aim for the cage.

Sooner or later, a monkey will attempt to snatch the fruits - as soon as it does, turn on the pump, bathing ALL of the monkeys. Should another one attempt to, repeat the procedure. But the next one will be dragged off by the whole pack, not willing to take another cold shower.

TURN OFF THE WATER

Replace one of the monkeys with the one from another cage. Sooner or later it will attempt to have a snack on the fruits, but the others simply won't let it to. Now replace one more monkey - the cycle continues, now with the first one trying to hold it off. Repeat the procedure until all 5 monkeys are replaced.

The outcome: a cage of 5 monkeys, not restricted from the food, yet restraining each other from getting it.

Not anything familiar, no?.. [COLOR=Black] [/COLOR][COLOR=DarkSlateGray]Once again, any comments appreciated.[/COLOR]




KoЯsakoff

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7th November 2003

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#2 12 years ago

I guess the monkeys will look at each other trying to understand why one can do it and the other not. But sooner or later they will go for the fruit.




Admiral Donutz VIP Member

Wanna go Double Dutch?

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9th December 2003

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#3 12 years ago

Well society is all about doing what other say you can and can not do. Sooner or later somebody will break the custome however for better or worse. Same with the monkeys, eventually one might give it a try. It is nothing more then natural behaviour. If you would do this experiment with humans in a slightly different form the result would be the same.

This also reminds me of that experiment were a person would partipate in an experiment and while in a sealed of room with a scientist was instructed to press a button, this would trigger somebody "on the other side" (the room next door) to get an electric shock. With every press the shocks would get worse. The doctor would simply say "continue on with the experiment" while the victem on the other end would tell how much it hurted eventually asking to stop it and begging for mercy untill the fatal shock came.

Ofcourse it was all fake and the person on the receiving end wouldn't actualy get the shocks, it was to see when somebody would stop obeying orders/commands. Some people refuses to continue on with the experiment while a large part took it very close or all to the end. Perhaps somebody knows of a link that explains it better then I just did? It was very intresting though.




Draco_2k

A spark of freedom

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#4 12 years ago

Quite optimistic...

2 KoЯsakoff:

Naturally. Doubtfully that all of them though - the history suggests that a single one may fight it's way through, with others joining the feast later. IMHO.

2 Großadmiral Dönitz:

Law & Order.

It's hard to control one's deeds on the regular basis, especially with orders being progressively stupid... But again, the history (up to nowadays) suggests that not at all impossible. Interesting experiment indeed.

Oh, and thanks for your replies :D .




Nemmerle Forum Mod

Voice of joy and sunshine

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#5 12 years ago
Draco_2kNot anything familiar, no?

The experiment works on the assumption that because the other monkeys restrain the new monkey from getting the food it will do the same to other monkeys in its turn. While there is a well documented history of social learning theory. And in specific Observational Learning, this is by no means a certain conclusion. The new monkey may never acquire a fear of eating the food, or may observe the fear in the other monkeys and never try to reach the food itself, or it may acquire a fear of the consequences from the other monkeys rather than the food itself and thus not attempt to stop the new monkeys, which would eventually outnumber the old monkeys, from getting the food. On a related note Mineka et al in 1984 found that you could make a monkey afraid of snakes simply by having it observe another monkey being afraid of snakes.




the1chaos VIP Member

I pretend to do stuff.

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16th January 2004

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#6 12 years ago

i've heard of this before. the monkeys would beat up the new monkey if it were to try to grab the banana's out of fear to get hosed. therefor the monkey who got beat up would not try it again, out of fear to get beat up, and it would join in on beating up new monkey #2, who tried to get the banana's also. or something like that.




Draco_2k

A spark of freedom

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#7 12 years ago
Originally posted by Nemmerle: The new monkey may never acquire a fear of eating the food, or may observe the fear in the other monkeys and never try to reach the food itself, or it may acquire a fear of the consequences from the other monkeys rather than the food itself and thus not attempt to stop the new monkeys, which would eventually outnumber the old monkeys, from getting the food.

Actually, the point of the whole story (well, as I see it) is that the chance of some Hero monkey breaking the vicious circle is infinitesimal - not being totally imposible though. The very society preventing itself from reaching certain goods - it works 99/100.

The flaws in the natural system...




Tony883

Your local enigma

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8th September 2005

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#8 12 years ago

That's not the whole experiment; I've studied this before.

You remove one monkey and replace it with a monkey that knows nothing of the ice water; it goes for the bannana and the other monkeys stop it.

You replace one of the origanal monkeys again with another monkey that doesn't know about the ice water; it goes for the bannana and the other monkeys stop it.

The cycle goes until there are no monkeys are left that have experienced the ice-water but the newer monkeys will still stop a brand new monkey going for the bannana even though they do not know why.

It's based on how society see's things and their perceptions based on experience and their personal experience; it's supposed to reflect on the "norms" of society. Things are just the way things are for a reason that we don't really know about- why shouldn't you kill somebody else? Why are you not allowed to run around naked in the streets? Why are you supposed to respect your elders? etc.




KoЯsakoff

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#9 12 years ago
NemmerleOn a related note Mineka et al in 1984 found that you could make a monkey afraid of snakes simply by having it observe another monkey being afraid of snakes.

Isn't that the same with humans? Let's say that you were to have a "frikandel" (dutch fast food snack), and I would tell you what is in it, you probably wouldn't eat it. Now one of your mates wants to try it, you tell him the same I told you, he (probably) wouldn't touch it.

(I couldn't make up a better example at 0.12, please excuse me for that).




Tony883

Your local enigma

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#10 12 years ago
KoЯsakoffIsn't that the same with humans? Let's say that you were to have a "frikandel" (dutch fast food snack), and I would tell you what is in it, you probably wouldn't eat it. Now one of your mates wants to try it, you tell him the same I told you, he (probably) wouldn't touch it. (I couldn't make up a better example at 0.12, please excuse me for that).

Yup, its the same principal.




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