Why the push for legalization of Marijuana? 21 replies

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random_soldier1337

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#1 2 years ago

It just seems like one of those things like smoking or drinking. What's the big deal if somebody doesn't get to blaze it?




Ryojin

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#2 2 years ago

Because there's pretty much no real reason for it to be illegal in the first place, and there is certainly no reason for it to be in the same class of drug as things like heroin here in the US. It is pretty much harmless next to heroin. Hell, it is probably healthier than drinking alcohol.

Also, mah freedum!


Disclaimer: Personal opinions still not endorsed by Ryojin.



Nemmerle Forum Mod

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#3 2 years ago

Well, banning alcohol didn't exactly go well either. Small pleasures may not be significant in the context of a life filled with small pleasures, when the base-line of happiness for an individual is high, but I'm not sure how many lives that describes and certainly if you remove all small pleasures it generates a life that isn't worth living.

Now add to that the violence inherent in the application of law and you're pulling yourself into conflict with people, by and large, because you take issue with the form of happiness they choose to pursue. They're probably not going to back down over that unless you can give them a really good reason - (Which, "It's about the same as coffee, what's the big?" Isn't) - and thus... there's this big problem where your and their desires are in conflict and you've chosen to pursue the issue by force of arms.




random_soldier1337

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#4 2 years ago

"Ryojin"Because there's pretty much no real reason for it to be illegal in the first place, and there is certainly no reason for it to be in the same class of drug as things like heroin here in the US. It is pretty much harmless next to heroin. Hell, it is probably healthier than drinking alcohol.

Also, mah freedum![/quote]

But that's the point. How many of the protesters care about the matter of the principle? How many of them are not just looking to make it easier to get their fix?

[quote="Nemmerle"]Well, banning alcohol didn't exactly go well either. Small pleasures may not be significant in the context of a life filled with small pleasures, when the base-line of happiness for an individual is high, but I'm not sure how many lives that describes and certainly if you remove all small pleasures it generates a life that isn't worth living.

Now add to that the violence inherent in the application of law and you're pulling yourself into conflict with people, by and large, because you take issue with the form of happiness they choose to pursue. They're probably not going to back down over that unless you can give them a really good reason - (Which, "It's about the same as coffee, what's the big?" Isn't) - and thus... there's this big problem where your and their desires are in conflict and you've chosen to pursue the issue by force of arms.

I don't know man. Many big name countries like mine and maybe in the west have people who don't know where and when to stop having their small pleasures. It wasn't too long ago most people had to work all day just to see the next. IMO, people shouldn't get hung up on something like this. At least until something crazy happens like we cure death or make a super duper storybook utopia/fairy tale land.

And if we are to pursue this, how do we ensure people know the limit they should take their small pleasures to?

Also I agree with your view on violence. Would it be better i.e. would conflict b/w people and govt., be avoided if the govt., offered free rehab and counseling?




Mr. Matt VIP Member

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#5 2 years ago

Focussing on the freedom and 'let's get stoned legally' arguments is disingenuous, in a world where the majority of healthcare practitioners are desperately trying to get the government to listen to decades of empirical evidence, and the positive examples provided to us from countries that have decriminalised/legalised some/most drugs.

The frequency with which stories like this one arise - where leading experts (and bodies of experts) are calling on the government to end the failed 'War on Drugs' because of the monumentally detrimental effect it has had on people's lives, the police force, the prison system, crime rates, the health service, and national coffers - suggests to me that drugs are being treated as a criminal issue not because of any rational reason, but because of some political fears. Nearly every healthcare practitioner believes that drug use should be treated as a medical, not a criminal, issue.

And it's not just doctors and researchers. It's legal experts, civil rights campaigners, social workers and charity workers who actually work with drug addicts and see the harmful effects first-hand, and even the police. That's right, law makers and law enforcement officers are at odds on drug policy, with some regional forces even turning a blind eye to the more harmless drugs like marijuana.

Politicians are flying in the face of all experts and all evidence purely and entirely for the sake of their careers; because none of them wants to be featured in a Daily Mail "THIS POLITICIAN SUPPORTS DRUGS IN OUR SCHOOLS - WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" shock piece. And while all this utter, destructive nonsense is going on, they are banning so-called "legal highs" too, because something like ten people have died as a result of taking them. The amusing/saddening thing is, if it weren't for current government drug policies, these "alternative drugs" wouldn't exist, and actual drugs would be regulated, their dosage described and their contents assured as being as safe as possible, rather than being cut with detergent, broken glass, and who-knows what else.

And as the crime rate plummeted and police resources were freed up to be more effective at keeping people safe, at the same time revenues raised from legalised drugs could be pumped back into the health system to help people who do misuse substances, while simultaneously saving time and money from treating people who are fatally ill or dying from taking dangerous doses and impure drugs. It is the most literal no-brainer that there has ever been.

If continuing on this myopic path wasn't destroying lives and overburdening public services, to say nothing of the billions upon billions of [insert currency here] it provides to violent criminals and organised crime in the process, then I probably wouldn't care.

Unfortunately, it is doing all of those things, and it absolutely has to change.

All the while, cigarettes and alcohol - far more destructive than any of the other drugs combined - continue to be freely served at your local shop.




Nemmerle Forum Mod

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#6 2 years ago

"random_soldier1337"I don't know man. Many big name countries like mine and maybe in the west have people who don't know where and when to stop having their small pleasures. It wasn't too long ago most people had to work all day just to see the next. IMO, people shouldn't get hung up on something like this. At least until something crazy happens like we cure death or make a super duper storybook utopia/fairy tale land.

And if we are to pursue this, how do we ensure people know the limit they should take their small pleasures to?

Also I agree with your view on violence. Would it be better i.e. would conflict b/w people and govt., be avoided if the govt., offered free rehab and counseling?

A few people are always going to be unable to handle the things that they choose to indulge in. That is not something specific to drugs.

As for what most people must do in order to survive, I would point out that in functional terms most people have not become significantly more wealthy than they ever were. Retiring before you reach national retirement age, is still a pipe dream for most people. They will work until their bodies are too worn out to draw any pleasure from for themselves and then they will spend the remaining 10 and 15 years of their lives sitting in a flat waiting to die on whatever meagre pittance they've been able to draw out for that time. Maybe they work in a restaurant or a call centre now, rather than a field, but it offers them no greater hope of freedom than it ever did and when they go to bed at night the only surety they have is when they wake up in the morning they will be doing the same thing over again.

There is not a lot of intellectually and psychologically fulfilling work out there for people, and most of what is out there most people are ill suited for. The person who works in a restaurant is probably never going to go off and become a physicist, and probably their experience with the education system has formed them into such a person that they would not care to do so anyway. The taxi driver is probably never going to go off and become a famous musician, most people do not know how to play instruments and even if they did we simply do not need that many musicians.

So people take comfort in the things that present an escape from their actual existence. TV, alcohol, smoking, and yes drugs. The exact escape route varies from person to person. They value those things, quite highly, because of what it gives them that the rest of their lives does not. If you've felt, in some manner, bad; bored, sad, angry, aimless; for your entire life why would you not value the thing that provides you an escape from that as the most valuable thing in your life?

It is for a similar reason that offering free rehabilitation and counselling to people I do not think would make much difference. What are you going to rehabilitate them into? The entire problem to start off with was that society did not have any real place for them beyond basic drudge work. They were born largely excess to requirements, have lived a life that has meant that the aggregate of their pleasures does not align with those few roles that might have the potential to be psychologically fulfilling and which their skills and history make them extremely ill suited to in any case, and rehabilitation and counselling are not going to change that.

You talk about 'we,' us, doing things like curing death and making a utopian land. But, most people are irrelevant to any efforts in that direction. They are not part of the creation of the future in any personally meaningful sense. That story is not their story in any greater sense than the story of the creation of the pyramids was the story of slaves.

Now people might not cache it out in those terms, and it is true that some drugs are addictive on a chemical level, but that's the deal they're being offered. Give up your drugs. Go back to a hopeless life of unemployment, or McDonalds working, or whatever other layer of the shit you've been shuffled into.

Some people don't much care for that deal and become addicts to escape some pain that their life gives them. Some people use drugs recreationally, to add more to their lives. It varies. The constant is that making these sorts of drugs illegal has created this conflict that is A) Unlikely to move someone closer to a desirable path through society and B) Created a large number of harmful secondary effects. And the vast majority of people who deal with addicts directly seem in agreement that this is not a practical approach to the significant personal and social problems that seem to drive their use.




Superfluous Curmudgeon VIP Member

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#7 2 years ago

You know, some people would argue that porn is both very addictive and very harmful. Not sure where I stand on that topic, but I think it stands as an example of something that in most countries, is legal, and isn't tearing countries down. At least, not directly. So what's the big deal? Why don't we just ban it, just in case? What's the big deal? Aside from the fact that the criminalization of it would effectively land more than half the male population in jail, I'd argue that whether it's good or bad is more of a circumstantial and personal thing.

Moving to the issue of drugs, I can think of more reasons do criminalize porn than drugs. Mr. Matt and Nemmerle hammered the big issues out already, but let me present a couple more reasons to decriminalize drugs.

Health. It turns out certain illegal drugs can do a world of good for someone. A huge deal of our health comes from our psychological state, and illegal drugs can do for a person what would take huge amounts of time, discipline, and training, that just aren't things most people have the luxury in today's world. Marijuana, I hear, can do wonders in terms of relieving stress. Psychedelics can act like reset buttons that force a person to reset their perspective on life. I've never tried any of these drugs and am far from an expert, but I think drugs have the potential to do at least as much good as harm, if not more. The key is education and a base life that is worth living. The more detrimental and dangerous drugs should continue to be regulated as much as necessary to keep people's health in order, but it's still much more of a health than a criminal issue.

Money. Colorado and other states have made a killing off marijuana taxes. 

Take a look at this guy's videos: About as close as you can get to "hands-on" without being "hands-on": https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn8V3KNSgDr1Dai77_y8JrQ




random_soldier1337

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#8 2 years ago

"Nemmerle" You talk about 'we,' us, doing things like curing death and making a utopian land. But, most people are irrelevant to any efforts in that direction. They are not part of the creation of the future in any personally meaningful sense. That story is not their story in any greater sense than the story of the creation of the pyramids was the story of slaves.[/quote]

Not with that attitude, especially in these times. You keep telling that to everybody and nobody's going to want to bother even if there might be some hope.

[quote="Superfluous Curmudgeon "]Health. It turns out certain illegal drugs can do a world of good for someone. A huge deal of our health comes from our psychological state, and illegal drugs can do for a person what would take huge amounts of time, discipline, and training, that just aren't things most people have the luxury in today's world. Marijuana, I hear, can do wonders in terms of relieving stress. Psychedelics can act like reset buttons that force a person to reset their perspective on life. I've never tried any of these drugs and am far from an expert, but I think drugs have the potential to do at least as much good as harm, if not more.

Well if you are gonna add that, I have to question it with what do these people do if they can't get these drugs?




Nemmerle Forum Mod

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#9 2 years ago
"random_soldier1337" Not with that attitude, especially in these times. You keep telling that to everybody and nobody's going to want to bother even if there might be some hope.

I doubt very much someone who finds that maths bores the crap out of them is going to become a fantastic mathematician for the prospect of a utopian future some hundred plus years down the line, regardless of how much smoke you blow up their arse about how precious they are. It might get you a couple of afternoons spent in front of a text book at the outside, but they'd soon remember that this stuff bores and frustrates them. By similar measure I doubt that someone who really enjoys maths is going to quit their job and fall into existential despair because you tell them that people who are working in fast food joints aren't getting a say in the shape the world takes.

Now you wouldn't say it to most people, because what would the point be? Telling a failure that they're a failure won't make them a success, and it seems pointless to tell the successes that they're failures. Maybe you'd even go out of your way not to have certain conversations around children or people who are... emotionally fragile. There are many things that we avoid saying around children because their life doesn't yet have much momentum behind it, after all. -- But all of that has more to do with the utility you expect in return for the act of stating something rather than the truth of the thing being stated.




random_soldier1337

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#10 2 years ago

First, I'm confused. Is the guy who enjoys maths working at McD's or being maths professor or something? Also what/who are you counting as 'successes'?