Which jedi knight games do you own -1 reply

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fett321

Looking for sanity

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3rd March 2006

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#11 12 years ago

I own all the JK games, including the Mysteries of the Sith expansion pack. I liked Dark Forces, but it is a bit difficult to play today on my system. Too fast. That was my introduction to Star Wars FP gaming, and I have been addicted ever since.




Fyurii

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4th August 2006

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#12 12 years ago

Kouen;3259048 JK2 was let down by major technical and gameplay faults, as well as the fact that the engine used should never have been coded, never mind used for actual games. It wasn't a bad effort, though - the intentions were right, but the major flaw was the developer's relative stupidity and the fact they had to be cheapskates and liscense an inferior game engine, meaning that once they started using Q3, then it was actually impossible for JK2 to be a good "Jedi 'em up" game.

JK3 just blowed in every aspect. Raven Software cut far too many corners, broke almost every rule of games development, and to top it off - they, once again, used the worst game engine available just to save a few dollars. Storyline sucked, saber system sucks even harder, mod support is non-user-friendly to say the least, the character designs are horrible, the voice acting is more wooden than my desk, and the level design was laughable. Some of the missions made illogical attempts to draw out the game, the force powers might as well have not been there at all, and the guns shouldn't have been there at all - they were so terrible, they needed ripping out and replacing with decent weapons.

So, never mind that so many other successful games used the Quake3 engine?

What was so bad about the Q3 engine for JK games? Surely they would have selected a suitable engine for the game. The only other succesful game engine availabe was the Unreal engine. Maybe it depended on which one was actually made available to use.

if you disliked the games so much, why did you keep them?

As for Dark Forces - what Inyri said.

I have them all, barring DF, and really liked them.




freakinweirdo

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29th August 2006

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#13 12 years ago

someone please move this thread to jedi knight III general discussion




Mikouen VIP Member

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#14 12 years ago

FyuriiSo, never mind that so many other successful games used the Quake3 engine?[/quote]Hmm, let's see shall we? Elite Force and Jedi Knight had the franchise thing going for them - they sold primarily because they are Star Wars/Star Trek; future players who weren't attracted by the franchise and/or concept were likely drawn in by the large multiplayer communities.

Soldier of Fortune was actually ahead of many FPS of it's generation, simply because there were no strong contenders at the time - also, it was developed by Raven Software, and they already had the liscense to use Q3; my guess is that they used Q3 for it to save money and time.

The Medal of Honor games only used Q3 as a codebase; much of the engine for those was coded from scratch.

Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory used the Q3 engine as it was actually a conceptual trial run for a new franchise (the Enemy Territory franchise, obviously). Since it was a collaborative project between id Software and Splash Damage, that explains exactly why Q3 engine was used - after all, if you're testing out a whole new metagame, you don't want to be spending all the time and money to create a new engine for a trial run which might fall flat.

FyuriiWhat was so bad about the Q3 engine for JK games? Surely they would have selected a suitable engine for the game.[/quote]The Q3 engine wasn't bad at all when it was first developed, but remember that JK2 and JKA were made at a later date, when plenty of superior alternatives were available, Unreal V1 being one of them (and definitely the better one).

Also bear in mind that Raven Software did the development, and judging from their track record, they tend to value managing economics over creating good games.

[quote=Fyurii]The only other succesful game engine availabe was the Unreal engine.Maybe it depended on which one was actually made available to use.

In the time between 1999 (when Q3 engine was completed) and 2002 (release of JK2), many superior engines were created. The two most notable ones (read: "the only ones mainstream gamers are likely to have heard of") are Lithtech 1.5: Talon and Dark Engine, which were used for the popular titles Alien vs. Predator 2 and Thief: The Dark Project, respectively. And again, as you say, Unreal V1 was also available.

They weren't significantly more expensive to liscense than Q3, either, so basically, Raven Software chickened out of making high-quality games just to save a bit of loose change. A little thing we call "penny-pinching" where I live.

[quote=Fyurii]if you disliked the games so much, why did you keep them?

Would you throw away games you paid for?

Either way, it was only with Jedi Academy that the series truly hit rock bottom. Jedi Outcast, although heavily flawed, was (and still is) a pleasant enough gaming experience in singleplayer. DF and DF2:JK still hold most, if not all, of their old magic. Well, provided you play them on an older system, or you'll find yourself wishing they still held their old *framerate*...


I don't know how, and I don't know why, but this is totally Sheep's fault.



Fyurii

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#15 12 years ago

My point was that the Quake3 and Unreal engines were most widely used. The Lith-tech engine wasn't as widely used (I think Monolith wouldn't let anyone else).

Deus Ex + Invisible war both used Unreal engine. Republic Commando - Unreal engine. Thief: Deadly Shadows - Unreal engine (their own engine only lasted two games)

MoH games, ST:EF 1+2, SoF 1+2, as you said, also used the Quake3 engine. They may have tweaked and improved it for their games, but it was still the Quake3 engine.

Both these engines were hugely more successful, and pretty well dominated the market until the Doom3 and Source engines were finally released in their respective games.

It's what the Devs do with the engine that matters, yes that is true. But the engine used should be one that the Devs are more familiar with, than using a completely different one to what they have previously used, or gamers could be given a complete pile of poo.

An example of the above is Vampire: Bloodlines - Source engine, but a shitty + terrible buggy game that caused Troika to go under.

You never said why the Quake3 engine was bad for JK2 + JK3.

I doubt the Lith-tech engine could have handled it as well as the Quake3 engine did, let alone looked as good. The Lith-tech engine didn't come across as being able to be improved much more beyond AvP2. The Unreal engine could have, but they used Quake3.

From the way you complained about the game, it just had to question why you kept them. I bought Daikatana, but got rid of it a few days later. Just because you paid for a game, doesn't mean you have to keep it if you don't like it.




Mikouen VIP Member

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#16 12 years ago

FyuriiMy point was that the Quake3 and Unreal engines were most widely used.[/quote]Developers shouldn't use what's common, they should use the engine that allows them to make their game fulfill it's potential. Similarly, they shouldn't just pick from the successful engines - they should pick the engine which allows them to make the game the way it should be made.

FyuriiThe Lith-tech engine wasn't as widely used (I think Monolith wouldn't let anyone else).[/quote]It was available for liscensing, although that fact wasn't widespread information outside of the industry.

Fyurii MoH games, ST:EF 1+2, SoF 1+2, as you said, also used the Quake3 engine. They may have tweaked and improved it for their games, but it was still the Quake3 engine.[/quote]I never did dispute that point, however there is a large difference between using an engine and using it merely as a codebase.

As I said, MoH only used Q3 as a codebase; only minimal amounts of Q3's code were used, and most of the engine was recoded from the ground up.

SoF2 wasn't so shabby, but again, the engine wasn't "tweaked and improved" - it was heavily modified.

FyuriiBoth these engines were hugely more successful, and pretty well dominated the market until the Doom3 and Source engines were finally released in their respective games.[/quote]True, they were the major players. However, just because Q3 was one of the major players, doesn't mean it earned that position by being a superior game engine.

One possible reason could be the brand name. We all know games developers have a tendency to see dollar signs. Another potential reason could be that it was the cheapest engine to liscense. Who can say?

From what's been released, however, the other engines have all given off admirable shows of power, and have shown that they can hold their own very well against engines twice as powerful as Q3.

Also, the materials used to hype Q3 engine (the pre-release and tech demo materials) weren't as impressive as the pre-release materials for rival engines. Q3 definitely outranked everything when it came to publicity, though...

Fyurii It's what the Devs do with the engine that matters, yes that is true.[/quote]That's actually quite incorrect. Developers are limited as to what can and can't be done by the engine's limitations. If they're using a flexible engine, they can do great things. If they're using a restrictive engine, then they're completely shafted.

FyuriiBut the engine used should be one that the Devs are more familiar with, than using a completely different one to what they have previously used, or gamers could be given a complete pile of poo.

It's not a case of familiarity at all. Engines are pretty much like cars. They operate in similar ways, with the only real difference being that each one has it's own set of unique attributes.

[quote=Fyurii]I doubt the Lith-tech engine could have handled it as well as the Quake3 engine did, let alone looked as good. The Lith-tech engine didn't come across as being able to be improved much more beyond AvP2.

Lithtech could have far outstripped the Q3 engine on any of the projects listed as being created using the Q3 engine, but people never gave it a chance. Why Q3 engine was chosen for such a wide number of projects, we'll never know, but between Lithtech 1.5 and Q3, well... using the games as an example, Lithtech proved itself to be more powerful.

[quote=Fyurii]An example of the above is Vampire: Bloodlines - Source engine, but a shitty + terrible buggy game that caused Troika to go under.

Yes, well, my comparisons of which engines rank where on the list doesn't count on the intervention of typical human incompetence. It is possible to break an engine completely if you don't know exactly what you're doing, although a little trial and error should have circumvented that. So, my theory is that Troika's programmers screwed up, and they didn't have time to fix it because the folks in marketing had given them a strict deadline and publicly launched a release date.

That's also a pretty good example as to why good developers never give release dates that are anything more than relative, but that's a whole other topic.

[quote=Fyurii] You never said why the Quake3 engine was bad for JK2 + JK3.

Actually, I did.

However, if you want a few more reasons, here are some factors to research:

- Adaptability, or should I say, lack of it. - The graphical capabilities of the engine are very much sub-par. - Fragile netcode. - Actual processing code and inefficient use of system resources. - Compatibility issues with optimized and customised systems.

I'm not going to give a major breakdown of them, because this is a forum, not a piece of university coursework.

Looking at the modifications made to the Q3-JK variants, it seem to me that Raven didn't address the primary issues with the engine, and if anything manufactured more problems.

[quote=Fyurii]The Unreal engine could have, but they used Quake3.

...and their games suffered because of that choice. Can you really say that the games would have been worse if they were made on UnrealV1 or UnrealV2?

[quote=Fyurii] From the way you complained about the game, it just had to question why you kept them. I bought Daikatana, but got rid of it a few days later. Just because you paid for a game, doesn't mean you have to keep it if you don't like it.

True, it doesn't mean I have to keep it, but I very rarely throw things away, if I can help it. Waste not, want not, or something like that.

Besides, I can always use the CDs as coasters. ;)


I don't know how, and I don't know why, but this is totally Sheep's fault.



Fyurii

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#17 12 years ago
Kouen;3262130Besides, I can always use the CDs as coasters. ;)

Hey, you too? Small world!:)

At the end of the day, one of the primary reasons Quake3 and Unreal engines were so popular (and still are in the case of the Unreal engine) is because they look good, aswell as play well.

My system is custom made, and I didn't have any problems like the ones you listed. Do you know of others who have had these problems? (just curious, not getting at you. PM me on this part. )

No matter how much a game engine is modified, it is still the same game engine. You can tell just by looking at it, and the game folders themselves.

Still, virtually no game engine is without its flaws. Unfortunately.

Well, enough of this I think, this is hardly the thread for us to be debating the use of the Q3 engine. What say we let it get back on topic?:deal:




Guest

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#18 12 years ago

I HAVE ALL 4 sadly, the 2 latest ones I own some how died one day due to their age,so who is coming to the funeral?I can picture myself using warcraft 2as a coaster.




Mikouen VIP Member

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#19 12 years ago
FyuriiWhat say we let it get back on topic?

Agreed.

Although admittedly the Q3 engine looks a lot more attractive to the casual gamers rather than those with development experience, since the gamers tend to have "gamer instincts" in lieu of "professional instincts", and so the gamer's instincts aren't so easily offended when corners are cut.


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fizzypop

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#20 12 years ago

I own Jedi Academy and I would like to get Jedi Outcast but it's not that easy.:(




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